Dog Brothers Public Forum

One should note that this is a Real Contact Stick Fighting event, no empty hand fighting permitted (unless you loose your weapon of course)

This statement was in regards to whether someone would be interested in an empty hand fight.

I'm confused about the statement I quoted as I'm also interested in empty hand fights at Dog Brothers events. Why would empty hand fighting not be permitted? If knives, belts, bokken, garden hoses, etc... are viable options at a "Real Contact Stick Fighting event" then surely empty hand should be.

I've also seen video clips of people fighting empty hand vs one stick. I may have missed the memo but this is leaving me pretty confused.

Anyone else have an opinion on this?

I'm also unclear as to who has the authority to "permit" something at a gathering, from my understanding you could fight anyone, with anything you wanted, as long as they agreed to it. Are there certain people, such as C-Mighty Dog that decide things like this for everyone else?

Please enlighten me.

Just a thought on privacy, and fear of looking bad, etc..

I can't remember an instance in any of the instructional DVD's, etc... where fighters have been referred to with their names, its usually something like "black hits no shirt with a caveman", or something along those lines, unless you identify yourself as being "no shirt" or something, it can be hard to tell who's who sometimes.

I also know that I've seen Top Dog commenting on his own fights and referring to himself as yellow, if there was ever a time to "reveal" a fighters identity it would probably be saying "then I hit him with this..." just because its an easier way to communicate rather than referring to yourself in the third person by a pseudonym.

Plus I don't know if it's just me and the people I train with, but people are usually proud, or at least not ashamed of taking their lumps, what's wrong with saying "yeah I got blasted but kept fighting, or yeah I got blasted but fought 3 more times that day", to me thats more impressive than if your just smashing everyone all the time.

My 2 cents.

It sucks that Cote lost, I jumped off my couch when he threw his leg over Belchers head to finish that Kimura, knowing he trains with Fabio I thought he would have had that one for sure.

Better luck next time though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhxDQgbuZ3o

The MMA fighters lost.   A good "reality based" system that accepts "ding and dent" style minimal rules sparring would be your best bet.  DBMA is one of those......

MMA is very one fighter oriented, spends too much time on the ground, and has stage set items (minimal clothes, barefoot, NutCup, mouthpiece, rounds)and rules.  Look how much time they spend on the ground.............   Without a cup some of those hold risk your nuts.........  I would call them a good start.


Practise like with anything else is key, get as realistic practice as you can and move from there.

LOL of course the mma fighters lost in that run through the woods, try to defeat the multiple attackers scenario. as you said MMA has "stage set items (minimal clothes, barefoot, NutCup, mouthpiece, rounds)and rules.", what do you call that, a set stage, they've got equipment, theres no rules but they know their not in any danger (which is probably the best piece of knowledge as far as fighting goes).

The MMA fighters lost in the simulation (with set terms, items, environment) that the other guys train for? of course they did.

Heres a question though, how come Brian Stann, a marine, who was there, did just as poorly as all the other UFC guys, wasn't he trained for multiple attackers, harsh conditions, and weapons? He got the exact same training as the marines and lost just as quickly as the UFC guys without it.

You also claim that "reality styles" would be the best bet to learn for these situations, and then use DBMA as an example. Then you make a criticism of MMA saying:
 
"MMA is very one fighter oriented, spends too much time on the ground, and has stage set items (minimal clothes, barefoot, NutCup, mouthpiece, rounds)and rules.  Look how much time they spend on the ground.............   Without a cup some of those hold risk your nuts.........  I would call them a good start."

How is that different than Dog Brothers fights at the gathering. 99% of the time they are one fighter oriented, most spend time on the ground, they have a set location, set date, set time, you know beforehand (even if its just the day of who you are going to fight, and often if its a more well known fighter what they like to do). Agreed upon protection is another issue. I've fought a few stick fights, I've seen more, and I've seen more on videos, you see people wearing, knee pads, elbow pads, shoes, CUPS, fencing masks, mouthgaurds, pants, etc....

Thats the same amount of protection if not far far more (Masks?) than MMA fighters go in with. You also said without a cup some of the holds risk your nuts, and theres two things wrong with that, one is that none of your holds hurt your nuts ever if your doing them properly, your probably referencing armbars, and if they hurt your nuts your doing them wrong.  Well without a mask those sticks flying by your head risk your eyes, nose, lips.... does that mean you shouldn't fight with a mask on when you stickfight?

You also state as a negative to realistic training that MMA has rules, but so does DBMA (which is the example you gave remember). Everyones friends at the end of the day, and try to leave everyone with the same IQ they came with DRAMATICALLY changes the stick fights.  How much can stickfights prepare you for streetfights or reality situations if they totally take out the aggressiveness, maliciousness, anger, and bad intentions that a real opponent would be coming with.

I'm not saying that what DBMA does is bad or wrong, not at all because I believe in it and am a fan of it, however I think alot of people are blind to the fact that stickfights are essentially MMA matches with sticks, more protection, and a few less rules. None of us are ninjas....

Just to add my two cents.

First off, he wasn't holding it for nearly as long as Joe Rogan made it out to be, when Joe Rogan counted to 5 seconds he was watching the slow motion replay, which I think he did mention and realize after he did it. Although I definetly think it was held too long.

There has also been a few instances in the UFC of people "fake tapping" where they tap twice or make like there tapping, then slip out when their opponent momentarily releases their grip,  I think CB Dollaway has been accused of this a few times.  Although once again, I don't think there is anyone who would consider that close to a fake tap, (I think he tapped nine times).

I liked Palhares going into this, but I'm not that big of a fan now, I can see the logic in holding it until the ref stops the fight, but in this case it was pretty extreme, especially considering it was a heel hook.

What's also interesting is that he was given a 90 day suspension, but what kind of punishment is that? Most of these guys only fight ever 3 or 4 months anyway, its likely he wouldn't have fought for 90 days anyway, this is in comparison to Babalu who got completely FIRED for holding a choke too long.

I'd much rather have someone hold a choke for 2 extra seconds on me, than have someone do the same thing with a heelhook.

Hardy is gonna get mauled, it wont even be close..... Yes I'm aware Serra had his lightning flash KO, but its not gonna happen twice, GSP by domination.

Member of the DB Tribe.

Pardon my ignorance but member of the tribe is?

"Dog" status?

C-Dog?

Good stuff.

Any idea on what will be covered? Or other details, price, location, length?

What would someone's wrestling ability have to do with their closed guard subs and sweeps?

And the subs haven't been a secret for a long time, and theres no secret in jiu jitsu academies either, the blue belts to black belts are all doing the same moves, its how well they are done that counts. For me it goes back to whether or not people are actually good at jiu jitsu rather than just being given credit for it if they can avoid armbars.  The other thing, in regards to jiu jitsu guys not taking wrestling seriously enough, it's almost impossible for them to reach a level at wrestling where it would compare to the wrestlers already in the UFC, unless your GSP your not going to suddenly outwrestle the wrestlers. 

I think Rickson Gracie explains this point pretty well with this quote from an interview.

Rickson "I don't look for to knockout someone standing up, I look for to not be in a position to be knocked out myself. I look for the position to take my opponent where I want to be. That is my concept. The day that I think that I have to train kickboxing to beat a kickboxing champion, that will be the day I lose.

13. So you don't think that by training in kickboxing, that it can in some way help you to neutralize the kickboxer's game?

Rickson: Much to the contrary. Show me a jiu-jitsu fighter who trains kickboxing who has an advantage over a kickboxer standing up.....and then maybe I'll change my opinion. But this never happens. They always end up trying to do the technique wrong., end up clinch anyway) and lose big opportunities."

(I got that from the thread "rickson predicts the stand and wang phenomenon" from the mma.tv underground forums)

While I realize the importance of cross training, its often the guys who are masters of one thing that are champions over a bunch of jack of all trades type guys. One of my jiu jitsu instructors explained Demian Maia's strategy (for the nate quarry fight) to me like :

Demian Maia sweeps world class blackbelts in ADCC and Mundials regularly.

No one else in the middle weight division is even close to these world class blackbelts in their half guard top game.

Demian pulls half guard, gets the sweep easily and is on top, then he will destroy them with his far superior Jiu Jitsu from the top.

This is exactly what he did to Nate Quarry, do any of us think Demian Maia would have won if he tried to outwrestle quarry to get on top, or rock him on the feet then take him down?  Maia is one of my favourite fighters and if he tried to strike or wrestle with Quarry he would have got killed.

If you want your closed guard (or any guard) to be effective in mma, dont train your wrestling (which doesnt have a closed guard) or your kickboxing, train your closed guard.

Just like I wouldn't expect a wrestler or kickboxer to pull guard.

My 2 cents (or maybe thats like 4 cents cause its so long)

I don't agree with the closed guard is dead assessment at all. I think the problem is that too many people are being considered good at jiu jitsu when they really aren't.  It seems that every single fighter that enters the octagon nowadays is a BJJ blackbelt.  While they might have been given these blackbelts there is in my opinion a major difference and major discrepancy in the skills of a fighter (or even wrestler) who becomes a bjj blackbelt, rather than a bjj blackbelt who becomes a fighter.

Think about all the controversy that Rashad Evan's newly awarded black belt caused, the biggest justification for it was that he wasn't submitted by Thiago Silva, another blackbelt, so he must deserve it. While it's true he won the grappling portion of it, how well do you think Rashad would have done if for whatever reason he was playing guard against thiago silva, he would have likely got smashed, then people would say: "Closed Guard is dead, Rashad is a black belt and got killed".

But does Rashad have BJJ blackbelt skills from his guard? Does he even have them from the top?  I'd say no to both points, do I think he could out grapple people who are bjj blackbelts, yes, I think he could, but thats not his jiu jitsu.

The same goes for Nate Marquardt, yes he was awarded a blackbelt in bjj, but do we really know how good his jiu jitsu is?  I know BJJ blackbelts that would be blue belts at clubs only hours away from me, when their guards aren't effective against elite wrestlers, will we question the guard? I dont think so.

I'm kind of rambling here but.... the idea is that theres nothing wrong with the position its that people are being given too much credit for their skills, and therefore their expectations are too high.

In my opinion its akin to saying that fighting with sticks in the largo or medio ranges is dead in stickfighting because so many people can crash through that bubble with a roof block and start their clinch/grappling games. Are those ranges dead? of course not, but you might think so if you saw someone with excellent closing fighting someone with average skills in the longer ranges.

Well I think the only reason he was able to tough it out, and keep fighting is because he was already in the fight, high adrenaline, etc.... in training I bet he would have tapped to something like that. And although it clearly had an impact on him in the further rounds, it almost looked like he was over it by the end of the fight, and whether he was posturing or not, he did say it wasnt that bad.  I've seen people have their arms broken from bicep crushers before though, and he wanted to finish the grappling match (it was a competition and he hadn't yet seen his floppy arm).

Also the submission is more of a compression submission rather than a twisting one (heel hook) so typically it attacks the calf muscle more than the knee itself (although apparently your entire knee can "explode") I've seen people have their arms broken from bicep crushers before though, and he wanted to finish the grappling match (it was a competition and he hadn't yet seen his floppy arm).

As for him finishing it, its hard to say if he could have finished with that particular submission, he almost comes up on top at the end, but it's probably fairly difficult to come up on top of tyson griffin like that, and had he switched to another submission he may have lost it (tyson griffin can scramble).  I mean in fights there is always what if's. I remember at the time of the fight it being extremely interesting and making the fight that much more exciting though.

Kali-Silat!?

lol it must be, he didn't finish the guy with it...

hardy har har

In all seriousness though I wouldn't claim this for Kali-Silat, (or any other one single grappling style for that matter) as it comes up in most of them, bjj for sure, catch-wrestling, probably in pre-modern judo, sambo I'd bet.

While I think that they should be allowed, and I do think Hamill was clearly going to lose whether or not Jones landed those elbows, I'm glad that Jones was disqualified because he did end the fight with a foul, the rules are there for a reason and I'm glad there followed.

and I think there is another reason they dont want downward elbows, I'm not sure if its illegal to attack the spine (i've seen people attempt twisters) but if you end up sprawling on a guy I think they don't want people throwing downward elbows to the spine as those have potential for serious injury.  Whether or not they should allow them to the spine is up for debate but that may have been an influence on the rule as well.

I admit to having been sucked into the soap opera--  from the coaches on down (contender status for all time worst TUF coach to Rampage;  worst ever levels of conditioning; possible worst fighter ever in the finals (Nelson) strange denouements (both Kimbo and Big Baby) and more-- what a fascinating study in human behavior.

You really think Nelson was the worst fighter ever in the finals? I think thats a little harsh, even without the hindsight that he won the finale tonight.

Josh Haynes lost to Bisping in the finals of season 3, I'd argue Roy is better than him.

Manny Gamburyan also fought in the finals, and I'd argue that Roy is a better fighter than Stephan Bonnar too.

He might look like the worst fighter (although Josh Haynes might have him beat there too) but I think there have been alot worse guys in there. Plus he was introduced as a kung fu fighter, and that comedy has gotta be worth at least something.

This whole season was garbage though, especially rampage and Rashad, why trash talk each other face to face if your not going to actually fight, I guess the idea is it boosts ratings but after the 9th time I'd rather be watching commercials than that.

Also on the subject of the finale, I'm glad that Jon Jones lost by disqualification he was clearly the superior fighter, but he committed an obvious foul and I'm glad they followed the rules and DQ'd him.

Actually the trend lately has been judges (specifically the supreme court of canada) are becoming more and more involved in the law MAKING process.

Which by definition isn't really there job, we elect politicians to legislate bills and judges interpret and enforce these laws when issues arise and things aren't clear.

It's a really tricky situation as judges in canada aren't elected but appointed, by the prime minister (supreme court judges) and he's likely to pick judges who are partisan to his politics, then these judges are going about impacting what the laws are through their rulings.

The best example is gay marriage in Canada, it was deemed unconstitutional by the supreme court, as they decided it was in violation of the rights of homosexual people, and the law changed because of it.

IMO judges are supposed to be interpreters of the law, and to make decision based on what the laws ARE, not change laws, or impact them based on your decisions.

We elect people to put the laws the majority of us want in place, these appointed judges shouldnt be changing what our elected leaders have provided for us.

It's a two sided coin but I really feel this trend has got to stop and judges need to go back to making judgements based on the law that exists.

Hopefully, we won't see anyone pursuing an agenda and trying to change the laws of canada, hopefully the waiver is honored, the judgement is given in the way the law deems it should be, and the judge does his job.

On the other hand, he could be pro-martial arts? Who knows.

We talked about alot of this type of stuff in alot of my university classes and most ridiculous stuff like this gets thrown out.

Yes on one hand no one should be able to "sign away" your rights.... but on the other hand, common sense says this lawsuit is fucking retarded.

Usually common sense wins out in these types of cases. Usually.

ttt,

anyone?

I'm not sure of Crazy Cossacks experience, but from my experience, I've seen plenty of guys go from the gathering to the hospital,  plenty of guys knocked out cold, cut,(in need of stitches) ect, ect.
I personally have broken a knuckle. feel fortunate thats the worst for me, though I have been clobbered pretty severly from time to time.
...I guess we could conclude pain is relative.
                                             C-HD

Your probably much much more experienced than me, thats maybe why my recollection is it's not so painful, I've only ever had 3 full contact stickfights so take my advice for what it's worth.

Also pain is relative but note I put its not as painful as it LOOKS, that doesnt mean its not very painful, just that I would say typically it looks like it hurts more than it does. cause it does look like it hurts alot.

I was wondering if anyone, out there, some way, some how, had any video footage of the 3 stick fights I had at the Toronto DBMA training camp.

I've been trying to convince people from my Jiu-Jitsu/MMA gym to seriously consider stick fighting and most of them have told me they'll try it as long as they've seen me do it.  (I think because I'm a "real" person, and if they see someone they know doing it, it becomes easier to do).

I know a few people had cameras out that day and if anyone's got any footage of my fights, I'd love to get it, so hopefully I can get some new training partners (so far I've been starved for them).

Anyway, it was the Toronto DBMA training camp, I was wearing black shorts (nike I believe), black shoes, and a black shirt with white writing and logos on it, shirt would say Joslins MMA and I think Alliance Jiu Jitsu symbol on the side.  I had 3 fights, all single stick.

If anyone out there has footage of this I'd really like it.

Thanks to anyone who can help.

This sounds awesome,

How many seminars/classes are planned over the course of the weekend?  And any idea on what they'll be covering?

looks like we have 5 people coming from toronto in sept.

Toronto?

Where in Toronto, I'm in Hamilton and haven't found anyone at all interested in stickfighting, (well some were interested until it came time to actually do it....).

-- More info please?

While I think this would be a cool game... its just like any other game you could get out there, with the novelty of a recognizable (to you) name.

How many people know about the dog brothers, maybe theres alot, but not nearly enough to appeal to any video game company looking to make a buck (and thats what there trying to do) by making a game about stickfighting.  When they could make the exact same game and call it "Lord of the Rings Fighter" or something like that, and use much more recognizable characters.  This game would appeal to a far far greater amount of people than a dog brothers game.  Even if it was something as simple as the characters you could play, and where you were fighting.

(Middle Earth as opposed to.... Earth...)


Furthermore, I think if the Dog Brothers lent there name to a video game, I really think they'd be whoring themselves out, and I would lose almost all respect I have for them.

Does the idea of defanging the snake become lost in full contact stickfighting when you wear such heavy gloves (hockey gloves etc). I've always thought this idea was one of the best the FMA had, but with the gloves does its effectiveness drop?

Is it really "real" contact stickfighting if you add hand protection which almost negates the whole idea of defanging the snake.

I understand you can still hit the wrist, forearm, elbow, etc... But do the gloves take the emphasis off the hand as the primary target?