Dog Brothers Public Forum

Yeah, but the second one is $700 as opposed to $40! 

I definitely struggle with this issue, as I own a firearm, and I have a 3.5 year old son.  I have a small keypad safe on a high shelf in my closet where I keep my gun whenever I'm not carrying it.  It's definitely safe from my boy up there, but it really isn't very practical in a late-night home defense situation...

You seriously have no idea what nonsense you're spouting at this point.

This is simply in reference to you wildly guessing about how I train or what goes on at my gym, about which you clearly have no idea.

So in the context of a pure ground game(No striking).........how would you say you match up, with a college wrestler equal weight....being that your a brown belt BJJ.

A college wrestler, equal weight, with no submission or BJJ training would probably take me down, but have a hard time passing my guard with no strikes.  I'd like to think I'd eventually catch him in something, but you never know.  He might well beat me on points.  That happened in a no gi tournament last year, I went against a tough wrestler from VA Tech who had been training with a Lloyd Irvin school.  He got two takedowns, and narrowly escaped three tight submission holds...by dragging us into the crowd and having the ref stand us up each time. (That was actually the ref's fault, he should have been disqualified or docked points according to the rules).  Anyway, I lost that match 4-0.  But it was a great learning experience, and I hope to meet up with that guy again someday, just to see if a change of strategy will change the outcome.

In fact I would venture he could teach you a few things......wouldn't that be cool?

*sigh* He does, on a daily basis, which I've said before...I seriously feel like I'm talking to a wall.

You are correct, I am frustrated at this point.  But mostly for allowing myself to get sucked into this thread.  I felt the hook, I should have just swam away.

Actually, I changed my mind.  I'm no longer frustrated.  You win, Tom.  Wrestling rules, BJJ sucks and no one should ever train it.  Hopefully it will die out and never challenge the one true art that is wrestling again.  Enjoy your excellent thread as the crickets chirp.

Take Josh Koschek for example...a monster on the ground not super known for his subbmissions though I am fairly certain he can throw an arm bar if need be.......but he has really worked his stand up game to make himself a very formidable stand up fighter. open minded? college wrestler turned pro mma fighter with a bright future.

Also a purple belt in BJJ under Dave Camarillo at this point.  I know you hate when I do that, but you just keep setting it up for me. 

Like I said before......theres a reason why a lower belted bjj/ wrestler beats a balck belt in BJJ In mma and its not his bjj..........after all should not the BJJ black belt beat the lower ranked belted figther? (Please answer this) We have kind of danced around this question for some time.

The short answer is that the winner of each particular fight had attributes that outweighed his opponent's attributes and experience on that particular night.  For every example you give of a wrestling-based fighter defeating a BJJ-based fighter, I can give you a polar opposite example.  Seriously, if you want to go through that exercise we can, it's no problem.

You claim to have an open mind to wrestling but my guess is you fit into the same category as Royce does.....

Really?  Even though everything I've said to you would lead a reasonable person to the opposite conclusion? I hope you never sit on a jury.

I would venture more wrestlers have the open mind your talking about than do the BJJ guys.

Well, I suggest you go actually start training BJJ instead of just reading about it or eyeballing some videos, so you'll have some idea of what the hell you're talking about when you make sweeping generalizations about what all BJJ guys do, how they think, their techniques, their ego, etc.  You are living in the 90's...with a few of the Gracie's, ironically.

In fact you talk about how open minded your wrestlers are.......When was the last time you let your D-1 Champ teach a class?      My guess is you like to think your teaching him as "your guy"

He's "my guy" in that he sought me out to teach him and considers me to be his "BJJ coach".  He also has a "striking coach" and even a "wrestling coach" and a "strength and conditioning coach".  Together, we make up a " coaching team".  He thinks we all have something to offer, and can make him a better fighter.  Isn't that cool?

"My" D-1 champ taught takedowns at my class last year prior to his senior season; now that he's back, I'll have him do it again very soon.  Right now, he's getting ready to fight, so he's naturally focusing more on training than teaching.  I've also had several guest Judo instructors teach class for me this past year.  Anyone who comes into my gym who has something to offer is given the opportunity to share it with the rest.  You seriously have no idea what nonsense you're spouting at this point.

Pure wrestling? I don't train many pinning combinations or par terre work, but I do train a lot of takedowns and takedown defense, from both freestyle and greco ties and setups.  My goals involve BJJ/Sub Wrestling and MMA, so certain aspects of "pure" wrestling don't apply as much.  If I train for those tournaments later this year, I will spend time training more "pure" wrestling, so I don't embarrass myself more than necessary on certain rules and whatnot.

While I am by no means stellar, I do take a certain pride in that a number of good wrestlers have asked me where I wrestled after training with me, whatever that is worth.  I get a lot of weird looks when I tell them I was a volleyball player. 

Pat Miletich in my opinion was a mediocore fighter.....

That's a pretty ballsy statement to make, but we'll let that slide.  What do you think of him as a trainer?

If nothing else, I admire your ability lower your head and smash down the walls of reason.

So then Jeff you agree with Crafty's post?

Absolutely.  Royce should have followed Matt Hughes example by cross-training...and a few months cross training is not going to be enough to deal with someone who has been doing it for years and years.  Matt spent most of his fighting career training to blend striking, wrestling, and jiu-jitsu with BJJ Black Belt Pat Miletich (under Oswaldo Alves and Sergio Montiero, I think).  Royce focused almost exclusively on jiu-jitsu his whole life.  While mastery of one style will get you pretty far, it is not enough against a seasoned, cross-trained veteran athlete like Hughes.

http://onthemat.com/wiki/index.php/List_of_BJJ_Black_Belts

I do have respect for BJJ..... I just no longer think its magic as it was when Royce introduced it to the UFC....so many years ago........

Again, no one here is saying that it is magic, you are just adamantly repeating that it isn't.  Which is cool.  You are preaching to a very open-minded choir.  We are just saying it is something pretty worthwhile.

Crafty is wise.

I can almost feel the hook sinking into my lip.

I had a great time training with Greg Nelson at a Pedro Sauer BJJ camp a few years ago.  Greg is a BJJ black belt under Pedro, and showed us a lot of cool tricks.  One thing I found interesting was that during one conversation, Greg really stressed how important training with the gi was for MMA fighters.  He had just gotten back from Japan after cornering Sean for a Pride event (one of the Bushidos, I think).  He said he spent a long time talking with the head coach for Chute Boxe, Rudimar Fedrigo; Rudimar made a point to say how all his guys train with the gi and how important he thinks it is for their technical development.  I'm not sure how much time Sean puts in with the gi these days, but he holds a brown belt, for whatever that is worth.

I'm with peregrine, if BJ comes in shape and a little pissed off, he will win.  But both guys are great, well-rounded fighters and it is going to be fun to watch no matter what.  I think the last pure Wrestling vs. BJJ fight we'll ever see was probably Severn vs. Gracie.

Hopefully I was able to give a feel for the balance of my training.  I think our discussion on the necessity of training both wrestling and BJJ to be successful at the highest levels of modern MMA has pretty much played itself out, and hopefully we're both the wiser for it.

"If your honest, about the Penn state champ you got traiining in your gym. You would admit hes way out of your league.
And he  can probalbly maul most guys in your BJJ School that are his weight and probably much larger.
To say other wise......I simply refuse to believe.
Not saying at all, that you can't teach him something.
his ground game is obviously already world class."

Why would I be anything other than honest?  He could indeed maul everyone in my school...but he chooses not to.  He doesn't want to show off his wrestling pinning combinations...he wants to learn BJJ.  Unlike most of the wrestlers who walk through my door and want to train "ultimate fighting", he is extremely relaxed, concerned about learning proper technique, and adjusts his level of intensity according to the person he is working with and the goal of the session.  All that said, he is an insane freak of nature.  His hands are so big  and fingers so long that they wrap around my wrist twice.  He has incredible strength and amazing flexibility.  He learns everything VERY quickly, and makes up new stuff all the time.  He made up a kneebar from half-guard bottom last week that no one ever showed him, he just saw it in his mind and thought it would work.  His positional control and transitions are fantastic, and he is taking to the submission game like lighting - I have a feeling that submissions will be a big part of his MMA game.  But probably from the top or from his opponent's back for a while, of course.

He is obviously way out of my league in many aspects of grappling.  My goal is to make him way out of my league in all aspects of grappling, and help him achieve the goals he has set.  The sky is definitely the limit for him.

Best,

Jeff

Swamped at work this morning, more soon!

I'm not at all concerned by your skepticism; a little skepticism is healthy.  If you answer my question as to who you currently train BJJ with, or have trained with in the past, I'll be more than happy to give you my training and competition resume.  Get yours ready too.   I personally don't think mine is particularly impressive, many others have done much more with their 32 years.  But it has been intense enough and well rounded enough to give me a decent perspective and make me keep an open mind.  Can you say the same?

BTW, you'll notice that I posted under my real name, gave an introductory bio, and gave the name and location of my school in my first post.  I don't exaggerate any of my training or competition, as it's pretty easy to verify these days.

But let's stay on topic for a minute.  Maybe something has been lost in the sudden urge to verify each others' credentials; my sole assertion is this:

If you are saying that someone coming from an extensive wrestling background only needs a small amount of submission training to be successful at the highest levels of MMA, I respectfully disagree.  I think that about sums it up.

Hello all,

I apologize in advance for the long post!  A little background on me: I’m a BJJ brown belt under Ricardo De La Riva and consider jiu-jitsu to be my overall style, though I have trained wrestling, judo, sambo, CSW, Kali/Escrima, Thaiboxing and other styles back in the day.  While I’ve never entered a Gathering, I used to train Kali a good bit, and have always been a big fan of the Dog Brothers.  I sparred full contact with the stick many times and took my share of stick-hickies (though I never stripped down to just a fencing mask – a lacrosse helmet was the thinnest shield my brain allowed me to don). In years past, I’ve fought in amateur kickboxing and MMA events; I am still an active competitor in BJJ and submission grappling tournaments.  I run a small BJJ school in PA, and I’m fortunate enough to train with ex-All American and National Champion wrestlers on a regular basis.  Several of them are now coming to me to help prepare them for adventures in MMA.

Perhaps I need to let them know that seeking me out was a mistake, and all they really need to do is go train more wrestling.

Tom, while I don’t really expect to change your mind, I hope I can make you see how your good natured-yet-dismissive attitude towards BJJ is not only antiquated, but counter-productive to your own training and those around you. 

Nearly every top MMA team has a high level BJJ/Submission coach, whether their fighters hold belt rankings or not.  Every team has a striking coach.  Every team has a wrestling coach. Every team has a strength and conditioning coach.  Each one is a vital aspect of modern martial arts training.   

We saw what happened years ago when a pure BJJ stylists met pure wrestling stylists.  The wrestlers usually got submitted.  Then the wrestlers learned enough BJJ to defend submissions and pass the guard.  Then the BJJ guys got pounded.  Then the BJJ guys learned wrestling takedowns and striking.  Then the strikers learned enough wrestling to sprawl and brawl, and  enough BJJ to survive on the bottom and get back to their feet. Then the BJJ guys and strikers realized they needed more strength and conditioning (something the wrestlers already had).  Then the wrestlers learned striking.  Then everyone started learning EVERYTHING, and wondered why they hadn’t done so in the first place.  Now it’s all one big happy family that punches, kicks, slams, and chokes each other to see who’s the best on any given Sunday.  The only thing still up for debate is “what style is best to use as a foundation for MMA?”  There are strong arguments to be made and examples to be given for each one, and I don’t presume to know the answer.  It often comes down to the individual, I think.

You asked “why do you insist that BJJ is so technical?”  Well, initially I didn’t, I was quoting our national wrestling champ who is enjoying his BJJ training, but now I’ll go ahead and insist on it as well.  That’s not to say wrestling (when done at a high level) can’t be very technical also.  I have been lucky enough to train with some VERY technical wrestlers over the years; they’ve helped my game immensely and given me a vast amount of respect for wrestling.  The contrast is that in BJJ, technical detail, relaxation, momentum, and timing are generally given emphasis over strength, speed, conditioning, and other physical attributes.  In wrestling, technique is often viewed as just another attribute which is given equal priority to the rest.  If you did something technically, great; but if you didn’t and it worked anyway, great.  In BJJ, success without technical precision in the training hall is frowned upon; in wrestling, success by any means available is usually encouraged. In BJJ, a coach might be overheard telling his students to relax and flow when sparring.  In wrestling, my coaches always said “Go harder!  Be rougher!  Be mean!”  A famous BJJ quote is “You have to flow with the go”.  Going and flowing are not things that are usually emphasized in wrestling.  There are some exceptions to this for sure, but in my experience, that has been the overall trend.

“Since colligate wrestling and BJJ are definetly contrasting arts, I would be intrested to hear how BJJ helped him maneuver his limbs in such a way that it helped him win his national title.
Surley it did not come from the guard position because that position is highly unfavorable to a wrestler.....we call it getting pinned
So please expound on your intresting statement that BJJ helped the guy win a national title.....”

Again, this was his statement, not mine.  And to clarify, his statement was that “the BJJ he trained… helped him maneuver his opponent’s limbs more efficiently “.  Not his – his opponent’s.  I trained with him at lunch today, and I asked him how he applied what he learned in BJJ during wrestling matches.  He was more than happy to show me.  He took the leverage points of the straight armlock that he learned (not rocket science, just physics) and he would use them to torque his opponent’s arms en route to getting a reversal.  He did it in a very clever way which to a referee would appear to be a harmless pulling on an opponent straight arm.  But he was actually creating pressure and applying a straight armlock, forcing his opponent to move unless he wanted his elbow damaged.  I would try to explain the exact positioning in text, but it would make this very long post even longer.  Anyway, some might say that moves like this are very common in wrestling, and I’m sure they are…but he developed this one, in this position, from his BJJ training.  Take it for what it’s worth.

While this particular wrestler did not say he used techniques from the guard (though his guard is getting pretty good), I have spoken to other wrestlers who also train BJJ, and several of them have used butterfly hook sweeps in actual wrestling matches.  If you’re not familiar, a butterfly guard does not have the practitioner lying flat on his back (which would of course be a pin), but has him sitting up on one hip or the other, usually controlling the top man with an underhook or overhook.  He then uses his insteps or “hooks” along with his opponent’s momentum and weight to reverse his opponent in a number of ways and come to the top position.  Not something that one would want to employ as a primary strategy in a wrestling match, but not a bad skill to have in a scramble.

“I would suggest......learn wrestling.......arm bars and RNC'S are not rocket science and any one can lay on their back with their legs wrapped around your waist.....(think wife/girl friend)”

Armbars may not be rocket science, but when you take into consideration every setup, every entry, every variation, every counter and re-counter, every grip break, every body type and energy that has to be adjusted for…it gets pretty complex.  Now apply that to every other submission, every sweep, every position, every guard pass, every positional escape – now you have BJJ, and it takes years to master.

“A good way for a 150lb average joe to get the back of his head power bombed off the side walk is.....pull gaurd on some enraged opponent.”

See, it’s statements like these that won’t let me let this dog (no pun intended) lie.  Do you REALLY think that all BJJ consists of is pulling guard and desperately fighting from there?  Have you ever FELT the control, precision, and pressure that comes from the top game of a high level BJJ athlete?  Who do you train with?  I only ask because that statement seems to indicate a lack of true understanding of BJJ strategy, and a lack of experience of training with someone with a crushing top game like Mario Sperry, for example.  For BJJ strategy, take Rickson Gracie for an example – clinch, takedown, guard pass, mount, backmount, choke.  Only use the guard if things go wrong and you are forced there.  When the opening arises, kick away and stand up or go for a reversal.  There is a reason most of his fights look the same; it’s BJJ strategy and BJJ tactics, combined with BJJ technique.

(As an aside, I would have loved to have seen Rickson and Mark Shultz fight MMA back in their primes.  I heard a story that they once trained together, they sparred for a very long time, and Rickson could not submit Shultz.  It would have been awesome to watch them go at it in the ring, to really see one of the best pure BJJ guys versus one of the best pure wrestlers.)

Back to the issues at hand.  The assertion that “GSP beat Matt Serra with takedowns and ground & pound = victory for pure wrestling” is a bad argument.  GSP beat Serra with a beautiful combination of MMA – every art that he studies was on display.  If it weren’t for his extensive striking training, he would not have been so comfortable defending and closing the distance on their feet.  If it wasn’t for his extensive wrestling training, he would not have been to execute such powerful and effective takedowns.  If it wasn’t for his strength and conditioning training, he would not have been able to maintain his power and intensity.  And if it wasn’t for his BJJ training, he would not have been able to control his opponent on the ground, pass his guard, and advance his position following a specific hierarchy, allowing him to strike freely and finish the fight.

This point you made is a good one; to be a good fighter, you don’t have to spend thousands of dollars to earn a BJJ Black belt.  But to compete at the highest levels, you do need to put in the time and training to actually learn and attain a high level of skill in the art, even if it does not become the foundation of your “A” fighting game.  JUST AS YOU DO WITH WRESTLING.  I'm sure you would laugh at the idea that someone could just learn a sprawl and expect to stay on their feet against a good wrestler.  You can't just train a little wrestling - you have to become a wrestler yourself.  And this, as you know takes a long time, and a lot of hard training.  Unfortuntely, you just don’t get a pretty colored belt for it.

Again, sorry for the long post - like you, most of this was written in a very good-natured manner.  I did, however, feel that some clarifications would be beneficial, and I hope the entire morning I spent writing all this crap wasn’t entirely wasted.

I haven’t earned the right to sign off with any kind of “woof”; but as the animal of choice at my gym is a hawk, I’ll give you an:

 AAAWWWWWWK!

 
Best,

Jeff Rockwell
Raptor Brazilian Jiu-jitsu
State College, PA