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Messages - JDN

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51
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 29, 2011, 07:46:29 AM »
Any death is tragic, but some are more understandable than others.

"Zerby, 35,  was in a seated position on Dec. 12, 2010, when he extended his arms while holding a gun-like object and pointed it at an officer, police said. He was shot in the torso with a shotgun and handgun and died at the scene."

As has been pointed out, if the Officer feared for his life (not knowing is was a toy pistol) I understand.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/09/activists-long-beach-police-killings.html


52
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 27, 2011, 10:14:39 AM »
I'm on my way out the door, but it was my understanding that public employees, police included, if while performing the duties of their job, are accused of inappropriate behavior, will usually be given a defense attorney paid for by the city?

Not true in Ramo's case?  Maybe not...  I'll check into later.  But, you may be right.  I hope you are right; I agree; there is no reason why the public should pay.

http://law.justia.com/cases/california/caapp4th/27/168.html

But then it's the Union (you know, Unions that everyone seems to hate here on this forum) that will pay for his defense.

Unlike the average citizen, Ramos isn't paying out of his pocket.

53
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 27, 2011, 08:14:04 AM »
Apparently the deceased in the Ramos case had a conviction for hitting his grandfather with a fire poker , , ,

So?  That was 17 years ago.  The Officers had no idea of that at the time they were busy beating Thomas to death aka the "deceased". 

Also, did you notice that the Judge did not reduce bail from $1,000.000.  I guess he too thinks the crime
is pretty bad and doesn't think much of Ramos.   :-o

I hope he's in general lockup (he's not at great cost to the county).  Why give him special treatment? 
And oh yeah, our tax dollars are paying big bucks for his high profile attorney.  More money...

What would you and I get if we were arrested for beating a guy to death and charged with 2nd Degree Murder?

54
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizens defend themselves/others.
« on: September 27, 2011, 07:50:55 AM »

55
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 25, 2011, 12:11:42 PM »
GM; I'm missing something here.  I conceded that in the heat of the moment, when the police officer is alone,
it's dark, probably there is no question the perp is a bad guy, if goes to his waist against direct instructions.....  "mistakes" will
be made, but UNDERSTANDABLE in my opinion.  I am NOT trying to second guess these types of shootings.  Frankly, I think, perhaps naively that the Officer himself after the fact will feel bad and regret his decision to shoot, however looking back he probably had no choice.  I UNDERSTAND....

What I do not understand is Ramos....  Read the facts.  He may well get off, statistics show the public is very reluctant to convict a police officer regardless of the facts, however IMHO Ramos is a bad apple.  He gives the whole force, who I truly respect, a bad name.  Sorry, but it's NOT understandable.  You and I might disagree on issues, but I have no doubt you are sincere; on duty, you are trying to do the right thing - to serve and protect; you a good cop. I'm surprised you are so vehemently defending him.

It's like the surgeon who makes  the wrong call and the patient dies.  Not good, but understandable.  But I knew a surgeon a few years ago who showed up drunk a lot and still did surgery.  His peers covered for him.  But I don't understand.  That's not a "mistake" that's criminal wrongdoing IMHO. 

There is a difference.

56
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 25, 2011, 10:25:32 AM »
And if the facts show that force was unreasonable, well.....

We don't know the facts yet, do we? A press release isn't a discovery file. You do not have any law enforcement experience or training and have nothing but press hype to go on.

Maybe "We" don't know all the facts, but "A team of six full-time OCDA Investigators and one Supervising Investigator has been assigned to this case. Approximately 12 additional OCDA Investigators, trained in custodial death investigations, provided assistance as needed" have seen/wrote the the discovery file.

It seems the DA based upon their report thought there were enough "facts" to indict for Murder 2.    :-D  Does that speak to you a little? 

And can you guess how many millions of tax payer's dollars will be paid out because of Ramos?  Bad apples belong in the garbage. 

57
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 25, 2011, 09:59:21 AM »
I'm still waiting for your point....   No one disagrees "that force must be reasonable".  Or that an "objective standard is based on fact."

And if the facts show that force was unreasonable, well.....

As for your Bauthues example, I'm also missing your point.  It looked like a home invasion situation; the law is different and gives greater leeway.  Still, Bauthues was arrested.  He spent a fortune on his criminal defense and/or time was donated, and in the end he pleaded out to a lessor crime.   And wait to hear what he will spend on his civil lawsuit defense; I bet he will lose and pay the big bucks therefore losing his home, savings, etc..   It doesn't sound like an outcome I would like.

As for Ramos,
The OCDA assumed the investigation into the death of Thomas on July 7, 2011. A team of six full-time OCDA Investigators and one Supervising Investigator has been assigned to this case. Approximately 12 additional OCDA Investigators, trained in custodial death investigations, provided assistance as needed. Senior Assistant District Attorney Jim Tanizaki, Assistant District Attorney Bruce Moore, and other senior OCDA managers provided legal analysis and direction in the investigation.

http://orangecountyda.com/home/index.asp?page=8&recordid=2581
 




58
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 25, 2011, 09:29:55 AM »
Interesting reading, but your point is?


59
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 25, 2011, 07:20:51 AM »
"Almost half the people shot at by Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies after reaching toward their waistbands turned out to be unarmed, according to a study released Thursday."


Basically they shot an unarmed man.  They weren't in immediate danger for their life.  If you and I did that, we would be on trial for murder. 

**The courts use the standard of what you reasonably believe at the moment in time when you make the decision to use force. This standard does apply to both LEOs and armed citizens. Say a badguy uses a replica handgun to carjack a citizen and the citizen instead/shoots/stabs/runs over the badguy. It's lawful if the citizen reasonably believes it was a deadly weapon as part of ability/opportunity/jeopardy.

That said, as GM has succinctly pointed out, being a police officer is NOT an easy job. Nor are these particular officers patrolling Beverly Hills.

Frankly, I think (GM can rightfully correct me; this is just my guess) the adrenalin and fear (police are human too) take over and sh#t happens..   Given that they
"thought" the bad guy was going for a gun, well.....  and if they truly were going for a gun.... better him than me...

**Again, it's a matter of "reasonableness" based on the officer's perceptions and the totality of the circumstances. The article points out how the majority of the shootings are by deputies with 3 or less years on the job. From memory, the majority of officers killed by suspects typically have 5 or more years on the job. So, after 5 years, the lessons from the academy fade and complacency develops. Complacency kills.

"a standard of what you believe is reasonable".  Yes, if a bad guy pulled out a toy gun and I couldn't tell the difference, and therefore reasonably believed my life was in danger, I have a pretty good defense.  But in most of the instances, they didn't pull out a toy gun, they merely went to their waist, pulling out nothing except maybe their d$%^.  I think in most states if I shot a unarmed man who had not hit or attacked me, and my defense was, well, "he was going for his waist" I would be locked up as a private citizen for a long time....  Police get off, and maybe rightfully so.

As for killed on the job, of course "the majority of officers killed by suspects typically have 5 or more years on the job." the average LAPD Officer has 12 years on the job.  There are more officers by far with over 5 years, therefore more of them will die.  I"m not sure it can be proven that it has a lot to do with complacency.

As for Ramos, his actions were so egregious in my opinion that he should be locked up for a long time.  Did you read what he did?  So I say, Take away his gun, his stick, and blue uniform and put him in a common room with other criminals.  Then let's see how tough he is.  He deserves whatever he gets.  And it probably won't be much; in the end, it's rare that a police officer is convicted of a crime.  Too bad.

I've gone on ride alongs before.  Most, by far the majority of police do an outstanding job.  But there are a few bad apples that need to be culled out.  Everyone is better off.

60
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 24, 2011, 07:49:14 AM »
Yeah, and I can run the 100 meter dash in 9.6 seconds too.  Yes, it has been done, but......

Although I have always been impressed with those fast draw competitions (I've gone to watch a couple of times), it's not as easy as it looks.  Nor is running a sub 10.0 100 meter dash.

Further, what's impressive is the ability to draw fast AND hit the target.

The troubling thing in the article was;

"Almost half the people shot at by Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies after reaching toward their waistbands turned out to be unarmed, according to a study released Thursday."


Basically they shot an unarmed man.  They weren't in immediate danger for their life.  If you and I did that, we would be on trial for murder. 

That said, as GM has succinctly pointed out, being a police officer is NOT an easy job. Nor are these particular officers patrolling Beverly Hills.

Frankly, I think (GM can rightfully correct me; this is just my guess) the adrenalin and fear (police are human too) take over and sh#t happens..   Given that they
"thought" the bad guy was going for a gun, well.....  and if they truly were going for a gun.... better him than me...

To make another point;

"More than half of off-duty shootings involved deputies with less than three years on the job."

I think experience, in that split second, enables you to make the right choice.  But it's not easy.

More training?  More???  No one wants to kill an "innocent" man. 

Frankly, as a generalization, without knowing the details, IMHO these shootings, while truly unfortunate and sad, are understandable.  The Officer did in fact, albeit incorrectly, fear for his life.

My problem with the Thomas situation is that he had no weapon.  Officer Ramos didn't even think it was necessary to pat him down.  Instead, with other Officers nearly,
Officer Ramos "put on Latex gloves",
And then, Officer Ramos said clearly, ""Now see my fists? They're getting ready to 'F' you up."

Somehow that's not right in my book.


61
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 21, 2011, 10:42:05 PM »
Let's see how "warrior" Ramos does in Prison without his friends, his blue uniform, his stick, and his gun.

2nd Degree MURDER.   The coroner even says "HOMICIDE". 

I bet you are a good cop GM.  How can you defend that....

And unlike the average citizen, Ramos will get a first class EXPENSIVE defense, not some overworked public defender with no budget. 

All paid for by us the taxpayer....



62
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 21, 2011, 09:34:12 PM »
Beat up, with fellow officers helping, hog tied, and killed a homeless man.

Sounds like Officer Ramos is a real class act.   Wow he doesn't cower does he?  Maybe the blue helps?  And the other Officers?  And the gun?  Yep, Officer Ramos is pretty brave.
Let's see how brave he is in jail?  And prison if he is convicted.

And unlike any other private citizen, Officer Ramos will be given a first class defense; not some overworked public defender.  All at the Tax Payer's Expense.  I thought we were trying to cut back?
Maybe Officer Ramos should pay for his own defense like everyone else?

Then again, you are right; I'ld probably cower at a safe distance if Officer Ramos was around.  "To Protect and To Serve"    Kinda scary   :?

The District Attorney found Officer Ramos crime so bad (and I'm sure he IS privy to the investigation) that he charged Officer Ramos with 2nd Degree MURDER. 

The Orange County coroner listed the manner of death as a homicide and the cause of death to be "anoxic encephalopathy with acute bronchopneumonia," asphyxia caused by "mechanical chest compression with blunt cranial-facial injuries during physical altercation with law enforcement," prosecutors said.

Pretty serious huh?  WAY beyond "friends at the end of the day". 

63
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 21, 2011, 09:00:07 PM »
Ahhh I  think in the same article you posted it said....

"Surveillance video taken on an Orange County Transportation Authority bus showed passengers describing the alleged assault.

"They beat him up and then all the cops came and they hogtied him and he was like, 'Please God, Please Dad!'" said one witness."

And....

"Where were his rights? Listen to my son beg those officers, 'Please, please, God, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.' And the last words of his life, 'Dad! Dad!' I want you to hear that for the rest of your life like I will."

Police are NOT above the law...

Obviously the District Attorney agrees.  Officer Ramos is charged with 2nd Degree Murder.  If convicted, Officer Ramos will serve 15 years to LIFE in Prison.

Sounds pretty serious to me...

64
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 21, 2011, 08:27:43 PM »
GM said, "Yes, you had your opinion based on nothing."

Hmmm the District Attorney seems to disagree....   :?
"The actions of Ramos "were reckless and created a high risk of death and great bodily injury," District Attorney Tony Rackauckas told reporters."

So did the Judge who set bail at $1,000.000 dollars!   :-o

"Ramos was being held Wednesday after Orange County Superior Court Judge Erick L. Larsh set his bail at $1 million."



65
Martial Arts Topics / Fullerton Police
« on: September 21, 2011, 06:57:58 PM »
I thought I posted something about this subject before, but I can't find it.  It seems I'm not the only one who thinks the Police stepped out of line.

"Ramos faces a maximum sentence of 15 years to life if convicted, authorities said. Cicinelli, who is 39 years old and a 12-year Fullerton police veteran, faces a maximum of four years in prison if convicted."

http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/21/justice/california-homeless-death/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

66
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizens defend themselves/others.
« on: September 14, 2011, 02:08:59 PM »
"A man's attempt to stop an assault on a San Bernardino street led to a shooting that killed a 3-year-old girl and left a pregnant mother and her young daughter in critical condition, police said Tuesday."

"Officers urged the woman who was being beaten by the shooting suspect to contact police.
She has not reported the crime"


So one innocent 3 year old dead, two more in critical condition.  And the woman who was assaulted won't even report the assault or
identify the shooter.    :-(

Gee, I bet that Good Samaritan is happy he got involved....    :-(
And so is the dead little girl and two others critically injured.   :-( :-( :-(

We've had this discussion before on this forum, this is just another example of why it's better not to get involved unless
you or your immediate family are directly threatened.  Just call 911. 

http://www.pe.com/localnews/stories/PE_News_Local_D_webshootings14.150009f.html


67
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Knife for Self Defense
« on: August 14, 2011, 02:16:58 PM »
 :-D
All thing are relative.  My odds, albeit slim, are better with an impact weapon than no weapon at all.  However, if confronted with "the hulking veteran of San Quentin", I'll probably open the knife and take my chances with the Police/DA.  Obviously, I feared for my life!   :-)

If the kubaton ends up in me  :-D or merely his fist ends up in me doesn't make a whole lot of difference.  Either way I'm not happy.   :-o

But in summary, I take you are are saying that a folding knife, unopened, would be considered an "impact weapon" and therefore not necessarily a "lethal weapon" as would be a fixed blade or folding knife with the blade out.

68
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Knife for Self Defense
« on: August 14, 2011, 12:58:20 PM »
It's not so much "pain compliance" as just pain.   I want him to go away, not come with me.   :-D

You might not be impressed with my punch to your jaw, but I assure you that you will be "impressed" if I use blunt force metal kubaton to your jaw or side of your head.  Strikes with a metal kubaton to joints, bones, etc. can be quite effective.

My question is the legal ramification thereof.  I know an open knife is using "lethal force" and I need to be aware of that before doing so, however if I use a Kubaton, is that considered "lethal force" or merely the same as using a cane, an available chair, etc.?

69
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Knife for Self Defense
« on: August 14, 2011, 12:33:43 PM »
GM; thank you for your input.

While I have always enjoyed the old Zorro movies, I too am a bit cynical of "defanging the snake" in the heat of the moment.

You said, "The knife is a deadly force tool. It shouldn't be used in non-deadly force scenarios.".

Are you saying that you don't like/wouldn't use a closed folded knife as a blunt instrument, as a kubaton, to help even the odds against for example a younger, stronger, but unarmed assailant?  If one is concerned about legal ramifications, (I am) I would think that a kubaton would be a more acceptable weapon, like a cane (which while effective I am reluctant to carry), being that it is "non lethal" would be a more acceptable "weapon" in the eyes of the police or a DA than an open knife.  Or do you disagree?




70
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Knife for Self Defense
« on: August 14, 2011, 09:15:17 AM »
In a way I understand your point, but then.....  Do I go directly for him? Neck, throat, heart, etc.  Or should I focus and debilitate/cut the gun arm/hand?  In knife against knife, or sword versus sword, a common tactic is to attack the weapon hand, thereby eliminating the potential lethal threat first allowing time for further action if necessary.  Further, knife wounds, while they can be fatal are rarely fatal immediately; time exists for the bad guy to draw his gun.  I'm guessing an average person can draw in 2-3 seconds.  Plenty of time for a double tap that would be fatal to me; perhaps he dies later of blood loss, etc. but that doesn't help me.

71
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Knife for Self Defense
« on: August 14, 2011, 08:50:05 AM »
Yes, I've hard the expression, "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight".

That said, in the City of Los Angeles, it's near impossible to get a CCW.  For that matter, California in general is rather restrictive.  As a side note,
I've always found it rather odd that CCW's are issued by local authorities, rather I think it makes sense for the State to issue them since the CCW is
valid State wide.

Anyway, back to topic.

California knife laws in general are quite reasonable.  I always carry a sturdy folding knife (Large Sebenza; blade length 3.6").  My theory being that I can use it as a Kubaton unopened giving me an advantage in a fight, and if matters escalate and I fear for my life, I have the blade.  I do train on a weekly basis; it's never enough, but I am comfortable with the knife.

However, as has been pointed out elsewhere on this forum, the bad guys have no hesitation about carrying a gun without a CCW.  Therefore, does anyone know of any books, DVD's, etc. that address the issue of knife versus gun from the knife perspective?  Odd, I've found a lot of material from the gun perspective; i.e. giving space, triangleing, etc. but almost nothing from the perspective of one carrying a knife versus a gun. 

usually we train knife versus knife.  It's fun and all training is beneficial of course, but frankly not very realistic; knife against knife fights are very rare.  Odds are that when I open and use a knife, it will be because my opponent has a gun or that they are unarmed, but there are 2-3 of them and they are younger, bigger, and stronger, therefore I fear for my life.

Anyway, any suggestions for training resources would be greatly appreciated.





72
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 04:36:45 PM »
Odd, that one won't open either.  Gotta go, but I'll try again later.

73
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 04:28:14 PM »
I understand, that is why I'm trying to compare LA to London.  I think they share many similarities; size, diverse population, rich and poor areas, numerous immigrants, etc.

I am not comparing Cambridge to LA or some idillic town in America to London.

ps I couldn't open your link

74
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 04:08:56 PM »
Sure, although Santa Monica is a rather odd place.
http://projects.latimes.com/homicide/neighborhood/santa-monica/

Then again there is a disparity in sections of London.  Or Iraq.

75
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 04:03:19 PM »

And what are the circumstances of those homicides in LA county? Are they distributed on an even basis across the county, or are they clusted in certain geographical areas and associated with certain behaviors?

As for the circumstances of each homicide, I have no idea.  Frankly, I doubt if they are distributed evenly across the county.  Probably like Iraq, they are clustered in certain geographical areas and associated with certain behaviors.  Probably anti social behaviors if I had to guess.   :-D

76
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 03:49:50 PM »
I read it; does that change the homicide statistics?  No.
As previously quoted, homicides are three times worse in America versus the UK.  Mostly with guns.

Mugging and being robbed, albeit not pleasant is NOT the same as homicide. 

We are talking deaths here, not your wallet or TV gone missing.  Or a bar room fight because I made eyes at your girlfriend.

Since the war began in Iraq, I bet more people have died in LA County by gunshot wounds than the number of American soldier's by
combat wounds in Iraq.

It's really quite deplorable. 

77
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 03:24:27 PM »
You must be kidding?   :?

You take a ten year old article, saying violent crime, i.e. muggings and robberies are possibly higher in the UK and compare that the homicides in America?  That's like comparing apples and oranges.

Let me repeat in case you missed the statistics.  On a per capita basis, there were three times more homicides, that's deaths, not muggings, or robberies,
in the USA versus UK.  Most of the homicides in America were committed with a gun.  And I bet in America's large cities, if you want to focus and compare London to America's large cities, NY, Chicago, LA, Miami, Detroit, etc. the number of homicides per capita is even worse in America, again, mostly committed with a gun. 

No one likes to be mugged and have their wallet taken.  Or robbed and have their jewels or TV stolen, but homicide means you are dead.  There is a difference,
like an apple and an orange are different.   :-D

78
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 01:37:09 PM »
Glad to see Point Dog contributing to the conversation.

It is great to hear a different perspective.  Point Dog, I hope you contribute more often.

79
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 01:34:53 PM »

How's those "knife crimes" working out in the UK?

Knife crimes in the UK are working out a lot better than America's gun crimes!    The homicide rate in America, the majority due to firearms, is simply staggering.

Did you read the link I posted from UCLA?  3+ die EVERY DAY in LA due to firearms.  Not wounded, not cut, but DIE.

Overall, the homicide rate is 5 times worse in America than England.  More so probably in Los Angeles and other large metropolitan areas.

http://fleshisgrass.wordpress.com/2007/04/17/us-and-uk-murder-rate-and-weapon/


80
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 10:24:52 AM »

Woof Point Dog,
 I'm sure the 4 dead so far will be eternally grateful for that. :-P

4 dead, from only two incidents, In L.A that would probably be called a weekend rather than a riot :lol:  No reports of looters using firearms either, so swings and roundabouts. There was a guy shot and killed in london but apparently not related to the disorder.


 :-D :-D :-D
4 Dead in L.A. this week?  That IS a good week.  The average is 3 dead EVERYDAY with firearms.
http://www.ph.ucla.edu/sciprc/pdf/FIREARMS.pdf

81
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 09:05:19 AM »
Not that it matters a whole lot in our coming election, but Obama is quite popular in Europe.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/26/opinion/la-oe-mcmanus-obama-europe-20110626

82
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 08:21:58 AM »

There is no such thing as a "Barrett 50mm rifle", JDN. There are Barrett rifles chambered for .50 caliber BMG.

Some people are not content to hide under their beds when there is a threat.


Who cares?  I don't own one and never will.  You got my point. 

And if there is a "threat" to me or my family, I have no problem using lethal force.  However, different than you, I do have a problem
shooting and killing someone who is no immediate threat to me or anyone else for merely taking property.

IMHO that person is a murderer and deserves a "bed" in jail for a long time in my opinion.  They can sleep on it or sleep under it.

83
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 08:12:39 AM »
The way I read this statue, a neighborhood kid could come on to your property at night, steal your bicycle (theft during the nighttime)  and you could shoot him in the back as he pedaled (fleeing away) away to stop him from escaping with your property.

I'm not sure I would call that an "enlightened" law. 

84
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 07:14:58 AM »
Well put; thank you Point Dog.

85
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 12, 2011, 02:24:40 PM »
Woof JDN,
 If you were in a building and someone set it on fire would you consider your life endangered? BTW four people were shot by store owers in the LA riots.
 



My life might be in danger if the building I was in was on fire, but that still does not necessarily give me the right to shoot the guy who set the fire after the fact especially if I have another way to retreat.  Nor does it give me the right to shoot him if he has already left and is walking down the street with my inventory.

As for the four people shot by store owners, I couldn't find a definitive source.  Is it confirmed or merely speculated that four were shot by store owners?  Further, circumstances of each death are important.

If I'm in the store and you come in with a gun or knife, threatening me, I have every right to defend myself and shoot you. 

I do not have the right to shoot someone for merely start carrying out (stealing) inventory. 

However, my main point in this discussion is that you absolutely do not have the right to sit up on your roof and play sniper, shooting anyone carrying
a refrigerator or TV set.  You will go to jail for a very long time.

86
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 12, 2011, 01:21:58 PM »
Great photo, looks cool, but to my knowledge not one looter was shot and killed from this or any other rooftop.

If they had, and only their property was at stake, i.e. no direct threat to them since they are on the rooftop, they would be arrested and probably
sent to prison for a long time.

Sorry, my movie comment stands; you can't sit on the rooftop with your Barrett 50mm rifle and pick off looters who are carrying away your store's TV or refrigerators.  You can't kill people for "denying you the means by which you support your family".  Unless you or another human being's life is directly threatened, that's murder and you will go to jail far far longer than any looter who stole your inventory.

I suggest you consider the consequences before you start shooting.

Stay home and buy good insurance.

87
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 12, 2011, 12:27:24 PM »
I think you have watched too many movies.   :-)

88
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 12, 2011, 09:10:14 AM »
GM is right; even self defense laws in the UK are rather draconian.

That said, legislation is now being considered that a person can use "reasonable force" to defend their property as well.

The key, still undecided is what is "reasonable force". 

89
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Security, Surveillance issues
« on: August 03, 2011, 08:48:17 AM »
No doubt you are right.

But as it becomes more common, I was concerned about the inappropriate/illegal usage.  Will people track their wife?  Their girlfriend? Business contacts?
It seems like a form of stalking.

90
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Security, Surveillance issues
« on: August 03, 2011, 08:35:08 AM »

91
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: June 11, 2011, 03:31:31 PM »
I don't know your state. 

But I wouldn't ride along at UCLA because I would be bored to death although the girls on the UCLA campus are cute.  Or is that what you meant by balls?  :-)

Did you read the link?  Campus police have no authority off campus. If they are off duty they also have no authority. What does that say the State thinks of them?  Many don't carry a gun. Their training and experience isn't close to LAPD's except party patrol, petty theft, traffic and tickets. I know a few. Not too bright.  They are cop wanna be's or burnt out and want an easy job. The schools here in LA's tough neighborboods subcontract with the county Sheriff's dept. Those campus's have real crime and they want professionals on campus. A  badge doesn't make you a professional. Training and experience do. General Campus cops are NOT equal to LAPD. You should know better.

Enough. This conversation like being a campus cop is getting boring. 

92
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: June 11, 2011, 06:53:22 AM »
I'm sorry to read that some have died in the line of duty.  I never said they did not serve without distinction.  I'm sure mall cops too have died while on duty as well as guards working for Brinks, or banks, etc.  I am sympathetic.  But that doesn't mean they are equal to the LAPD in training or experience.

What I said, was depending upon the campus and the individual is that most of them are "wanna be cops".  Whose "primary function seems to be to break up fraternity parties."  On average, it's an easy job versus being a cop on the beat - that's why even some cops take the job.  Campus police don't have the same initial training, ongoing training, nor day by day experience as LAPD especially with violent crime.  Nor do they have the same authority as regular cops. They patrol the campus, direct the traffic, give out tickets, break up a party or fight, that's basically about it.  For serious crime, the nearby police force is nearly always called in to supervise.

"Court: Campus police can't just arrest people off campus without some connection to the school
The Supreme Judicial Court today threw out drug-related evidence seized by BU police on an I-93 entrance ramp from a man they had no reason to believe had anything to do with BU."

http://www.universalhub.com/2010/court-campus-police-cant-just-arrest-people-campus

93
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: June 10, 2011, 09:36:22 AM »
Thank you for the link; your previous link said 25.  Odd, they are authorized to have 25 officers so
they must think 13 commissioned police officers plus 4 security officers; total 17 is enough?

That said, I'ld still take your bet - you said only 1 or 2 officers on duty...   :-)

So on most days maybe even everyday, IF not three officers there will be two officers on duty.  However, I think
you are missing the point, although you did reference the issue of an officer not being in contact.

IF he had said, "I'm leaving, officer down" I bet he never would have been fired.  The campus
could have adjusted to cover his area.  They would know that they were one officer short, one area unprotected. Further,
I am sure they were concerned when they tried to contact him and he did not respond.

You are right, unlike you I am not a police officer.  You know better than I, but is it really difficult
to simply call in and say something like "I'm leaving right now in response to officer down nearby"?
And then a little later to call in and give an update?  I would think training emphasizes communication.
And your first duty is to protect the students and employees.  That is why you were hired and paid a salary.

Instead he just left.  Further, for one hour he never even called in or responded to say he was gone.  IF the shooter
had attacked on the campus, in his assigned area, no one would be there to protect the students or employees.
And the Chief couldn't have done anything about it since he didn't know his officer had just got up and left that
area unprotected.

I can't imagine a situation, i.e. shooter on or near campus, that would put more fear in administrator's hearts.
Or the parents of students.  As bigdog also pointed out, he needed to focus and protect his protectorate first. 

He was working for Rice University, a private employer.  He was hired by Rice to protect the students and employees.
He failed in his duties by exposing the students and the employees to danger.

94
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: June 10, 2011, 08:33:17 AM »

Patrol
The Rice University Police Department patrol division consists of three shifts; the day shift, which runs from 6:00 AM – 2:00 PM, the evening shift from 2:00 PM – 10:00 PM, and the night shift on duty from 10:00 PM – 6:00 AM.  Thirteen commissioned police officers and four non-commissioned security officers staff these three shifts, providing for the safety and security of the university community on a twenty-four basis.

**Ok JDN, take 13 officers and cover 3 shifts keeping in mind sick leave, training, vacation, comp time, court testimony, light duty for injury, FMLA and regular days off and tell me how many officers you have on duty at any given time.

Is this a trick question?    :?  Maybe I'm missing something here, but why would I want to only "take 13 officers" when I have 25 Officers and 4 security guards that I could use?   :-o

"The department is staffed by 25 licensed and commissioned police officers, 4 security guards, 5 dispatchers, 2 ticket writers, and 4 support personnel. "

Further, exacerbating the problem he went rogue without even telling anyone and continued to be rogue for an hour leaving the campus vulnerable.  If he has simply called
in, the campus could have adjusted patrols to cover his area and protected the students and staff.

95
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: June 10, 2011, 07:21:55 AM »

 I'm willing to bet that because of the various scheduling issues that law enforcement tends to face, there are times the campus only has one or two officers on duty at a time on other days.


I would take that bet.  The department has 25 police officers on staff.  If one officer is sick, out for the day, whatever, they will just reassign.  More important, IF one of the three
need to leave the campus HG can either reassign officers and/or increase the patrol area.  The dereliction of duty to justify firing was not leaving the campus in my opinion to aid
another officer, but leaving campus without notifying anyone leaving a gaping hole in the school defense.  And then not even reporting in for another hour. 
There is a shooting near the school; that is a VERY big deal to the school, the students, their parents, the employees, etc.  I agree with Bigdog's comment, but I would add
not even knowing you were a man short at the time is worse.

Let me say, however, that you can reverse your earlier question.  How do you, as a Rice administrator, explain a campus shooter and being a man short at the time?


96
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: June 09, 2011, 07:50:04 AM »
Good grief; they are wanna be cops.  Their primary function it seems is to break up fraternity parties.

But that is not the point.  I don't care if he was a former SWAT or SEAL. 

He abandoned his post without authorization, he left the campus community, endangering students, employees, and the campus.  Further, against direct orders, he never contacted his superiors for
over one hour, and exposed the school to significant liability.  He was appropriately fired for dereliction of duty.  Nearly all private employers would do the same.

97
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: June 08, 2011, 07:39:41 PM »
Since you know so much about law enforcement, JDN, why don't you explain how mutual aid agreements work between campus police agencies and other law enforcement agencies.

I think you have me confused with someone else; I never dreamt of being a policeman.   :-)

That said, common sense says, that "mutual aid agreements" are agreed to at top management level.  If called upon and mutually agreed upon by those in authority, they coordinate activities.  The key in this case (and most cases involving a private employer), is there is no excuse; he did not have authorization and he put his campus at risk.  This is a campus police officer, who leaves his post on the school, goes off campus, without permission from anyone in authority at his school and does not contact his employer for an hour after he has left.   :-o  I think he is simply rogue, albeit with good intentions, but he deserved to get fired.  Obviously Rice University agreed with me.   :-D

98
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: June 08, 2011, 04:18:23 PM »
I understand you point(s).   :-)  I too always had issues with authorities; that's why I quit the corporate world.

But addressing your "serious" points, you are a businessman.  To protect yourself you incorporated.  Further, you
require waivers of all fighters.  You try to limit your liability.  Of course. 

These corporations/schools are merely doing the same.  Morally, I probably agree with you, I understand, but practically,
in today's litigious society, the entities need to protect themselves first.  First, he left the school without permission and unguarded
or at least, his help on campus may have been needed.  Further, the school is liable for any actions he takes; let's say
he shoots an innocent bystander, or perhaps he gets shot.  The school again would be liable.

Better to let the qualified and well trained real police, not campus police solve the problem.

If you are the School Chief of Police, or President of a Corporation, why expose yourself to this liability?  Your first duty
is to your school, corporation, etc.

99
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: June 08, 2011, 03:37:26 PM »
Well, I guess if you admitted you couldn't/wouldn't follow company policy, I wouldn't hire you either.
Then again, I bet a lot of companies wouldn't hire you for exactly the same reason.

No wonder you work for yourself!   :-)

100
Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: June 08, 2011, 10:08:26 AM »
Yes, let's try again.  I do not question that they the same authority and power as any other police agency within the State of Texas. 

Here in Los Angeles, UCLA's campus police have the same authority and power as any other police agency within the State of CA.

So?

That doesn't mean they have the same training.  Or the same experience.  Or the same responsibilities.  As a Houston Public
Police Officer.  Or the LAPD.

As employees of Rice University, they are campus police officers whose duty is to protect "the campus".
Not to mention, as an employee of the University to follow the University's rules while on duty.


Back to my point, the point; he probably should have been fired.

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