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Messages - Sun_Helmet

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Martial Arts Topics / Re: Boxing Thread
« on: December 23, 2008, 08:30:21 PM »
(from another forum)
Sugar Ray eats this Cuban guy alive for the 1976 Gold Medal.

1.)Always stays outside the Cuban's lead. Works his jab and jab-hook combos. Parry's the jab and puts a cross down the middle.

2.) When he moves right, He never moves into the cross, always laterally with his right hand up.

3.) His footwork is amazing. He does a great little move that the Cuban never catches. He takes one step to his right and then rolls left, getting the Cuban to "bite" on the right step and throw the left cross. Classic. A blueprint for righties everywhere.

My uncle worked in the administration at Sugar Ray's high school. Ray Leonard thought of him as a sort of mentor because my uncle was also a link to the Great Flash Elorde... he was very much into boxing. His son was a boxer in Elorde's stable prior to entering West Point. I asked my cousin about his meeting with Ray Leonard and he said that at that moment in time Ray Leonard's speed and mitt work was incredible to behold. He got the opportunity to spar a round with him but it wasn't serious sparring.

Ray Leonard was a good guy - when he won the gold in Montreal - he had my uncle there as a guest.

In his fight with Marvin Hagler, Ray Leonard did the mirror of what Manny did in the De La Hoya fight - he led with the strong hand instead of the jab and then spun off --  it flustered Hagler.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Boxing Thread
« on: December 20, 2008, 03:29:04 PM »
DIAZ Interview

This is the HBO interview with Diaz after the fight. I like the comment around the 1:15 mark.
"I thought he had a knife with though - I thought he had a blade."

I like his honesty and acceptance in defeat.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Boxing Thread
« on: December 14, 2008, 08:17:10 AM »
De La Hoya must have wondered why his new found coaches were just now informing him that Manny was much faster between round four and five.
They didn't have an answer to the style of Manny, who was basically doing a half step stutter to ease into range then shooting the left between the gloves, posting his right forearm on Oscar when he tried to pivot back into range and zoning out to reset the same sequence.

Also, thought it was interesting that De La Hoya predicted he would take Manny's will away from him and the bright lights and chaos of a big fight in Vegas would overwhelm the Filipino fighter. ( Roy Jones said the same thing - always a bad sign when the aging fighter uses this line.)

It is obvious Oscar has never been to Manila or seen the chaos of a Filipino market... Las Vegas has less bells and whistles than a single jeepney there. :)

Hatton will have a bigger problem unless he hurts Manny early.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Hatton vs. Mayweather
« on: December 14, 2008, 08:02:41 AM »

I have never and will never be, a fan of "tippy-tappy" pad work.
Regardless of who does it and how great a fighter they may be.
Fact is Mayweather is a freak, he would probably be just as good a boxer if he did pad work on one leg while wearing garters.

You have to consider that this was still a TV show made to entertain and entice viewers to watch the fight.
I doubt that Mayweather ONLY trains one way with the mitts.

What Hatton and others seemed to fixate on is a fragment of his mitt training, which looked like a drill to enhance a certain portion of quick twitch attributes.
If you put it in context, that's like watching one clip of an FMA guy doing hubad and saying that drill has no use.
It only has no use if the person drilling and instructing has no purpose but to do the patterns and does not complement it with power or other training that applies to the whole picture.

I mean, do we really all believe that Mayweather only does one kind of mitt work drill?
That's the tv producers doing their thing, editing it to create  it a style over substance show.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Hatton vs. Mayweather
« on: December 14, 2008, 07:53:50 AM »
Mayweather senior hasn't coached or cornered Jr. for a decent number of years.  From what I gather father and son have never been further apart.

That was supposedly over a personal issue though, not a stylistic or training one.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Hatton vs. Mayweather
« on: November 25, 2008, 12:25:01 PM »

Some fighters are great IN SPITE of what they do, not because of it.

That's true, but this wasn't the case.

Note that Hatton who ridiculed Mayweather's training, swallowed his pride enough to hire Mayweather senior as his trainer.
He won his recent fight by totally dominating his opponent. Better body positioning, better reactions inside. He even stated how some of his old habits were still exposing him to punches.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Blade Wounds by a Surgeon
« on: April 11, 2008, 10:34:17 PM »
The doctor has basically validated what Sayoc Kali methodologies have been criticized for... multiple vital targeting and the mapping out of those targets. What "experts" used to call overkill is not exactly what it seems.

I disagree with blunt weapons versus a blade's effectiveness though. There's hundreds of stick fights that I've seen with impact weapons but anyone who has tried to fight knife versus knife or  knife versus empty hand could tell you that the knife is quite lethal if the feeder is knowledgeable, cunning and aggressive.

Also, he's limiting his POV on a single premise - human versus human. Ever try to kill a wild animal with a stick? There's a reason tribal societies added a point to those spears. How about a confined space? Or pinned down? Or if one were too injured to generate enough impact power? Or in less ideal environs like in the water? Also easier to transition to the primary weapon.

It's also easier to capture the stick or impact weapon compared to tracking and capturing a bladed weapon. Blood also makes things a bit slippery.

Another thing to consider is that a surgeon is cutting into a less mobile area, in mostly a controlled environment. However, he makes a great point about the vital targets- he's illustrating in good detail that you must have a target in mind and know how to get to it and that one shot does not mean success. So you should have a map and know how to get there in whatever position or scenario you're given.

Lastly, also a great point of how the body is designed to protect the internals. If one raises their arm to deflect or block a blow to the neck, the collar bone shifts position so that it covers the subclavians. You'd have to break or get around the obstruction to get to one of the most vulnerable arterial targets of the human body.


When I saw Batman begins, I thought it was Silat/ Kali stuff with just raw Batman street fighting but then I went to the opening of I am legend and they played the 6 min trailer for the new Dark Knight movie and he is beating some serious ass. I wanted to know what kinda Silat they used and not to mention Tom Crusie used the same stuff (what I thought was Silat) in Mission impossible 3. Anyways...So I dug and found out it was called "Keysi" more or less I thought it was BS and they just renamed Silat.

The fight coordinator for the DARK KNIGHT, the next Batman film is Richard Ryan who did the fights in TROY. He is JKD, Wing Chun with some FMA thrown in here and there (possibly from Manong Inosanto). I do not know if he is associated with the Keysi guys who did BATMAN BEGINS.


Martial Arts Topics / Hatton vs. Mayweather
« on: December 09, 2007, 06:59:01 PM »
Different tune after the fight, it seems those "tippy tappy" drills have a significant purpose when the fighter utilizes them correctly:

"I felt alright tonight, really big and strong but I left myself open. He's better inside than I thought, with all the elbows and shoulders and forearms he used," said Hatton after the fight. "I didn't quite stick to my game-plan. He's not the biggest welterweight I've fought but he was very strong. I don't think he was the hardest puncher tonight but he was a lot more clever than I expected. I'll be back, don't worry." Ricky Hatton, Post Fight

Here's the clip where Hatton mocks the "tippy tappy" mitt drills:

Look at :13 seconds into the clip.

Mayweather won by KO in round ten.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Boxing Thread
« on: December 06, 2007, 08:11:47 PM »

What bothers me about the way that everyone holds for Mayweather (mainly his uncle) is that I think the pads should be used for power as well.  It seems that the way they hold usually has the pad holder meeting the punch half way rather than allowing the punch to come to the target.  This does not allow the punch to fully extend and as such, does not allow the puncher to execute with proper form and technique to create power.  This is not to say that this way of pad holding does not have its place, I just think that when this is the only way a pad holder holds for a fighte (which it seems to be from the footage of FM)r, that it can aid in the development of bad habits (less power, not developing range, etc.)



Most boxing gyms I've been to the mitt holders attack the punchers to develop timing, they don't allow the mitts to extend the fighter's arms causing them to overreach - because they want the fighter to catch the opponent during movement.

They have so many other tools to use for power work, and a guy holding the mitts for a world class boxer is really asking for their hands to be damaged if they work power with them for a long amount of time. Just look at Hatton's trainer's index finger.

When I was training at a boxing gym as a teen, a guy came to visit that the other old guys knew - he was one of Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini's trainers. He showed us his fingers which were crushed from such mitt power drills. He especially didn't like the old style mitts where at a certain angle a punch just crushes one finger joint into the other.

I'm positive Mayweather is doing some power work, but we also have to consider that he did state he's having hand issues in one episode and they always have  the HBO cams off at a certain stage in his workout.

I'd like to see what Hatton does to fine tune his skills beyond what HBO has shown so far as well. I like that beam he jumps back and forth on.


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: November 29, 2007, 01:10:37 PM »
The recent HBO series 24/7 focused on the upcoming Hatton/Mayweather boxing match had a humorous segment when Ricky Hatton was parodying Mayweather's "tippy tappy" focus mitt training. Hatton just didn't think it was very practical because the opponent/mitt holder was standing squared up to Mayweather. However, as many here know - working in that range using "hubad" like training works on many other things besides power, it is useful as long as it isn't the ONLY thing you do. For example, how is the reactionary response time honed when Mayweather is suddenly faced with an opponent who must move to get into position and has a wider striking arc?

Whether or not one likes Mayweather's personality or even if he loses to Hatton - one can't deny those drill's effectiveness for a fighter like Mayweather who also uses simultaneous block/strikes ala lots of Silat/FMA systems. So far he's won numerous titles and remained undefeated.

I like Hatton myself just because of his tenacity - he reminds me of Pacquaio, and this may be a very exciting bout between a clash of styles.


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Sayoc kali?
« on: October 09, 2007, 06:33:31 PM »
Speaking of names, "Maxx" - I was just informed that the memberships are up to date.

I may need your FULL name to help you out if there's a problem.
You can PM me if you do not want to reveal it publicly.

If you want to attend the Signal Hill classes, make an appoinment with Travis or Joey via their contact info on the Integrated site.

We should leave this type of minutiae off of the DB forums.


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Sayoc kali?
« on: October 09, 2007, 01:56:43 PM »
It would probably help your cause to try not to correct the family's spelling. :-D

I have informed the webmaster.


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Did Filipino Martial Arts Revolutionize Boxing?
« on: October 04, 2007, 04:50:28 PM »

Received this selfsame email as well and it's the online version of one of the tapes I purchased a while back.
It's got some very good footage and interviews.

Btw, I just reread a four year old post wherein I stated: "but totally invalidating the dearth of evidence SHOWING Filipino fighters using a different rhythm and footwork than English fighters because of some English cultural inhibition that lasted seventy plus years is quite a leap. "

Switch "dearth" to "depth"... never say I don't proofread - sometimes it just takes a few years.  :-D

On another note relating to Elorde:
My cousin was fortunate enough to train under the late Filipino boxer Flash Elorde at his camp in the Philippines prior to attending West Point back in the 60's. My cousin became the middleweight champ at West Point but he said it wasn't much compared to the gym battles that he had to endure at Elorde's camp, where the fighters were hungry and saw boxing as one way out of a bad situation. I asked him to write a comment about Elorde.

One of the observations my cousin wrote about his Uncle "Bai" (Elorde was a longtime family friend as well) was the complexity of his patterns.

"... I also remember that he (Flash) didn’t have to say a lot when he was in the ring.  His movements and his hand speed was like watching a ballet dancer and a flamenco dancer all in one.  His movements were never predictable, and I remember once trying to imitate his patterns.  That was almost impossible. He had many, and he put them together so well that they seemed like one pattern."


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Sayoc kali?
« on: October 01, 2007, 12:09:40 PM »
The one thing I have noticed from the Sayoc Kali stuff on you tube is that it's very fancy..There seems to be alot of Choreographed knife techincs where the person who is getting cut just seems to go with it..

Which clip are you refering to? There's some "fancy" stuff on youtube because those clips were for the Combat Choreography demo reel, they are not instructional clips but for film.

I have a problem here because in the chaos of battle ppl tend to slip or move away and not allow you to follow a predetermined set of patterned cuts. This is where I find the type of Kali that I take to be alittle more on the Cutting edge then this..We don't follow a pattern like that and have 6 strikes that move with the person durring the chaos.

Am I wrong here or is it just seem like that's what is being showed on the video's?

Yes, you're looking at it from a context that doesn't apply to Sayoc which is understandable if you've never trained in it.

The templates are not choreographed in the purpose you are describing it. What the Sayoc templates give you are optional lines of attack to vital targets. The drills give you a core pattern of flow, but after you train in them, you are no longer limited by the pattern. However, you retain WHY you do this slash versus a thrust and vice versa.

Imagine learning a jab, cross combo. That's a pattern.
Now add a left hook. That alters pattern.
After you learn how to box - those three strikes can make up numerous patterns once you have the coordination, concepts and body mechanics down.
What becomes important for a good boxer is WHY they are doing one move versus another.

Also, if the quantity of your "strikes" are "cutting edge" at the number 6, then would a system that gave you 3 "strikes" be even more cutting edge?

As per "chaos of battle", that's exactly why the Sayoc templates were created in the first place because the word "Chaos" to us means that one lacks a formula to solve a specific problem. To a JJ guy what they do is not chaos, but to an untrained eye it looks foreign. However, the JJ guy could be perfectly at ease in their realm.

Btw, since Sayoc is a Feeder- based system, the goal is not to move with the person, the goal is to make the person move with you.

If you have any more questions about Sayoc - please venture over to the site's public forum or better yet, give the guys at Intergrated a visit. It is much easier to grasp all this by actually training a little of it in person.

Sayoc Kali

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Knife vs. Gun
« on: July 28, 2007, 03:06:00 PM »

Two 1911's a little overkill don't you think.



Depends on several things:

1. That the word "overkill" makes any sense at all... since to be "killed" has the same result.
2. One counts the number of guns carried, not the number of bullets the target will end up "carrying".



Martial Arts Topics / Re: Email I received "dissing" kali...
« on: July 04, 2007, 02:59:50 PM »
Pizzo should read his own instructor's thoughts about individuals who get stuck on labels. So when he labels practitioners of FMA as the art of a "conquered people" (complete with huge historical inaccuracies) he will reread these words:

"When labels become a tool or device for divisiveness and enmity we really fall into a trap that should be avoided at all costs. The root problem here is the very same fundamental problem that is the wellspring for most, if not all of mankind’s ills. The EGO. The absolute need for self-validation at all cost. ANYONE who engenders all or most of their feelings of self-worth and validation from their TRAINING ALONE(or even in major part) needs to immediately CANCEL their registration at all forthcoming seminars on the latest evolution of NHB holds from the mount or the latest innovations in submission “whatever” imported directly from the planet Venus(or perhaps more accurately Uranus) AND SEEK PROFESSIONAL COUNSELING! And do it QUICKLY!" Carl Cestari


The oldest recorded term for the Filipino's "fighting style" was...


Antonio Pigafetta used other words in his glossary to describe other blades, but the only word he isolated to describe a fighting style was "kampilan". Many know kampilan is a type of blade, and so is a kalis, but it is also right there in the Magellan documents as the native's fighting style. That's 1500's which supercedes the mid 1800's "arnes".

So if all the FMA academics want to debate over the oldest recorded written term that specifically describes Filipino tribal methods of fighting, "kampilan" beats "arnis" and "kali" by three hundred years.

If their convictions are so intent in going back to the OLDEST recorded FMA term, then forget "arnis, eskrima and kali" use Kampilan.
Is Kampilan the Mother art?

As for Manong Marinas recollection of Tuhon Sayoc's definition of the ORIGIN of the term kali, please note that Tuhon Sayoc only started using the word "Kali" in the early 80's to differentiate the edged weapons from the stick curriculum found in the Sayoc Fighting System, now called Sayoc Kali - Silak. Sayoc Kali does not ascribe to the "Mother Art" explanation. As Manong Marinas was Tuhon Chris' elder and considered one of the FMA masters who also taught at the Sayoc household - he would defer to Manong Marinas' recollection at that time.

As for the Indian link, one just has to observe the movements of the Indian practitioners to note there is as much influence of India as there is to Spanish and Chinese movements in FMA.


Sayoc Kali

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: March 12, 2007, 06:18:00 AM »
Many FMAs incorporate the sayaw as part of the training. During our Sama Sama we do the sayaw at night around a large bonfire. Only live blades are allowed in the circle with various native musical instruments and drums included. It works on many levels and I highly recommend doing a sayaw this way.

SK's Tuhon Felix Cortes was a well known breakdancer during the 80's - he was part of the RUN DMC tour back in the day. His movement and flow is so good that Manong Dan Inosanto sponsored him to compete in the sayaw competition out west in the early 80's. I believe another east coast rep in that competition was Eric Knaus.

Another is SK/FCS's Tuhon Ray Dionaldo, "smooth" is the word that is oft repeated when people try to describe his movements.

Sayoc Kali

Science, Culture, & Humanities / Re: Conan the B. & Robert Howard
« on: March 08, 2007, 12:34:27 PM »
Thanks Marc,

Yes, there's several trade paperbacks collecting the series from Dark Horse Comics (SIN CITY, HELLBOY, 300). In fact, one of the letter columns even has a reference to the Dog Brothers. I don't recall the issue number but there's not that many issues out compared to Marvel's. Many fans have liked this version of Conan than Marvel's since some believe it is closer to the REH character.

You can pick up the CONAN books at any good comic book shop, Amazon or straight from Dark Horse itself.


Science, Culture, & Humanities / Re: Conan the B. & Robert Howard
« on: March 07, 2007, 04:39:54 PM »

More about the process of bringing REH's world beater to comics.


Sayoc Kali

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: March 05, 2007, 09:25:20 AM »
 It sure seems that the answer has been "not much."

As I stated earlier, you are placing a quantitative measurement on training which as an instructor I don't put much value in compared to quality of instruction. The whole thread is based on the QUALITYof TTDs not how much time you reserve in training it.

You could be placing 75 percent of your training on (insert any range here) drills and the drills could be installing incorrect responses.

"It seems" that point hasn't been made enough?

What IS apparent is that you are incorrectly assuming that FMAs don't focus on various long range drills, and then you quote Guro Marc and he is quite frankly stating that many FMA players tend to focus TOO much on NON forward pressure:

"many FMA players simply don't get it-"

and that the Late Maestro Sonny Umpad was obviously someone who knew ALL the ranges quite well.

From that you incorrectly conclude FMAs do not spend time in the long ranges...????

The recent COLD STEEL CHALLENGE is a highly publicized open tournament involving competitors from all types of sword arts. They include WMAs, chinese and various FMAs. The Atienza Kali group competed two years in a row and won the event both times - a LONG RANGE sword event entering different students both years. I believe previous years were also won by FMAs from other systems.

Unfortunately, it appears that I have offended Rafael in some way.   So I'll just shut up now!   My apologies to it was not my intention to offend or to seem hostile in any way.


I don't believe I stated I was offended.

Btw, group hugs start in the middle range.


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: March 04, 2007, 09:26:50 AM »
---Then do you agree that staying out of middle range as much as possible is a desirable tactic?

If you are in a serious knife scenario, one of the last descriptions I would use is "desirable". You're talking about microseconds of "comfort".

---Does that represent FMA knife methods?  

Good joke.

---So you are saying that the ideas of "defanging the snake" or "biomechanical cutting" are invalid?

No it negates it...that is correct.

The "snake methods" I have been mentioning refer only to the idea of good evasive movement at precontact distances.

"Pre - contact distance" to me is not being in the same area as the knife attack.

In my exposure to various FMA knife methods, the impression I have formed (rightly or wrongly) is that they place a large emphasis on training the middle range.   I have seen very little in the outside ranges.   And when I have been referring to "specific training", I mean training and methods designed for the outside ranges....not just occassional adaptations of middle range methods.

The best answer for that is get more actual FMA field tested exposure.

No one yet has seemed to acknowledged or agree on that point.

The middle range is the most important range in knife combatives. It is the gateway. It is the most important because it is difficult to teach and is very combative. Thus, the creation of TTD... to assist in installing correct responses. As Guro Marc has stated some TTD's QUALITATIVE methods are suspect - as I alluded to in my intial post.

You have a comfort zone in the long range and will try to stay in that range, even in how you pose your questioning. Every post wants an affirmation of this long range comfort zone.

However, many here are informing you that reality will not side with you. Sorry.

I thought that asking someone from Sayoc Kali would be the best way to find out...... So....compared to training the middle range material...does Sayoc Kali spend 10% of training time working the outside ranges?...30%....? 

hmmm, that's still quantitative. We don't teach that way. We look for quality.
So 100 percent on quality.

Btw, asking is not always the best way to find out. ;)

---That's not entirely accurate.  Huge gaps...yes.   As far as focus....the emphasis is actually on grappling movements with a large double-edged dagger.   While this is arguably middle range, it is quite different from the  "tippy-tappy" drills. 

Splitting hairs. Again you're talking about microseconds of response time - their gateway is the middle range.
I can analyze plate for plate progression for you. One is not acheiving grappling range without understanding the importance of middle range, not against someone who trains in that range.

The TTD is what is needed to fill those huge gaps of static poses when the concepts of depth perception, perspective, animation  and volume representation in drawing were still evolving.

In time, the WMA will learn this... once they apply it to the real world of combatives. Many WMA practitioners have already come to the same conclusion. Especially those who understand the limitations of these manuals' practical representation of anatomy and biomechanical movement or those who have been exposed to FMA for a considerable amount of time.


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: March 03, 2007, 03:47:55 PM »
  This just happens to be, . . . you guess it; the range most energy/tapping drills are isolated.




Sooner or later, people who use marketing claims of teaching against resisting opponents will come to realize these drills were created for a purpose.

They have to mature and someday realize the men who created these drills came from an even rougher neighborhood and background than most of them did and they weren't doing these middle range drills because they wanted to play some form of patty cake.

What they get confused with is that their LIMITED window into FMA does not equate to a complete understanding of the culture nor history of the art.

It is a never ending process.


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: March 03, 2007, 09:08:29 AM »
---Movement is movement.  It won't happen any faster than exchanges at middle range.

In this context - that is incorrect.

But likewise, why would one stand and exchange at middle range...

No one stated anything about staying and exchanging in middle range. Read my first post.
A person has ONE layer. The difference is that how a person responds in the middle range dictates whether he dies or not, MORE than long range.

 Is there real life footage of someone using any of the FMA knife methods?

Look at any prison shanking footage.

---Then that would kind of negate the whole FMA idea of "defanging the snake"  or the more modern idea of "biomechanical cutting."  Unless, of course, those severe cuts weren't targeted very well.

No it negates it...that is correct. Again, you have to place the "snake" methods in their historical context as I stated earlier.

---That's where good footwork and mobility come in.   That's why fighting on the outside ranges needs its own emphasis.   If someone has only trained at the middle and close ranges, then they won't know how to deal with that forward pressure.

Unfortuantely, you are limiting your premise to suit your stance. I don't know ANY FMA school that ONLY teaches one range. I am talking about focusing on the range that is MOST LIKELY to mean life and death.

So how much time does Sayoc Kali spend in specifically training the outside ranges?

What's a suitable answer for you? You have inquired about this vague quantitative amount as if it amounts to quality several times now.

But once you have a good background and biomechanic in place....and some willing partners...., you can go a long way with videos.   :wink:

Excellent. I'll keep that in mind.

I teach tomahawk myself so it would be interesting to meet Mr. McElmore someday.
Anyone who has studied with Manong Dan deserves respect.
The same goes for anyone who Manong Dan highly respects, wouldn't you agree?.

As per Western dagger methods via manuals... there's huge gaps in the manuals concerning the  knife. However, the one thing they focus on almost exclusively is the MIDDLE range.

Sayoc Kali

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: March 02, 2007, 01:44:08 PM »
---People also get jacked in parking lots, alleys, driveways, sidewalks, etc that allows them room to move out of middle range.  Why stay there if you don't have to?

One is NOT going to get out of range unless you know how to get out of middle range. As Ryan pointed out, long range is basically awareness and field experience coming into play. In real life application, the duelling aspects of knife happens too fast unless you have a longer weapon to keep the opponent at a farther distance than his own extended blade.

Why would one knife duel in long range if you already see it coming? You de-escalate , use an obstacle to gain escape....all kinds of avenues are open to you. It is also a better way to handle it in the court of law.

---How exactly is long range nullified?   If an opponent is  good at using footwork and mobility to stay at the outside ranges and pick off movements of your knife hand/arm, it seems to me you would have to play his game until you could force the exchange to close to middle range. 

Is there real life footage of this kind of knife fighting beyond a sport duel? I've seen people severely cut on the hands and wrist, it doesn't even register - their forward pressure will overrun those who wish to play tag.

INTENT is very important to keep in mind. If a guy wants to close on you no matter what, long range will be One would have to be running away and hope their skills in that area is superior than the guy chasing.

---By this comment, you make it sound like Sayoc doesn't spend a lot of time specifically training for the "outside" ranges.   Otherwise, "adjustment" would not be needed.  But then I may very well have misinterpreted your intent.

You misinterpreted my intent, correct.

---In DBMA terminology, "snake range" refers to the "precontact distance."  The name came from the way in which Eric Knaus would keep his stick moving in a "snaky" fashion as he stalked his opponent prior to closing. 


That is why I specifically stated "historically".

Btw, how long have you trained in knife combatives?



Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: February 28, 2007, 09:31:17 AM »
---And I would think that being able to stay out of middle range where you ARE most likely to suffer a lethal wound would be very important as well!  :-o

That is if you are in duelling mode.

Most knife attacks BEGIN in middle range.
One can not get back to that "safe" long range zone if they cannot dominate the middle range long enough to escape.

We may be communicating on opposite ends of the discussion, because in Sayoc, WE have the knife.

---Another reason to stay out of the middle range "danger zone"!

People get jacked in stairwells, in alleyways, on icy streets, on muddy fields, in theaters, in between cars, in ATMs, etc.... it starts in middle range. Even if the guy is far away, by the time you respond he is in middle range or closer.

 How much training and emphasis is given to fighting from the "outside range" in Sayoc?  Thanks!


We train so that long range is nullified, unless you are in duelling sport mode.

Multiple man scenarios force a more realistic form of long range fighting, so we do that on a consistent basis.
It isn't at all what people tend to think of as "long range"... it is a suprrising dose of reality for many.

When we are in long range duelling play, our students have been able to adjust quite well. Footwork evolves much more against multiple attackers.

FYI, the "snake" tactics often referred to were developed for guys attacking you with a spear or pike.
Look at it from that historical context and it may open a few doors into one's training evolution.

Sayoc Kali

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: February 27, 2007, 04:46:23 PM »
But when you watch actual knife sparring with padded training knives, little action happens at this range.  Most people that I have seen trying to "spar" this as realistically as possible end up trying to stay out of middle and close range as much as possible.  So...shouldn't more emphasis be placed on developing the "snake" and "long" range skills? 


The middle range is where a person will most likely receive the most lethal wounds, so emphasis on the middle range is VERY important. One might be able to gain long range entry but in the real world, people tend to grab and keep the victim close so they can keep pumping the knife. The defender usually tries to grab the knife or try to escape the grabs of the attacker with the knife. All that happens in middle range.

Tapping drills lose their applicable nature once they are no longer in one for one beats. That doesn't mean a hubud drill is useless, but it limits the two count beat to an opponent that is keeping their own weapon stationary for as long as you can move twice, even three times on it. It does happen though but usually when the opponent is hesitant.

The tapping should have halfbeats in mind and a majority (if not all) in one beats.

Tapping lasts one layer, if you get two layers of tapping in then the Almighty gave you a gift that day.

Sayoc Kali

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Possible Spanish influence on FMA re-revisited...
« on: February 27, 2007, 09:50:15 AM »
Very good point Matinik.

Here's more from Sawyer's book:

You can almost hear the puzzled thoughts, "but isn't THAT guy on the cross a human sacrifice?":evil:

According to the observations of historian Frederic Sawyer, the Jesuits provided these first hand accounts published in 1900. He was there at the time period of Jesuit influence during the border battles between Christianized and the Mohammeddan tribes. His account is from an Englishman's point of view, one who had no direct political stake in what was transpiring in the islands.

The first observation I would like to present is Sawyer's view of Moro warrior attributes and sword skills:

""Physically the Moro is a man built for the fatigues of war, whether by sea or land. His sinewy frame combines strength and ahility, and the immense development of the thorax gives him marvellous powers of endurance at the oar or the march."

Sawyer then adds proof that the Moros TRAINED to be skilled with their blades, note his use of non native terminology to describe the native's weapons.:

" Trained to arms from his earliest youth he excels in the management of the lance, the buckler and the sword. Those weapons are his inseparable companions: the typical Moo is never unarmed. He fights equally well on foot, on horseback, in his fleet war canoe, or in water, for he swims like a fish and dives like a penguin."

More proof of how the mindset was introduced and cultivated, with the use of LIVE victims:

"He will set his sons, a mere boy, to kill some defenceless man, merely to get his hand in at slaughter." Page 365 Inhabitants of the Philippines, published in 1900

Also through the use of tribal mock fighting and sayaw in the Moro-moro dance:
" They have a war-dance called the Moro-moro, which is performed by their most skillful and agile swordsmen, buckler on arm and campilan in hand to the sound of martial music. It simulates a combat, and the dancers spring sideways, backwards, or forwards, and cut, thrust, guard, or feint with surprising dexterity." page 369

Sawyer also notes that the Moros war industries were:
"... forging of swords, cris, lance-heads, casting and boring their lantacas." page 373

Sawyer, stressed the importance of firearms to stop the Moro uprisings, and observed what the Jesuits truly used and trained the local Christian populace with:

"..getting notice of their (Moros) approach, the Jesuits assembled the fighting men of several towns, and being provided with a few fire-arms by the Government, they fell upon the Moros and utterly routed them, driving them back to their own territory with great loss." page 366 The Inhabitants of the Philippines, published in 1900

Note that these natives were already considered "fighting men" indicating experience or intent to face the invaders. The main contirbution of the Jesuits was to ASSEMBLE them together and if they wanted to win decisively... to obtain firearms. On another occasion in the town of Lepanto:

"...the inhabitants, not being provided fire-arms sought safety in flight, but the Moros captured fourteen of them." Page 367

Sawyer indicates the Christian tribes were already:
"war-like and hardy troops" page 363

And he notes the evidence of "Subanos" weaponry:
" The weapons of Subanos are the lance, which they call talanan, a round shield they call taming, a scimitar they call campilan, the Malay kris they call caliz, the machete or pes."

None of the above sword weapons are of the Spanish variety.

Sawyer never notes the Jesuits teaching the natives ANY sword skills, even though he meticulously indicates to the contrary of* how the Moros were trained by their elders in the art of war. Sawyer did write in detail how the Jesuits taught the natives the following skills and also the other duties they provided:

" They educated the young, taught them handicrafts, attended to the sick, consoled the afflicted, reconciled those at variance, explored the country , encouraged agriculture, built churches, laid out roads, and assisted the administration."page 385

Sawyer does not state that the Jesuits feared the Moros, but were "pious" men who were brave and instrumental in "leading" the Christians into battle. However, even a supporter of the Jesuit order like Sawyer does not make the logical leap that states the allied tribes required training in sword skills from the friars. This supports other first hand accounts of Jesuits being tacticians and organizers rather than a sword master of high stature to the tribes.

Look at the following photos printed in Sawyer's book and you can tell me if the tribes required any edged weapon training from the Jesuits - in this context it is almost a comical scenario to even suggest.

Sayoc Kali

Science, Culture, & Humanities / Re: Conan the B. & Robert Howard
« on: January 11, 2007, 08:24:03 AM »
Thanks Quijote,
The comic mentioned above is featured here:



Martial Arts Topics / Re: continued
« on: January 10, 2007, 07:15:25 PM »
5.  The Battle of Mactan was about Magellan's hubris, not superior martial arts.  Magellan and a handful of his men stuck in the mud off Mactan, being butchered by hundreds of Lapu Lapu's men, can hardly be called a battle.  It was a massacre.

I agree with all the above except one detail. Magellan had an equal number of allies right off the shore that he decided not to use. So it was a battle of tactics. Lapu Lapu could have easily sent his men wading out after Magellan and been stranded to get picked off by Humabon's men or the cannons.

At no time did Lapu Lapu know when Humabon would come ashore, nor did he know how the ship's men felt about Magellan (some didn't like him). So credit is given to Lapu Lapu beyond mere numerical superiority. Pigafetta even stated Lapu Lapu's men were in specific formations that reacted well against their firearms.

There were EQUAL numbers there at the site, the Spanish even had superior weapons. Bad tactics created the massacre, the same as good tactics worked for the Spanish in South America.

The fault was mainly tactical. Lapu Lapu did all the right things. He even had men to intercept Magellan's ploy to torch the village.

Sound tactics is Martial Arts.

As Top Dog and I used to say "As the Stick Twirls"

LOL... the writer is making some easy logical gaps in his reasoning. Last I saw on youtube, Yuli Romo was not brandishing a rapier but a kampilan.

The writer then states the Visayans use a weapon that was similar to a (drumroll).... Moro blade.

"Kapitan Perong brandishing his lampirong (Visayan version of Moro barong blade) would "horse" mount at the tip of the bundled bamboo poles and upon his signal to cut loose the harness would be propelled several feet above the air flying like superman with the trajectory precisely aimed at the incoming paraos (Moro sailboats)."

So the Kapitan was using a similar Moro weapon, but the Moro side does not know how to use it because the Spanish didn't show them how? The Moros knew to forge and design a weapon so well, that the Visayans chose to ignore their subjugator's sword of choice and UNANIMOUSLY decided to use their enemy's sword instead. Interesting.

Why are they still using barongs and kampilans? If it is a rapier why not use a rapier? They are easy to forge as any barong, kris or kampilan.

Add to the fact that I'd like to see a full grown man catapulted into the air and land softly on a sailboat's sails without going over, with panicked occupants on the boat, and carrying a blade THEN killing EVERYONE on board. Maybe Errol Flynn on a huge galleon's sails....

So this obvious MYTH the writer believes?

I suppose in this person's logic bubble, Moros are not Filipinos, and that unless a Cebuano was wielding a blade and counting in Spanish it isn't part of any "Martial Art".

I'd like to have seen this writer tell the Moros of old that they didn't have a martial art.
I doubt they would call them on a cell phone to let them know.

He is also singing the Fighting Friar tune again, even though the examples have already been debunked.

Consider this:

In 1836, William Barret Travis wrote a letter to the "people of Texas and all Americans in the world" from the Alamo describing that the "the garrison
are to be put to the SWORD" by over a thousand Mexicans under General Santa Anna.

Let's look at this description.
Travis uses the term "Sword" to describe the upcoming conflict.
However, at this time, the Mexican army surrounded and overwhelmed the Alamo volunteers with cannon fire and rifles with bayonets.
The Mexicans who were under Spanish rule for many years won their independence and utilized the arms that Spain had left behind.
In addition, the Mexicans bought a large number of British arms to supplement as far back as the 1820's.
From historical evidence, the Mexican infantry man was armed with "the India Pattern musket, a 39 inch barrel of .752-.760 caliber. It weighed nine pounds, eleven ounces and came with a seventeen inch socket bayonet that itself weighed one pound."

The Mexican light infantry men called Cazadores were armed with lighter muskets (Tercerlos), others carried Baker rifles armed with the 23 inch bayonet. Although firing with the bayonet attached proved the rifles useless. "These (bayonets) were very handy for camp chores, but because it added weight to the end of the gun barrel, it was seldom mounted and rarely seen in hand-to-hand combat." The Cazadores were better trained in marksmanship and tactics than the average soldier.

Now consider these facts :
1. By the 1800's, Mexicans who would have had the closest cross training to Spanish methods of war had already transitioned to the rifles.
2. The bayonet on the rifles extended the weapon's length far enough to simulate a short pike. The preferred Spanish weapon of choice.
3. The Mexicans did not storm the Alamo with machetes.
4. The year of transition started in 1820's, during the time these fictional fighting friars were supposedly teaching our "untrained" natives on the Spanish OUTDATED tactics of warfare... the sword.
5. The term "sword" did not literally mean that the tactics were going to be with a sword.
6. At the Alamo, the one man known for his skills with the blade was James Bowie and many accounts state he had several primed pistols at his side, and he had taken ill by the time of the battle so was not directly influential.

Now knowing the nature of Filipinos and a bit about what was happening during these times... doesn't it poke several large holes in the logic that the Spanish friars taught the Filipinos how to use a weapon that not only the Spanish considered an outmoded weapon, but countries Spain subjugated thought so as well?

If we go by the linked writer's logic, The Mexicans would have stormed the Alamo with their Spanish trained rapier skills... except the Mexicans would not use actual rapiers but their indigenous Aztec war clubs. Maybe even use catapults to fly over the walls.

Remember the Alamo indeed.

(note: the reference on the weapons used in the Alamo was appropriated from the TAMU website.)

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Possible Spanish influence on FMA re-revisited...
« on: December 22, 2006, 06:58:49 AM »
Thanks Guro Marc.

Here's some more:

Englishman and historian Frederic Sawyer wrote INHABITANTS OF THE PHILIPPINES in 1900. This is a very informative book not only for its abundance of information, but because Sawyer's  point of view takes a vivid snapshot of interaction between American, Filipino tribes, Chinese, Arab and Spanish of that time period. He was there during the revolution and traveled all over the islands taking notes on methods of war and customs from as many tribes as possible. He wrote unbiased observations both positively and negatively about all sides.  He found both the corruptness of the Spanish friars and native headhunting practices appaling.

I wanted to see if his take on the Caragans coincided with the Jesuit's own text from Harvard University Press that I referred from earlier.

It appears it does.

Sawyer did not view the Caragans to be identical as the Visayans from their home region.

 "The Visayans of Mindanao have been modified by their environment both for good and evil. Thus they are bolder and more warlike than their brethen at home, having had for centuries to defend themselves against bloodthirsty Moros. The Visayas of Caraga are especially valiant and self-reliant, and they needed to be so, for the Spaniards, whenever hard-pressed by English, Dutch or Portugese, had ways of recalling their garrisons, and leaving their dependent to shift for themselves." page 331

Most importantly, Sawyer supports what I wrote concerning the Spanish choice of arms.
If the Spanish were training Filipinos in the ways of war, they would not be using friars whose expertise were best directed elsewhere, nor would the Spanish choose swords.

The Spanish chose to instruct natives in a more productive method of WARFARE to battle their Moros rivals:


"The arms have been supplied by the Spanish government, and have generally been of obsolete pattern. I have seen in Culion flint-lock muskets in the hands of the guards. Latterly, however, Remington rifles have been supplied, and they are very serviceable and quite suitable for their levies." Page 331

Note that Sawyer describes the wide range of weapons available to the Caragans and yet the weapons are within one family... Firearms.

Sawyer has no mention of swords.
However, in EVERY chapter concerning indigenous native customs, Sawyer was very detailed about the weapons of that tribe. He even described certain tactics like the EXPERT use of a lasso by the Ifugaos to bind so they can decapitate their enemey. Sawyer even mentions where Blumentritt may have erred by stating another tribe carried krisses when in fact he'd only seen bolos in their hands.

Sawyer did not shy away from his interest in native Filipino dress and weaponry. Even the cover of his book is an intricate gold engraving of a Malay scrolled Salakot and Bolo embossed over a red woven cover. Included are the words "Salacot" and "Bolo" in gold as the only words on the cover besides his credit and book title.

Sawyer witnessed the results of battles between swords and firearms equipped with bayonets in the mid and late 1800's. Contrary to what many have been led to believe, the bolo against soldiers who are armed with rifles with fixed bayonets takes a heavy toll on the numbers of bolomen. You might win some, but it will be at the expense of a LOT of warriors. Sawyer describes the time of the Katipunan and after when THOUSANDS of men would be shot dead and the losses for the Spanish side would be in the tens or low hundreds... mostly wounded.

Filipinos gained ground through will and tenacity, they outnumbered the enemy. Man for man, a bolo would not hold up against a trained rifleman. That is proven fact.

So the Spanish knew very well that to maintain control of the garrisons would mean arming and training the natives in the use of rifles. There's no positive strategy to abandoning one's fort and attacking the enemy with EQUAL weapons in hostile territory. Not in the 1800's. And I've already shown evidence that the Jesuits do not record any of their friars teaching the sword PRIOR to that time.

I noted in another thread of the warrior monk, "El Padre Capitan". He was a 26 year old gunnery expert, not a friar whose expertise was the sword. With further research, I discovered that his most well known contribution was not any sword skill at all, but teaching Major Atienza (the one Conquistador Kudarat respected) how to build boats that could be taken apart, transported over land and then reassembled on Lake Lanao. It offered the Spanish a distinct tactical advantage to gain access to territories that were once difficult to travese on foot.

Returning to the firearm (note: caps are mine):

"All the Visaya town bordering on the Moros should have their somatenes (note: defenders of the church) armed, exercised, and supplied with AMMUNITION."pg. 332

"The illustration shows a party of Visayas militia belonging to the town of Baganga in Caraga under a native officer of gigantic stature, Lieutenant Don Prudencio Garcia."

Note that Garcia is holding a SPANISH sword, and his men doing the brunt of the fighting are armed with rifles, with not a NATIVE blade to be seen on them. Everyone here has seen photograghs of various Filipino warriors - always with their blades on their sides. Yet in this very official picture, it only shows a lone Caragan Visayan with a Spanish officer's sword.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Possible Spanish influence on FMA re-revisited...
« on: December 15, 2006, 08:32:11 PM »
Hello Jeff,

In this case, the Spanish were fighting on the opposite side of the Muslims. It also reveals that the Spanish thought it was rather brave of the Filipinos and Muslim clerics to face what they used for their primary weapon... the firearm.

This is actual historical proof coming from the Spanish themselves that Moors / Muslim clerics were the ones fighting alongside the natives with SWORDS, debunking the assumptions that the Filipino sword arts came primarily from Spanish influence.

In addition, San Buenaventura (1613, pg 349) utilized the Japanese word "KATANA" when he described in Tagalog about splitting a man in half with his katana (sword). Katana is not a Filipino term. The description also indicates a precise target and angle revealing a thought out tactic.
William Henry Scott states, "Those with access to foreign imports sometimes had Japanese swords (katana)..."pg 232 Barangay 16th Century Philippine Culture and Society.

Basically, Filipinos were well aware of swordsmanship and tactics from inter - tribal conflicts, mock fighting rituals (what we would call training) and from foreign influence (Muslim, Chinese, Japanese, Malay, etc.) well before Spain arrived.

There's mention of Spanish friars as "mentors" to Filipinos, but it is rather sparse evidence of actual hands on training for natives who already had weapons,  tactics and strategies already labeled in various dialects in the ways of war.

There's also no mention of such training from the Jesuit records themselves.

Add to this the simplest of logical deduction:

If Spanish friars who were predominantly from the expeditions in South America and Mexico arrived to teach the Filipinos "Arnis" and "Eskrima"... then,
where are the Mexican and South American equivalent of this martial art in those areas? Arnis should logically be MORE predominant considering that the Spanish language is still spoken by the masses in those parts of the world.

Wouldn't the material be very similar?

Where are the Cebuano FMA "proxies" in these areas?

If fighting friars existed and taught the indigenous people how to use Spanish style swordsmanship, where are the Iroqouis, Paraguayan (Guarini Indians), Chinese, Tibetan, Central Asia, Chamorros (Guam), South American and all the North American Native's eskrimadores? Wouldn't they exist as well? And why were accounts of Macabebe Pampangans under the orders of the Spain, NOT utilizing the Spanish designed bladed weapon but were instead wielding kampilans, spears (note some of CHINESE origin) and arquebuses as early as 1668?

Most notable of all is that if the warrior Jesuit monks were not teaching the natives how to use a firearm then they were not much of a strategist nor scholar of their own martial history.

Their FOUNDER of the Jesuit order, Don Inigo Lopez de Recalde, the Ignatius Loyola of history,  was shot by musket ball in both legs and laid senseless sword in hand at the field of Pamplona in 1521.

Science, Culture, & Humanities / Re: Conan the B. & Robert Howard
« on: December 13, 2006, 08:33:33 AM »
Thanks for this info Guro Marc.

I'm currently finishing off illustrating an issue of CONAN for Dark Horse at this time.
More blood and thunder than was permissable in the Marvel books.

I've heard the Finn book is quite good. I would also recommend the dvd "The WHOLE WIDE WORLD" written by my friend Michael Scott Myers starring Vincent Dinofrio as REH.
I know the Conan licensors are aware and positive towards the work I've done in concept design, Conan related projects and in fight/weapon choreography so perhaps with good word of mouth the powers that be at the studio will bring me on board.


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Possible Spanish influence on FMA re-revisited...
« on: December 08, 2006, 06:42:44 AM »
In contrast, there is similar evidence of Arab clerics who may have taken up the sword. This is not based on heresay but from first hand Spanish  accounts.

In 1597, the Spanish commander wrote to the Spanish Governor of a battle in Mindanao:

In the assault five of their men were killed with arquebus-shots, and several others wounded. Among those killed were two of their bravest and most esteemed men. One was from Terrenate and was a casis (note: a Muslim priest) who instructed them in religion. Of a truth, they showed clearly that they were brave; for I do not believe that there are many peoples who would attack with so gallant a determination, when they were armed with nothing but shields and canpilans. Blair and Robertson, Vol. IX, pp. 284 - 285

(Note: "canpilans" or kampilans- at that time were shaped more like scimitars).

Majul described these casis as warriors "who were veritable mujahids." page 75 Muslims in the Philippines


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Interesting Knife Fight
« on: November 21, 2006, 07:45:04 PM »
That father is particularly oblivious.

Note that at 1:21 the woman connects the larger group to the smaller group.
This causes the two big guys to lose focus even more.

Kidneys are timers, so unless SA got the aorta - those big guys won't be going anywhere for several minutes.

Sayoc Kali

Martial Arts Topics / Re: This "Tactical Blade" looks hokey.
« on: November 21, 2006, 07:41:23 PM »
Number Two man muzzle sweeps Number Three man at 2:15.


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Unarmed Knife Defense
« on: September 20, 2006, 07:51:49 AM »
First time I saw a living "piece of meat" hung and cut apart by a knife was during the mid 1960's,? - I watched a large dog strung up on a tree and then zipper cut open with a knife. Opened like butter.
This was in the Philippines and the villagers then cooked and ate the dog.
What I remember even more vividly was the sounds.
Sobering experience.

The next image I have of what a knife can do was watching my older cousin show me the ten stab wounds he acquired when a couple of thugs attacked him in Manila. Lucky for him they were not skilled with the knife, and he survived.

Other experiences came from tales my family told of what happened to one family member or what they saw during WW2. How a pitchfork was used to take apart two Japanese soldiers caught by villagers. How a family member was decapitated by a bolo.

All this happened a good decade or so before I even started training in FMA.

By then it didn't take much to convince me what a edged weapon would do to flesh.

Sayoc Kali

Politics & Religion / WW3
« on: August 01, 2006, 05:30:20 PM »
Don't know how long this link will be up. It is supposedly from Al Jazeera with Wafa Sultan, an Arab-American psychologist from Los Angeles.


Quote from: argyll

"Clearly we are seeing wounds you would expect from a bigger blade from what victims say was a small knife," says Andrew Ulrich, a Boston Medical Center emergency-room doctor.

That is why Sayoc teaches templates... it isn't all about the blade design, but how one utilizes their training to better traumatize vital targets.

Your methods dictate the blade design not vice versa.
Another reason why we start new students off with training blades without personalities. They don't have methods yet.

Sayoc Kali

Martial Arts Topics / Re: FMA, European weapons question from n00b
« on: July 16, 2006, 06:17:44 AM »
Quote from: AbsOfBrass
How do european weapon styles for actual combat ( as opposed to olympic fencing) compare to weapon based FMA's?
I am thinking most specifically of rapier and dagger or case of rapiers vs. two sticks, or single rapier vs. single stick....

Depends who is teaching, learning and fighting... on the whole FMA is based on a living art while "European" fencing is based on unearthing a dead art. My opinion has always been that to get closest to what the Europeans did in the past, you have to get practitioners who practice a live art to assist in the interpretation of the dead art.

Quote from: AbsOfBrass
How much difference does having the leathal penetrating point on the end of your weapon change your tactics? I would imagine it changes things a great deal, and I would think the sword is the better weapon (though I would love to be wrong).

The individual's skill and mindset dictates the better combatant not necessarily the weapon itself if weapons are of the same family (as in your premise - swords).  Any culture who uses a blade has a lethal penetrating point - East or West.

Quote from: AbsOfBrass
Anyone have experience with both? I would guess Filipino and Spainish soldiers hashed it out, what do we know of these encounters?

Historically, Spanish soldiers NEVER hashed it out with Filipinos using only their swords. That's a MYTH. They used Pike and Shot tactics which alters the battle significantly. The sword was a backup weapon, used when their formations were overrun or to clean up after the major battle. The majority of swords being exchanged during the Spanish Conquest were between rival Filipino tribes pitted against one another.

Quote from: AbsOfBrass
Also, is there Spainish fencing influence in FMA? Is there FMA influence in Spainish style fencing?

Interesting question. How far back do you want to go? Spanish swordsmanship didn't originate in a vacuum from Spainish hands. Both cultures have a history of Moorish influence. Spain had 700 plus years worth under Moor rule, prior to the invention of the firearm.

Spanish fencing in the FMA is evident in that Spain had fencing schools in some of the cities, which does not necessarily mean it was based on warfare, but duelling and sport. However, Filipinos also learned to counter actual Spanish war tactics (not necessarily sword methods) with their own tactics.

Spanish fencing today is taught by a handful of people with different POVs. FMA history is based on absorbing all the cultural influences that intersected with the islands. So you have Chinese, Malay, Moor, Hindu and European influences.

Filipino influence in Spanish "swordsmanship" can be found in the words of Spanish Conquistadores themselves... "we need more GUNS". Because the situation in the islands did not favor Spanish swordsmanship as the primary weapon of their day. To their credit they found other means to subjugate some of the islands... Religion and the Gun. For Spain to truly test their swordsmanship against Filipinos it would have to commit more manpower and funds which they were not willing to do, nor tactically sound.

Quote from: AbsOfBrass
I am an MMA trained guy just getting interested in learning to fight with non-firearm weapons.

There is no actual tactical Spanish sword fighting schools. Most Spanish schools are interested in discovering about how their predecessors fenced in their day, not how it applies to real world combatives. If you want real world edged weapon training you can try numerous FMA schools, or train in this forum's chosen form of instruction.

Btw, the Clements article that was linked was discussed to death on this very forum, and its inherent weaknesses and misinterpretations of Filipino/Spanish history were exposed.

Sayoc Kali

« on: July 13, 2006, 07:01:14 PM »
Magellan's historian Antonio Pigafetta, described the weapons used against Magellan. The weapon that struck his lower limbs and initiated his death was described as a scimitar or cutlass. In the Italian translation it was also the same.

Many have described these weapons as Kampilans and we envision the 'v' tipped straight swords. It has been illustrated thus in many books and articles of the battle. However, after looking at old books of that time especially weapons catalogued by the Spanish government for their own studies, the kampilans of that day look very much like actual scimitars, not the straight bladed kind that the kampilans evolved into. The 'Campilanes' illustrated in the Resen'a Historica de la Guerra al Sur de Filipinas in 1857 were markedly different than the ones we see today. They are twice as wide where the tip widens, some bow out instead of the 'v' prongs, or in reverse, bow in at the tip instead of making the 'v', more of an exagerrated curve on the blade shape than a straight weapon.  At the punto were tassels, similar to the ones we see on latter versions.

I always wondered why the Portugese, Spanish and Italian had described the kampilans as scimitars, and that was due to the weapons looking more like a fatter classical scimitar from the Arabian Nights. A page of the catalogue is reproduced on page 213 of Muslims in the Philippines by Majul.

Sayoc Kali

Martial Arts Topics / Gen. Pershing, Pigs and Filipino Moros
« on: July 13, 2006, 06:20:44 PM »
From Vic Hurley's JUNGLE PATROL:

"I would be leading a patrol across Jolo, with perhaps six to ten soldiers. We would see a Moro cutting through a field and notice that he carried a blade. The carved mahogany handle would tell us it was a fighting weapon. I would hail him. "

"He would approach and I would try to remonstrate with him. I would tell him that the world was full of men--real men--who did not carry barongs. That it was against the law and he must give it up. Sometimes he did. Sometimes he would approach, and when he would see the soldiers his eyes would begin to glisten with excitement. When I saw that he was going to make a run for it, I would order the men to fix bayonets. The sight of the blades and the rattle of the bayonet as it went on the barrel usually tripped the poor fellow off. He would whirl and charge, deciding that life without a barong was not worth living."

"The Moro soldiers would not be sorry for him as they shot him down. They knew that he wanted to die. Sometimes he would cast himself upon the bayonets. Being a Moro, he preferred to die on a blade. Yes, disarming Moros was a sad and messy business."

Three types of Moro 'savage practices'
Juramentado - usually avenging himself.
Mundo - One who assaults or kills to rob others. Usually found in desolate areas and during 'hit and runs'.
Pulajones- An abuser and assassinator of victims. No ties to religious practice- pretty much a serial killer of the Moro kind.
Other terms used  referring to the juramentado were the Sulu words, "Parrang Sabil or Sabilullah".

"The natives of the island's interior were sometimes erroneously referred to as "Moros" by the American troops. The true Moros were Moslem pirates from Sulu who had raided the island for years killing and robbing. There were several provinces of pure Moros in the Philippines, but none of these pure communities existed on Samar. Of course the Moros had raided Samar, as well as the other islands of the south, for many years, leaving their Malay strain in the native population.

The natives of Samar were a mongrel mixture of the original Negritos and the subsequent invaders - Moros, Chinese and Spanish. They lived in self-governing pueblos ruled by hereditary chiefs..." page 14, THE ORDEAL OF SAMAR, Joseph l. Scott

Sayoc Kali

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Knife vs Gun
« on: March 26, 2006, 10:42:48 PM »
Retired, (20 plus years) SEAL and Sayoc Kali Instructor Michael Jaco had this to say about knife versus gun:

Carrying blades to a WAR is a whole different story, since much more goes into it than one on one firepower.


Quote from: joewambaugh
Thanks! Rafael...
Could you provide a bibliography of sorts, a short list of the books related to the Jesuits in the Filipines, and where we might find these books (or websites).

The best one IMO, 'JESUITS IN THE PHILIPPINES' (which were the actual records of the Jesuits from 1581- 1768) Harvard University Press. It even has a list of EVERY Jesuit who was recorded to have been on the islands, and if they have it on record, the date of death and how. It can run you from $50 - 300.00!

There's mention here and there in other books. Blair and Robertson has some, Morga's book has some... but the books do not focus entirely on the Jesuits nor go into detail like the above book. There's Filipino authored books, but again that would be from the other side's POV and one that has some accounts is The Kris In Mindanao History.

I wouldn't go by SWISH OF THE KRIS by Hurley neither, because I have also found inaccuracies in that book. He started the whole "Sword/Cross" thing that has been taken literally by some.


Martial Arts Topics / The Jesuit Warrior Priest
« on: September 19, 2005, 06:24:59 AM »
A WARRIOR Jesuit Priest ('warrior' meaning actively engaged in the use of arms and fought in actual battles) was an EXTREME exception as recorded in the accounts of the Jesuits in the Philippines. To refer to these specific Jesuits above as Warriors is a distortion of first hand accounts.

There's only ONE Jesuit Priest I have found who fit the description of a warrior priest in the Moro campaigns. Out of the list of hundreds of Jesuits on record, a WARRIOR Jesuit Priest ('warrior' meaning actively engaged in the use of arms and fought in actual battles) was an EXTREME exception as recorded in the accounts of the Jesuits in the Philippines. To refer to these specific Jesuist above as Warriors is a distortion of first hand accounts.

He was the "famous Recollect missionary" at Butuan. The Jesuits record (1639) that this priest DISTINGUISHED himself from the others because he was a warrior. He was "El Padre Capitan" Fray Augustin San Pedro.

However, to use one Jesuit priest's accomplishments in war to reflect that other Jesuits were of like mind and spirit is a distortion of their accomplishments in the islands.

Some have implied that these warrior priests taught these natives the arts of Spanish war, ironically the ONE priest recorded as having done so taught natives from BUTUAN located in MINDANAO, not the Visayan region.


Martial Arts Topics / Re: map of cebu
« on: September 18, 2005, 11:54:49 AM »
From the linked article:

"4.)? The role of the warrior Jesuit priests that accompanied De Chavez?s expeditionary force. They also taught orasciones to the Christianized Cebuano natives during the long boat trip to Zamboanga. Thus orascion became an integral ritual among eskrimadors. "

This is UNTRUE in terms of these specific Jesuit Priests being WARRIORS. The statement above implies the Jesuits were fighting side by side with De Chavez's soldiers. If the soldiers were to read that today they would be spinning in their morions. I could believe them teaching orasciones to the natives, but there's no evidence of these two being warriors. The Spanish records of the JESUIT order themselves contradict this.

They were NOT warrior Jesuit Priests, because the Jesuits kept records of the Frays that accompanied the expedition AND the actual commentary by the Spanish soldiers who were ON that very Zamboanga expedition STATED so!

The De Chavez Zamboanga expedition was on April 6, 1635.
The two Jesuits friars who accompanied the De Chavez expedition were Pedro Guiterrez, the founder of Dapitan, and Melchor de Vera, who started the mission forts in Leyte.

"They (Jesuit Friars on the De Chavez expedition) were NOT very popular. Many of the (Spanish)  officers and men had no stomach for the enterprise, which took them far away from Manila and too CLOSE to the Moros." page 325

The Spanish soldiers were to build a fort in that area, but had questions on how to supply it with water. There was much grumbling because De Chavez put the Jesuit friar, Melchor de Vera in charge of construction. The Jesuits were more like foremen who assisted the engineers in finding a workable quarry of good adobe stone and a spring for a water source.

There was NO fighting involved, just plain BUILDING. The Jesuits were labeled as INQUISITIVE to the dismay of the Spanish who had to appease their new foreman.

Quoted from the book 'JESUITS IN THE PHILIPPINES' (  the actual records of the Jesuits from 1581- 1768):
One of the disgruntled soldiers had half a mind to stop the inquisitive Jesuit from making any further discoveries, muttering that he would much rather "put two bullets in this priest than Corralat (Kachil Kudarat)" page 326, Jesuits in the Philippines

These two Jesuits did chaplain work (that is recorded).
Friar de Vera's was on board with a Friar Armano on a separate expedition against DUTCH forces to  exhort and hear confessions of Spaniards and natives in the armada. The Spanish did not need any warrior friars because this expedition carried 2000 Spanish tercios and uncounted natives. No record of these Jesuits fighting at all. Other Jesuits were sent into the galleys to calm the chained "wretched" for the ordeal.

De Vega was again in Zamboanga but not with Chavez, it was during Corcuera's expedition and the friar was sent to ratify a peace treaty with Kudarat's followers, AFTER the battle had already finished.

There is no record of these specific friars actually taking up the sword against the Moros. Their job was to organize and spread Christian teachings, act as chaplains and assist in treaties/communication.

Beyond that is all unsubstantiated speculation.


Martial Arts Topics / OMISSIONS
« on: September 17, 2005, 10:52:49 AM »
Research into European ARMS (meaning the use of pike and fireARMS) were crucial to my understanding of the Spanish conquest. There's still much to be done to bust the myth of 'sword versus sword' ONLY exchanges between Spanish and Filipinos implied in articles such as this one:

The author writes about European superiority over Asians in their development and usage of ARMS, but then swiftly segues specifically about his study in RAPIERS and CUT/THRUST swordsmanship. A study that is worthwhile and of true merit. However, prefacing your article on European superiority of ARMS over Asian weapons, and then ignoring the actual ARMS (firearms) which were superior to Asian weaponry is a HUGE omission!

There's also no mention of the other methods of Conquest (example: religion, trade, aliances), but most importantly the omission of the use of the pike in SUPPORT of FIREARMS as huge contributors to the Spanish success in the Philippines is a disservice to maintaining historical accuracy. The author omits that a study of the methods of Divide and Conquer, the Volley use of the Arquebus, formations of Pike and Shot, are all crucial elements in understanding the European 'superior' methods of Asian Conquest.

An unfortunate omission such as this inevitably perpetuates a FALSE myth of Spanish Conquistadores' superiority in ARMS, to specifically indicate their use of the sword.

Simply put, a school devoted to the use of European pike and shot formations would quickly widen the eyes of European sword enthusiasts who may unknowingly overemphasize the use of the sword and dagger over the TRUE superior European ARMS used during the period of Spanish Philippine Conquest... the FIREARM.

The article displays a well done description of the author's new found enthusiasm for European swordsmanship, however imagine if the omission included the sword's importance in battle? Would we idly sit back and read articles devoted to ONLY the use of the dagger and shield symbolizing the SUPERIOR arms of Europe without questioning it's historical validity?

It would seem that simply stating the study of European swordsmanship and its merits would be enough without including this bit about European superiority in ARMs, especially if the author shies away from revealing which these superior weapons actually were....


Martial Arts Topics / SAYOC in Fayetteville
« on: August 11, 2005, 10:15:31 AM »
At the moment we are currently teaching SF operators stationed at Fort Bragg. However, we are in the midst of establishing a public Sayoc Kali training group in Fayetteville, NC as well.

If you are a paratrooper stationed at Fort Bragg send me a PM (or contact  me via the website) and I can get you in contact with the groups training with us. We were just there last weekend. We've got a good group and it continues to grow as word gets around.

Sayoc Kali

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