Dog Brothers Public Forum

Just in case some of you think otherwise....
Let it be known, that Robin Padilla is the one responsible for claiming on this forum that Kali is the mother art, not Guro Crafty.

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"but to say "kali is the mother art and is found in the philippines", then be at a completely lost to support that claim is questionable."
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Again, to support this fact we have evidence from Edgar Sulite's books. We have evidence from Dan Inosanto's Books who learned of Kali from LaCoste. It is also fact that Villabrille called his art Kali. Now, did one day, Villabrille and LaCoste hang out in the Asparagus fields of Stockton and decided to be propagandists and make a propaganda for FMA by coining the phrase "Kali"? I don't think so.

Does anyone know if Villabrille and Lacoste even met?  

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"If the word, with the definition it has been given (not its muslim/arabic sounding cognate), does not exist in the Philippines now within a span of 50 to 100 years, we must hold this word (with its meaning) suspect."
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50 years huh? OK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Yambao book published in 1947? If so, then Kali is about 3 years short of 50 years. Close enough.

What about Arnis and Eskrima? Is there any evidence within a span of 50 to 100 years that these terms preceed Kali (the mother art)?

Hmmm...Maybe someone can track down the Yambao/Mirafuentes people and inquire about Kali (the mother art).

Rodger,

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"and here's a little piece of trivia about Mr. Sulite's old work: Edgar Sulite is from Leyte, he is Bisaya. The two teachers he credits for his art (LAMECO) are Caballero of Eskrima de Campo and Antonio Ilustrisimo. Both are from Cebu, both are Bisaya, both used Eskrima. Of the 40 (it's been awhile since I read the book) or so Masters featured in the book, guess how many are Bisaya and how many use Eskrima?"
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Yes. Both Caballero and Ilustrisimo called their art Eskrima. However, Ilustrisimo's section in the "Masters of Arnis Kali and Eskrima" is the only one called Kali, the mother of Arnis and Eskrima.

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"Makes one wonder where Mr. Edgar Sulite got wind of the whole 'Kali' usage and why he switch to this? "
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From my readings I would say Punong Guro Edgar probably learned of Kali, the mother art from Antonio Ilustrisimo.


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"1. What region in the Philippines is Kali used and practiced?

2. Which tribe, or language group practices Kali?

3. If you can answer 1 and 2, does this group or groups use the title Kali to mean the original art?

4. What is a the practioner of Kali called? "
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1. Kali, the mother art is used and practice throughout all of the Philippines.

2. Everyone who picks up a stick in the name of Arnis or Eskrima is essentially practicing Kali, the mother art even if they don't know, deny or refuse to acknowledge it.

3. Some people have acceptd Kali as the name of the Mother art while some still call it Arnis or Eskrima.

4. A practicioner of Kali is called a Mandirigma, Arnistador, Eskrimador, Kalista, Dogbrother, FMA'er, Martial Artist etc.

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"A most reasonable stance. If you think about it, Filipinos are pretty open to new terms, and made up terms."
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If you think about it, this is probably how Arnis ended up replacing Kali. But let us be thankful for men like Floro Villabrille, Antonio Ilustrisimo, Edgar Sulite and Dan Inosanto for their efforts in preserving Kali and teaching us  that this is the mother art with roots in pre Hispanic times.
Had it not been for their efforts Kali may very well have been rendered extinct.

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"Let's see: We have "Doug" (no last name) relaying hearsay from "a well respected practitioner and researcher in the FMA" who was relaying hearsay from "a well known face in the art".
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I don't know too much about Guro Dan's relationship with Manong Juan Lacoste. If anybody here would know it would be Guro Crafty.  But even if Guro Dan studied Lacoste Kali for a minimal amount of time which is doubtful, you can learn from your teacher that Kali is the mother art in as much time as it takes to say it.

But it sounds like Doug is one of those crazy Jeet Kune Do guys who like to player hate on Guro Dan.

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Rodger,

What's the Arnis propaganda consist of exactly? Because there is none. No one is going around saying "Arnis is the ancient Mother Art". It's just something the Tagalogs have come to name their art. No propaganda involved.

The term Arnis came as a result of Spanish Propaganda. Please read my post regarding this matter again. Arnis is definitelt not a Tagalog word. And true, no one is going around saying "Arnis is the ancient mother art". That is wrong. They know the right way is that Kali is the ancient mother art.

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So, now Kali is Indonesian? Do you even know what "tjakelele" is in Indonesian? Or where exactly this is in Indonesia? Can you answer this for us? I am waiting for you to say 'Kali' is the Hindu goddess of war as well.

Yes. The inhabitants of Luzon, Visaya, and Mindanao are primarily from Indonesia. Naturally Kali's roots are Indonesian.  

If you are waiting for me to say Kali is the Hindu Goddess of war as well, I will not because that is a different Kali. That Kali is the one you see in New Age Yoga Studios.

As far as "The Secrets of Kalis" Ilustrisimo book is concerned. I've read it. I read it the very day it came out in 2002. I do not recall the book mentioning anything about them calling it KaliS Ilustrisimo as a result of the topic we are discussing. Also, they changed the name to Kalis Ilustrisimo after Tatang had died. I am also inclined to believe the change to Kalis from Kali has absolutely nothing to do with this issue.

Tuhon Rafael, the information you researched regarding Ukali is very interesting. Ukali and kali are very popular words used by many different ethnic tribes.

Well SOME of us have both our Spanish and tribal names!

Yes! And I sincerely hope we preserve the name of Kali just as we preserve those tribal names. Harmony among names for the arts is very possible. We just have to accept that Kali is the mother art.

Whoops! Forgot to log in again on that last post. hehe

How could Kali be neither ancient or Filipino?? and How is it so obvious?

Just because some people in the Philippines never heard the word it is obvious that Kali is neither ancient nor Filipino??

Then where do anting anting come from??? Do they come from Arnis? How about the Kampilan? Is that an arnis weapon as well?

I have a book written by Anima that lists describes Filipino Martial Arts.
The book includes, Buno, Dumog, Finger Wrestling, and Kali. It says that Arnis is the sanitized version of Kali. This book was written and published in the Philippines by a Filipino long before the internet was invented to allow for this silly debate. You should get the book too. You will recognize that Kali comes from the Philippines and not America.

Kali is the mother art. It employs the use of weapons such as the Kris, Kampilan, Barong. It evolved into Arnis/Eskrima after being outlawed by the Spanish.

If anyone is going to say that Kali does not exist, or is not ancient of Filipino then prove it.

I made that last post by the way. Sorry but I forget to log in. hehe[/img][/code]

Hi! I am new and this is my first post.

I was just wondering if anyone has ever been in or witnessed a real Kali fight. Meaning, the fight was in the street and there were no rules. And if you did see one or have been in one, what type of techniques were used and did they have weapons?

I have never seen a real Kali fight so hopefully someone can answer.


Thanks!