Dog Brothers Public Forum
DBMA Martial Arts Forum => Martial Arts Topics => Topic started by: Earl Abella on December 02, 2003, 10:16:09 AM
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hey guys...
i got the post below from the sacramento doce pares message board ( http://www.b2g3.com/boards/board.cgi?&user=docepares ). i was hoping someone familiar with Balintawak history can shed some light on this. i personally train under doce pares, and i know GM Atillo is a good friend of the Canetes. hoping someone out there can share more info on this. thanks!
--Earl Abella
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?Balintawak was established in 1952 not only by
Anciong Bacon, Delfin Lopez, and Inting Atillo. There
were also others who were involved in its
establishment.?
Yes, there were others. But, if you asked those others
(Delfin Lopez, Jesus Cui, Timor Maranga and Vincente
Atillo), they would all approvingly say that Venancio
Bacon was the best among them. If it wasn?t for Mr.
Bacon, there wouldn?t be a Balintawak club at all.
?Ising Atillo claims to be an original member of that
organization as well when it was first established, he
was the youngest member at the age of 14. Velez,
Villasin, and Buot became members much later.?
What Mr. Atillo fails to mention is that Teofilo
Velez, Ted Buot and Jose Villasin were among Venancio
Bacon?s recognized prodigies, among a few others, to
include the latest prodigy, Bobby Tabimina. Mr. Atillo
was never among in this list of notables.
?When Balintawak was first established it was
organized by several people, and most original members
were not students of Anciong Bacon therefore
Balintawak can not be claimed by Anciong Bacon and his
students alone.?
Others who belonged to the first Balintawak club were
fighters who already had a style of their own, namely
Timor Maranga, Jesus Cui, Vincente Atillo, Delfin
Lopez, and others. Balintawak was the name of the
street in which the original members practiced in
1953. They practiced in the back of Mr. Baculi?s shop
on Balintawak Street in Colon. Mr. Baculi was one of
Venancio Bacon?s students. If Mr. Bacon didn?t have a
student named Mr. Baculi who offered his place on
Balintawak Street for practice, there wouldn?t be a
Balintawak Club.
?In 1975 the original Balintawak was seperated into 5
different groups and each claims to be the best and
the original, and Ising Atillo is one of them.
Balintawak is only a name but the fighting system
itself originated from Lorenzo "Ensong" Saavedra.?
1). Balintawak Original (headed by Ted Buot, then
Arturo Sanchez, both are now in Michigan. This was
Venancio Bacon?s original club)
2). Tres Personas (Timor Maranga?s club, now called
Combat Eskrima Maranga, headed by Mr. Maranga?s son)
3). Villasin Balintawak (Jose Villasin?s club, now
headed by his son)
4). TeoVel?s Balintawak (Teofilo Velez? club, now
headed by his son)
5). Atillo Balintawak
On the contrary, all Balintawak clubs, with the
exception of the latter, are very closely related.
They all had a reunion this year, sponsored by Arnulfo
(also one of Venancio Bacon?s prodigies) Mongcal?s
students from Germany, in Cebu City. Teovel's
Balintawak, Villasin, Combat Eskrima Maranga, and a
few from Balintawak Original were present.
Venancio Bacon was Lorenzo Saavedra?s prodigy. Mr.
Saavedra was adept with many styles within Eskrima.
Venancio Bacon mastered the Corto Linear, which
Balintawak would later perfect following Mr. Bacon?s
philosophy of power and economy.
?Many ask why Ising Atillo claims to be Balintawak if
he claims to follow Doring Saavedra's style. The
answer is: Don't fuss over it, it's only a name. What
is more important to us the effectiveness of the art.
Call it what you want, it won't change the art.?
This is a good question, but it?s clear why Atillo
Balintawak doesn?t want to answer it. If Teodoro "Doring"
Saavedra died during World War II, and Balintawak was
established in 1953, taking the street name of the
place where they practiced, whose owner was Venancio
Bacon?s student, then it is quite suspect why he chose
to name his art Balintawak.
?Note that all other styles also customized Balintawak
in their own way. Although the main foundation of all
other Balintawak styles are the same, they are all
different in some ways.?
The difference is that all other styles who have
customized and have chosen to use the name Balintawak,
still duly credit Venancio Bacon for their simple,
powerful, yet very deadly style of fighting.
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Interesting background. Thanks for posting this article/post.
Kind regards, Mike
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This is very interesting...
Thanks for posting.
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I have to say that I wouldn't even consider Atillo's "balintawak", Balintawak. I've met students of his in Cebu and in California, and they are 2nd, if not 3rd rate, fighters. They like to talk, and berate true Balintawak fighters, but when they are approached and challenged formally, they find execuses not to fight. I can't even figure out why this guy uses the title BALINTAWAK. I guess when small men stand on a mountain, they begin to think they are that mountain.
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Are there differences in technique, training method, theory?
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there was a fight between Anciong Bacon and Ising Atillo that occurred which brought about the breakdown of the old Balintawak group. This was caused mainly because Villasin was president for too long and didn't want to step down. It occurred in Punta Princesa where I grew up. There were many witnesses, so I really don't know why there's such controversy about it. Of course the Atillo camp, and Atillo himself claims that he won. I'm sure Bacon's students claim the opposite.
Atillo was in his 30's and Bacon was in his 60's when this happened. It's really unfortunate, sportsmanship is really not a Filipino quality. We don't accept defeat graciously. As for me, I of course agree with Atillo until otherwise proven. A fight did occur in Punta Princesa in front of (correction: BEHIND) Lourdes Church. The owner of the place where it happened was a man named Eduardo Tabasa. Another witness is his brother, my 4th grade Boy Scout Instructor, and co-worker of my mother, Rudy Tabasa. To me he is a very reliable source of information. I will stick to that story, sorry if you don't agree.
As I've said, Ising claims to have won the fight. I believe him.
Anciong was not the only founder of Balintawak. He was indeed a master and teacher of many since he was second in line to Doring Saavedra. Balintawak would not have existed without Anciong as he played a very big part in its creation. I have no disagreement with that.
A little while ago, some guy, supposedly a student of Teddy Buot made similar claims. The fact is by the time this happened, Buot was already in the US.
Finally, I grew up in Cebu and in the same area where this all happened. I know Ising's reputation. I'm not saying he's perfect, not at all. I was just trying to answer the question to the best of my knowledge. I am sure we don't agree on this and we probably never will. So let's leave it at that. I won't waste my time trying to convince you, please don't try to convince me... You'll just waste your time and effort if you do. This subject has gone as far as it can go. Peace to you.
Guest: To whom is this addressed?-- Crafty Dog
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Are there differences in technique, training method, theory?
hi Crafty Dog,
this is exactly why there is a problem: because technique-wise, movement, a little bit in the method, and theory of simplicity, it's all very similar to Anciong Bacon's art, too similar to say it is coincidental.
but, Ising Atillo has refused to recognize Anciong Bacon, yet he uses the term Balintawak, which as the first post explained was Anciong Bacon's.
instead Ising Atillo credits Doring Saavedra for his style, which is really suspect because Doring Saavedra died in WWII, when Ising Atillo was just a mere toddler.
this is why there is such a rift between Atillo and the rest of Balintawak, all of whom recognize Anciong Bacon as the founder of their system.
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ummm, GM Atillo learnt from his father no? Who learnt from GM Doring Saavedra no? It is not entirely impossible ya know....
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ummm, GM Atillo learnt from his father no? Who learnt from GM Doring Saavedra no? It is not entirely impossible ya know....
yes, but if you remember, and for those who do not know, Doring Saavedra was one of the original members of Doce Pares, founded in the early 1930s.
he died in WWII. balintawak was established in the early 1950s (the history of which is in the initial post).
Atillo uses the title BALINTAWAK, yet he credits his style to Doring Saavedra who was a Doce Pares original, but BALINTAWAK is clearly Anciong Bacon's, so who's riding on who's name? but, most importantly, why?
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(I did some research for you guys)...
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1998/dec98/way.html
Atillo was 14 years old when he began his formal training in 1952 under arnis legend Venancio "Anciong" Bacon, but his first fighting experience came at a much younger age. During the Japanese occupation of the Philippines in the early 1940s, Atillo's father was a member of the resistance, and more than once both father and son narrowly avoided capture. It was also during these war years that he witnessed Bacon and another legendary Balintawak master, Teodoro Saavedra, fight in challenge matches. These early experiences left a deep impression on the young Atillo and made him a lifelong devotee of the original style of Balintawak arnis.
After World War II, the only surviving Balintawak master was Bacon. It was from him that Atillo learned most of this single-stick style. But Atillo's father was also a student of the late Saavedra, and the senior Atillo passed those skills along to his son. The result was a style of arnis that made the junior Atillo one of the best ambassadors of arnis in the Philippines.
http://www.krishnagodhania.com/articles/duel.html
In September 1983, Ciriaco "Cacoy" Canete fought Ising Atillo in the last officially sanctioned duel. The duel, witnessed by many spectators, did not last long. Two strikes to the temple and one to the hand brought matters to a close. A rematch was scheduled for four days later—but Atillo's heart rate was too high, and he was declared physically unfit.
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Atillo uses the title BALINTAWAK, yet he credits his style to Doring Saavedra who was a Doce Pares original, but BALINTAWAK is clearly Anciong Bacon's, so who's riding on who's name? but, most importantly, why?[/quote]
Maybe because if he had to choose between Doce Pares and Balintawak he chose Balintawak - he was a member no? I think he had the best of both worlds sort of speak...maybe after breaking down what he learned from his father and what he later learned from GM Bacon, he decided, for himself, that the former was more sound - i repeat for himself. He seems pragmatic - to him maybe it's just a name of a club rather than a style or system.....but you know, all you have to do is ask him. That would save a lot of time and hassle would it not?
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oh wait, wasn't GM Bacon a Doce Pares original too? hmmmmm........
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there was a fight between Anciong Bacon and Ising Atillo that occurred which brought about the breakdown of the old Balintawak group. This was caused mainly because Villasin was president for too long and didn't want to step down. It occurred in Punta Princesa where I grew up. There were many witnesses, so I really don't know why there's such controversy about it. Of course the Atillo camp, and Atillo himself claims that he won. I'm sure Bacon's students claim the opposite.
Atillo was in his 30's and Bacon was in his 60's when this happened. It's really unfortunate, sportsmanship is really not a Filipino quality. We don't accept defeat graciously. As for me, I of course agree with Atillo until otherwise proven. A fight did occur in Punta Princesa in front of (correction: BEHIND) Lourdes Church. The owner of the place where it happened was a man named Eduardo Tabasa. Another witness is his brother, my 4th grade Boy Scout Instructor, and co-worker of my mother, Rudy Tabasa. To me he is a very reliable source of information. I will stick to that story, sorry if you don't agree.
As I've said, Ising claims to have won the fight. I believe him.
Anciong was not the only founder of Balintawak. He was indeed a master and teacher of many since he was second in line to Doring Saavedra. Balintawak would not have existed without Anciong as he played a very big part in its creation. I have no disagreement with that.
A little while ago, some guy, supposedly a student of Teddy Buot made similar claims. The fact is by the time this happened, Buot was already in the US.
Finally, I grew up in Cebu and in the same area where this all happened. I know Ising's reputation. I'm not saying he's perfect, not at all. I was just trying to answer the question to the best of my knowledge. I am sure we don't agree on this and we probably never will. So let's leave it at that. I won't waste my time trying to convince you, please don't try to convince me... You'll just waste your time and effort if you do. This subject has gone as far as it can go. Peace to you.
I know exactly who wrote this post. He is one of Ising Atillo?s students in America. He isn?t even a novice fighter. But, he likes to talk big, and speak of things he knows nothing about. If he wishes, I will gladly meet him outside this virtual forum, for a little personal ?comparison? of styles. I do not know if Ising Atillo is aware that his students are spreading lies over the internet, it wouldn?t surprise me if he did. We can talk about ?he said this? and ?they said that? and ?I heard this?, but this would be a waste of all our time. So, let us just use the facts at hand and come to a final conclusion, and end this rumor.
?there was a fight between Anciong Bacon and Ising Atillo that occurred which brought about the breakdown of the old Balintawak group. This was caused mainly because Villasin was president for too long and didn?t want to step down.?
Yes, Jose Villasin was the cause of Ising Atillo?s eventual dislike of Balintawak. At 14 yrs old, Atillo was part of the Balintawak circle, through his father, Vincente Atillo, a supporter of Anciong Bacon. As the Balintawak Club grew in the 50s and 60s, Ising Atillo was sadly passed over several times. Other newcomers, such as Villasin, Velez, and Buot, who proved to be better fighters, garnered more training attention from the Balintawak elders than did Atillo.
Every club has its hierarchy of representing fighters. There is a number one, number two, number three guy, and so on, to answer challenge matches. Doce Pares in the 1930s had Doring Saavedra, after his death was Cacoy Canete. Balintawak in the 1950s was Anciong Bacon. In the mid-60s, the number one guy for Balintawak was Villasin. This was agreed to by all Balintawak elders, who were now pushing their mid and late-50s, and have accepted that it was high time to retire from challenge matches. The torch was passed on, with complete confidence.
Another reason Villasin was the president of the club for so long, was because he was both an accomplished lawyer and a labor union leader. So, he possessed the organizational skills, as well as the support of the Balintawak elders.
?Atillo was in his 30s and Bacon was in his 60s when this happened.?
Anciong Bacon was born in 1912. In 1952, during the establishment of Balintawak, Ising Atillo was 14 yrs old and Anciong Bacon was 40 yrs old. There is 26 yrs between. Anciong Bacon was Ising Atillo?s teacher. Anciong Bacon turned 60 yrs old in 1972, in a jail cell in Manila. He was put there for murder. He was paroled in the mid-1970s, forbidden to engage in any more encounters. He died a few years later, having passed on the torch to his latest student, Bobby Tabimina. So, the ?fight? between Atillo and Bacon would have to be in the late 1960s. But during the late 60s, the challenge matches were now answered by Villasin, Velez, and Buot.
It would make more sense for Atillo to challenge Villasin because both were around the same age. But making even more sense, Atillo should have challenged Villasin, because he was the source of his jealousy. This would?ve made a more believable account, and would sound much more honorable, than ?challenging and beating? your old teacher in his late 60s.
As I?ve said, Ising claims to have won the fight. I believe him.
Yes, and Ising also claimed to have won his match with Cacoy Canete in 1983. We?ve all seen the pictures of Atillo, put in a headlock by Canete. After that match he went to a local radio station and proclaimed himself the winner by default, because his rule of no-grappling was violated. Sadly, his students today also believe this none sense.
Let me explain. You can hit, trip, maim, or even send a Balintawak fighter to the hospital, or even kill him. They will accept this fate, since this is what eskrima is all about. But, you cannot disarm him, take away his stick, and you cannot put him in a headlock, holding his neck hostage. This, to a Balintawak fighter (or any true eskrimador for that matter), is complete dishonor and a total embarrassment. Disarming another shows speed, man-handling your opponent carrying a stick shows power. Cacoy Canete man-handled Ising Atillo, for a reason. He treated Ising Atillo, with complete disrespect, for a reason. He wanted to embarrass Ising Atillo and make a point. The point is very simple? RESPECT YOUR ELDERS!!!
A little while ago, some guy, supposedly a student of Teddy Buot made similar claims. The fact is by the time this happened, Buot was already in the US.
Teddy Buot came to the US in 1974, after serving as president of Balintawak, following Villasin?s departure. So, yes, he would know of this alleged ?fight?.
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maybe after breaking down what he learned from his father and what he later learned from GM Bacon, he decided, for himself, that the former was more sound - i repeat for himself
the problem with this theory is that Atillo's father recognized GM Bacon's significance in Balintawak and that this club exists because of GM Bacon. so, if Atillo uses the title Balintawak, why disrespect GM Bacon by claiming that he defeated him, and spread other falsehoods about Balintawak.
I agree with Reynaldo, Ising Atillo, should use another name. he forfeited his right to use this, when he began calling himself "the Supreme GrandMaster of Balintawak" and saying other lies, thinking people won't know the truth. well, now we know.
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Well well well, Hello Alvin & Denis (guest & guest-of-guest)
This is "some guy from a while ago" who is "supposedly" a student of Teddy Buot's.
Nothing supposed about it, I am a student of Manong Ted Buot.
Nice to see you guys are still full of crap & believing everything your
"supreme grand master" tells you. If you recall I told you there were other people who were still alive & active who knew the truth and that they would come forward. And now they are.
As a matter of fact you guys have had to change your website like what? 3 times now, because Ising is constantly contradicting himself & revising history to back up those untruths.
For the LAST time, Ising NEVER, ever fought Gm Anciong. I have the account from several real witnesses (i told you to get verification from sources other than Ising, especially cause he's the one who ends up looking like #1).
The fight you are talking about was Ising showing off at that meeting/gathering by beating the living crap out of his own father, Inting Atillo. Really, how sad. Especially because all i've heard about Inting was that he was a good man who's only fault wast loving his looneytoons son too much.
You want to talk about Isings great deathmatches? How about the one against the Lapunti fighter, who after cracking Ising in the head a couple times ended up getting bearhugged from behind by Isings wif because she could stand to see him getting beat up (again).
Or how about the fight against the Doce Pares fighter (not Gm Cacoy) where Inting asked Nong Ted Buot to referee - that would be the one where Ising's strategy was to constantly "advance to the rear" and not engage. Ising refused to fight in a circle, obviously because he would not be able to retreat very far before he had to fight.
Yet this is the same guy we are supposed to believe actually fought & BEAT Anciong Ba'con? come on...
Well in that case, I am going to be telling everyone from now on that I beat both of you after I challenged you to meet me because you guys never showed up. I was there - neither of you showed...I win.
By the way to whoever posted that Arturo is in Michigan, this info is incorrect. He was here for a visit, but still lives in Cebu.
Also, Ted Buot was never president of any Balintawak orginization, but he is the only student of Anciong's that was delegated to teach for him.
Guro Crafty, Hello. I want to apoligize in advance if I have offended you by using your forum to set these fellas straight (they will not let me post on their forum - truth cuts to close I guess). But they have dispareged both my teacher & his teacher in print.
Later
Rob Perkins
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For some reason it wouldn't let me make that last post with my user name Toasty, just wanted to clarify the post was not from me and not from the first guy posting under the guest title.
Also, another thing Alvin or Denis (whichever one of you is posting), you keep saying that Ted Buot was already in the States when this fantasy fight between Anciong & Ising supposedly took place. Two things - 1) do you think that Ted has never gone back to Cebu and actually seen & spoken to people? 2) do you suppose that there are no telephones in Cebu - so obviously no one could call him with the news that his friend & teacher had just been defeated?!
So what if he was in the States, he has family & friends & students still in Cebu, I am pretty fricken' sure they would have told him of an encounter such as that!
And also, that BS about Ising being the youngest member of the Balintawak St. club is exactly that, BullS#%t.
You morons actually post a picture on your site (or you did anyway - probably gonna change that now too) of the original members and guess what? NO 14 year old kid in the picture. Its on YOUR site & it contradicts what you & Ising say. My god, pay attention to your "evidence" & wording.
later
Rob
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For some reason it wouldn't let me make that last post with my user name Toasty, just wanted to clarify the post was from me and not from the first guy posting under the guest title.
Also, another thing Alvin or Denis (whichever one of you is posting), you keep saying that Ted Buot was already in the States when this fantasy fight between Anciong & Ising supposedly took place. Two things - 1) do you think that Ted has never gone back to Cebu and actually seen & spoken to people? 2) do you suppose that there are no telephones in Cebu - so obviously no one could call him with the news that his friend & teacher had just been defeated?!
So what if he was in the States, he has family & friends & students still in Cebu, I am pretty fricken' sure they would have told him of an encounter such as that!
And also, that BS about Ising being the youngest member of the Balintawak St. club is exactly that, BullS#%t.
You morons actually post a picture on your site (or you did anyway - probably gonna change that now too) of the original members and guess what? NO 14 year old kid in the picture. Its on YOUR site & it contradicts what you & Ising say. My god, pay attention to your "evidence" & wording.
later
Rob
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Sorry for posting up your board Guro Crafty, I couldnt figure out how to edit my post & accidently quoted myself with the edit. so now I have to clarify the clarification...LOL
What I meant to write was that the post WAS from me & NOT the first guy (from Isings camp) posting under "guest"
So from now on I will use user name Rob.
thanx
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By the way to whoever posted that Arturo is in Michigan, this info is incorrect. He was here for a visit, but still lives in Cebu.
Also, Ted Buot was never president of any Balintawak orginization, but he is the only student of Anciong's that was delegated to teach for him.
thanks for clarifying the above info, rob. i noticed the Atillo "balintawak" website is now, all of the sudden, "under construction" once again.
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Dennis Flores and Alvin Ylaya owners of Atillo's Balintawak website. The two goofballs of Loma Linda. The truth finally caught up. "Supreme Grandmaster" Ising Atillo was better off telling his stories to a select few. Because you've posted these "stories" over the internet, you guys are now the laughing stock of the FMA community. Welcome to the Global Village!!! Should've just stuck to watching Jackie Chan flicks, guys!!! :roll: :cry: :idea:
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:shock:
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Bwa - ha - ha! Busted! :lol:
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Mr. Rob Perkins,
When I first studied with GM Atillo, I went for the training, not the politics....you should talk when you need to and act when you have to. We need to talk and share. Enough of this sad attempt at satire. Is your teacher telling you to go on here and do this? Does he know you're doing this? Give me an honest and humble reply. Gm Atillo told me to forgive and not bother posting here, but this is too much "tae".
Paolo David
905-626-3990
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what do you suppose we do with the whole Anciong Vs. Ising Atillo story, Paolo? do you think lies should go unanswered, are you gonna say you beat up so and so at some place and expect no response from the truth? talk to alvin and dennis and ising about these lies first then talk about training.
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All posts are of my own writing. Manong Ted is not telling me to do anything.
I would love to talk & share, I am sure Ising is a talented Eskrimador, but he has said in print that he has defeated (actually his words were "severely beat" ) Noy Anciong and that he had fought Nong Ted & hit him in the neck. Both of which are complete fabrications. Ising knows this.
Ising told you to FORGIVE?!! His made up stories are what started all this to begin with.
I still have not gotten an answer why Ising uses the name Balintawak if his most recent story is that he never learned from Anciong. Why not use the name Doce Pares as Doring Saavedra was of that original group. Or even Saavedra Eskrima or Atillo Eskrima?
You guys have the right to believe & say what you think is the truth, And I have the right to tell you that I believe you're wrong.
Why is it that Mr. Atillo's version of history is different from every other Balintawak faction's version of history. Perhaps its not that everyone else is wrong, but that he is incorrect?
RFP
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Guro Crafty,
Can you please just delete this whole thread? This little discussion is making our GM and school look bad, not the mention this is also totally useless talk. Thank You...
PatriK[/i]
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Guro Crafty,
I believe this thread should not be deleted. I am new to FMA and recently joined one school which, after extensive research (now I believe is not enough after all), seemed to be one of the more distinguished schools in the US. This thread is very informative. It disgusts me (I am a Filipino) to find out that lies are allegedly being made by Masters of the art. I guess my research wasn't enough as this is the first time I have read about the Atillo Balintawak system.
It would be beneficial to all practitioners as well as those interested in learning the art to clarify the allegations in this thread. This is not useless talk - people are learning here. If the lies are true & is making the GM & their school look bad, then so be it. The students of the school are entitled to the truth. A student's learning starts with trust - trust that those teaching them speak of the truth & only of the truth.
Nagbibigay galang.
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Hi Beginner,
I agree with you. Here is their website: http://balintawak.com/
They've taken down most of the information they had, after this thread came up, but they still kept their forum.
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Hi, Jimb.
Thanks. Yeah, I already looked through their forum. I really didn't get any info on this particular matter (for obvious reasons).
It is simply dishonorable to disrespect another by spreading lies - more so with Guro's. I mean, if I, as a beginner in this art understand this, what should this mean to the founders of Atillo Balintawak? This is, of course, assuming the allegations that the lies are true. Which is why readers of this thread are asking for answers. And if in fact they are indeed lies, like we say in the Philippines, "Magpakalalaki ka't aminin mo." (Be a man and admit the truth.)
My apologies & much respect to the Dog Brothers.
Nagbibigay Galang.
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Here's more info, if you haven't already looked thru, Beginner:
http://balintawak.s5.com/home.html
http://www.islandnet.com/%7Egmzimmer/balintaw.htm
Happy reading!!!
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Thanks, Jimb! Very informative.
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Ising Atillo is a friend of mine. He is a very good man and an absolutely terrific teacher of eskrima. I have often asked him, during our private training sessions, why he persists in calling his method Balintawak when his personal approach is so different from that of, say, Bobby Taboada. Acknowlegding the difference in his method from others, his answer is simply that his father asked him to carry on the name out of respect. As much as Ising has been berated here as some sort of charlatan who has no real skill or right to be teaching, I assure you that he would be the first to put his proverbial cards on the table if any of you would dare to state your ignorant opinions to his face... All of this inane bickering about Balintawak reminds me of the political b.s. that is Wing Chun... Like all of us, Ising is human. He has failings, certainly, but he is the most selfless and generous teacher of eskrima that I have ever met. Before you continue tearing him down from within the safety and anonymity of the Internet, go meet the man, train with him and get to know him... and if you still can't swallow your Balintawak pride, then call his method Atillo Eskrima and be done with it.
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yes yes yes, Guest, you are absolutely correct. but, we are not talking about SGM Atillo's skills here. rather we are discussing his challenge duel with Anciong Bacon (if it did happen) and the relation of this story to Balintawak.
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because it's kinda like saying, "I beat the living crap out of Bruce Lee when I was 30 and Bruce was 60 years old. so, I call my art James Jeet Kun Do".
doesn't sound logical, does it?
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I was just thinking about this whole "lies" business... Isn't Floro Villabrille credited with at least 60 death matches? Doesn't Cacoy Canete claim to have been undefeated in 100 death matches? Bobby Taboada says he's had 30 death matches, several of which were against multiple opponents. Hmmmm, is it just me or do these "records" set off anyone else's bullshit detectors? And what about Angel Cabales? Does anybody really believe there's a "cave of death" on Cebu that only he seemed to know anything about and, lo and behold, only he was able to fight his way through? I'm not Filipino, as you may have guessed, so while I have the appropriate level of respect for the skills of all my teachers, I have long since stopped listening to the claims of eskrimadors in general... Funny thing is, here in the U.S., if your aspirations are to get to the NBA, for example, you look for a coach who can teach you the skills you'll need. You don't glom onto a successful player in hopes that his Mojo will rub off on you. Yet, in the martial arts, where so many practitioners talk about supposedly scientific systems and training "smart," it seems that just about everyone is caught up in the "my instructor is a world champion" foolishness. Get over it! If your instructor is or was a successful fighter, good for him, and so what? He probably isn't going to be there when and if you ever have to defend your life, so what the hell difference does it make?
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woof all, i have been reading this thread for longer than i care to remmeber, and have now reached the point where i have to interject my two cents. thats about all my interjection is worth! anyway......
i met Atillo at the november gathering he was a very nice man and i enjoyed talking with him. he shared with me his photo of his father and the rest of the balintiwak clan, so i have no doubt that he was part of that group. i dont think many of you will dispute that either?
i have seen the photo of his fight which seems to be so much in question and it appears to me that he regardless of the outcome had the courage to engage in a fight with no protective gear esp no head gear. i think that speaks for itself. how many of you bashers out there can make that claim?
sooo..... my points are, he apperantly was part of at least one of the early balinitwak groups, and he evidently did participate in a full contact match without protective gear. as for the rest of the blah blah blahs i dont see the point.
if a person can study and learn something useful under another what makes the difference what its called? a tool i can put to use is a valuable one, if i cant use it why keep it in the bag.
dog brothers martial arts uses lots of styles to make up the dog brothers system including various fma styles...........i guess the bottom line is consider weather or not theres a possibilty you can learn something from attlio and if not move on. maybe someone else can. sb
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I was just thinking about this whole "lies" business... Isn't Floro Villabrille credited with at least 60 death matches? Doesn't Cacoy Canete claim to have been undefeated in 100 death matches? Bobby Taboada says he's had 30 death matches, several of which were against multiple opponents. Hmmmm, is it just me or do these "records" set off anyone else's bullshit detectors? And what about Angel Cabales? Does anybody really believe there's a "cave of death" on Cebu that only he seemed to know anything about and, lo and behold, only he was able to fight his way through?
i'm not filipino either, but a flawed account is a flawed account. in all the above cases, you've stated, they are all general claims--meaning there's no way to know if they are truths or lies.
but, Ising Atillo's "Venancio Bacon vs. Ising Atillo" fight is very much disputed because there are more people who say this is a lie. more people who say this fight never happened.
another reason Atillo's story is different from the above cases, is that Floro Villabrille never claimed to have defeated the originator of his style, nor did Cacoy Canete (he never claims to have defeated Ensong Saavedra), and Bobby Taboada never says he beat his teacher, Teofilo Velez. Angel Cabales never claims to have defeated the originator of his style also.
But, Ising Atillo does. which makes him stand out like a sore thumb. this is why his use of Balintawak and his stories are being attacked. i'm sure he is a lovable man, but if he goes around telling stories that make no sense at all, then people will respond.
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“Atillo was in his 30s and Bacon was in his 60s when this happened.”
Anciong Bacon was born in 1912. In 1952, during the establishment of Balintawak, Ising Atillo was 14 yrs old and Anciong Bacon was 40 yrs old. There is 26 yrs between. Anciong Bacon was Ising Atillo’s teacher. Anciong Bacon turned 60 yrs old in 1972, in a jail cell in Manila. He was put there for murder. He was paroled in the mid-1970s, forbidden to engage in any more encounters. He died a few years later, having passed on the torch to his latest student, Bobby Tabimina. So, the “fight” between Atillo and Bacon would have to be in the late 1960s. But during the late 60s, the challenge matches were now answered by Villasin, Velez, and Buot.
It would make more sense for Atillo to challenge Villasin because both were around the same age. But making even more sense, Atillo should have challenged Villasin, because he was the source of his jealousy. This would’ve made a more believable account, and would sound much more honorable, than “challenging and beating” your old teacher in his late 60s.
As I’ve said, Ising claims to have won the fight. I believe him.
Yes, and Ising also claimed to have won his match with Cacoy Canete in 1983. We’ve all seen the pictures of Atillo, put in a headlock by Canete. After that match he went to a local radio station and proclaimed himself the winner by default, because his rule of no-grappling was violated. Sadly, his students today also believe this none sense.
Let me explain. You can hit, trip, maim, or even send a Balintawak fighter to the hospital, or even kill him. They will accept this fate, since this is what eskrima is all about. But, you cannot disarm him, take away his stick, and you cannot put him in a headlock, holding his neck hostage. This, to a Balintawak fighter (or any true eskrimador for that matter), is complete dishonor and a total embarrassment. Disarming another shows speed, man-handling your opponent carrying a stick shows power. Cacoy Canete man-handled Ising Atillo, for a reason. He treated Ising Atillo, with complete disrespect, for a reason. He wanted to embarrass Ising Atillo and make a point. The point is very simple… RESPECT YOUR ELDERS!!!
I don't know much about what's going on here. All I know is that this post is the one that makes the most sense so far, since the other side hasn't really offered a strong rebuttal.
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Being that the 1983 match between these two men was a "sport fight," why is it that Canete's clear breach of the rules he agreed to abide by is ignored and his "victory" upheld? I have a high-resolution digital photograph of the original rules for this fight - a document that both men signed - which states categorically that it was to be a stick-fighting-only match. If either man resorted to punching, kicking or grappling, he was immediately supposed to be declared the loser. I took this photograph myself. It has not been altered or retouched, and I would be happy to put it up here. The bottom line is, Canete clearly broke the rules, so he was the loser. The newspaper picture that everyone keeps referring to is irrefutable evidence of his breach. But there's another point here that begs to be considered... At 65 years of age, I know that my little 5'2" instructor is still ready and willing to prove the efficacy of his art in battle. If you have a problem with anything he says, step up, but leave your knee pads, street hockey gloves and fencing headgear at home. Ising has gone at it for real. He deserves your respect... so put up or shut up.
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there's two versions of the Atillo vs. Canete fight. one is that, the guy who man handled the other is the winner. and the other is that, the guy who broke the "rules" is the loser. if you like "rules" then of course you'll raise GM Ising Atillo's arm in victory, like his website. but, if you like reality, then it is GM Canete's win. it would be like a ferris wheel ride if we argued about this.
** what we are trying to determine and find out about is the Atillo vs. Anciong Bacon fight. we should limit our topic to this. **
this Atillo vs. Anciong Bacon "fight", is kinda like Guro Crafty claiming he beat the hell out of PG Edgar Sulite, then saying that he's a qualified instructor of PG Sulite's system. (this is just an analogy, i hope you don't mind, Guro Crafty.) this why it doesn't make sense.
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http://www.wingchun.net/eddie.html
Balintawak Arnis was originally begun by Grand Master Anciong Bacon, named for the street on which the school originated, Balintawak Street. Two of his students whom were also friends, Joe Villasin and Filo Velez eventually attained Mastership of the art and opened their own schools nearby, also on Balintawak Street. Villasin and Velez's students often trained with each other as well as attended Saturday practices with GM Bacon.
Eddie Velez is one of three sons of Master Velez. His brothers include his older brother, Chito Velez, and his younger brother, Monie Velez. The three brothers grew up very close to one another and all training under the instruction of their father, Villasin, and GM Bacon. Through this emersion in the art, their skills readily excelled. To the new Balintawak, it was not uncommon for Velez's children to instruct.
Eddie is very quick with the stick and often likes to play low to the ground, hitting at the knees as it can prove very tiring to the opponent. Eddie also enjoys applying the back handed strike, number 6 of the Balintawak 12 point system, known as "witik". This move has much application, usefully often functioning similar to a Western Boxing "jab".
Sifu Walsh himself also recently was had the fine opportunity to travel to Cebu where he met and trained with Eddie Velez who now often with the rest of his brothers, teaches Balintawak on the beaches of Cebu in Pooc, carrying on their father's name and the Balintawak.
He recalls of Eddie, "Eddie is a remarkable character. He provides some of the finest skills and blinding speed that I have seen anywhere. It has been a pleasure learning his stick techniques as well as teaching him the Wing Chun hand skills that can compliment the close range nature of Balintawak, as well as to aid him in the development of the "live hand" or "tapi". If it were his desire to travel and teach (it is not), he would be a star and much sought after."
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Unbelievable! -- "if you like "rules" then of course you'll raise GM Ising Atillo's arm in victory, like his website. but, if you like reality, then it is GM Canete's win." -- What the fuck is that? I guess if you "like reality," then it's okay that those muslim cowards broke the "rules" and brought down the WTC... If Canete signed the "rules," thereby agreeing to abide by them, do you really think it's perfectly okay that he broke them? What if he had pulled out a knife and just gutted the little upstart? That would've put him in his place, right? And hey, that's "reality." And hey, if we're talking "reality" here, then why don't YOU pull a live blade the next time you're sparring with one of your friends, cut his throat and then shrug it off to "reality?" If Canete agreed to test his stick vs. stick skills against Atillo - which, by signing the rules, he obviously did - why is it that you think it's perfectly alright that he then decided to go by his own rules? It was a "sport fight," after all, and there were rules. Is that so difficult for you to grasp? What if some meathead in a so-called "no holds barred" contest pulls out a straight razor and murders his opponent? Isn't that "reality" again? And what about the Super Bowl? To quote the deified Bruce Lee, "why doesn't somebody pull a .45 and BANG, settle it?" "Reality" again, right? And what about YOU? If you're one of those who "like reality," then why don't YOU give little old Atillo a call and meet him for a session of "reality." You imply that he isn't even a qualified instructor, so what's stopping you?
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If you actually talk to GM Atillo about Bacon and the day they "got into it," for lack of a better way of putting it, the whole incident comes into perspective. That his young, enthusiastic students may have pumped it up a little is hardly a surprise. Anyway, Atillo describes a training session (circa 1973) that morphed into a test of skill. Without a hint of animosity, he talks about how the two of them started amping up the speed and power in a sort of "that wasn't bad but what about this" exchange. Atillo freely admits to being hit by Bacon. He then goes on to explain that he finally bested him with "cuentada" techniques he himself had developed from Bacon's methods and the methods he learned from his father, who had also trained with Doring Saavedra. According to Atillo, it was a very brief fight, if you can really call it a fight, and Bacon wasn't the least bit angry that the younger Atillo had pushed at the edge of the envelope... The way I see it, if Bacon was as great a teacher as he is purported to have been, then he would have tried his damnedest to lift his students on his shoulders - to make them better than he was - and if he came to find that he had succeeded, the moment would've been very fulfilling for him. Of course, for his other students, the security of their little hierarchy would've been shaken to its foundation. Hence, the accusations of lying and disloyalty... Further, as much as I have learned from my own teachers, none has had nearly the influence that my father had. Atillo credits his father with teaching him the core of Saavedra's methods. I'm sure that Bacon brought his understanding to a higher level, but I certainly don't fault Atillo for his filial piety... Beyond all this, GM Atillo's only interest is in promoting eskrima. Touch hands with him and feel his art and you'll know he's got something special to offer. Dan Inosanto certainly thinks so... but then, what does he know?
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If you actually talk to GM Atillo about Bacon and the day they "got into it," for lack of a better way of putting it, the whole incident comes into perspective. That his young, enthusiastic students may have pumped it up a little is hardly a surprise. Anyway, Atillo describes a training session (circa 1973) that morphed into a test of skill.
If you remember, Alvin Ylaya or Dennis Flores, in 1973, Venancio Bacon was in prison serving time for murder. When he was release, he was already in pretty bad shape with cancer. So, you need to do more research regarding the date. But, this is all moot now, in light of the new version of the story.
Without a hint of animosity, he talks about how the two of them started amping up the speed and power in a sort of "that wasn't bad but what about this" exchange. Atillo freely admits to being hit by Bacon. He then goes on to explain that he finally bested him with "cuentada" techniques he himself had developed from Bacon's methods and the methods he learned from his father, who had also trained with Doring Saavedra. According to Atillo, it was a very brief fight, if you can really call it a fight, and Bacon wasn't the least bit angry that the younger Atillo had pushed at the edge of the envelope...
This makes much more sense now, Alvin or Dennis. So it wasn't a fight, it was a friendly practice match. But, if you two remember, on your website and your forum, you did say it was a fight in which GM Atillo beat GM Bacon. So, basically, you goofballs misrepresented GM Atillo. I for one believe GM Atillo to be a respectable man.
So, this is your fault Alvin and Dennis, for writing such non-sense on your website. It is understandable how other Balintawak folks responded with such impunity. You two, Alvin Ylaya and Dennis Flores, should apologize to the Balintawak community and to GM Atillo, specifically, for misrepresenting his stories and putting it up on the internet for all the world to see!!!
The way I see it, if Bacon was as great a teacher as he is purported to have been, then he would have tried his damnedest to lift his students on his shoulders - to make them better than he was - and if he came to find that he had succeeded, the moment would've been very fulfilling for him.
Venancio Bacon was a great man, that is why he was well respected by all of his students. This was of course before you two, Alvin and Dennis, got a hold of the internet and screwed up GM Atillo's reputation by spreading falsehoods.
Of course, for his other students, the security of their little hierarchy would've been shaken to its foundation. Hence, the accusations of lying and disloyalty...
In short, "the accusations of lying and disloyalty" were all yours, Alvin Ylaya and Dennis Flores. As far as I am concerned, GM Atillo's name has been redeemed. Balintawak's foundations have never really been shakened, GM Venancio Bacon is still very much seen as its originator and the force behind the organization.
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If you actually talk to GM Atillo about Bacon and the day they "got into it," for lack of a better way of putting it, the whole incident comes into perspective. That his young, enthusiastic students may have pumped it up a little is hardly a surprise. Anyway, Atillo describes a training session (circa 1973) that morphed into a test of skill.
If you remember, Alvin Ylaya or Dennis Flores, in 1973, Venancio Bacon was in prison serving time for murder. When he was release, he was already in pretty bad shape with cancer. So, you need to do more research regarding the date. But, this is all moot now, in light of the new version of the story.
Without a hint of animosity, he talks about how the two of them started amping up the speed and power in a sort of "that wasn't bad but what about this" exchange. Atillo freely admits to being hit by Bacon. He then goes on to explain that he finally bested him with "cuentada" techniques he himself had developed from Bacon's methods and the methods he learned from his father, who had also trained with Doring Saavedra. According to Atillo, it was a very brief fight, if you can really call it a fight, and Bacon wasn't the least bit angry that the younger Atillo had pushed at the edge of the envelope...
This makes much more sense now, Alvin or Dennis. So it wasn't a fight, it was a friendly practice match. But, if you two remember, on your website and your forum, you did say it was a fight in which GM Atillo beat GM Bacon. So, basically, you goofballs misrepresented GM Atillo. I for one believe GM Atillo to be a respectable man.
So, this is your fault Alvin and Dennis, for writing such non-sense on your website. It is understandable how other Balintawak folks responded with such impunity. You two, Alvin Ylaya and Dennis Flores, should apologize to the Balintawak community and to GM Atillo, specifically, for misrepresenting his stories and putting it up on the internet for all the world to see!!!
The way I see it, if Bacon was as great a teacher as he is purported to have been, then he would have tried his damnedest to lift his students on his shoulders - to make them better than he was - and if he came to find that he had succeeded, the moment would've been very fulfilling for him.
Venancio Bacon was a great man, that is why he was well respected by all of his students. This was of course before you two, Alvin and Dennis, got a hold of the internet and screwed up GM Atillo's reputation by spreading falsehoods.
Of course, for his other students, the security of their little hierarchy would've been shaken to its foundation. Hence, the accusations of lying and disloyalty...
In short, "the accusations of lying and disloyalty" were all yours, Alvin Ylaya and Dennis Flores. As far as I am concerned, GM Atillo's name has been redeemed. Balintawak's foundations have never really been shakened, GM Venancio Bacon is still very much seen as its originator and the force behind the organization.
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Hey Paolo, regarding the date (circa 1973), that is MY best recollection of Atillo's account. I may be way off. At the time we were discussing it, the date was of little interest to me. Actually, after all this back and forth, the whole subject has become uninteresting. Anyway, I don't think that Alvin and Dennis should be vilified. They undoubtedly intended to help GM Atillo, whom I know knows very little, if anything, about running a website. Like the old telephone game, what went into their ears one way simply came out another. I think it's human nature, particularly amongst youthful devotees of a charismatic teacher like Atillo, to embellish the truth and make a sparring session into a fight, and a fight into a death match. Just look at the deification of Bruce Lee. The man was 5'7" and 120 lbs. soaking wet. The laws of physics place specific limitations on the amount of power any man can generate (mass x acceleration = force), so as fun as it is to imagine old Bruce as Superman, it just isn't true. I hate to break it to some of you out there but, like you and me (and GM Atillo), Bruce was fallible. He took steroids to build his physique and they almost assuredly contributed to his untimely death. He undoubtedly fucked around on his wife, which no man should see as an admirable thing to do. He had a vicious, unpredictable temper ('roid rage?) and, from all reports, brutalized his own students on more than a few occasions... That said, his application of Krishnamurti's philosophical approach to the martial arts was genius. His contribution in that regard cannot be understated. As a martial artist, he was ahead of his time. But in elevating him to legendary status, we do him a great dis-service. There are better kickers. There are better boxers. There are better grapplers. He was not invincible or unsurpassable, by any stretch of the imagination. If he were alive today, he would undoubtedly be plagued by many of the same injuries we have all incurred in our training. Moreover, he might well be paying for his earlier steroid use with heart, liver or kidney damage. He was a man, simply and humbly. His legacy lives in the open-mindedness of free-thinking martial artists the world over. But he wasn't a god or a superman... GM Atillo is 65. (He'll be 66 on June 10th, by the way) He has led an eskrimador's life. His passion for his art is incredible and his desire to teach and share is endless. Whenever people question his "credentials," I always ask them this... So many Filipino grandmasters claim to have had as many as a hundred so-called death matches, yet Atillo claims only four. Using your skeptical mind, who is more likely lying?
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now, your dragging everybody and their mother, (hell, even bruce lee!!!), to justify a lie.
why not just be a man about it... ADMIT THE ATILLO VS. BACON WAS A FABRICATION, SAY SORRY TO THOSE YOU GUYS HAVE OFFENDED, AND BE DONE WITH IT.
no need to call the rest of the FMA community liars, because of the precedence you guys have set yourselves!!! that is insanely idiotic. just say sorry, and be a man about it!!!
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Woof Cypher:
You are right, many do feel as you say-- many, but not all.
A story: Grandmaster Atillo of Balintawak tells the story of his famous match with Grandmaster Cacoy Canete of Doce Pares. He will show the letter signed by both of them agreeing to the rules-- one of which was "No Grappling".
If grappling does not/can not happen in the absence of headgear, why was this rule necessary? Why was it insisted upon by GM Atillo? Could it be that GM CC, whose system "Eskrido" is a blend of ESKRIma and JuDO?
Then, in telling the story he will show you the picture from the paper the next day showing CC holding him in a headlock and say "You see! He cheated!"
If the particular traditionalists you reference are right, how can this be?
I'm not going to use terms like Arnis, Eskrima, Kali, Silat, or Kali-silat :twisted: but what of all the various FMA systems with grappling, both in the presence of weapons and not?
If grappling does not happen in the presence of weapons, what about the clinch material in the MILITARY system of old Thailand? Or in Burma's Bando? What about the various Silats? -- are none of these from the Philippines, or is the argument that the FMA lack what these systems have? :twisted:
Speaking from my own experience against many opponents I can pretty consistently enter with my head untouched-- and so can many of the people I have taught. This can be seen in DBMA #4 Attacking Blocks and more in the to-be-released "Stickgrappling-Clinch"
Yes, this skill was developed in part by surviving mistakes thanks to headgear. And yes, many of the people who fight at our Gatherings exploit headgear to create grappling-- often because they lack adequate stick skills. And yes, shooting low is pretty unsound as a general rule in a stick fight.
But still the assertion based upon experience remains: Grappling can be consistently created in a way that does not rely upon protective gear.
In DMBA our clinch material is a blend principally of Inosanto Blend (FMA) Krabi Krabong (Thai) Bando (Burma) Silat (various, including Philippines) BJJ (Brazil) and wrestling (America).
On the ground it is a blend of Inosanto, Bando, and BJJ.
Just because emotions behind the printed word can readily be misunderstood, please allow to plainly state that all the forgoing is said in cheery, friendly spirit.
Woof,
Crafty Dog
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now, your dragging everybody and their mother, (hell, even bruce lee!!!), to justify a lie.
why not just be a man about it... ADMIT THE ATILLO VS. BACON WAS A FABRICATION, SAY SORRY TO THOSE YOU GUYS HAVE OFFENDED, AND BE DONE WITH IT.
no need to call the rest of the FMA community liars, because of the precedence you guys have set yourselves!!! that is insanely idiotic. just say sorry, and be a man about it!!!
In days gone by, when someone such as this illiterate imbecile impugned the honor of a gentleman such as GM Atillo, he was obliged to meet him at an appointed time to answer for his fatmouth statements. They called it dueling, and it really is a shame we don't do it much anymore. From my standpoint, Atillo had and has the balls to challenge grandmasters to no-armour stick fights, something this imbecile would never even consider... From GM Atillo, I have this simple retort: "If he wants to insult me and call me a liar, have him first tell me his name." That is what a man would do, imbecile. So... show us that you are a man. Tell us your name, not your screen name but your real name, first and last, and then tell us how we can arrange to have the two of you meet.
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Woof All:
Just checking in from Joshua Tree where I have taken the family for a mini-vacation; the first is a number of years.
I like keeping a loose leash on things here, but it appears it is time to give a little tug on it: Folks, please lets take a deep breath and also lets start signing our names. Thank you.
That's all I have time for at the moment.
Woof,
Crafty Dog
PS: Bruce Lee was 155 and dropped to 128. Cacoy never claimed the number of death matches cited earlier. I have read Tom Meadows' authorized but unpublished biography, and the number I recollect is 70 or so '''challenge matches" which is a different thing. Perhaps come of the other statements are similarly improved (viz the point they seek to make?) The reference to the game of Telephone is apt here. Tis a good idea to remember the pitfalls of hearsay.
PPS: Its Friday the 25th and I just would like to add that the 100 death matches claim on Cacoy appeared approximately last April in an English program in which the Dog Brothers were featured. In the segment after ours, it was made by Cliff Derry (Sp?) of New York who states himself to be a student of GM Cacoy.
I just received my copy of this program just two days ago from the TV station-- a mere 9 months late. I did enjoy the extent of the coverage on our piece on our message. I still think that Tom Meadow's unpublished yet authorized biography on GM Cacoy probably is the most reliable written source, but it is through programs and (mis)statements in such programs that dubious data replicate.
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The term ?death match? is actually a misnomer when referring to eskrima matches in the Philippines. I don?t think there is even a term in Filipino that easily translates into ?death match?. The term ?death match? originated here in the U.S., probably coined by the early American students of old eskrimadors in Hawaii and California, who knew little of the cultural nuances of the matches their teachers spoke about.
During the late 1800s and early 1900s in the Philippines, eskrima matches were common during barrio, later barangay, fiestas throughout the Archipelago. Dumog, or Filipino wrestling, matches were also popular. Town fiestas usually lasted a few days in honor of their local Saints. A tradition which still continues today, fiestas were a time for each town to open up to other townsfolk to share food and celebrate in entertainment. It was during this time that traveling companies would act out the popular ?Doce Pares?, and ?Moro-Moro? plays in front of eager children. Sipa matches were also popular, a game not unlike volleyball but instead of using your hands to hit the ball you hit the empty ball with your feet. So, it is in this context that eskrima matches were made popular, after the Spanish banned the natives of the Philippine islands from carrying blade weapons. In the early 1900s, boxing matches also became popular during town fiestas.
There were some eskrimadores who made a career out of attending these matches, challenging local eskrimadors. Reasons vary, some were doing it for the prizes, others just do prove their skills, but more commonly, many of these traveling eskrimadores did it for the women.
There weren?t too many rules to these matches. There were no protective gears. But, the two opponents were able to choose what sort of match they were going to engage in. There was a match called juego sinyas. Juego is Spanish for game, while sinyas simply means to signal. So, a juego sinyas match was the safest of all matches, involving no contact, in which hits are announced when nearing the opponents head. There is juego toque (to touch) in which hits were established by controlled stick contacts to the opponent. Some of these controlled hits left bruises, but nothing serious. Then finally, and more popular, were the Juego Todo matches, which translaltes to ?all out game?. This was what most respectable eskrimadors engaged in. Anything goes, one man always wins.
But, unlike the Americanized version of these matches, they don?t usually result in death. When the lesser eskrimador was severely hit, he would get knocked out or just simply surrender. Deaths were not really appropriate for fiestas. And the winning eskrimador who had just killed, would certainly not get laid after the match. So, unlike the American versions, eskrimadors, both the lesser and the better one, actually took great care not to escalate the match to death.
It is sad to see that non-Filipino and Filipino-American students have to portray their teachers and other eskrimadors as blood thirsty lunatics, whose solely purpose was to kill, to be proud of them. It is sad, that they do not remember them as men with other passions, not just the martial arts. Many of these eskrimadors, were lovers of women, of music, wine, nature, freedom, and life. They were by no means simple mindless murderers.
Also, keep in mind that the Philippines is not a ?no man?s land?, there is a justice system present. Murder is not looked lightly upon in this country, as any other state with the rule of law.[/b]
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In defense to these old timers, who have now been labeled as liars, by men who know so little about them and about the tradition they were born out of, allow me to explain their ?death match? records and the ?hero myths? they surrounded themselves with.
I was just thinking about this whole "lies" business... Isn't Floro Villabrille credited with at least 60 death matches? Doesn't Cacoy Canete claim to have been undefeated in 100 death matches? Bobby Taboada says he's had 30 death matches, several of which were against multiple opponents.
I am not certain about the numbers, you have posted for GM Cacoy Canete, you should verify this number before sarcastically making an example out of it (GM Canete will be in L.A. this coming June). But, your numbers for GM Floro Villabrille and GM Bobby Taboada are close enough. You, of course, are just rounding off. Had you asked GM Villabrille, you would have gotten a consistent number. And if you asked GM Bobby Taboada, you will definitely get a consistent number. In addition to that, he?ll tell you the details of each of these challenges and encounters, even the various witnesses of these fights for you to verify if you so wish (GM Taboada will be in Las Vegas in October).
The reason why these eskrimadors, would never make up numbers about their matches is perfectly illustrated in this forum. If they falsify and make up matches, people will know, people will talk, and then the eskrimador?s reputation becomes tarnished, again as we?ve seen in this forum.
And what about Angel Cabales? Does anybody really believe there's a "cave of death" on Cebu that only he seemed to know anything about and, lo and behold, only he was able to fight his way through?
?Hero Tales?, to use an Anthropological term, are common among warrior and fighers of old. This is true among the Vikings, the Arabs, the Samurais, and Sioux warriors. It is a strategy, whether understood or not, of deception and misinformation. Sun Tzu was once quoted, ?If you are one, appear to be many?. This strategy of engaging in ?hero tales? is also true among Filipinos.
While a eskrimador?s matches are for everyone to witness--public domain, open to scrutiny. The purpose of a eskrimador?s ?hero tale? is to engage his opponent and future opponents in psychological warfare. This is where the use of orasyones and anting-antings (amulets) come in. Some embellish tales of supernatural teachers. Some go as far as to claim supernatural powers themselves. These, unlike their records of matches, are not meant to be verified. This should be obvious. The purpose of these tales is purely strategic.
In fairness, to GM Angel Cabales, it wasn?t he who claimed to have gone through your sarcastic description of this rite of passage, but rather his teacher, Felicisimo Dizon, who was related to the Ilustrisimos of Bantayan Island. And the rite of passage, you described, didn?t happen in Cebu, but rather in Mount Banahaw, in Laguna, Philippines. Agapito Ilustrisimo (an uncle of Tatang Ilustrisimo), who was later affiliated with the Katipunan movement, headed a religious group at the foot of Mount Banahaw, long since been held as a sacred mountain prior to the arrival of the Spaniards. It was here that Dizon became part of this group. Millenarian cults are still present in Mt. Banahaw to this day, and many of these cults still undertake rites of passage very similar to what GM Angel Cabales described.
Before you accuse all Filipino eskrimadors of being no good liars, atleast try to understand the cultural background and the historical context in which they have come from. But, more importantly, get your story straight before you boldly make accusations, God forbid, we get into another senseless argument about ?a student who defeated his teacher who had cancer, 30 years his senior?.
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Woof All:
Still in Joshua Tree:
Death Match: Interesting read. Nice touch to admit the role of sex appeal in all this :wink: o==8 I have heard that the term "Death Match" referred to an all out fight (a "Juego Todo"?) wherein the participants signed a letter asking friends and family to forgo revenge should they fall. In other words, death was not the intended result, butrecognized as a real possibility. In your opinion, (or anyone with an informed basis for theirs) is this accurate?
Woof,
Crafty Dog
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"Anyway, I don't think that Alvin and Dennis should be vilified. They undoubtedly intended to help GM Atillo, whom I know knows very little, if anything, about running a website. Like the old telephone game, what went into their ears one way simply came out another. I think it's human nature, particularly amongst youthful devotees of a charismatic teacher like Atillo, to embellish the truth and make a sparring session into a fight, and a fight into a death match."
the telephone game analogy would make sense, if there was a 3rd party, 4th party, or even a 5th party involved in the story telling. but, the little fabrication was only between the website owners, students of Atillo, and Atillo himself--teacher and student. the two boys heard it directly from Atillo.
there is a world of difference between a friendly little sparring session and a real match in which GM Bacon was defeated. it's like saying, "i'm going to the philippines and i'm going to Mars". there's only 3 ways this fabrication would have continued.
1. the boys who own the website lacked analytical skills to differentiate between a fight and a training session. but, the fact that these two boys were able to make a website, means there analytical skills are pretty normal.
2. there was some communication flaw between Atillo and these two boys, a misunderstanding due to faulty communication. but, the boys and Atillo speak the same language. do they not?
3. Atillo has never seen the website, in which he was proclaimed Supreme GrandMaster of Balintawak, having beaten GM Bacon himself. He was never able to reprimand the two boys, who spread all these lies about him and his place in Balintawak, because he never saw it. but, again, this would be high unlikely, since the boys created the site to honor their new found master. so, he had to have seen it.
http://pub9.ezboard.com/fexxeslogikfrm9.showMessage?topicID=15.topic
"As far as Atillo and Bacon. There has been contradicting views about it. Students of both sides claim victory. The fact is, there was a fight that occurred which brought about the breakdown of the old Balintawak group. This was caused mainly because Villasin was presidnet for too long and didn't want to step down. It occurred in Punta Princesa where I grew up. " -- Alvin Ylaya
"Atillo himself claims that he won. I'm sure Bacon's students claim the opposite. Atillo was in his 30's and Bacon was in his 60's when this happened. It's really unfortunate, sportsmanship is really not a Filipino quality. We don't accept defeat graciously. As for me, I of course agree with Atillo until otherwise proven. " -- Alvin Ylaya
"I agree with Alvin's statement. I grew up in Cebu also and we know Ising's reputation, but I will have to close this topic now cuz it's getting a little hostile in here. " -- Dennis Flores
that's from their forum. the "facts" they put up on the website (before they took it down) were more authorative about this match. that's not just some silly misunderstanding you get from the telephone game, that's a total fabrication there.
simply put, it is a big lie. whether by the two boys or Atillo himself, there are only two options here.
now let us examine the two likely motivations:
1. the two boys just probably wanted to please their master, and make themselves look cool by stating that they learned from the best of the best in Balintawak (if you can beat Anciong Bacon, you gotta be the best).
2. or, and i know this is the hardest pill to swallow, it was Atillo himself that fabricated the story to feed his own ego.
logically speaking, these are the only two possibilities.... either this fabrication was the fault of two bright-eyed novice students, or it was GM Atillo. now, you guys have to choose...
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Guro Crafty,
I beg of you. Can you please just delete this whole thread already? This little discussion is making our GM and school look bad, not to mention this is also totally useless talk. Thank You.
PatriK[/i]
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"There is a great deal of hard lying in the world; especially among people whose characters are above suspicion."
---Benjamin Jowett
"When I tell any truth it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those who do."
---William Blake
"We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter."
---Denis Diderot
"The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off."
---Mal Pancoast
"The moment we begin to fear the opinions of others and hesitate to tell the truth that is in us, and from motives of policy are silent when we should speak, the divine floods of light and life no longer flow into our souls."
---Elizabeth Cady Stanton
"A lie never lives to be old."[/b]
--- Sophocles
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now, your dragging everybody and their mother, (hell, even bruce lee!!!), to justify a lie.
why not just be a man about it... ADMIT THE ATILLO VS. BACON WAS A FABRICATION, SAY SORRY TO THOSE YOU GUYS HAVE OFFENDED, AND BE DONE WITH IT.
no need to call the rest of the FMA community liars, because of the precedence you guys have set yourselves!!! that is insanely idiotic. just say sorry, and be a man about it!!!
So... show us that you are a man. Tell us your name, not your screen name but your real name, first and last, and then tell us how we can arrange to have the two of you meet.
hahahaha... first you guys lie about something big. then you guys get caught with your pants down. then instead of retracting and saying sorry for the lie, you guys change it to "it wasn't a fight it was actually just a training session". and now you're offering challenges? no thanks, i don't fight liars, cuz when i beat the hell out of you guys, you'll just turn around and say, "there was a no grappling rule!!! so, we win". just say sorry, instead of offering challenges, and save your honor.
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Woof All:
I don't like using the choke collar, but my doggie nose detects a whiff of things about to go south from here. Lets wrap this one up please.
Crafty Dog
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well I appreciate the help but I just want to let the rest of you know that I could care less what other poeple think about us or GM Atillo and I care less about what happened long ago. What happened in the past is nothing important to me, i'm simply telling a story that came out directly from GM Atillo and if there was a mistake, only GM Atillo himself will make me change it.
http://www.balintawak.com/
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So, Dennis if you've noticed in some previous posts someone was using my name. It wasn't me if you were wondering. If that's his real name then fine but if not, that's some sad attempt at trying to divide and conquer man - we're not gonna fall for that one again are we?
ingat!
Paolo David
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This has been a very interesting read. I read a few posts, then ended up reading it all from start to finish. I do not know personally the parties involved, but I am familiar with Balintawak. It is good to know that stories like these are not left to linger, but are instead critically examined. A sort of quality control for our community. I just wanted to make some points about the quote below. I am not trying to offend anyone further, I just wanted to pose a couple of questions for thought.
Being that the 1983 match between these two men was a "sport fight," why is it that Canete's clear breach of the rules he agreed to abide by is ignored and his "victory" upheld? I have a high-resolution digital photograph of the original rules for this fight - a document that both men signed - which states categorically that it was to be a stick-fighting-only match. If either man resorted to punching, kicking or grappling, he was immediately supposed to be declared the loser. I took this photograph myself. It has not been altered or retouched, and I would be happy to put it up here. The bottom line is, Canete clearly broke the rules, so he was the loser. The newspaper picture that everyone keeps referring to is irrefutable evidence of his breach.
Now, I?m not a Master in Eskrima, but isn?t this art suppose to be a complete art? Meaning there is tripping, punching, grappling, slapping, locking, kicking, disarming, elbowing, poking and kneeing involved. Without all these facets to Eskrima, then what you have is just a basic stick fight akin to Olympic style fencing. Which by the way is really boring and unrealistic, and most importantly, cannot gauge a Eskrimador?s complete skills.
Secondly, I wanted to know if these rules were insisted upon by one particular party, or was this just a general rule for all Eskrima fights in the Philippines?
Personally (and this is just my humble opinion) if GM Atillo was a better fighter than GM Canete, then he should have been able to resist and escape GM Canete?s signature grappling/judo techniques. I respect the fact that both fought without protection. But, Rules or No Rules, as someone who has also participated in full contact sparring sessions, knowing full well that these sessions can go to the ground since grappling is part of Eskrima, I think GM Canete did win the fight in question. (but, again this is just my humble opinion). Thank you for letting me share, and God Bless.
--Bob
P.S.-- Guro Crafty, I commend you for running a very open forum, in which opinions and ideas flow freely without hindrance.
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i'm simply telling a story that came out directly from GM Atillo and if there was a mistake, only GM Atillo himself will make me change it.
well, this is staight from the horse's mouth. it should now be obvious that this was not some telephone game story telling gone bad. this was a total fabrication told by atillo himself to two highly impressionable students lacking the common sense to check the story for inconsistencies before posting it on the web.[/size]
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""""... At 65 years of age, I know that my little 5'2" instructor is still ready and willing to prove the efficacy of his art in battle. If you have a problem with anything he says, step up, but leave your knee pads, street hockey gloves and fencing headgear at home. Ising has gone at it for real. He deserves your respect... so put up or shut up.""""
hahaha, this is true. I think people here are more JEALOUS than anything else they hate they hate the fact that ising is now in the USA teaching his art. DONT HATE THE PLAYA HATE THE GAME.. as for put up or shut up.. i dont think you will get any from these modern arnis, sorry michigan balintawak practitioners..
and yes if you break the rules which you have agreed upon, you lose.
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also who really cares what Ising's students are saying on the website at least they have evidence to back something up.. they dont complain about you guys saying your teacher is the true balintawak GM and rightfull heir!!
At least Ising has had documented fights..
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Woof All:
OK, my intuitive sense of things is that it is time to muzzle this one. I now go to figure out how to lock this one down.
Crafty Dog