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Messages - Bandolero

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Martial Arts Topics / Re: The Head Butt
« on: May 18, 2007, 06:32:06 PM »

Espanol Discussion / Re: Condiciones de Alerta
« on: May 16, 2007, 04:49:35 AM »
Otra visión de los códigos, con nivel negro.....


Totalmente relajado; soñando despierto; preocupado; ignorando el peligro

Alerta relajada; toma de conciencia relajada; evaluación de los alrededores
* este es el nivel mínimo de alerta mental en el que debe estar un oficial en todo momento, y sobre todo cuando está de servicio

Alerta no especificada; razón para creer que usted está/estará en problemas; se debe iniciar la reacción de alarma del cuerpo; alto nivel de toma de conciencia; evaluación de las amenazas potenciales; listo para actuar; usted está consciente de la existencia/ubicación de las líneas de fuego; zonas de muerte y cubiertas

Enfrentamiento armado; usted actúa para protegerse a sí mismo y/o a otros; busca cubierta; usted sabe cuál es la amenaza; su oponente tiene la oportunidad y la capacidad para herirlo; su arma está lista

Usted se encuentra en pleno combate; le están disparando; usted responde con ejercicios de batalla

Usted puede elegir dos caminos:
- Comprometerse totalmente; realizar una acción agresiva y firme; disparar el arma hasta que las amenazas sean eliminadas
- Pánico; colapso mental; paralización táctica; abrumado por la amenaza

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Crimes using knives
« on: May 16, 2007, 04:46:37 AM »
Closing Arguments in Airman Killing

May 15, 2007 - 10:29pm

Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - A military prosecutor asking jurors to convict an Air Force enlistee portrayed him Tuesday as a methodical killer who hunted down a fellow airman in a workout room, slammed a weight into her face, dragged her body to another room and used a knife to finish the job.

But in closing arguments at Bolling Air Force Base in Washington, Airman Calvin Eugene Hill's defense lawyer said prosecutors ignored inconvenient facts, including authorities' sloppy handling of evidence and the crime scene.

Hill, 21, of Warren, Ohio, is charged with murdering Airman First Class Ashley Turner. He could face the death penalty if convicted. The jury is scheduled to start deliberations Wednesday.

Turner, 20, of Frederick, Md., was found beaten and stabbed at the Naval Air Station in Keflavik, Iceland, on Aug. 14, 2005.

The prosecutor, Maj. Robert E. Luttrell, said Hill killed Turner because she was set to testify against him eight days later at a court-martial on larceny charges. Hill was accused of stealing about $2,700 from Turner by making ATM withdrawals using her card and personal identification number.
"He had motive, a clear undeniable motive, and he had an opportunity to kill," Luttrell said.

Hill's defense lawyers have suggested the killing could have been carried out by others, including Turner's boyfriend. He also was facing a court-martial that month on drug charges, and Turner knew of his drug use, they said.

On Tuesday, the defense noted that Turner's key card was used after the time prosecutors said she was attacked, but that prosecutors never explained why.

"The government has told you that Airman Hill had all kinds of reasons to go to her room," Capt. Jason Kellhofer said. "I was waiting because I was sure we'd get to hear one of those reasons. We didn't."

If the key card was used by Turner herself, that would mean the attack took place later, at a time witnesses say Hill was elsewhere.

The key card was found in the workout room, and prosecutors contend that Hill could have returned it later in the evening. The defense has questioned why he would have bothered to risk returning it.

A key piece of the prosecution's case is a tiny spot of Turner's blood found on Hill's shoelace. Kellhofer argued it could be from a trail of blood left when medical personnel carried Turner to an ambulance.

Hill's court-martial is being held at Bolling Air Force Base because the Keflavik base closed in September. Testimony lasted nearly three weeks.

Espanol Discussion / Re: Condiciones de Alerta
« on: May 15, 2007, 02:11:33 PM »
El artículo fue bien traducido por "Pablo Thunderglock."

Espanol Discussion / Re: Dog Bros DVD con espanol
« on: May 15, 2007, 02:09:35 PM »
¿Has lo hecho?

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Yoga
« on: May 15, 2007, 09:20:50 AM »
Those of you interested in the "Yang" side of Yoga should check out Scott Sonnon's work on

He has his own version of Yoga that he calls "Prasara Yoga" that is a mix of traditional Yoga and his own "bodyflow" exercises.  I'm not very familiar with Yoga, but it looks very challenging to me!

He also has a program that he calls  "Forward Pressure, The Yang of Yoga" which uses the transitions between Yoga postures to build strength as opposed to the "Yin" side of Yoga that most people are familiar with that emphasizes relaxation and flexibility.

Sonnon's Body Flow and Prasara Yoga is like yoga on steroids.  I'll bet many Yoga regulars could not do half of that stuff.

Here I am training with GT Gaje at his home in Bacolod. The manong in the picture is the late Kalimba (sp?).  Picture 17 and forward.

That's a young looking Tujon there!

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Yoga
« on: May 15, 2007, 03:55:39 AM »
I seem to recall Sonny Puzikas, a few weeks back, making favorable comments about Tai Chi and Yoga.  Not the incense burning and chanting kind, but the systems/movements which are quite physical.  Like I said, I have seen some of the Power Yoga workouts my lady does, and there ain't nothing easy about them.  If such workouts can challenge somebody who can do 200 burpees in under 20 minutes, then such workouts are physically challenging.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Yoga
« on: May 14, 2007, 06:51:34 PM »
I do way more than Yoga on any given day.  Any stretching/yoga/range of motion training I do is merely a supplement to the main workout.  It works for me so I will stick with it.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Yoga
« on: May 14, 2007, 11:28:08 AM »
Amen brother about flexibility and at the age of 39 have been stretching for a long time on my own but now really looking into styles of yoga . The gym where i train at offers it but some are not good teachers  and have bad credentials but  know a few that are good and been learing from them.
No wannabes here if your on here then you doing good and I have not fought in a gathering myself but thinking about it a lot. I been doing martial arts for a while and did the Dog Brothers semm in Penn this past march and also did privates with Crafty wow that was great stuff and at 54  Crafty is the man. But some of the alignment stuff we went over was great and helped me out a great deal. Have a good one Cold War and keep streaching if you find the time check out duncan wong yogi arts[u][/u]

Can you tell us a little about Duncan Wong yoga and how it is different (if it is at all) from other yoga systems?  My lady is always interested in something different/something new when it comes to yoga.

The "big thing" now I hear is hot box yoga.  I guess the box must be pretty hot after doing yoga for an hour in 100 degree heat.  :-D

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Yoga
« on: May 14, 2007, 10:19:09 AM »
Many thanks Cold War Scout now I know what a burpee is. Squat trust with a plyo jump looks like alot of fun. Now I was wondering litle bit about you I have seen you post a bit on here and was wondering about your backround a bit. Are you from Cali ? Fight alot of gatherings and your take on yoga and the healing benefits to heal after such a event.Mongo

Remember a burpee involves a pushup as well.  Without a pushup, as my friend Ross Enamait says, it's just a burp.

I live in the DC area.

Have never fought in a Gethering.  I am just a big wannabe.  I have thought about it but the truth is that at age 52 I want to keep enjoying the ability to collect the pension that I spent 25-years of other sh!t earning.

When it comes to yoga I can only speak to the benefits I see it has on my aging body.  You young guys who aren't doing flexibility and range of motion training now will be sorry as hell later.  Thta is one promise I can make unabashedly to you.  :-D

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Yoga
« on: May 13, 2007, 07:49:36 PM »
Hey Cold War Scout
Can you give me a example of burpees? Is that like Hindu push up? From yoga's downward dog to a cobra stretch? Is that it?
Also Crafty yes that small taste of staff stretching and alignment has helped me greatly and this tread Will stay alive and will gain some traction on here. 8-)
I was also wondering about Gm Gyi I know some one that trains with my teacher from Ohio U where DR Gyi teaches at or at least did at one time well he had this woman come from GM GYI camp to do a letha yoga semm but I had to work that day and could not do it.But they did allot of staff and rope stretching. I was bummed out that I could not go but the guy is a bit of a prick not Gm Gyi but this guy who trains with my teacher . He never had her back and I think that is a big mistake.
Now I was wondering Crafty if you and Guro Inosanto and Gm Gyi believe in the healing aspects of yoga through breath control and do you practice any of this ?
In my first post on this tread I stated the founding of a guy named Duncan Wong and his breathing of Mudras and Bandhas sorry but I was Reading g the back of the dvd box. I know one is breathing and the other poses but  with your experience of stick fighting  did you find yourself healing up faster though some from of yoga and breathing?
also with your knee surgery did you find any of this helpfull?

I was hoping at some point that the leaders of the arts such as your self and Guro Inosanto ever thought about making a dvd of conditioning exercises that you have found helpfull to the public? ps if you did not get that email that i sent to you great work on Grandmasters Speaks vol 2 and snaggletooth I cannot tell you the way Tiffany and I  dig that a lot both of them. Ever think about Vol 3 and one on GM Gyi? I know hes Bando but also from what I have read a legand in his own right.
As allways woof Mongo Gary

I don't have my video handy but here is a link to a couple of web sites that demonstrate it.

The emphasis should be on an exploding jump.  Not a mere jump, but a driving upwards exploding jump.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Cops need naps
« on: May 13, 2007, 12:26:28 PM »

If a lunch hour is in your shift hours, even half an hour, get permission to
sleep your lunch break, and eat energy bars and fruit as you drive to
replace a formal lunch.

This was an option I often took when it was available.  A 30-minute nap instead of a 30-minute coffee break will do wonders for you.

I notice in a lot of photos I have seen from Iraq of soldiers in defensive type activities, that you will frequently see many of them napping while others are alert.  I see the same at every track meet I go to.  Kids napping in between events.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Yoga
« on: May 13, 2007, 12:19:07 PM »
At my age I have come to discover that when I stretch (be it traditional Yoga poses or no), before and after a workout, I feel much better the rest of that day and into the next day.  If I do it consistently for days at a time I find that my tendency towards arthritic pains noticeably (primarily knees) diminishes.

Separately and apart from Yoga, is what I guess is best called joint range of motion training.  That, coupled with stretching/Yoga, when I do it consistently is when I am at my most pain free.

My lady does some of the Power Yoga DVDs from Brian Kest, Baron Baptiste, and YogaHands (yoga with Heavy Hands).  Man those do not look like easy workouts.  I know I would have great difficulty doing them.  She rocks, but then again how many people can do 200 burpees in under 20 minutes?

No matter how much training you may have had over the years, a weekend with Tujon Gaje is just plain fun and worth the price of admission alone.  Then on top of it you get some good training.  You can't go wrong.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: May 13, 2007, 12:05:27 PM »
I find it interesting how many who eschew flow drills, themselves developed their skill sets starting out doing flow drills (be it sticks or knives).  In my not very experienced opinion flow drills help you develop attributes that allow you to, as somebody already said, step out of the box and expand.  The "danger" with flow drills, IMHO, is when they become one's training and there is no stepping out of the box and experimenting with non-compliant adversaries.

As far as control locks go, I have personally never seen them work on an adversary unless 1) the adversary was dummying up (be it in training or a bandit who didn't feel like going the full fight route), 2) the adversary had already been diminished by painful strikes, 3) the officer/agent was physically strong enough to force the control lock on a weaker adversary (e.g. burly cop on skinny, "malnourished" vegan).

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Parkour
« on: May 13, 2007, 11:56:46 AM »
I understand the Warriors Forge in Manassas, Va. will be having Parkour seminars in the not too distant future.

Martial Arts Topics / Crimes of interest: 2 Wanted in Umbrella Slaying
« on: April 29, 2007, 06:16:27 AM »
Herewith begins a thread dedicated to crimes of interest:

Italian Police Search for 2 Wanted in Brutal Umbrella Slaying of Woman in Subway

Sunday , April 29, 2007

Italian TV stations on Sunday repeatedly showed videos of two women sought in the slaying of a young woman who was fatally stabbed in the eye with an umbrella on the subway platform of Rome's main train station.

News programs played video from surveillance cameras from Rome's Termini rail station, and newspapers ran front-page photos of the two suspects, dressed in white pants and white jackets, walking up a station staircase after the attack.

The ferocity of the attack shocked the nation, where violent crime on mass transport is rare.

Vanessa Russo, 22, died of wounds suffered when she was stabbed in the eye with the umbrella's tip while on her way to work on Thursday. Witnesses and surveillance cameras indicated that two women were involved in the attack.

News reports said that police were investigating whether the victim had argued with the two women shortly before being stabbed, or had made clear that she suspected them of trying to pick her pocket.

A top Rome police official, Alberto Intini, said that fingerprints found on the umbrella were fragmentary but that investigators hoped to get enough DNA traces off the umbrella to confirm that any suspect identified was one of the killers.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Cops need naps
« on: April 27, 2007, 02:57:26 PM »
I am familiar with a guy who got caught sleeping on a protection the protectee, who then reported this.  The agent's defense was that he was extremely tired from working 16 hour days for several weeks straight (literally).  Of course he never complained about being tired at all prior to this moment, nor did he have any problem making 48 hours of overtime every 2 weeks (we used to get as much as 100 in 2-weeks back in the old days beforee LEAP law was passed).  This caused a new policy to be initiated where people on protection details could only work 8-hour shifts.  This resulted in a 150% increase in personnel because now 3 shifts were needed instead of the basic 2x12 hour shifts.  The manpower strain on the agency was enormous and it became difficult to man protection detail missions.  It cost just as much money when the extra meals, lodging and airfare were entered into the equation, as it did when paying overtime was a reality.

Ultimately we went back to the old way in order to make personnel ends meet.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Condtioning for the stick
« on: April 27, 2007, 02:43:08 PM »
The benefit I see to Torquebaldes over Clubbells for combatives training is that having an edged "blade" requires your slashes to be more precise in order to achieve the angle necessary to get the most effective cut.  You have that visual reference that is lacking with sticks, pipes, etc.

That being said, I have handled the Torqueblades and do not think they are anywhere as physically demanding as Clubbells are.  So if you are doing this type of conditioning to enhance your overall striking power and conditioning, I would go with Clubbells.  Tom's comment below about Clubbells is one I agree wholeheartedly with:

You can use dumbbells and wiffle ball bats full of cement, but once you use the real thing, is hard to switch.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: What would you have done?
« on: April 27, 2007, 02:24:16 PM »
Speaking of the devil:

Police officer faces new charges in bartender beating

CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- Prosecutors announced 14 additional felony charges Friday against a Chicago police officer whose videotaped beating of a female bartender made international headlines.

Anthony Abbate, a 12-year department veteran, was charged with seven counts of official misconduct, one count of communicating with a witness, three counts of intimidation and three counts of conspiracy, Cook County State's Attorney's office spokeswoman Tandra Simonton said.

Abbate, 38, still faces an earlier felony charge of aggravated battery. He is to be arraigned on the new charges May 16.

The charges stem from a February 19 beating at the Short Stop Inn, a tavern on the city's northwest side, after the 115-pound bartender refused to serve a 250-pound man any more drinks.

The man, who police said was Abbate off duty, is seen in a tavern surveillance video punching and beating the woman and throwing her to the ground. Media outlets around the world have aired or posted the footage.

Abbate appeared in court briefly Friday for a previously scheduled status hearing, when prosecutors told the judge they had filed a superseding indictment to the original assault charge.

Abbate's attorney, Peter Hickey, said he was angry because he had found out from the media that there were new charges, and told reporters after the hearing that he didn't know what the charges were.

Abbate has been placed on leave and police have said they intend to fire him over the alleged beating, which has embarrassed the city and police department.

Police faced intense criticism because Abbate had been charged with a misdemeanor until the videotape became public.

Chicago Police Superintendent Phil Cline, who also had to fend charges that his department was out of control amid reports that another videotape showed six officers beat up four businessmen, announced earlier this month that he was retiring.

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: 300
« on: April 15, 2007, 02:57:22 PM »
At last the wife and I arranged a date last night and planned to see "300".  Long story short, after much misadventure 300 became impossible and in search of brownie points I deferred to her request for "Perfect Stranger" which I found perfectly boring.  Ugh.

You don't think she would have been in for Planet Terror, huh?

Martial Arts Topics / Re: 300
« on: April 13, 2007, 02:07:43 PM »
For those who are unfamiliar with Ross Enamait, you need to be:

Martial Arts Topics / Re: 300
« on: April 13, 2007, 02:06:22 PM »
Here is a link to a superior combatives and conditioning facility on the East Coast.

The Warriors Forge:

For those who don't know, this seminar will be held at The Warrior's Forge, an elite combatives and high intensity conditioning facility in Manassas, Va.  An added bonus to attending this seminar is the opportunity to reevaluate with Dino (the head trainer) your physical conditioning regimen.  The Warriors Forge is becoming well known on the East Coast for the superior manner in which it integrates conditioning with a combatives emphasis.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Calling all female fighters
« on: March 03, 2007, 06:03:59 PM »
I was at DLO2, and all the women were tough as nails.  If Linda is who I think she is, she is the one I told "man, I would never want to have to fight you."  I meant it.

   i just wanted to say you a cool dude. it's really nice the way you're giving us props for just being there to help out mr. saurez and guro marc. i had alot of fun during the weekend myself.

People who know me well know I would not say this if I did not mean it.  You guys were sensational and made the training what it was, and at the level it was.

« on: January 29, 2007, 07:43:06 AM »
Scott Sonnon personally sent a replacement 15 pound Clubbell.  He did not have to in my humble opinion but he did.  Like I said before, his focus on 100% customer satisfaction is unlike anybody I have ever personally done business with.

Day 2 ended. I thought today was as good, if not a better, training day than yesterday. The energy of the students was exceptional. I was very honored to have met and trained with all of them. Once again the two ladies represented themselves very, very well.

The day started off with some more Dog Catcher drills only this time at much closer ranges. The Dog Brothers crew (major kudos that assisted in the seminar provided very intense pressure in their roles as attackers). Despite their size and strength the students that effected a solid Dog Catcher all bought themselves a little more time to work out a solution to the problem. Being able to effect the Dog Catcher mattered significantly. It is a solid defensive tool that works well in close ranges against highly probable initial attack sequences.

The latter part of the day was spent in handgun force on force exercises. I think it was demonstrated once again that "move and ye shall live."

Kind of an additional thought:

Everybody who trained this weekend had to test themselves on a number of occasions against living, breathing non-compliant opponents. While this is a staple in Dog Brothers training it is not for all of us outthere.  Until you do this in your training are you really sure your skill sets work or will hold up? For me this was the worth the price of admission in and of itself. I now get to leave L.A. with no false illusions about who I am and what I can do (and more importantly can't do).  Major kudos to the Dog Brothers for everything they did this weekend for all of us.  Specifically candidate Frankfurter, candidate Kalani and our affectionately named "Cyborg Warrior."

The class has a great group of people. Two of the students are women who are tough as nails.

A lot of time yesterday was spent working on weapons access under maximum all out pressure by a knife attacker. Gabe and Crafty then decreased the distances until getting your gun out was not always the easiest option to pull off. This often required bringing the Dog Catcher into play to intercept the problem, buy some time and position, and then access your firearm if/as appropriate.

The Dog Catcher was very effective in intercepting the knife attack in progress. After that the fight was on. Whether you got the head butt in or not was also a dynamics changer that frequently made the difference between how successful your defense was.  Sometimes you won and sometimes you lost.  Several MMA guys are in the class so they represented themselves very well at the close ranges. Size, strength, and conditioning mattered. One of them planted a great front kick into the attacker that essentially stopped all forward progress, and then he smoothly drew his firearm. As the two women proved, size and gender were not as important as combative mindset and ferocity. Gabe and Crafty ran each drill such that it did not end just because gunfire or some thrusts were achieved. Getting training time like this under essentially maximum attack pressure is few and far between for pistoleros.

Day two begins shortly. Ciao fo' now.

P.S.  Yesterday was a long day. 1000-1830 hours.

I'm not sure I really mentioned how well Crafty used his check hand as part of his tactics.

From the Warrior Talk forum....

Originally Posted by Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
2) Stick vs. Knife. CWS pressed me with true pressure on this and sometimes he killed me and sometimes we think I probably would have dropped him or deterred him on the way in. I think we agreed that stick vs knife is a question of four variables:
-- the knife
-- the stick
-- the men involved, their level of motiviation and their respective skills with their respective tools
-- the environment

Crafty Dog

I had completely forgotten about this little experiment, yet it was probably the most illuminating information I came away from WTS3 with.

Prior to this day in question, I had always been of the mindset that in stick/impact weapon versus knife, the person with the knife held a lopsided advantage. Personally I think I would still rather have a knife in most situations, however, my opinion of the whole affair dramatically changed after sparring it out with Crafty Dog. The reality I experienced was that the stick had the range advantage. Certainly against the 4 1/2" fixed blade trainer I was using. I am not sure of the length of the Flex Stick Crafty was using (by the way those Flex Sticks are awesome impact weapons training equipment and nobody training the impact weapons art should be without them, just as nobody training blades should be without a NOK full contact trainer). However during the bubble distance, sparring and closing action it was clear to me that Crafty was getting some significant whacks in on my knife wielding hand, and the elbow as well. I instinctively felt that strikes like these with an impact weapon of substance certainly had a good prospect for inducing major pain, and in the case of the hand probably risking the breaking of some metacarpal bones. I am not sure how well, in the real world, a knife attacker could sustain those kinds of hits. I believe, of course depending upon the size of the impact weapon, that shots to the forearm would be very "iffy" fight stoppers, although I certainly would not want to find out the hard way.

While working this out with Crafty, once I realized that he could get in these significant shots, I tried to work the problem from the perspective of being forced to respect the weapon. Thus I did not try to close willy nilly because it would not have been realistic since there was no penalty to pay as there would be in real life. What I sensed and discovered working this exercise was that because I had to maintain a respectable impact weapon bubble range, which I felt was a greater range than would be the case in knife versus knife, I was not able to close the distance most of the time without getting whacked in the hand and/or elbow multiple times. Because Crafty can move extremely well, and because he can strike from various positions, closing in on him was already very challenging. Add to that the fear of getting whacked and it made it very difficult to safely and realistically go at him with the knife most of the time. I got lucky a few times but not as many I was would have expected.

The weapons are a factor. If Crafty had a shorter impact weapon, then I would have been more comfortable closing the bubble distance, and perhaps that would have given me the range at which I could have closed hard and efficiently in one powerful step. If I had a longer blade, perhaps I could have touched him more than I did when I did try to strike him from that extended distance. I think the actual impact weapon itself would have been a very important factor. I have seen guys train with 26" rattan sticks that just do not look to me to be fight enders. I don't want to get cracked upside the head with one, don't get me wrong, but they just do not instill fear in me. Without that fear I believe I would be more likely to go for that all out closing lunge to run somebody through with a blade. Maybe I would get whacked but I would still give it a shot, and maybe I would get through, whereas if I feared getting hit by the impact weapon I might not even try. I tried to run this exercise as if I were up against an ASP (26" minimum) or a 30" Dog Brothers type rattan stick. I already know I do not want to get hit with either of those, so the fear level (that I think is all important in the real world) is already there. I am not so sure, with a blade in my hand (especially one in which the blade is 7" long) that I would have that same level of fear against a 21" ASP. I am not saying it could not mess me up. I am saying that the fear level is way reduced due to the smaller bubble colliding distance.

No matter which opponent you are, you MUST be able to move well. In my case I just could not easily get a "hold" of Crafty without sustaining significant whacks, and that was a major factor in his favor that kept me well at bay. Crafty's Kali false lead footwork was very effective in my opinion.

I highly recommend everybody spar this stick versus knife scenario out. I think it is an important piece to the combatives puzzle that everybody needs to have some familiarity with. And do so switching weapons because it may be you that winds up with an impact weapon in your hand against a knife. And vice versa. Practice redondos and around the head circling shots.

Your mileage may vary.....

« on: January 07, 2007, 09:19:31 AM »
I do not want to appear to be reviving a dead thread but I think it fair to mention that the other day I received replacement zerts for all the Clubbells that have any sort of compromise.  Scott Sonnon personally handled this matter, and did so with the most serious 100% customer satisfaction view I have ever seen anybody genuinely implement.  I only wish I had been fortunate enough to have been in contact with him from jump street.  I truly believe if I had insisted on my money back, he would have done so.  But my ire was never about money.  As I have always said, I am a fan of the Clubbell and of circular strength training.  My ire was about the product itself.

So I am back in full Clubbells action again.  Whether anybody ever buys a Clubbell or not, I think it is fair to say and to know that if you ever have a problem Scott Sonnon himself will make it right with whatever it takes.

NOTE:  All the new zerts are significantly longer in length.  Hopefully that will alleviate the stresses on zert issue.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: MMA
« on: December 30, 2006, 07:33:20 AM »
UFC Celebrates a Landmark Year
Mixed Martial Arts Attracts Growing Audience and Sparks Rival Organizations

By Andrew Levine
Special to The Washington Post
Saturday, December 30, 2006; E02

In 2006, the Ultimate Fighting Championship entered the realm of mainstream sports. Gate revenue for its nine events brought in between $1.9 million and $3.3 million per card, its reality television show, "The Ultimate Fighter," is Spike TV's highest-rated program, and a UFC event on Spike in October drew higher ratings among males 18 to 34 than Game 1 of baseball's American League Championship Series.

"We've caught lightning in a bottle with this thing," UFC President Dana White said.

Not surprisingly, others have joined in on the country's mixed martial arts, or MMA, boom that UFC has spurred. Japan's Pride Fighting Championships recently hosted its first event in the United States, the newly formed Elite Xtreme Combatwill host its first card on Showtime in February and various other organizations have locked up their own television and pay-per-view contracts.

"As the years go on, I see MMA overtaking boxing," said Gary Shaw, a longtime boxing promoter and president of EliteXC. "The demographic from [ages] 18-36 is huge and boxing does not appeal to those demos. [Boxing] is having trouble putting fans in the seats, but MMA can really turn fans out. It's a phenomenon."

But MMA's newfound popularity could create new problems. Mixed martial arts currently operates in a system where the company that promotes and hosts the cards also has the fighters participating under contract. And although big-money super-fights occur rarely because of disagreements between promoters, boxing still has the freedom to put the two best fighters from the same weight class together for the sort of bout that satiates fans and benefits the promoters and the boxers.

"If these new promoters come in and do not have success, that's a bad thing," said Josh Gross, editor of, the country's largest Web site devoted to mixed martial arts. "Eventually they're all going to have to come together. Otherwise, there's going to be too much money left on the table.

"The best fighters have to fight each other. In the end that's what it's about. If the best fighters don't fight each other, you really will have meaningless fights and boring, repetitive matchups. It'll take away from the credibility of the sport."

The UFC has put together this kind of fight to end its landmark year. Tonight's UFC 66 card at Las Vegas's MGM Grand Garden Arena matches two of the sport's biggest names -- light heavyweight champion Chuck Liddell and Tito Ortiz.

Of the UFC's competitors, only Pride has a comparable talent pool, and although wildly popular overseas, it has put on just one show in the United States and its financial stability has come into question after its TV contract in Japan fell apart earlier this year. EliteXC was publicly launched just over two weeks ago, on Dec. 14.

Shaw, who promoted the boxing match between Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis in 2002, said EliteXC will have an open-door policy with respect to bringing in outside fighters while each of the company's own fighters has a clause in his contract to compete under other organizations.

Ultimately though, the UFC will have the final say, given its stature as the country's preeminent MMA organization. To that end, the UFC appears headed in a direction that would attempt to bring almost all the top talent under its roof.

The UFC recently purchased the contracts of the now defunct World Fighting Alliance (giving the UFC the rights to Quinton Jackson, the last man to defeat Liddell), which sought to compete with the UFC but only put on one show, and bought the established World Extreme Cagefighting, which will operate as a separate entity from the UFC.

UFC also has its ever-expanding programming deal with Spike, which runs midway through 2008. Spike can no longer buy advertising time on ESPN for its UFC programming because ESPN "views us as competition," said Brian Diamond, Spike's senior vice president of sports and specials.

"Nobody knows this business better than we do," White said. "When we bought this thing [in 2001] it was the most unattractive thing. So unattractive that people didn't view it as a sport. Now you have all these [companies] that are jumping in, but we're the guys who know."

For the burgeoning organizations, long-term success may hinge heavily on creativity. The International Fight League, which launched earlier this year and airs on Fox Sports Net, opted for a team format instead of the traditional boxing model with the hopes of zeroing in on a different part of the MMA market.

"If [new companies] are not different enough and they don't offer something special they're going to be in for a rude awakening," said Kurt Otto, CEO of IFL.

It's a way of "competing, but not competing directly" with the UFC, Otto said.

White agrees.

"I don't look at a lot of these guys as competition," White said. "It's always going to happen. You've got all these other companies out there and when they're all gone in the next year and a half, there are going to be two more new ones."

« on: December 28, 2006, 07:40:13 AM »
Within the past 48 hours Scott Sonnon himself has gotten involved in this matter.  He seems to be a very sincere, practical, level-headed, determined to have 100% customer satisfaction kind of guy.  He also is very good at relationship-oriented skills because he completely depissed me off, and frankly I did not think that would ever be possible in this matter.  I am happy about this turn of events because his stuff is very good, including the Clubbells concept, and I sure would have hated having a chip on my shoulder for RMAX for the next decade.

I will provide a more full report once the resolution is in place.

« on: December 24, 2006, 06:10:23 AM »
  Have you discussed this with RMAX or Torque Athletics?   Have you brought this up in the RMAX forum?   In the past others have had similar issues and it was addressed promptly.   The president of Torque Athletics even personally replied to some posts.  They had a run of product with manufacturing defects at one point.  As far as I could tell, things were worked out to everyone's satisfaction.  Keith

As my final word on this subject, let me point out that what you read above was part of my very first post on this topic.  You chose not to answer the simple and reasonable question I asked.   For some reason you decided that I was some kind of RMAX groupie and that clubbells were my "sacred cow" and chose to see me as the enemy.  This is not true.  I don't even use clubbells currently.   My apologies if anything I have posted has seemed like a personal attack.  That was not what was intended. 


I am equally done with this thread (and would have been days ago), unless somebody asks a question or I have more related, updated info to report.  I have communicated the info I intended to communicate.

« on: December 23, 2006, 06:05:59 AM »
---So you HAVE contacted RMAX?   Why have you been implying that you didn't?  Why didn't you point that out earlier?

In a nutshell, you are the one who said I never contacted RMAX.  I have even sent them photos of their problem, although I was under no obligation to do so.  I had no need to clarify this point with you because it is irrelevant to the issue of the Clubbell apparently lacking sufficient structural integrity (probably at the heavier weights).

With all due respect sir, it does not matter to me if you ever respond to this thread again.  You are the one who annointed yourself to be the solo knight in shining armor to come to the rescue of RMAX and Torque Athletic.  You seem to miss the point that your approval is not being requested.  You are free to go about doing things in whatever manner you choose.  As am I.  We have different views of the world. 

Some folks will appreciate (well actually already have) knowing that the very expensive Clubbell they may be considering has a structural design issue before they go spending well over $100 on one.  To those to whom the Clubbell is an inviolable sacred cow, I knew in advance you would be upset that your sacred cow is being "dissed", and theoretically were the Clubbell to be shown live on national television to completely melt into a black puddle after exposure to 3 hours of sunlight you would still be justifying its perfection and be telling us we need to buy a darkened refrigerator to workout in.

I am not obligated to join the RMAX forum and do "research" on this matter.  That is a bizarre premise.  There is nothing more I need to know because I am not speculating about product deficiency.  All I need to know is actually sitting on my basement floor right now.  It's incredibly simple really.  An expensive product was manufactured and sold that does not have the structural snuff to completely handle the stresses of the work it was designed to perform. 

...instead you chose to simply post in multiple forums to tell everyone you could to never buy this product.

Yes.  Exactly.  As I look over my shoulder right now at the Clubbell sitting 10 feet away from me, IMHO you would either need to be wealthy or out of your mind to spend that kind of money on something that will have the grip bending at about a 45° angle after one year of use.

It is a good thing for the police world that you were not the one who first discovered that Zylon body armor does not stop bullets, because its clear to me you would have spent your efforts in confidential dialogue with Second Chance body armor, and the people out there wearing the vest would have never found out from you that the vest did not bullets.

Within the realm of being reasonable, the use of deadly physical force is not an inappropriate response to being attacked by the "shod foot."  Especially if there is more than one attacker.

Woof All:

I recently had someone tell me he was pleasantly surprised when his DLO arrived to discover that it was a triple disc.  We're incredibly honored that he was willing to shell out $80 for what he thought would be one disc, but folks, please note that this is a TRIPLE disc!

Crafty Dog

The guys on Warrior Talk know that material on the DLO videos is some potentially life-saving material that is worth its weight in gold.  As you know, I was recently doing some knife combatives training against an MMA guy, and on the fly we just suddenly went through a knife attack.  He came at me committed.   I responded with the Dog Catcther committed.  I pushed him back off balance with the arm "pincer" and my bodyweight.  I felt the moment was right so I suddenly swung the arm back across the front of his body and moved into an arm-bar across my body while compromising his balance.

Now you know me Crafty.  I am the white boy who can't dance.  I am the white boy the brothers are talking about.  But this all worked!  Funny was the comments we both made afterwards.  I said something like "of course I can't really do it all that well like Crafty Dog could", to which he responded "it looked pretty fuckin' good to me."

« on: December 22, 2006, 08:34:09 AM »

Call me a cynic but I absolutely do not believe that if you had a Ford Pinto 2-3 decades ago that had a possibility of the gas tank exploding from a routine rear end collision, or if you had 4 Goodyear tires on a Ford Explorer during that issue some years back, that you would be all so okay about it.

As of this moment you are the only person on multiple forums who seems to think that the equipment manufacturer is some sort of victim.  Every other person seems to have appreciated the "heads up."  With comments such as:


Thanks for the heads up.

I'm very tired of makers of expensive gear with excuses for their failings.

For the price seems they could make a weighted club of strong construction.

Regarding the RMAX forum, please help me to get this straight.  You are saying there has been some sort of ongoing discussion about this basic problem on the RMAX forum, yet this is the response of the RMAX President/CEO to me:

In 4 years this is the first time we hear such statement.

So which is it?

It's all very simple to me AD.  The Clubbell is a very expensive product that does not have the structural solidity to handle the very exercises they promulgate (I speculate it is the highly ballistic ones).  For some reason you seem to be taking my ire with the product personally, something I used to frequently see shareholders get similarly defensive about. 

Hey, I’ll be the first to admit if I had loads of money, I would buy a new series of Clubbells every year to replace the ones that go bad from the stress.  The concept of the Clubbell, and the circular strength training philosophy, are that great.  The RMAX/Torque Athletic people seem like genuinely okay guys to me, especially Mr. Sonnon.  It’s simply the actual structural issue of the Clubbell itself that is the issue.  You cannot spin that out of play with anybody who has their eye remotely on the ball.

Perhaps you might have reacted differently.  So be it.  I am quite comfortable that my reaction is appropriate in light of how the cards played out.  I sincerely hope that Torque and RMAX fix this problem, and if me being out my Clubbells investment $ results in this product being improved, then so be it.  If my actions cause them to do exactly that, then it will have all been worthwhile to me.

« on: December 21, 2006, 06:18:24 PM »

Thank you.

When you are out here for the DLO: Gun, Knife, Empty Hand seminar with Gabe and me, remind me to show you the Torqueblades (see the Stickconditioning thread for comments)-- I'd be curious to get your take on them and how they overlap with the Indian Clubs.


Seems like a variation of the overall Indian clubs theme to me.  What kind of weight do these Torque Blades pack?

« on: December 21, 2006, 07:45:26 AM »
Woof CWS:

Outstanding to see you posting here!

Question:  I've been hearing about the Indian Clubs from you and others and I am intrigued-- and I wonder if this training would simply replicate things that I am already doing.  Is there an instructional DVD which you (or anyone else) would recommend?


Because I have touted Clubbells in the past to guys like you, Gabe, Tom Sotis and Ross Enamait, I had a personal obligation to inform of the current situation as regards them.  Combat conditioning is too important a topic to take lightly, and with the cost of Clubbells being what they are every guy thinking about such a piece of equipment, and such a regimen, deserves an honest assessment of them.  My assessment is eyes on and hands on.  Including the fact that the Clubbell apparently just does not handle the stresses imposed on them.  I have been, and still am a huge fan of the Clubbell concept, and of Scott Sonnon.  However, reality is reality, and if the Clubbell itself has its shortcomings then let the chips fall where they may.  If a gun constantly jams, that does not make the concept of a gun invalid.   Imagine if I had said nothing and my buddy Dino went ahead and bought the whole Pro-Gym package for $1100 for The Warriors Forge!!  I would stay the heck away from buying any Clubbells for the foreseeable future.

There is a book and a DVD put out by RMAX on Circular Strength Training.  I consider both to be THE sources of the best information I have seen yet, although as with everything from RMAX (and Dragon Door for that matter), they are quite expensive.  Many people complain about this but unless you can get one on the cheap from e-Bay it is hard to get an original non-bootleg copy any other way than through RMAX.


Book -

I suspect you are already, and always have essentially been doing, some measure of "circular strength" type training by virtue of your stick fighting training.  For example what Sonnon calls the frontwards and backwards circles is essentially the same thing as redondos (I suspect redondos have been around close to forever).  Overhead circles with a pipe closely resembles Sonnon's shield cast.  It seems to me that umbrella blocks closely resemble the initial movement of Sonnon's reverse parry cast.  Top Dog's chopping activates what seems to me like the same basic wrist and forearm muscles and structural components that Sonnon's wrist cast engages even though the movements are different in appearance.  However there is a regimen of exercises promulgated by Sonnon that you probably are not doing.  Some of these exercises can really smoke one's grip and arm strength in a manner hard to describe unless you actually do it.  I have never had a Clubbell go flying or dropped one, but I can see where if I had tried one more rep or two, that could have happened.

Indian clubs are nothing new and they sure seem like the genesis of the modern-day Clubbell to me.  "Circular strength" type training is nothing new.  The below link is to a book that appears to have been published in 1887...over 119 years ago.  This book contains what sure looks like circular strength type exercises to me.

As we have personally talked about in the past, there is very little new under the sun that human beings bodies have not already discovered/actually done.  We have watched cowboys do point shooting for generations now and there are those out there in the here and now who would have you believe that they invented it.

« on: December 21, 2006, 06:45:42 AM »

The Clubbell is designed such that the knob of the Clubbell screws into the neck of the Clubbell. As I understand it the screw itself is apparently called a zert. I took the 20 lb. Clubbell that had the severely canted knob, and I unscrewed it. It was then that I noticed that the zert itself was severely bent. The bend in the zert is what caused the knob to appear so severely canted. One does not have to be a rocket science to conceptualize that the ¼” zert is not capable of handling the tremendous physical forces that are brought to bear upon the knob/neck junction of the Clubbell.

Actualy this does not surprise.

I am a Historic European Martial artist and we noticed this very early on with alot of the lower end sword's that have screw on pommel's, your knob and zert, just swinging a two pound sword with any force/speed tended to bend the tang (zert) and they were alway's coming loose because of the twisting motion on the handle, much like you do with a clubbell, the higher end sword's that are being produced now from the old design's have what is called a peened on pommel were the pommel is wedge down onto a wedge shaped tang and then the piece sticking out is heated and pounded down to fasten the pommel to the tang.

I would be willing to bet they could also do something of this nature, gradualy tapering tang and peened over pommel.


I do wonder whether buying a simple 30" by 1" black metal pipe from Home Depot (the kind I built homemade parallettes with), filling it with sand or gravel, and quality sealing the ends with metal end caps would work as a viable substitute. The weights probably would not be the same as with some of the Clubbells that have been manufactured, but I would imagine the weights could be greater than those of the Indian Clubs that sells:

Below are some of the prices of Clubbells so you can get a real idea how much money you could find yourself out of:

15 lb. Clubbell - $109.95 + $21 shipping

20 lb. Clubbell - $119.95 + $24 shipping

35 lb. Clubbell - $149.95 + $40 shipping

While ArmyDoc may not consider that kind of money any big deal, I leave it up to you to come to your own conclusion.  I came close to getting a 15 and a 20 for my girlfriend's son for X-mas.  Thank God I got kettlebells instead!

« on: December 21, 2006, 05:30:08 AM »
With all due respect, you sound like someone "with an axe to grind", and I am suspect of an ulterior motive.  Have you discussed this with RMAX or Torque Athletics?   Have you brought this up in the RMAX forum?   In the past others have had similar issues and it was addressed promptly.   The president of Torque Athletics even personally replied to some posts.  They had a run of product with manufacturing defects at one point.  As far as I could tell, things were worked out to everyone's satisfaction.  Most pieces of equipment will have stress points that are more vulnerable to failure than other points.   The same is true of traditional Olympic weights, and people still use those regularly. 


There was a reason I said the following in my first paragraph: "I know this will offend some, because the Clubbell is their sacred cow..."

I have provided you folks with true information about my first-hand experience with Clubbells.  As with all things in life, each person is free to believe or disbelieve as they choose.  That will, of course, not alter reality

I have no obligation to become a member of the RMAX forum.  I am not an RMAX groupie, nor do I have any desire to be one.  That is like saying that if I bought a Glock that did not work, my recourse should be to join the Glock Talk forum and commiserate there with others whose Glocks did not work.  That is certainly not a course of action I am interested in following.  I have mentally written off the money I lost on Clubbells.  My primary goal at this point is to simply warn others of my real world negative experience so they know in advance the risks that may come with the purchase of Clubbells.  They are very expensive pieces of equipment.  [EDITED OUT]

It's a shame actually because otherwise they are great pieces of weight equipment.  But no matter how much you liked a particular car, if you knew it to be a lemon you would not buy it, right?  Well at least 999 out of 1000 people probably wouldn't.

I am curious.  Why is it that I am supposed to keep this product defect information some sort of confidential matter between me and RMAX/Torque Athletics?  With all due respect it sounds like you have an interest in promoting the use of Clubbells.  Perhaps in your world I am supposed to be groveling to RMAX/Torque Athletics for my money back, but in my world I don't roll like that.  It's a good thing we are not talking about a gun that jams because it sounds to me like you would sweep that under the rug to get your money back.

« on: December 20, 2006, 05:35:30 PM »

As many of you know, I have been working out with Clubbells (purchased from RMAX International and manufactured by Torque Athletic) for over a year now. While I have been a great fan of Clubbells as a conditioning tool, I made an observation today on four of my Clubbells that causes me great concern as to their very safety. I know this will offend some, because the Clubbell is their sacred cow, but the truth is simply the truth. I have no malicious intent in communicating this information. I am simply communicating a truth that I have come to discover (at significant personal financial expense I might add), a truth I wish to see others avoid altogether.

I will explain in more detail below the nature of the safety concern, but in summary it is clearly evident to me that Clubbells, as they are presently engineered and manufactured, pose a serious possibility of snapping off at the junction of the grip and the body of the Clubbell, and either dropping on the user‘s head or becoming a flying missile that if they ever hit a bystander would very possibly cause death or serious injury. To the user because of the amount of weight that could drop on said user’s head, or death or serious injury to a bystander because of the amount of weight that could be sent flying in a missile manner. Do not underestimate the possibility of this happening.

While working out today with Clubbells I noticed that the “knob” of one of the 20 lb. Clubbells (it is the ball grip end of the Clubbell that screws into the neck of the Clubbell) was severely canted to one side. The Clubbell is designed such that the knob of the Clubbell screws into the neck of the Clubbell. As I understand it the screw itself is apparently called a zert. I took the 20 lb. Clubbell that had the severely canted knob, and I unscrewed it. It was then that I noticed that the zert itself was severely bent. The bend in the zert is what caused the knob to appear so severely canted. One does not have to be a rocket science to conceptualize that the ¼” zert is not capable of handling the tremendous physical forces that are brought to bear upon the knob/neck junction of the Clubbell.
In fact, during the very design of the Clubbell (when they initially were looking at a one-piece unit), there was a problem with the physical stresses placed at this very junction. Below is an excerpt from an article written by Scott Sonnon and published by (bolding added):

“6. Cost

Okay, I admit it. I tried initially to keep cost down and create just cast-iron and even lathe club replicas of the old time bowling pin design. After several broke because of falling over on the knob, I consulted with an engineer who apprise me of the failings of single piece units. In single piece units, the structurally weakest point is where the handle meets the knob. After investing too much money in replacing these designs and trying to increase material density, we realized we needed to have the knob as a screw type attachment to the neck.”

As you can see, even during their own testing the designer and manufacturer had a serious problem with that very specific area of the Clubbell being able to handle the physical stress. And while the zert design may have appeared to have addressed the product safety issue (and let there be no doubt in your mind whatsoever that a 20 lb. Clubbell landing on your head or flying through the air is not a potentially very serious safety issue), the fact of the matter as evidenced by my Clubbells is that it did not satisfactorily address the issue. The physical stresses still obviously exist, and as you can see from the photos, still impact that very exact same spot on the Clubbell. As with the recent Zylon body armor matter that affected Second Chance, sometimes things will pass an initial safety and functionality test, only for it to be later discovered that the safety and functionality did not pan out in the long run under real world use. It is simply the case that, despite the best intentions, these things happen in life.
It is my opinion, based upon my personal observation, that after a period of time of doing the dynamic, ballistic exercises associated with Clubbell training (exercises actually promulgated by RMAX in their Clubbells DVD and their Clubbells book), there is a very real risk of the Clubbell snapping off at the zert, at which time depending upon its physical location in relation to the user’s body or that of a bystander, the Clubbell could become a serious health hazard. In fact at several points in both the book and the DVD, the point is made about how losing control of the Clubbell could be very dangerous.

Upon reflection and analysis I have come to the personal conclusion that it is certain exercises which generate the dynamics which result in the bending of the zert. Exercising with Clubbells is very challenging to the grip. When you mix this already existing grip challenge reality with certain dynamic exercises which cause the hand grip to slide towards the knob, what you get is a combination of physical stressors that the Clubbell is not designed to handle. There are certain highly dynamic/ballistic exercises promulgated by RMAX International (e.g swipes, mills, circles, pendulums, pre-swing cleans, pre-swing snatches, head casts) that result in the user’s hand grip sliding down towards the knob/neck juncture. This is unavoidable (if a user is to do more than a couple of repetitions of these exercises) and the knob would serve no legitimate function whatsoever if it were not intended to stop the hand from sliding any further to where the user would lose complete grip on the Clubbell and the Clubbell would go flying out of the user’s hand. What then happens during these moments of hand slide is that the meaty portion of the palm of the hand is in contact with the knob (usually in mid-swing and before a user can safely adjust). Depending upon the movement of the direction of the Clubbell at that moment of palm of hand/knob contact, the palm of the hand prevents any further physical movement of the Clubbell knob in that particular direction, yet the rest of the Clubbell is still moving. This causes intense stress at that very same spot that caused the single-unit Clubbell prototypes to snap. Only in the case of the two-piece Clubbell unit as it presently exists, it causes the zert to bend. A bent zert is only an accident waiting to happen once the stresses of the moment exceed the bent zert’s ability to handle the load. Once the zert snaps, depending upon the existing scenario, a catastrophe could happen.

After observing this canted knob on the one 20 lb. Clubbell, I then examined the rest of my Clubbells. I discovered that the knob was canted to lesser degrees (and ultimately the zert bent) on several other Clubbells. Specifically on my 15-pounder , my other 20-pounder, and on my 35-pounder. I also have a 25-pounder and a 45-pounder, however, they are newer and have been used much less often, particularly on the more dynamic exercises. I own a 5-pounder and a 10-pounder but I don’t use them much at all because the weight is insufficient for me to get anything out of except wrist casts and those exercises at those weights do not provide sufficient stress to the knob/neck juncture in my humble opinion. The fact that this same bending of the zert in four separate Clubbells has occurred is clear evidence of a design structure problem.

The only exercises I have ever done are those in the RMAX Clubbells DVD and book. I use the Clubbells about 3 times a week in total. Almost always one day each week is a total Clubbell based workout, and usually on several other days I use them as a supplement to the workout of the day (e.g. weight vest, kettle bell, dumbbell, barbell). In other words, I have never used them outside of the parameters of normal use that would be more than reasonable for such a product.
Clubbells are extremely expensive in comparison to traditional hand weights such as dumbbells. Because of the cost and potential danger combination, I highly recommend that people stay away from Clubbells. They are great pieces of weight equipment, and they have great potential, but in the here and the now they are not up to handling the stresses of the job for which they have been manufactured. Sometimes in life you live and you learn. That is my personal experience here. Just say no, unless you have lots of money to piss away!!!

I have signed up myself and already made most of my travel arrangements.

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