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Messages - rogt

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Just happened to catch this on my "dog brothers" Google news search.


Granada Takes on Four Titles from Original Productions

LONDON, September 25: Granada International has acquired worldwide distribution rights to four new factual programs from Original Productions: Twister Sisters, Backyard Nation, Our Lives: Dog Brothers and Our Lives: Disappeared.

The 6x1-hour Twister Sisters follows partners in the Twister Sisters Tornado Tour Company in Minneapolis as they head out on the road for their annual pilgrimage in search of the biggest and most destructive tornados on earth.

The 4x1-hour Backyard Nation is the ultimate backyard makeover show, which uses $100,000 in labor and materials to provide lucky homeowners with their ultimate fantasy in over-the-top backyard designs.

The one-hour special Our Lives: Dog Brothers explores the world of underground fight clubs. Twice a year, members from all over the world attend a tribal ritual they call “The Gathering of the Pack,” which is an intense day of head-to-head combat. They wear no protective padding or clothing, other than gloves and a thin fencing mask, and there are no rules, no judges, no referees and no trophies.

 Another one-hour special for sale at MIPCOM is Our Lives: Disappeared. This factual crime show reveals the forgotten true stories of missing children and their families. As the families share their touching stories, the program hunts for clues and memories.

 Emmanuelle Namiech, Granada’s director of acquisitions and co-productions, said: “We are delighted to continue our relationship with Original Productions. An independent company that always finds the most original aspects of our world today and captures them in the most creative and entertaining way for TV viewers.”

© WSN INC. No part of this article can be used, reprinted, copied or
stored in any medium without the publisher's authorization.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: June 2007 Gathering
« on: June 22, 2007, 06:08:17 PM »
I can't make this one myself, but I'm sure it will be a precious time.  Good luck to all the fighters, and I can't wait to hear all about it!


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Capoeira application in Dog Brother's Training
« on: August 14, 2006, 05:19:48 PM »
Most of what I've seen of the art (which looks very cool BTW) were spinning kicks at high targets (defined as above the ribs), which typically aren't very successful in Gathering fights.  But I think the Capoeira techniques could do a lot of damage in a Gathering if the concentration were on low targets (knees, thighs, ribs).  In general, no art by itself works particularly well at a Gathering unless you spend some time training it specifically for those kinds of fights.

Maybe you were asking specifically what any Capoeira practioners think of the DB material...  I'm just trying to start up some discussion.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: The Tradition and Culture Thread
« on: August 13, 2006, 12:14:19 PM »
Woof Nasigoreng,

I think there's plenty to get out of including culture in the teaching of martial arts.  Even the elements considered meaningful only in terms of culture and tradition contain some tidbits that have useful applications, but this may not be obvious from the way it's taught.  In some cases, the teacher himself may not be aware of said applications, which generally puts the ball in the students court to do some exploration of his own.  When put to them respectfully and in the spirit of genuine exploration (as opposed to trying to show them up), my teachers have always been supportive of it.  There's also something kind of cool about practicing something for no other reason than that it's been passed down through centuries.  In that way, you make yourself part of the tradition that others will appreciate long after you're gone.

The only time teaching culture/tradition is problem is when the student is under the impression that he's being taught how to fight.  As long as it's made clear which parts are for fighting and which parts are culture/tradition, the student is free to make up his own mind.  A student will often be more open to training techniques in the formal, traditional way as long as it's made clear that how you practice it and how you'd use it in a fight are two different things, and spend at least some time practicing it in the way you'd fight with it.


Martial Arts Topics / Our Environment
« on: August 11, 2006, 11:03:33 AM »
Woof Buzwardo,

Maybe you think these snide little remarks of yours ("fat chance", "I expect many will be able to deal with the resultant blank page", "This conciliatory note certainly warms my heart") are oh-so witty and amusing, but they really just make it difficult to have a meaningful discussion with you.

You've been on this forum for a while, so I have to assume you're not just trolling.  Consider this a humble request for you to lighten up on the sarcasm a bit and engage in a mutually respectful discussion.


Martial Arts Topics / Zacarias Moussaoui is guilty!
« on: April 15, 2006, 11:13:16 AM »
This idea that Moussaoui's failure to spill what he knew about 9/11 to the FBI makes him an accessory seems pretty flimsy as a legal argument.  Did he not have "the right to remain silent" once he was arrested?

The agent initially investigating Moussaoui pointed out the sketchiness of a Middle Eastern immigrant taking flying lessons (who didn't want to know how to take off land) to her superiors, and suggested that they search the guy's hard disk, and they basically ignored her.  Who are these superiors and why aren't they being charged as accesories?  Does this not bother any of the people now screaming for Moussaoui's blood?

It just seems like the prosecutors are letting their desire to execute some warm body over 9/11 get in the way of investigating some sketchy circumstances.  A guy whom alleged high-level planners of 9/11 in US custody all say was not involved "confesses" to his participation in it, knowing he'll be executed, and the prosecutors aren't in the least bit curious as to why?

Martial Arts Topics / Zacarias Moussaoui is guilty!
« on: April 14, 2006, 08:59:40 AM »
How do you act as an accessory to murder while you're in jail?  Seems like the FBI agents who stalled the efforts to search Moussaoui's hard drive and investigate him further before 9/11 were just as much "accessories" by that logic, not to mention a president who basically ignored a daily intelligence briefing entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US".

Also, the prosecutors appear to be taking Moussaoui's confession to being the "20th hijacker" completely at face value, despite statements from supposed high-level planners of 9/11 (who are in US custody) that Moussaoui was judged unsuitable for such an operation and was not involved.  Are they just frustrated that all the actual hijackers are dead and see this as an opportunity to execute somebody for 9/11?

Martial Arts Topics / Zacarias Moussaoui is guilty!
« on: April 11, 2006, 07:07:23 PM »
Who exactly did he murder?  He was in jail when the 9/11 attacks occured.

Martial Arts Topics / Marine Charged With Murder in Iraq Deaths
« on: March 10, 2005, 05:40:51 PM »
Quote from: toughman
the enemy within-Another example-just like the so called prisoner abuse nonsense -another attempt to discredit the military

As far as I know, it's the USMC that's bringing charges against Pantano.  Is the miltary trying to discredit itself?

Martial Arts Topics / Marine Charged With Murder in Iraq Deaths
« on: February 22, 2005, 03:23:58 PM »
Neither of those articles even mentions the fact that one of Pantano's fellow marines gave a different account of those events.  We've heard no details of that so far, probably because of an explicit order not to discuss it in public.  But there's nothing stopping Pantano's family (and his civilian lawyer) from flooding the media with his version of the story.

If it all went down the way these articles say it did, then I agree that it makes little sense for him to be charged with murder.  Whatever this other marine told his superiors, I imagine it would have to be something pretty shocking in order for it to result in murder charges against a fellow marine in combat.  It's not like the Corps is run by a bunch of liberal pansies.


Martial Arts Topics / Marine Charged With Murder in Iraq Deaths
« on: February 15, 2005, 07:06:59 PM »
Hmm...  I have no problem finding article after article that says what an all-around great guy Pantano is, what a bad precendent it sets for a combat Marine to be charged with murder, as well as presenting some negative characterizations of his accuser, but none that present any real details about the incident.

Obviously the guy is innocent until proven guilty, but I can't imagine why the Marines would prosecute one of their own for murder (during combat no less) without some reason to believe that the charges may have merit.  It's possible that Pantano killed those two Iraqis because of something they witnessed.  I'm interested in hearing exactly what his (supposedly "disgruntled") accuser claims happened.


Martial Arts Topics / "Kali" player on trial for killing bouncer
« on: October 26, 2004, 05:01:12 PM »
Quote from: SB_Mig

Cobra Kai Team Member

I just saw "The Karate Kid" again over the weekend, and I never get tired of watching that scene where Mr. Miyagi and the Cobra Kai instructor negotiate...

"We do not train to be merciful here.  Mercy is for the weak!"


P.S.  I once heard of a local SF band called "Sweep the Leg, Johnny".

Martial Arts Topics / Summer Gathering - Mixed Weapons Fights
« on: June 11, 2004, 10:04:28 AM »

Just curious as to whether or not anybody plans to fight with nanchaku, bokken, or any other non-stick weapons at the upcoming Summer Gathering.  I'm thinking about doing a mixed-weapon fight this time, if I can find a partner (and the guts to actually go through with it come June 27th).


Martial Arts Topics / Spain's terrorist attack
« on: March 18, 2004, 04:53:09 PM »
Woof Kalani,

>Anyone else's thoughts on this? Personally, I think it's a shame that
>the new prime minister is taking this route, but if that's the path
>he feels the country needs to walk, that is his decision and the
>right of the people of Spain.

Considering that Aznar pushed Spain into the Iraq war over the
objections of 90% of the population, it should come as little
surprise his party would be given the boot at the next available

I think it's ridiculous how some people are calling the Spanish
"appeasers".  Unlike us, they've been dealing with terrorist attacks
on their soil for decades now, and they've had enough recent
experience living under a fascist dictatorship to know that
militarizing your society and curtailing civil liberties is not the
way to fight terrorism.


Martial Arts Topics / Violence against Women
« on: May 15, 2003, 04:49:55 PM »
While it's good that this cadet is actually being prosecuted, I wouldn't take it as evidence that the Air Force is making any genuine effort to reform itself in this area.  Let's not forget that it took several dozen of these incidents occuring over more than a decade in order for the Air Force's top commanders to finally decide that yeah, maybe they should take this problem seriously.

As was mentioned in one of the articles posted, the female cadet in question reported the incident immediately and was herself reprimanded for fraternizing with older cadets and drinking alcohol.  It's unclear whether or not Meester received any punishment, but I won't be surprised if it turns out that *no* discplinary action was taken against him.

Clearly the top brass knew this was going on.  Why do you suppose they did nothing about it for all this time?


Martial Arts Topics / Violence against Women
« on: May 13, 2003, 01:03:30 PM »
Hi Linda!  :)

>Also, the guys from the rape survey would probably rob banks and
>murder people "under certain circumstances."

I dunno...  Saying you'd rob a bank if you could get away with it is
about the same as saying that you'd just pocket an envelope full of
$100 bills if you found it on street instead of turning it in to the
cops.  But by saying you'd commit rape if you could get away with it,
you're saying that you don't see a woman as a human being deserving
of the same respect as you, but as a piece of property for you to
simply take in the absence of anybody willing or able to stop you
from doing so.  I'm not saying people should be locked up for how
they answer survey questions, but the kind of man who is unable to
resist the temptation to use his superior strength to simply take
what he wants from a woman (or anybody else) does not belong in
civilized society.

>Rape & war. Agreed - it's hideous. The following does not justify
>ANYTHING, ONE BIT; it's a mere exercise in perspective. In these
>wars, for every woman raped, how many men died? Of those men, how
>many were not volunteers? Of the volunteers, how many were swayed to
>fight by political pressures or social expectations? After they were
>finally in the thick of it, how many wished they hadn't volunteered?
>Revisit: humans are violent & imperfect creatures.

I don't think it can be simply written off as "humans are violent."
I think in most wars where soldiers (or paramilitaries) were raping
the vanquished, the practice had the implicit approval of their
commanders as a means of terrorizing the population.

For example, look at the recent rape scandal that went down at the US
Air Force Academy.  Four top academy officals, including the
superintendent and commandant of cadet training, were removed from
their positions (but not discharged) for having covered up dozens of
rapes and other incidents of sexual harssament of female cadets by
male cadets over a period of 10 years.  In several cases, women who
complained to their superiors or sought to file charges actually had
charges filed against them, while their assailants faced no
disciplinary action at all.  A 1997 survey revealed that 10% of
female cadets said they had been sexually assaulted within the past
10 months, 75% of whom said they would not report the incident for
fear of retribution.  A 1993 probe by the General Accounting Office
discovered systematic harassment of female cadets at all three
service academies.  If this is how future members of our elite
officer corp treat their female fellow cadets (with the tacit
approval of their commanders) what will likely be their attitudes
towards the civilian population of a country against whom they'll be
fighting a war later?


Martial Arts Topics / Violence against Women
« on: May 12, 2003, 01:54:26 PM »
>Concerning the definition of rape: First, major kudos to Rog for
>providing the source of his data. This is quite rare and I sincerely
>commend him. However he left out the best one of all:
>"73% of those forced to have sex fail to recognize their experience
>as rape."
>Go look folks! Its right there in his cited piece. I had remembered
>reading this some time ago, but my memory failed me as to the
>asserted number and I thank Rog for providing it.
>That said, the thought behind this number is is pretty special and
>takes us into a dimension where rational thought no longer applies.
>It also makes clear the utterly political nature of the data.

Yeah, I have to admit that even I was a little bit suspect of that
particular stat.  However, I don't think it's an attempt to
artificially inflate the frequency with which rapes occur in order to
push some political agenda.  My interpretation is that many victims
of certain types of non-consentual sex are hesitant to call it rape
because maybe they knew the perpetrator, and actually did consent to
doing other "things," but didn't want to have sex.  If the victim is
a child, then chances are he doesn't even know what sex is, let alone

The point is that we're largely conditioned to see only obviously
forced sex by one or more random psychos (like in the "Death Wish"
movies) as "rape."  It gets more complicated the better the victim
and perpetrator know each other, and how much consentual stuff went
on before it got non-consentual.

>I spent 3 days (and it easily could have been more) in a Mexican
>prison for, as best as I can tell, preventing the rape of two silly
>American cockteasers.

Assuming it went down like you said (and I have no reason to think it
didn't), then yeah, those chicks were pretty stupid, and it's a good
thing for them that you were there.  However, I'm sure you'll agree
that we all do stupid things sometimes (especially when we're young),
and that nobody deserves to get raped just for being stupid.

>As for date rape, I thoroughly agree with the point that there is a
>place where a goodly percentage of men are dangerous. THAT'S RIGHT--
>and that's why if a woman goes there questions are raised-- because
>most women know this. No paradigm shift required.

Sure, it's only fair that questions be raised in that situation.
Questions meant to determine how far things went before she decided
she wanted to go no further, how she let him know and how he
responded, whether or not they were drunk/stoned, and whether she
consented at the time but later regretted it are perfectly
appropriate.  What's not appropriate are questions about her sexual
history, how she dresses, or any other questions intended to suggest
that the perpetrator had some reason to think she implicitly wanted
it regardless of what she explicitly told him.


Martial Arts Topics / Violence against Women
« on: May 09, 2003, 04:46:18 PM »
>>We know that rape has been a common phenomenon in every war and that
>>it was even a military policy in some (e.g. male Christian Serbs
>>raped female Bosnian muslims as a tactic to 'degrade' the communal
>_You_ may know that "rape was a common phenomenon in every war," but
>do you have evidence that rape by the Americans or Brits was a common
>phenomenon in either of the Gulf Wars? I've heard that it was also
>very rare during the American Revolutionary War and Ameican Civil
>War. Do you have evidence that proves otherwise?

I don't know how common it was, but I believe US soldiers did commit
rapes of indigenous women during the Vietnam War, as well as during
our war in the Phillipines in the late 1800s.  It's even worse if you
include rapes committed (of which some of the victims were nuns) by
US proxy forces in various Latin American nations from the 50s up
through at least the late 80s.

But you're right, rapes don't necessarily happen in all wars.
They're just one of a set of special tactics used under circumstances
where it becomes necessary to terrorize the civilian population, most
often to erode their willingness to support any resistance to the invading forces.

>>But why do men expect us to begin with an assumption of trust?
>I'm a guy, and _I_ don't begin with an assumption of trust when I
>meet a stranger, and my trust is also limited in various ways even
>with most people I've known for a long time. I've never heard anyone
>say that a person should assume others are automatically to be

Of course this is the logical, rational way to think, but come on!
Regarding date rape specifically, when you're on a date with somebody
you like, who's putting their best foot forward and trying to get you
to feel comfortable around them, you're not thinking that they could
turn out to be a psycho.  This person is trying to make you like
them, is trying to get you to trust them.  You won't know whether or
not they're a rapist until you start messing around.

Some interesting stats (with references cited) are at:

It's no coincidence that 85% of campus rapes are date rapes, and 84%
of college men who've committed date rape say that what they did was
definitely not rape.  Also according to this data, 40% of men
surveyed say that they would commit rape "under certain


Martial Arts Topics / Violence against Women
« on: May 08, 2003, 01:09:40 PM »
Interesting article in the context of our present discussion:

Two hazing victims say violence was surprising
Girls describe choking, kicking at football game ritual

NORTHBROOK, Illinois (CNN) --Two high school girls who had to be treated at the hospital after a hazing by older students said Thursday they had no idea that what was supposed to be a touch football game was going to be a violent attack.

"I was strangled and choked, and I was kicked in the head repeatedly," Lauren, a suburban Chicago high school junior, said.

Another, junior class member, Marina, said she was "repeatedly kicked and punched," adding "they kicked my tailbone to the point that it fractured."

The girls, identified only by first names, spoke to CNN about Sunday's incident at a local park near here which was supposed to be a touch football game between Glenbrook North High School junior and senior girls.

"This has been a tradition in our school, to play football, not [to] be beaten up and put into the hospital," Marina said.

The girls said they had been told they would not be physically harmed but might have to endure light hazing such as ketchup, mustard and whipped cream being smeared in their hair.

Three other girls were treated and released from Glenbrook Hospital, spokeswoman Karen Ganz told CNN Wednesday. Ganz declined to describe their injuries because the patients are minors.
Attorney compares attack to lynching

Police said criminal charges against the perpetrators could be filed Thursday or Friday. Authorities said an amateur videotape shot at the scene indicates premeditation because some of the attackers had baseball bats.

"We believe there was some premeditation on the part of some of the attackers to go after some specific victims," Rollin Soskin, an attorney representing Lauren and Marina, said appearing with them on CNN's "American Morning."

"Nobody brings a baseball bat or a paint pellet gun to a powder puff football game."

"This was a vicious attack," Soskin said. "This was a lynching."

The tape shows several students huddled together on the ground while others threw objects at them, including large plastic buckets.

One girl walks behind the seated girls and slaps them on the back of the head. Another girl holds up what appears to be an intestine. At least one girl reported having a pig's intestine wrapped around her neck.

Witnesses also reported that urine, feces and fish guts were thrown and others said they had been forced to eat mud.

"Basically it started out as a fun hazing like our initiation into our senior year," said a junior girl who had been injured. "About 10 minutes into it everything changed -- buckets were flying ... people were bleeding. Girls were unconscious."

Dozens of students had come to watch the event and some of them, including male bystanders, joined in.
Principal supports prosecution

The school's principal, Michael Riggle, said Wednesday the school supports criminal prosecution of the perpetrators.

"I feel that the behavior that went on was certainly extreme and I think that it does get into the point of criminal actions," Riggle told CNN. "The school is fully supportive of prosecution at this point."

But, Riggle said, the school's jurisdiction in the matter is "very limited" and it is up to the sheriff's department to press charges.

In 1979, there were problems with powder puff or touch football games and the school discontinued the games, which had been used as fund-raisers, Riggle said. Since then, the matches have been organized by the students.

"Quite honestly, we were shocked as everyone else was when we looked at this videotape," Riggle said.

But, Soskin did not absolve the school of responsibility, saying that although it was not a school-sanctioned event or on school property, school administrators certainly knew the game was going to take place.

The Cook County sheriff's department and the county's Forest Preserve District police are investigating the incident, which happened on Forest Preserve property near Northbrook.

Glenbrook North High School is in Northbrook, a suburb north of Chicago. Riggle agreed with a reporter's depiction of the school's students as being mainly "upper middle class," adding that some 85 percent go on to four-year colleges.

CNN Correspondent Whitney Casey contributed to this report.

Martial Arts Topics / Violence against Women
« on: May 08, 2003, 10:41:54 AM »
>>I do think though, that sex is used so often in our society to sell
>>us things, and is so often equated with things which have nothing to
>>do with sex juts to get our attention, that it should come as no
>>suprise that some people have some extremely unhealthy attitudes
>>towards sex and women specifically.
>This sounds quite reasonable; but what about Arabic and other Islamic
>cultures completely devoid of these uses of sexual imagery, yet which
>have some strange ideas e.g. in a climate of 120 degrees covering
>women up in potato sacks from head to toe? Or that village in
>Pakistan that decreed a gang bang of a sister of a man convicted of
>walking unescorted with a girl of another family?!? (So help me-- tis
>It would seem that we need look elsewhere for an explanation...

No disagreement from me here...  Whether you (not you personally, of
course) claim that a woman "asked for it" because she wore some
skimpy outfit or you make it illegal for women to wear skimpy outfits
at all, the message is the same: rapes happen because women aren't
careful enough about making sure not to provoke them.  

Besides, I'm not convinced that the Islamic fundamentalist "solution"
actually even results in lower incidents of rape.  I imagine that a
society completely devoid of sexual imagery is just as likely as one
which is immersed in it to result in f'd up attidues about sex and

What really disturbs me the most is that so many young men say they
would have no moral problem with committing rape if they knew they
could get away with it.  This reminds of something I once read about
Germans who personally took part in Nazi atrocities.  Some of them
were total psychos to begin with for sure, but when normal
constraints on such behaviors were removed (indeed these acts were
encouraged and rewarded), we saw people who would otherwise never
think of raping, torturing, or murdering anybody do so with gusto.
Then after the war was over, the ones who didn't get killed or caught
just quiety returned to the lives they had before the war.


Martial Arts Topics / Violence against Women
« on: May 07, 2003, 04:48:23 PM »
>This discussion isn?t new, but it?s always interesting. To address
>the original premise, violence is inherently human regardless of
>gender so I think we can all understand and accept it to a degree,
>such as in the case of a schoolyard fight. I do not, however, think
>it is purposefully encouraged to ?keep women in their place.?

I don't think it's explicitly encouraged, but I do think there are
widespread attitudes among men that:

1) A woman doesn't wear a skimpy or provocative outfit unless it's
because she wants sexual attention from men.

2) There are circumstances under which a woman is obligated to "put
out" for a man.

3) Women sometimes say no to sex when they really mean yes.

Furthermore (and I wish I had a good reference here), some studies
have shown that somewhere between 30-50% of college-age men surveyed
stated that were they guaranteed to face no legal consequences, they
would have no problem raping someone to whom they were sexually
attracted.  Some other studies have shown that men who watch films in
which violence is portrayed as cool or sexy, or in which women are
shown as being turned on by violent men, are more likely to hold one
or more of the attitudes listed above.

Now don't get me wrong here.  I'm not some ultra-PC mamby-pamby type,
and I'm not suggesting that "every man is a potential rapist" or any
such nonsense.  I like (some) violent movies as much as the next guy.
I do think though, that sex is used so often in our society to sell
us things, and is so often equated with things which have nothing to
do with sex juts to get our attention, that it should come as no
suprise that some people have some extremely unhealthy attitudes
towards sex and women specifically.

>I am also a strong advocate of personal accountability and am
>dismayed and thoroughly disgusted by the ?victim culture? that seems
>to pervade the US legal system (anyone recall the lawsuit filed by a
>fat person against McDonald?s for making him fat?).

Do you have any details of the case to which you refer above?  Or are
you simply dismissing it out of hand as "victim culture?"  I myself
thought it was a bunch of crap when McD's was getting sued by some
old woman who spilled coffee in her lap when coming out of the
drive-thru, but after examining the case more closely, the suit
didn't seem as unreasonable as I'd thought.

>Martial arts can be a tool; no more, no less. Its purpose and
>validation as a tool of empowerment depends entirely on the user.

Couldn't agree more.


Martial Arts Topics / Violence against Women
« on: May 06, 2003, 03:37:34 PM »
>You use the phrase "only 8 to 11 years," as if this was an
>insignificant sentence.

8-11 years is by no means insignificant, but his victim is going to
have to live with what he did for much longer.  I don't know about
Canadian sentencing guidelines, but in the US we give perpetrators of
relatively harmless crimes (like drug dealers) stiffer sentences than
that.  John Walker Lindh was given 20 years just for being in the
wrong place at the wrong time.

>BTW, what idealism is it that you think we should lose? This was

I think she was referring to the idealism which holds that violence
against women can be and is being adequately addressed by the
criminal justice system, and is not a systemic or social problem.  

I don't think you have to be a feminist to argue that a criminal
justice system administered predominantly by males isn't going to
take crimes who's victims are predominanly females as seriously, or
treat them with the same sensitivity they would treat victims of
crimes they can see themselves as ever being the vitcim of.

If man accuses another man of raping him, there's going to be little
question of whether or not it was actually a rape, at least if we're
talking about a heterosexual man.  OTOH, unless she's a nun, a woman
who accuses a man of raping her is going to be subjected to a barrage
of humiliating questions.  She can expect to be asked whether she's
ever been into "rough sex," what she was wearing at the time, why she
was walking alone at night, and other questions intended to suggest
that y'know, maybe she wanted it.

>I do think that it is perfectly reasonable though, for the police to
>not automatically believe eveyone who accuses someone else of a
>crime. I think that it is the duty of law enforcement to carefully
>gather evidence after being informed about a possible crime, and try
>not to rush to judgement against anyone, until significant evidence
>is found. Not automatically taking an accuser's word as the truth is
>important, as the case of the husband who had his "crazy" wife locked
>up shows.

Couldn't agree more.  Of course everybody should be considered
innocent until proven guilty.  I think women are just sick of being
told that they're the ones responsible for making sure they don't do
or wear whatever could provoke a rapist.  As though men can't
reasonably be expected to resist the temptation to force a woman to
have sex with them if she walks alone at night or wears a tight skirt.

>BTW, numerous women in the U.S. who want to end their marriage and
>get custody make accusations that their husband have been molesting
>their children. This prevents the father from seeing their kids, can
>lead to a nasty encounter with the legal system for the dad, and can
>hurt him in many other ways.

I agree that's pretty freakin' bad, since you can probably get a
restaining order just on the basis of the accusation, but come on.
How often does this type of thing really happen?  I imagine such a
charge is pretty tough to prove.  A disgruntled Mom might be able to
cajole her kid into saying "Daddy touched me in a bad place," but
it's quite another thing (and pretty sick) to coach a kid well enough
to convince a professional child counselor that he's actually been

>Women are not the only people who have to contend with problematic
>treatment by the judicial system. And, as you know, some rape
>accusations are false.

True.  I think there should be severe penalties for accusing somebody
of a crime whom you *know* didn't do it.  I also think it's wrong for
a 19 year old man to have his name on a "sexual predator" list for
the rest of his life just because he dated a 16 year old girl whose
parents didn't like him.


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