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Messages - Stickgrappler

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Martial Arts Topics / Re: Steven Seagal
« on: March 13, 2013, 10:43:58 AM »
First Anderson Silva, then Lyoto Machida, then rejected by Jon “Bones” Jones, now ….
*mental drumroll please*

Vladimir Putin.

Martial Arts Topics / Matt Brown KO of Mike Swick from UFC on Fox 5
« on: December 12, 2012, 11:16:10 AM »
I made 3 GIF’s of the Matt Brown KO of Mike Swick from UFC on Fox 5 and posted them to my site Brown KO of Mike Swick from UFC on Fox 5 and posted them to my site
Reposting here:




Martial Arts Topics / 3 more UFC 154 - GSP X Condit GIF's
« on: November 19, 2012, 10:36:17 PM »
call me silly i liked these 2 kicks - bad setup... GSP wasn't fooled... but i liked them

Rd 3 after Condit's combo which knocked down GSP, GSP replies later with this takedown after he sets it up with a few punches

Martial Arts Topics / Maestro Sonny Umpad on sharing knowledge
« on: November 19, 2012, 07:37:27 PM »
"You can always tell someone who has no roots, because he guards the leaves. But the true student has roots and a trunk, so he is always willing to give away leaves freely."

~Maestro Sonny Umpad

Sonny Umpad's Eskrima: The Life and Teachings of a Filipino Martial Arts Master
By George M. Yore
pg 36

Blue Snake Books
Bekeley, California
Copyright 2012

Martial Arts Topics / UFC 154 - GSP X Carlos Condit
« on: November 19, 2012, 05:27:40 AM »
Some gif's I made of the UFC 154 -  GSP X Carlos Condit fight from this past Saturday:

Round 1

Round 2

Round 3

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer and Daily Expression of Gratitude
« on: November 18, 2012, 04:41:02 PM »
Grateful for the huge turnout for my coworker's funeral today as well as hear stories about his personal life

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer and Daily Expression of Gratitude
« on: November 16, 2012, 07:52:04 AM »
Prayers to my coworker's family. 

He passed away yesterday. He was my age give it take - I'm 47. His kids are my kids ages. Hits home

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer and Daily Expression of Gratitude
« on: November 15, 2012, 07:03:23 AM »
Grateful I finished a good book and began what should be a good book


I like both fighters - Franklin and Le. Hate to see either one lose. Sad to see a fighter of Franklin's experience/caliber to neglect a BASIC - HANDS UP!


I only had time to make a gif of the KO from the realtime footage...sometime later tomorrow night, will make gif's of the KO from the slowmo footage and edit into this entry.



My friend Joe Silvia (aka Ausgepicht. is a MMA coach) is always ranting how coaches and fighters don't set up their low round kicks with the hands. Ace paid the price.

From facebook postings, sounds like an awesome seminar!

I had an opportunity to attend a Guro Crafty staff seminar back in 2001 or 2002 IIRC. I love the DBMA staff material. Great functional skills in addition to health benefits

Now gotta work on attending a Guro C stickgrappling seminar and I would be one less item off the Bucket List lol

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer and Daily Expression of Gratitude
« on: November 11, 2012, 08:26:55 PM »
My deepest gratitude for:

  • The Veterans of Past, Present and Future - THANK YOU!
  • DBIMA for the Veteran's Day Sale - it caught me off-guard as I was budgeting to save for Christmas purchases, but I will be living on a tight budget next few weeks to make it work
    • Pretty Kitty for her speedy replies to my questions regarding the Veteran's Day sale

Martial Arts Topics / Re: A Father's Question
« on: October 15, 2012, 06:28:21 PM »
Woof Guide Dog,

Salamat po for the advice!

She was the same daughter who passed test to get into the Baccalaureate School of Global Education if I remember the name correctly. That school is also highly rsnked within NYC  But she failed the interview as she was too quiet when teachers put her into a group and have them work together towards done project. Proud of her. Will keep you up on her progress.

Very truly yours,


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Rest in Peace RIP R.I.P.
« on: October 14, 2012, 02:55:13 PM »
Reports of Bob Bremer's passing...   :-(

I've read the same.

RIP Bremer sifu

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Boxing Thread
« on: October 11, 2012, 11:52:58 AM »
Sin #5. Don’t lead from the outside with an inside punch. The uppercut is an inside punch. The hook is an inside punch. Floyd Mayweather has a slick and effective left hook lead, but only because he uses it correctly. He uses it sparingly, he uses it selectively, but he is also Floyd Mayweather and there’s only one of those. As a general rule…don’t do it. Don’t lead with a hook or with an uppercut. They are outside punches and take too long to reach their mark. Instead, properly set them up with lead punches and sprinkle them into your combinations to make them most effective.


I'm guessing it's a typo and Doug Ward meant "inside" punches when he wrote "outside"

WOW! Cool you and you family are safe Kaju!

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer and Daily Expression of Gratitude
« on: October 11, 2012, 06:57:09 AM »
I haven't posted regularly on this thread, sometimes I believe if I talk about something, it may jinx things.

2 days ago - coworker (from different area) fainted in the ladies room.

another coworker (who works in our area) found her unconcious and rushed out and called 911

we don't know the woman as she is in a different area. EMT/firefighters and police showed up and took her to hospital yesterday

yesterday found out she passed away :(

didn't want to pry, clueless on details other than she was 40 yrs old.


please make sure you tell your loved ones you love them today and every day. we don't know when it's time.

last night, got home and told my family about what happened... i told them i loved them individually and hugged them. thankful for my family and health.

Martial Arts Topics / The Cardinal Sins of Boxing by Doug Ward
« on: October 10, 2012, 09:22:51 PM »
Thank you Leo Daher for posting this elsewhere which I copied and pasted here.

The Cardinal Sins of Boxing

by Doug Ward on October 9, 2012

There are some very specific things you have to do inside the ring to be a good boxer, but there are also some very specific things you should NEVER do in the ring in order to be a good boxer. Of course, there are the basic rules, like…don’t drop your jab when you bring it back, don’t step with the wrong foot first, be sure to keep your hands up and so on. Aside from some of these types of common, basic mistakes, there are a few more advanced ones that should be taken very seriously. Consider them the Cardinal Sins of Boxing.

Sin #1. Never, ever drop your hands when you are coming out of an exchange. If you step back with your hands down, you are almost always guaranteed to get clipped. Instances where this has come back to bite a fighter are endless, but for a perfect example, type Mike McCallum versus Donald Curry into YouTube and, at least, watch the fifth round to see the last, biggest mistake a once-promising fighter ever made.

Sin #2. Never step straight back when you go on the defensive. Step side to side, give your opponent angles and force them to adjust their attack to find you. When you move straight back, you are staying right in the line of fire and right on the end of your opponents punches…the last place you want to be.

Sin #3. When you have just ducked and slipped a combination and are coming up from a crouched position, come up throwing. Don’t just expect your opponent to stop throwing and let you stand up to engage again. Transform it into an offensive move by immediately retaliating from your defensive position and turning the tide back in your favor.

Sin #4. Never reach out to block punches. Make your opponent come to you. Make him commit to the punch, commit his weight and then counter. When you meet the punch half way, you make your opponent’s job too easy. Again, if you want a perfect example, look at the fourth round of Lennox Lewis versus Hasim Rahman on YouTube. The third round says it all.

Sin #5. Don’t lead from the outside with an inside punch. The uppercut is an inside punch. The hook is an inside punch. Floyd Mayweather has a slick and effective left hook lead, but only because he uses it correctly. He uses it sparingly, he uses it selectively, but he is also Floyd Mayweather and there’s only one of those. As a general rule…don’t do it. Don’t lead with a hook or with an uppercut. They are outside punches and take too long to reach their mark. Instead, properly set them up with lead punches and sprinkle them into your combinations to make them most effective.

Once you’re inside the ring, there are a myriad of mistakes you can make. Any one of them may be minor and have little or no effect on the outcome of the fight. Then, there is the other kind. It is major. It can be dramatic and it can work against you, sometimes spelling your defeat. No mistakes are good, but breaking any one of the Cardinal Sins of Boxing and you’re opening yourself up to making a major faux pas. It is usually unforgiving with bad consequences and you won’t get away with it very often. Confess to yourself or to your coach that you will never be tempted to do any of these. There is no good in them. Now go and sin no more.

Martial Arts Topics / Cheating in Schools
« on: October 10, 2012, 01:39:58 PM »

My Concern

My oldest daughter took the Specialized High Schools Admissions Test (SHSAT) and made it into Stuyvesant HS ("Stuy"). The only way to be admitted into this prestigious public (free) high school is to take the SHSAT and score above the 8 Specialized High Schools' cutoff scores. Stuy has the highest cutoff of the 8 schools. Stuy used to be consistently ranked in the 30's nationwide, seems like they fell to #58 this year.

Principal Stanley Teitel retired after the scandal. Ran the school for 13 yrs.

Although I truly believe cheating is prevalent in any school, I'm afraid the pressure on my daughter to excel in Stuy may pressure her to cheat. Afterall, she is in a school that has some of the smartest kids in NYC as her peers.

Although I've taught her cheating will not get her far in life, I'm still a little concerned that the pressured environment may force her to cheat. On the flip side, she may be one of the smartest and won't cheat, but other students may copy off of her and the teacher may accuse my daughter of cheating.

Perhaps I'm worrying over nothing but this is but one issue that continually plagues me.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: A Father's Question
« on: October 09, 2012, 07:09:35 PM »

Before i left work, i literally searched for this thread and wanted to post to it tomorrow!

You must be psychic!

p.s. although my post is not Martial Arts-related but is a father/parental concern.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Umpad Corto-Kadena
« on: October 08, 2012, 06:35:07 AM »
Woof all:

Reread the great Jan 2009 IKF article on Maestro Umpad yesterday, great overview of the system. A cool quote from memory:

"The stick is the husband and the knife is the wife."


Woof Stephen Browne:

Welcome to the Dog Brothers Public Forum!

Looking forward to reading your posts

Very truly yours in the MA and SD,


Martial Arts Topics / The Three R's ???
« on: October 05, 2012, 09:19:24 AM »
Guro C,

3)   Enemies of Respect, Reason, and Reciprocity e.g. Islamo-fascists and others of this meme.

The Three R's ???:  Respect, Reason, and Reciprocity   

from the Rambling Rumination: In Search of the Totality of Ritual & Reality (c) thread

Martial Arts Topics / Re: "Craftyisms"
« on: October 04, 2012, 01:49:39 PM »
LOL - very cool Guide Dog!



Keeping Distance thread

"The fastest progress comes from working the weakest link of the chain."

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer and Daily Expression of Gratitude
« on: October 04, 2012, 01:12:37 PM »
Speedy recovery Kaju Dog and Guide Dog!


Grateful clients sent in necessary paperwork before the deadline.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Who is your teacher?
« on: October 01, 2012, 11:17:47 AM »
Woof Guro C, words fail at how powerful this piece is! Thank you.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: "Craftyisms"
« on: September 27, 2012, 01:35:57 PM »
DOH! How are these not on this list yet?

"Walk as a Warrior for all their days"


"The 3 F's:  Fun, Fit, and Functional"

"The 3 H's:  Hurt, Heal, and Harmonize" (I've heard Dr. Gyi used this before)

Martial Arts Topics / Re: DB in the media
« on: September 27, 2012, 01:23:55 PM »
just a guess, old owners allowed google to scan and put up the books for free. the old owners sold to new owners who took over in 2005... i could be wrong though. hoping black belt will allow scanning and free viewing of 2005 onwards

Martial Arts Topics / Re: DB in the media
« on: September 27, 2012, 12:26:35 PM »
Nice finds SG!

Can you find my Kali Tudo article? (Sept '05) :-D

Tail wags Guro C.

Google Books sadly only put up the first issue of Black Belt through December 2004.

Digression:  although there are a few holes here and there I've noticed, it's almost complete from the beginning through 2004.

Martial Arts Topics / "Slow down to the speed of what you don't know."
« on: September 27, 2012, 10:01:18 AM »
"Slow down to the speed of what you don't know."

Martial Arts Topics / Re: DB in the media
« on: September 27, 2012, 09:30:14 AM »

Martial Arts Topics / Re: DB in the media
« on: September 27, 2012, 07:10:46 AM »
Woof C-Spartan Dog,

Great article! Read it this morning on a Facebook Share by Gong Fu Dog. That was awesome, thank you!!


Martial Arts Topics / Re: 9/23/12 Dog Brothers Open Gathering of the Pack
« on: September 21, 2012, 08:29:27 AM »
We are well over 60 fighters; barring a last minute epidemic of vaginitis, this will be the biggest Open Gathering ever.

congrats Guro C!


To the Fighters:

Have fun, be safe, and may the experience transform your Consciousness!

Very truly yours in the MA and SD,


Martial Arts Topics / Re: The Dog Brothers Tribe
« on: September 19, 2012, 12:19:36 PM »
Woof all:

Belated congrats on the Ascensions!


Happy New Year to you and your loved ones Marc!

and to the members who also celebrate, Happy New Year!

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Rambling Rumination: Odin's Eye
« on: September 13, 2012, 05:51:13 PM »
Woof Guro,

*Bows deeply*

That is one of the best Rambling Rumination I've read if not THE best

Much mulling and ruminating to do.

Salamat po. Mabuhay ang DBMA!

Very truly yours in the MA & SD,


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Boxing Thread
« on: September 12, 2012, 07:39:32 PM »

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dogzilla & the Hawaii Clan
« on: September 12, 2012, 10:17:27 AM »
Woof Kostas,

*bows deeply*

Good luck! Cannot wait for it!

Very truly yours in the MA,


Martial Arts Topics / The Wisdom of Mike Gibbons.
« on: September 12, 2012, 10:14:28 AM »
My deepest thanks to marbleheadmaui of for posting this


Mike Gibbons was the older and smaller of the legendary Gibbons Brothers. Mike was mostly a middle and fought around the WWI years. How good was he? How about 110+ wins against a dozen losses and he was never knocked out. How good was the competition? Mike went 4-2 against HOFers including a win over a young Harry Greb. In other words Mike Gibbons was the real deal.

He published several books on training and boxing technique the following is taken from his How to Box published in 1925. The book is seventy five pages of instruction with extraordinary demonstration photos showing the Gibbons Brothers using model technique. The book covers every element of the sport and I am going to focus on his commentary on "Ring Generalship." As always the ideas are Gibbons with any comments I might have in parenthesis.

Size Up the Opponent
  • Boxing generalship is planning your tactics and strategies.
  • If the foe is a thinking fighter one should begin cautiously so not to be led into a trap.
  • If he is merely a puncher, start fast and move to back him up.

Keep Him on the Defensive
  • At the opening bell come out confidently and keep walking forward until the foe is in retreat. As you come forward feint and threaten and you can move him backwards without throwing a punch.
  • Going backwards is far more difficult and tiring.
  • Occasionally back off just to change things up and make the other man think.
  • When you set the pace and have the initiative the fight being fought is your fight.

Don't Rush Wildly
  • Aggression requires brains, not brawn. You can be aggressive without even punching.
  • Try to take the lead at the beginning of each round and hold it throughout. But don't go overboard. Save the hardest punching for the second half of the round when the foe is tiring a little.
  • If you've noticed little faults in the opponent don't move on them too early in the round. Wait until he's slowed a bit and is even more vulnerable. (This is pretty sophisticated stuff, I'd have taken a shot whenever I thought it would work).
  • Judges, reporters and fans remember what happens at the end of the round (See Ray Leonard v Hagler)

Never Lead Blindly
  • Never lead unless you know why you are taking a certain action. Otherwise you may walk into a trap.
  • When you hurt your man do not rush. Punch deliberately and with purpose and do not forget to feint to open him up. Accuracy is more important than volume in finishing. (See Joe Louis)

Develop Easy Style
  • A good style enables one to relax and conserve energy while leaving you in a position to be effective (Old Roberto Duran)
  • Keeping feet, shoulders and hands always moving a little one prevents the strain that comes with being stationary (see Young Roberto Duran)
  • Feinting is a key to generalship. This is how one gathers information on what the foe is tying to do and how he'll react to what you are doing. (Nobody better at this today than BHOP).

Change Your Tactics
  • Change tactics frequently to keep the foe guessing. (Juan Manuel Marquez has really learned to do this).
  • Never be in one spot for longer than a moment (If there is ONE lesson for young fighters to learn this is it).
  • When you run into a fighter who is doing something hard to figure out? When he starts it? Launch an all out attack. This will discourage him from trying it. When he moves to doing something you are comfortable with. Keep him there by LOOKING worried until you find the openings you want (Mike Gibbons is a pretty smart guy huh?)

Box Your Own Style
  • If a guy likes to stand and trade? Don't. If a guy likes to retreat? Make him stand and trade. (Versatility is a great advantage obviously).
  • Encourage a guy who likes to retreat to lead and attack (See Tommy Hearns and Wilfredo Benitez)
  • Encourage the punch you want to counter by making the foe miss his other punches but let that punch land lightly or graze you. Next time? He's going to throw it even harder and THAT is when you counter and counter hard (Meet Mr. Floyd Mayweather)
  • Feint, feint, feint

Keep Cool When Hurt
  • Keep expression constant when taking a big punch
  • If not really hurt, attack and take the play away. Keep an eye out for the punch that hurt you.
  • If hurt badly? Clinch, clinch, clinch until your head clears. Do anything to survive.
  • If knocked down take whatever count you need to clear your head and no more. Then follow the guidelines above.

Keep Chin Protected
  • Keep chin tucked and try to take blows, that cannot be avoided, on the head, not in the face. (Again see BHOP)
  • Do NOT take a blow to land one. "The crowd at a boxing contest likes to see a fellow stand up and take it, but their applause is poor compensation for a tinned ear, broken nose or becoming mentally deranged from continuous blows on the jaws or temple." (AMEN)
  • Don't try any blow or defensive move you can't employ properly. Experimenting should only be done in training.

Look Out For Traps
  • Do not fall for a foes in-ring talk
  • Always have an idea what you want to do, but never stay wedded to a plan that isn't working. Thinking in the ring is essential.

Martial Arts Topics / The Wisdom of Charley Goldman.
« on: September 12, 2012, 10:13:14 AM »
My deepest thanks to marbleheadmaui of for posting this


Charley Goldman was a pre-WWI bantamweight. He stood 5'1. He had over 130 fights and was by most accounts a competent journeyman though he did get a shot at the bantam crown on one occasion. Goldman retired at 29 due to among other things, terribly brittle hands.

But Goldman is far better known as the trainer of a series of undisputed champions. Middleweight Al McCoy, featherweight Joey Archibald and lightweight king Lou Ambers. Goldman is most well known as the man who shaped Rocky Marciano. In 1957 Goldman, Marciano and a manager, judo expert and writer named Al Bachman published a how to book. The book is just under 200m pages and loaded with insights on every element of the sport. It is clearly designed for the young man just taking up the game and is titled Rocky Marciano's Boy's Book of Boxing and Body Building.

One section really had me thinking after the fights of the last two weeks. It is authored by Goldman and is titled The Art of Infighting. He writes separately for the unusually tall and the unusually short fighter and goes so far, along with Marciano, to detail two fictional fights, one from each perspective, near the end of the book. But here I'll stick to the basic instruction. As usual these are Goldman's thoughts with mine in parenthesis.

Short Fighters
  • With hands held reasonably high either bob, weave and shuffle towards the taller foe or take deliberate steps towards him while moving the head from side to side. (Think Joe Frazier for the former and Marvin Hagler for the latter)
  • When the tall fighter leads, make him miss and then close until you are close to his stomach and let go short punches. (Making him miss is only half the task at hand. Turning it into an advantage is a must)
  • "When you get inside, stay there!" (A mistake too many fighters make. They get inside, throw a few punches and then voluntarily retreat. Though not a short guy, Brandon Rios is a good example of a guy who when he gets inside stays there).
  • "When you are close to [the taller foe] keep moving almost rushing forward at the same time shooting short chopping punches to the body. Your opponent will try to back away or hold on if he can. Don't let him. Keep ripping your arms away from his clinches and chopping those punches to his midriff. Also when in close push your opponent's arms away from the front of his body and outward." (I found the two bolded sections the most illuminating. I noted that 13 hadn't stepped inside, but completely missed that even if he had he had to rush forward to counter Wlad's retreat. The second bold we've seen how many times? Wlad grabs and the shorter foe goes completely passive. He doesn't battle for position or punching room at all. Now some of that is surely Wlad's strength, but nobody even tries to make him fight inside!)
Tall Fighters
  • Long arms are a handicap in infighting. (Mr Paul Williams, calling Mr. Paul Williams!)
  • If you (the tall man) are fighting a strong, shorter man who keeps rushing you? Grab his right arm in the crook of his elbow, underneath his bicep with your left glove. (Yup, ole Charley recommends the clinch! Why fight at a disadvantage?). The force the forearm between your right bicep and side.
  • Keep your left foot between the shorter man's two feet and your right foot outside. Keep your body pivoted to the right. Now make your right arm do double duty and pound at the ribs with short shots. Now push the shorter man backwards and push his arms back as you do so. (Wlad does about half of this. He doesn't punch. He just clamps down until a break is called for).

Things for both to remember
  • Do not keep your chin on the other guy's shoulder or above his head. Too big a chance of injury.
  • When the referee calls break, take your right hand and push the other man away and then move to your right and fast with your hands up. (It's pretty obvious you don't want to stand in front of a guy, but how often do you see this?). As Goldman notes at the end of this section "Protect yourself at all times."

Martial Arts Topics / The Wisdom of Jack Dempsey.
« on: September 12, 2012, 10:12:32 AM »
My deepest thanks to marbleheadmaui of for posting this


    The Jimmy Wilde and Barney Ross books I summarized recently were both useful and insightful. But Jack Dempsey's "Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching and Aggressive Defense" is on another level entirely. It is far longer and absolutely full of insights, thoughtful approaches, sketches and explanations. It is a boxing tour de force. I was very surprised by two things. First, I think of Dempsey as a kind of raw offensive machine. It simply ain't true. The knowledge he imparts here is comprehensive. Secondly, Dempsey and his editor Jack Cuddy make it sounds like Dempsey is actually teaching the reader. Concise declarative sentences. Written in 1950.

    Dempsey spends a great deal of time on the Trigger Step (also called the Falling Step) as a source of power among other things, but I found the most interesting sections were on Defensive Technique. The thoughts below are all Dempsey's except for those in parenthesis which are kine.

    Dempsey begins with his definition of defense : How to prevent a starting punch from landing on its target, and how to counter with a punch. (the bold is mine. How often do we see fighters today avoid getting hit and not doing anything else? I found it fascinating that Dempsey was utterly dismissive of jumping away or moving out of punching range as legitimate, championship level defense. Why? Because it only does half the job. Jumping away or moving out of range isn't Aggressive Defense because one cannot counterpunch while doing those things.)

    Dempsey provides a cascade of defense.

    Blocking-This is the least preferable. Why? A solid block can affect one's balance, because repeated shots on say the left deltoid can affect punching power as the fight goes on and because one cannot punch while blocking. Blocking can be done with the hands, shoulders, combined with a body pivot, forearms and elbows and can be used against all punches. Dempsey goes punch by punch with the best options. He emphasizes the eyes must be kept open because for each block there is a best immediate counter. This is the first kind of defense to be taught. (Fighters like Mr. Ronald Wright and Arthur Abraham never moved beyond it. Fighters like James Toney and BHOP and Floyd Mayweather rely on the shoulder portion of this technique).

    Deflection-This is parrying and "brushing off." Brushing off is also called "glancing-off." This is a violent chopping movement. Deflection is superior to Blocking because one's balance remains unaffected, one is not taking punches that can wear over time and because it is done with one hand at a time so the other is free to punch. One limitation of this technique is it should be avoided against hooks. The parry is used against straight punches (think Mr. Miyagi's "side-side.") Dempsey notes that cross-Parries, i.e. blocking a left jab with one's left hand, are a bad idea as you are open to a counter right hand with nothing to stop it. Dempsey also warns against parrying "inside-out" against fast handed foes. The "Glance-off" is a more solid deflection. This move is why fighters use the backhand on the speedbag. This is training the deflection. (Think "wax-on, wax-off" and "paint the fence" taught by Mr. Miyagi. Joe Louis, Alexis Arguello and again BHOP, Toney and Floyd rely on this as does Juan Manuel Marquez).

    Evasion-The King of defensive techniques. Evasion is forcing the foe to miss a punch without any physical contact, while remaining in position to land a counter. Why is it the king? No punishment taken and both hands free to counterpunch. Dempsey outlines four ways to evade; Slipping, bobbing, footwork and pulling away. A slip is simply rolling the shoulders that allows a straight punch to go over a shoulder. (Willie Pep, Joe Gans, Salvador Sanchez, Tony Canzoneri, Sweet Pea are wonderful practitioners of this.) Dempsey outlines the best counter against each punch and whether that punch has been slipped to the right or left. Bobbing is simply artful bowing from the waist and is especially effective against hooks to the head and in closing on the foe. No foot movement is used for either the slip or the bob. As a result the feet are ready to punch. Now when bobbing one must always be ready to simultaneously slip (the "bob and weave"). By slipping while bobbing one makes the head hard to hit and adds uncertainty as to where you are moving or punching next. (Think Joe Frazier, Nicolino Locche, a young Mike Tyson and of course Dempsey himself). Footwork can be the defensive sidestep, a single step and a pivot with the other foot. If stepping right the right foot steps and the left pivots. One punches as the stepping foot lands, not while it is stepping. Another useful piece of footwork is stepping inside a hook toward the foe. A variety of punches are available in each case. But in general when stepping inside one throws the opposite hand of the one being evaded. For example a left hook is best countered by stepping inside and throwing the right hand. (Joe Gans, Floyd Mayweather, Barney Ross, Willie Pep, Benny Leonard all did lots of this). The worst kind of evasion is "pulling away." This is basically swaying from the waist and shifting one's weight to the back foot with or without a step. This is a last resort against straight punches but should never be used against hooks to the head. (Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali anyone?). The problem is once someone gets used to pulling away from straight punches they often instinctively try to do so against hooks.

    If you can get your hands on this book it really is a treat!

Martial Arts Topics / The Wisdom of Barney Ross.
« on: September 12, 2012, 10:11:55 AM »
My deepest thanks to marbleheadmaui of for posting this


    The greatest Jewish fighter of all time, the second man to be an undisputed three division champion and one of THE fascinating lives ever lived. Father killed in a robbery, worked for Al Capone, degenerate gambler, after he retired he joined the Marines and was a decorated hero on Guadalcanal and later ran guns to Israel. Shortly after he retired he published "The Fundamentals of Boxing." I'll stick to the high points. Except for the parenthetical, the thoughts are those of Barney Ross. This book is more complete and in depth than Wilde's so I am going to stick to major points and boxing tactics.

  • The transition from defense to offense is where fights are won. Surprise is a major weapon.
  • All punches should land with a corkscrew motion to maximize power
  • Ross disagrees with Wilde in that he believes the uppercut can be a valuable punch but that it is dangerous if not thrown correctly
  • Jumping or hopping is poor technique as one cannot counter, sidestepping is far better as is the pivot.
  • In footwork, less is more. Move the minimal distance necessary to accomplish the goal. Save the legs.
  • Unorthodox fighters like Tony Canzoneri (the 1930's Roy Jones) should not be imitated
  • A weary fighter is more easily KO'd and KO's are a matter of timing and accuracy more than simple power.

  • Often the best way to begin countering is to take a single short step backward (See Salvador Sanchez or Joe Louis)
  • "A good defensive fighters learns to judge instinctively how hard his foe can punch and where he punches most effectively" (Floyd Mayweather anyone?)
  • Clinching is a skill that must be acquired to be a good defensive fighter
  • The "sliding roll" is taking a short step backward to avoid a punch while at the same time dropping the head underneath the coming punch. Now one is in perfect position to counter (as Mr. Miyagi taught "Best block is no be there.")
  • Parrying blows to the inside is preferable to taking punches on the gloves or forearms
  • Like Wilde, Ross emphasizes the importance of "swaying at the hips." (Think Sweet Pea)
  • Methods of avoiding the jab/hook are slipping, swaying, ducking ( a dangerous method) parrying (four possible directions), sidestepping and the simplest, catching it. (How many guys know these?)
  • The left to the body is best blocked rather than jumped back or sidestepped.
  • A straight right can be parried by the right hand or blocked by hunching the left shoulder (BHOP or James Toney) though a sidestep or a slip can leave one in a better position to counter.
  • No rules for stopping the uppercut. Various blocks or the sway are possible

  • "With a counter you accumulate the power of your own body and the power of the he comes to you."
  • Sidestepping is generally preferable to ducking as a set up.
  • The trick is to catch the foe off balance and coming to you
  • To counter a straight right, side step and throw a very short left hook. If it misses throw up your arms to block the next right hand.
  • Each counter should be a lesson learned. If the foe blocked the hook to the head? Next time counter to the ribcage.
  • The exact counterpunch chosen depends upon the method of defense used to avoid the initial punch. In other words a sway will lead to a different counter than a slip or a duck etc.
  • Quickness is critical in countering
  • Perhaps the most effective countering situation is stepping inside a left hook and delivering a short right to the jaw (Joe Louis anyone?)
  • When a fighter tires the right cross often disappears.

    Offensive Strategy
  • "Greatest offensive weapon is a keen mind."
  • One must learn to feint to camouflage one's punches
  • Feints employ every part of the body, the eys, half punches, false steps, rolling a shoulder etc.
  • "Drawing an opponent's lead" is critical. This means showing phony openings so he'll throw the punch you want him to throw (Juan Manuel Marquez wrecked The Baby Bull this way)
  • Of course clever fighters know you are doing this, so be careful
  • Keep on the move, but stay balanced and prepared to hit.

    Bodypunching and Infighting
  • Particularly effective against tall fighters
  • The liver, kidney's (then a legal punch) and solar plexus are best spots
  • To get inside foes punches, crouch, try to draw a jab, step inside and crowd him and try to get your head to the opponents left shoulder and let go with short, snappy punches and keep him there until you are done. (That's the way Henry Armstrong retired Barney)
  • When on offensive keep elbows close to hips to stop counters.
  • If on defense, sidestep and jab, if that doesn't work, close guard and throw uppercuts or clinch

  • Three goals-Bring vitality to highest pitch, increase skill and perfect knowledge of strategy (what I call craft)
  • A training schedule must be kept with clocklike perfection.
  • As a general rule a fighter should spend approximately five minutes with the medicine ball and light weights, an hour on calisthenics and 30 minutes each on the heavy bag/speed bag/double end bag, jumping rope, sparring and shadow boxing (that's 3+ hours daily in addition to running)
  • Keep mouth closed while breathing
  • Sparring should be full speed. Anything less is too far away from an actual fight to be of use.
  • Sparring should be done with specific goals regarding specific situations
  • Eat sparingly, Ross typically ate twice a day with proteins, whole grains and vegetables

    Here is how Barney Ross closes his book

    Only a small part of a champion's greatness lies in his ability. Far more important is his eagerness to learn, his flair for adding finesse and polish to his style. Most important of all is his love of the game. Every great champion was once a beginner. Without this essential love for the sport, he would always remain a beginner.

Martial Arts Topics / The Wisdom of Jimmy Wilde.
« on: September 12, 2012, 10:11:06 AM »
Guro C, if this is the wrong thread to post these, please advise. Salamat po.


My deepest thanks to marbleheadmaui of for posting this


    I have been fortunate enough to find a wonderful source for old time boxing books. Mr. Clay Moyle. Moyle is best known for his recent biography of Sam Langford (which I recommend). From time to time I will provide book reports of sorts.

    The first is a short 1927 book by the immortal Jimmy Wilde entitled The Art of Boxing. For those unfamiliar with Wilde he is basically the man the flyweight division was created for. A Welshman, Wilde is p4p one of the top ten punchers in history. He was tiny at 5'2 and for much of his career he fought at under 100 pounds. He usually weighed in fully clothed including his shoes and spent his whole career outweighed by 10-20 pounds. Yet somehow he knocked out over 100 men. While fighting in the US he often was forced to put on weight in order to fight legally as many states had laws limiting weight differentials. Catchweights indeed! Gene Tunney called Wilde the finest fighter he ever saw. Here are some of the points he makes in his book I found interesting. All of the below (with the obvious exceptions) are the thoughts of Jimmy Wilde:

  • Wilde was completely untaught. He learned everything through trial and error or by watching other fighters.
  • The most important basic talents are fast hands, fast feet and a quick mind;
  • He learned his trade fighting all comers, of all sizes, in traveling fair fights. The rule was one pound sterling to anyone who lasted three rounds. Wilde fought as many as 16 men in one day. He KO'd 15 that day but the 5'11, 135 pounder went the distance.
  • Throughout most of his career he fought with four ounce gloves;

    The Stance
  • Upright. Wilde believes the crouch is not as effective;
  • Elbows at waist height, right arm resting across stomach, left forearm at almost a right angle to the body. Wilde believes this is the most relaxing possible position that still leaves one able to throw any punch in the book;
  • Weight on right foot

    Attack and Defense
  • Defense is the most important element. This is shocking coming from one of the most offensively oriented fighters in history;
  • The key punch is of course the jab to the face. Hand and foot move together with no prior feint. Right foot stays anchored to the canvas so as not to reach or get off balance. The jab should be hard;
  • If the jab can be made to work? The rest of the fight proceeds relatively easily.
  • But another quality fighter will catch or evade the jab and counter and in this case balance is critical;
  • The likely counter is a right cross and swaying back slightly from the hips only, with feet not moving, leaves Wilde prepared to counter-counter the foe who may now be off balance himself (think James Toney or Floyd Mayweather);
  • Wilde also recommends the slip of the head. He emphasizes that you want to make the foe miss by only a little. The reason is it is easier for Wilde to stay on balance and to counterpunch with precision;
  • Wilde recommends a lot of upper body movement, but not a lot of foot movement. When they move it must be quick, but only with a purpose. Wilde preferred to stay in the pocket and pivot (think Pernell Whittaker). It takes less energy.
  • The chin should always be tucked but the head always up to maximize vision. Wilde emphasizes that the greatest opportunities come in the transition from defense to offense.

    The Knock Out
  • Wilde never shoots for a KO. It is instead the inevitable result of doing things properly, of outboxing the other man. It is the result of so comprehensively battering his opponent that he can no longer defend;
  • The effectiveness of the right hand is usually dependent on how effective the left has previously been;
  • Wilde argues all punches should be thrown hard;
  • That requires tremendous confidence in one's accuracy and balance. Most light hitters lack that confidence more than anything else;
  • Speed is almost everything in doing a key thing, flustering your foe. What Wilde means by that is preventing him from thinking effectively;
  • This is when feints can lead to knockouts;
  • One should pursue opportunities to end the fight completely on the offensive, one should disregard what the other man might do in return. At this point Wilde may even square up to flurry and get the fight stopped;
  • Punching straight, and with the hands held below the shoulder, maximizes power;
  • Uppercut rarely. It is too dangerous to the thumb of the puncher (I wonder if he'd hold to that view with today's gloves);
  • When the other man covers up? Go to the body. Specifically the heart and the stomach;

    Countering the Jab
  • Parry it, sway from the waist, sidestep it, 2-3 together makes for a great countering opportunity;
  • Wilde parries with either hand (something I'd never heard before). He makes the left hand parry effective by sidestepping at the same time to land a counter right cross;
  • When parrying with his right (the more ordinary method) he follows up by stepping inside and throwing the left to either the body or the head and then the right to the head. Wilde notes that classicists believe this move takes extraordinary athleticism and is a mistake for most fighters;

    Injuries and How to Conceal Them (think Jimmy Wilde was a man or what?)
  • Fighting while sick, or not at 100% is simply inevitable;
  • When a hand is injured it is essential to intentionally throw and miss with that hand. The foes must be kept thinking;
  • When hurt by a punch often the best response is a sham attack;
  • When a hand or thumb is broken a good move is to miss with that hand and then land a mild backhand shot when you bring it back. The ref will only warn you, it doesn't hurt and the foe will think the hand is functional;

  • Judgement, recognizing the true condition of the opponent, is critical (think JMM stepping on the accelerator);
  • At the end of a round relax entirely. Go slack. Never expend unnecessary energy;
  • Getting hit occasionally to set something specific up can make sense. Never make the foe miss badly. Make him miss barely;
  • Except when throwing the right hand, move only the left foot. Pivot off the right but don't move it once you are in distance. Use your left foot to change the angle of attack frequently;
  • Do not let your man get yards distant or lean upon you;
  • Prioritize power over flashy movement;
  • Be quick anytime you move or punch;
  • The key is understanding what your foe is trying to do and countering it.

    I hope you all learned at least something from Jimmy Wilde. I sure did.

Martial Arts Topics / sleight of hand
« on: September 10, 2012, 11:32:48 AM »

retrying with coding

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Punched to Death
« on: September 10, 2012, 10:16:55 AM »

How easy is it to kill a man in a fistfight?
It happens more than twice a day, on average. Fists and feet were responsible for 745 murders in 2010, or 5.7 percent of all murders that year, according to FBI statistics. (The data on this have been remarkably stable in recent years. In the five preceding years, the percentage of murders perpetrated by fists or feet fluctuated between 5.6 and 6.1.) It doesn’t even take an experienced brawler to punch someone to death: An 11-year-old California girl appears to have killed a classmate with her bare hands in a February fistfight

Woof bigdog,

belated thanks for posting that link and stats!


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Hot tip for Renzo Gracie: STFU
« on: September 10, 2012, 09:50:00 AM »

glad no one was killed. he said he wasn't inebriated, just wonder if he was under any influence, if not i think Renzo's ego got the best of him.

Martial Arts Topics / Happy Birthday Summerlin!
« on: June 23, 2012, 08:44:24 AM »

Happy Birthday Summerlin!

Many more to come, may this special day find your heart's desire!

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer and Daily Expression of Gratitude
« on: December 31, 2011, 04:21:05 PM »
Very cool Guro C and PK! Enjoy!

Happy New Year to the DB forumites! May the New Year find you and your loved ones healthier, wealthier, wiser, happier, and more successful than this last year!

Martial Arts Topics / RIP Smokin' Joe Frazier
« on: November 08, 2011, 07:42:28 PM »

November 7, 2011
Joe Frazier, Ex-Heavyweight Champ, Dies at 67

Joe Frazier, the former heavyweight champion whose furious and intensely personal fights with a taunting Muhammad Ali endure as an epic rivalry in boxing history, died Monday night at his home in Philadelphia. He was 67.

His business representative, Leslie Wolff, said the cause was liver cancer. An announcement over the weekend that Frazier had received the diagnosis in late September and had been moved to hospice care early this month prompted an outpouring of tributes and messages of support.

Known as Smokin’ Joe, Frazier stalked his opponents around the ring with a crouching, relentless attack — his head low and bobbing, his broad, powerful shoulders hunched — as he bore down on them with an onslaught of withering jabs and crushing body blows, setting them up for his devastating left hook.

It was an overpowering modus operandi that led to versions of the heavyweight crown from 1968 to 1973. Frazier won 32 fights in all, 27 by knockouts, losing four times — twice to Ali in furious bouts and twice to George Foreman. He also recorded one draw.

A slugger who weathered repeated blows to the head while he delivered punishment, Frazier proved a formidable figure. But his career was defined by his rivalry with Ali, who ridiculed him as a black man in the guise of a Great White Hope. Frazier detested him.

Ali vs. Frazier was a study in contrasts. Ali: tall and handsome, a wit given to spouting poetry, a magnetic figure who drew adulation and denigration alike, the one for his prowess and outsize personality, the other for his antiwar views and Black Power embrace of Islam. Frazier: a bull-like man of few words with a blue-collar image and a glowering visage who in so many ways could be on an equal footing with his rival only in the ring.

Ali proclaimed, “I am the greatest” and he preened how he could “float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.” Frazier had no inclination for oratorical bravado. “Work is the only meanin’ I’ve ever known,” he told Playboy in 1973. “Like the man in the song says, I just gotta keep on keepin’ on.”

Frazier won the undisputed heavyweight title with a 15-round decision over Ali at Madison Square Garden in March 1971, in an extravaganza known as the Fight of the Century. Ali scored a 12-round decision over Frazier at the Garden in a nontitle bout in January 1974. Then came the Thrilla in Manila championship bout, in October 1975, regarded as one of the greatest fights in boxing history. It ended when a battered Frazier, one eye swollen shut, did not come out to face Ali for the 15th round.

The Ali-Frazier battles played out at a time when the heavyweight boxing champion was far more celebrated than he is today, a figure who could stand alone in the spotlight a decade before an alphabet soup of boxing sanctioning bodies arose, making it difficult for the average fan to figure out just who held what title.

The rivalry was also given a political and social cast. Many viewed the Ali-Frazier matches as a snapshot of the struggles of the 1960s. Ali, an adherent of the Nation of Islam who had changed his name from Cassius Clay, came to represent rising black anger in America and opposition to the Vietnam War. Frazier voiced no political views, but he was nonetheless depicted, to his consternation, as the favorite of the establishment. Ali called him ignorant, likened him to a gorilla and said his black supporters were Uncle Toms.

“Frazier had become the white man’s fighter, Mr. Charley was rooting for Frazier, and that meant blacks were boycotting him in their heart,” Norman Mailer wrote in Life magazine after the first Ali-Frazier bout.

Frazier, wrote Mailer, was “twice as black as Clay and half as handsome,” with “the rugged decent life-worked face of a man who had labored in the pits all his life.”

Frazier could never match Ali’s charisma or his gift for the provocative quote. He was essentially a man devoted to a brutal craft, willing to give countless hours to his spartan training-camp routine and unsparing of his body inside the ring.

“The way I fight, it’s not me beatin’ the man: I make the man whip himself,” Frazier told Playboy. “Because I stay close to him. He can’t get out the way.” He added: “Before he knows it — whew! — he’s tired. And he can’t pick up his second wind because I’m right back on him again.”

In his autobiography, “Smokin’ Joe,” written with Phil Berger, Frazier said his first trainer, Yank Durham, had given him his nickname. It was, he said, “a name that had come from what Yank used to say in the dressing room before sending me out to fight: ‘Go out there, goddammit, and make smoke come from those gloves.’ “

Foreman knocked out Frazier twice but said he had never lost his respect for him. “Joe Frazier would come out smoking,” Foreman told ESPN. “If you hit him, he liked it. If you knocked him down, you only made him mad.”

Durham said he saw a fire always smoldering in Frazier. “I’ve had plenty of other boxers with more raw talent,” he told The New York Times Magazine in 1970, “but none with more dedication and strength.”

Ali himself was conciliatory when Frazier’s battle with cancer became publicly known. “My family and I are keeping Joe and his family in our daily prayers,” Ali said in his statement over the weekend. “Joe has a lot of friends pulling for him, and I’m one of them.”

And when word reached him that Frazier had died, Ali, in another statement, said: “The world has lost a great champion. I will always remember Joe with respect and admiration.”

Billy Joe Frazier was born on Jan. 12, 1944, in Laurel Bay, S.C., the youngest of 12 children. His father, Rubin, and his mother, Dolly, worked in the fields, and the youngster known as Billy Boy dropped out of school at 13. He dreamed of becoming a boxing champion, throwing his first punches at burlap sacks he stuffed with moss and leaves, pretending to be Joe Louis or Ezzard Charles or Archie Moore.

At 15, Frazier went to New York to live with a brother. A year later he moved to Philadelphia, taking a job in a slaughterhouse. At times he battered sides of beef, using them as a punching bag to work out, the kind of scene used by Slyvester Stallone in the film “Rocky,” though Stallone said that he drew on the life of the heavyweight contender Chuck Wepner in developing the Rocky character.

Durham discovered Frazier boxing to lose weight at a Police Athletic League gym in Philadelphia. Under Durham’s guidance, Frazier captured a Golden Gloves championship and won the heavyweight gold medal at the 1964 Tokyo Olympics.

He turned pro in August 1965, with financial backing from businessmen calling themselves the Cloverlay Group (from cloverleaf, for good luck, and overlay, a betting term signifying good odds). He won his first 11 bouts by knockouts. By winter 1968, his record was 21-0.

A year before Frazier’s pro debut, Cassius Clay won the heavyweight championship in a huge upset of Sonny Liston. Soon afterward, affirming his rumored membership in the Nation of Islam, he became Muhammad Ali. In April 1967, having proclaimed, “I ain’t got nothing against them Vietcong,” Ali refused to be drafted, claiming conscientious objector status. Boxing commissions stripped him of his title, and he was convicted of evading the draft.

An eight-man elimination tournament was held to determine a World Boxing Association champion to replace Ali. Frazier refused to participate when his financial backers objected to the contract terms for the tournament, and Jimmy Ellis took the crown.

But in March 1968, Frazier won the version of the heavyweight title recognized by New York and a few other states, defeating Buster Mathis with an 11th-round technical knockout. He took the W.B.A. title in February 1970, stopping Ellis, who did not come out for the fifth round.

In the summer of 1970, Ali won a court battle to regain his boxing license, then knocked out the contenders Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena. The stage was set for an Ali-Frazier showdown, a matchup of unbeaten fighters, on March 8, 1971, at Madison Square Garden.

Each man was guaranteed $2.5 million, the biggest boxing payday ever. Frank Sinatra was at ringside taking photos for Life magazine. The former heavyweight champion Joe Louis received a huge ovation. Hubert H. Humphrey, back in the Senate after serving as vice president, sat two rows in front of the Irish political activist Bernadette Devlin, who shouted, “Ali, Ali,” her left fist held high. An estimated 300 million watched on television worldwide, and the gate of $1.35 million set a record for an indoor bout.

Frazier, at 5 feet 11 1/2 inches and 205 pounds, gave up three inches in height and nearly seven inches in reach to Ali, but he was a 6-to-5 betting favorite. Just before the fighters received their instructions from the referee, Ali, displaying his arrogance of old, twice touched Frazier’s shoulders as he whirled around the ring. Frazier just glared at him.

Frazier wore Ali down with blows to the body while moving underneath Ali’s jabs. In the 15th round, Frazier unleashed his famed left hook, catching Ali on the jaw and flooring him for a count of 4, only the third time Ali had been knocked down. Ali held on, but Frazier won a unanimous decision.

Frazier declared, “I always knew who the champ was.”

Frazier continued to bristle over Ali’s taunting. “I’ve seen pictures of him in cars with white guys, huggin’ ‘em and havin’ fun,” Frazier told Sport magazine two months after the fight. “Then he go call me an Uncle Tom. Don’t say, ‘I hate the white man,’ then go to the white man for help.”

For Frazier, 1971 was truly triumphant. He bought a 368-acre estate called Brewton Plantation near his boyhood home and became the first black man since Reconstruction to address the South Carolina Legislature. Ali gained vindication in June 1971 when the United States Supreme Court overturned his conviction for draft evasion.

Frazier defended his title against two journeymen, Terry Daniels and Ron Stander, but Foreman took his championship away on Jan. 22, 1973, knocking him down six times in their bout in Kingston, Jamaica, before the referee stopped the fight in the second round.

Frazier met Ali again in a nontitle bout at the Garden on Jan. 28, 1974. Frazier kept boring in and complained that Ali was holding in the clinches, but Ali scored with flurries of punches and won a unanimous 12-round decision.

Ali won back the heavyweight title in October 1974, knocking out Foreman in Kinshasa, Zaire — the celebrated Rumble in the Jungle. Frazier went on to knock out Quarry and Ellis, setting up his third match, and second title fight, with Ali: the Thrilla in Manila, on Oct. 1, 1975.

In what became the most brutal Ali-Frazier battle, the fight was held at the Philippine Coliseum at Quezon City, outside the country’s capital, Manila. The conditions were sweltering, with hot lights overpowering the air-conditioning.

Ali, almost a 2-to-1 betting favorite in the United States, won the early rounds, largely remaining flat-footed in place of his familiar dancing style. Before Round 3 he blew kisses to President Ferdinand Marcos and his wife, Imelda, in the crowd of about 25,000.

But in the fourth round, Ali’s pace slowed while Frazier began to gain momentum. Chants of “Frazier, Frazier” filled the arena by the fifth round, and the crowd seemed to favor him as the fight moved along, a contrast to Ali’s usually enjoying the fans’ plaudits.

Frazier took command in the middle rounds. Then Ali came back on weary legs, unleashing a flurry of punches to Frazier’s face in the 12th round. He knocked out Frazier’s mouthpiece in the 13th round, then sent him stumbling backward with a straight right hand.

Ali jolted Frazier with left-right combinations late in the 14th round. Frazier had already lost most of the vision in his left eye from a cataract, and his right eye was puffed and shut from Ali’s blows.

Eddie Futch, a renowned trainer working Frazier’s corner, asked the referee to end the bout. When it was stopped, Ali was ahead on the scorecards of the referee and two judges. “It’s the closest I’ve come to death,” Ali said.

Frazier returned to the ring nine months later, in June 1976, to face Foreman at Nassau Coliseum on Long Island. Foreman stopped him on a technical knockout in the fifth round. Frazier then announced his retirement. He was 32.

He later managed his eldest son, Marvis, a heavyweight. In December 1981 he returned to the ring to fight a journeyman named Jumbo Cummings, fought to a draw, then retired for good, tending to investments from his home in Philadelphia.

Both Frazier and Ali had daughters who took up boxing, and in June 2001 it was Ali-Frazier IV when Frazier’s daughter Jacqui Frazier-Lyde fought Ali’s daughter Laila Ali at a casino in Vernon, N.Y. Like their fathers in their first fight, both were unbeaten. Laila Ali won on a decision. Joe Frazier was in the crowd of 6,500, but Muhammad Ali, impaired by Parkinson’s syndrome, was not.

In addition to his son Marvis and his daughter Jacqui, Frazier is survived by his sons Hector, Joseph Rubin, Joseph Jordan, Brandon Marcus and Derek Dennis; his daughters Weatta, Jo-Netta, Renae and Natasha, and a sister. His marriage to his wife, Florence, ended in divorce.

Long after his fighting days were over, Frazier retained his enmity for Ali. But in March 2001, the 30th anniversary of the first Ali-Frazier bout, Ali told The New York Times: “I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn’t have said. Called him names I shouldn’t have called him. I apologize for that. I’m sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight.”

Asked for a response, Frazier said: “We have to embrace each other. It’s time to talk and get together. Life’s too short.”

Fascination with the Ali-Frazier saga has endured.

After a 2008 presidential debate between Barack Obama and John McCain, the Republican media consultant Stuart Stevens said that McCain should concentrate on selling himself to America rather than criticizing Obama. Stevens’s prescription: “More Ali and less Joe Frazier.”

Frazier’s true feelings toward Ali in his final years seemed murky.

The 2009 British documentary “Thrilla in Manila,” shown in the United States on HBO, depicted Frazier watching a film of the fight from his apartment above the gym he ran in Philadelphia.

“He’s a good-time guy,” John Dower, the director of “Thrilla in Manila,” told The Times. “But he’s angry about Ali.”

In March 2011, however, on the eve of the 40th anniversary of the first Ali-Frazier fight, Frazier said he was willing to put the enmity behind him.

“I forgave him for all the accusations he made over the years,” The Daily News quoted Frazier as saying. “I hope he’s doing fine. I’d love to see him.”

But as Frazier once told The Times: “Ali always said I would be nothing without him. But who would he have been without me?”

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