Dog Brothers Public Forum

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If the stabbed student thinks the zero tolerance policy is even remotely a functional idea he just proves he has not received a functional education: 1) he was STILL stabbed even with zero tolerance, 2) it isn't really zero tolerance - the students still have pencils/pens/books/belts/scarf and a few hundred other weapons some of which are issued by the school, 3) until quite recently young males carried a pocket knife to school from sometime around the 4th grade, and 4) the only people who follow the rules (or the intent of the rule) are those who wouldn't be a problem without the rule

So the student who was stabbed should not have any input on school safety?  If he were to validate your opinion, would his education then be functional?  If he does believe that zero tolerance policies might make any difference, no matter how small, his whole education is nonfunctional?  If he believes that zero tolerance policies are 10% effective and 90% ineffective, does that still invalidate his entire education?  At what percentage does he have to support zero tolerance polices or consider that they might make some small difference before that one idea renders the whole of his educational experience nonfunctional?  After the Columbine shootings, if any staff or students who lived considered for a moment that a zero tolerance policy might have made some small difference, did that thought invalidate their entire education and their experience of that event?  If any of the victims had ever considered the small difference a zero tolerance policy might make, did that prove that the education they were receiving, up until they were killed, was nonfunctional?  How sad for them then that they had to be there on campus that day, since the education they were persuing was nonfunctional anyway due to their hypothetical thoughts on one school rule.

Well, how can I say this.  No, the student who was stabbed, if he thinks a zero tolerance policy helped him in any way, should not have any input into school safety policy.  1) he can't reason a) he WAS stabbed WITH a zero tolerance policy in effect b) HE was the one unarmed during the event; 2) he doesn't have a remote grasp of history a) WWII/European policy toward Germany b) Rome/Carthage c) WWII Japan/USA; and 3) he doesn't understand the basics of the US and Cal Constitutions.

If the staff/students at Columbine/Paducah/VT and any other place with a zero tolerance policy think that policy helped them in any way, then yes, they were doubly wasting time on a nonfunctional education.  If the student can't THINK and REASON the education is wasted.  This rule has been prove time and again to be a) ineffective; b) at best a feel good we did something response; and c) teaches the children to look at government for the solution to life's problems (again they lack basic understanding of the Constitution).

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what a person without the ability to reason at a functional level thinks about a policy is of little concern to me and it is "just following (STUPID) orders".  As my eldest told the principle at her Hawaiian school - if you can't control the kids, then you won't do anything to my daughter when she handles the problem

So, once a person gives any merit to zero tolerance policies, they are by your definition, "stupid", and all of their other opinions don't matter to you.  If your children were students at the school in question on this thread, once you found out that the principal enforces a zero tolerance policy, you would no longer listen to her thoughts about any of the other policies at the school, label her "stupid", and you would empower your children to make all decisions about which rules they feel they should and should not follow?  As I tell my classes all the time, "This place (the school) is not very good training for you.  I don't know of a lot of jobs where you can show up late, wear clothes that are not appropriate for work, be disrespectful to your boss and you superiors, leave your trash all over the place, constantly ask your boss, 'Why do I have to do this?', and do your work at a third grade level when you are 25 years old and think that not only is it okay, but that it's funny."

If an adult gives merit to zero tolerance ANY policy/issue which requires reason and thought is immediately suspect.  If that adult has a college education, then the college is suspect.  This isn't rocket science.  As for my children, they have the same requirements regardless of the idiocy in administration - they follow my rules.  That would be why the eldest told the principle my granddaughter would handle the problem since they wouldn't (and she did in spades).

As for your students working at the 3rd grade level, why are they not in the third grade?  Would that be the result of another admin policy of not hurting self esteem and passing them on?

We are working, everyday.  We're working through hypertension, stress-related heart attacks, and salaries (even with summer school) that are a joke based on comparable salaries in other industries.  We are working for those three kids in each class of thirty-eight that have had their educations hijacked by those kids who have been taught by their parents that their education has no value.  We are working through stress-related hair-loss, weight gain, and strokes.  We are working in a system that has been set up by politicians to destroy public education, or to use education like any other "hot" political item to get elected or stay in office.  We are working because our parents taught us that personal development and trying to be lifelong learners are goals that are worth preserving, even when students get the sh&% teased out of them by their gang friends for actually doing their work and maybe even enjoying the act of learning.  We are working for our kids because if you have actually spent much time in classrooms lately, the future looks like a scary place.

What do your health issues have to do with fixing the problem?  As for salaries, I hear the complaints every year.  I see the teachers driving 1-3 yr old SUV's.  I see them living in the same subdivisions as everyone else.  I see them with an average income of 1.5 (or more) times the local average with more time off than just about everyone else.  Not to mention you picked the vocation knowing what it paid.

So Grimel, it sounds like you have this national school violence problem solved.  In what school district do you serve as superintendant? I'll send you a resume.

Well, it isn't that hard.  The problem is all the educators want to be nice and progressive.  They keep trying to model our schools after California, NYC, Boston, and the rest of the "wonderful" schools nation wide.  Somehow, the more we "modernize" our methods and policies the more FUBAR the schools become.  Hmmm, wonder what we should do next??  Oh, yeah, get even more "modern" and increase government control.

Quote from: grimel on March 04, 2008, 02:58:02 PM

Quote from: michael on March 04, 2008, 07:16:15 AM

I have been wanting this DVD for some time, and plan on getting it soon. Thanks for the review.

Save time money, buy the whole set at one time.

Believe me, I would love to, but I am a poor working stiff.

And I'm not??

I like it.  It makes more sense than most instructors.  The whole series is good.  Top Dog was able to explain somethings my primary instructor has tried repeatedly to make me understand (it wasn't for a lack of trying on his part!).  Just a different way of communicating.

If America wants to blame their lack of parenting skills on teachers, fine. 

For some reason, my weekend job won't let me come here (WT and TPI yes, DB no go figure).

The zero tolerance insanity has nothing to do with lack of parenting.  Crafty showed excellent parenting and amazing restraint.  Zero tolerance is just stupidity without any basis in reason, logic, and historical fact.

I have issues with anyone who uses "just following orders" as an excuse.

As a teacher for the past five years in the section of a southern California school district that is literally on the wrong side of the tracks: I'm disturbed by the immediate assumption that the principal in question is "clueless".  The principal must have at least a bachelor's degree, a master's degree, several years spent in the classroom, and an administrative credential under her belt in order to have become a principal.

Having a BA/S, MA/S, several years in the classroom, some admin credential only shows a) how little she actually learned and b) that getting a master's degree implies nothing as to actual education.  She obviously missed history, philosophy, civics, and government classes.  Had she learned the basics at even the 8th grade level Crafty wouldn't have had to blindside her with the idea "zero tolerance" was in contradiction with California law and the general premise behind "zero tolerance" would be shot down some time shortly after the history student learned of the first war and it's conclusion.

I finally managed to drift my lazy self over here.  I've enjoyed reading many of Guru Crafty's comments and postings at my two online homes enough that I figured I should come join his home.