Dog Brothers Public Forum

There is this idea of stages of development that has been touched on in another thread.   People seem to go through these or similar stages regardless of the discipline.   The stages might be characterized something like this:

1.  Initial grasp of fundamentals  as a whole  (I get it!  I may not be able to do it but at least I get that it exists, BASICS)
2.  Young male hierarchical ritual combat stage (I want to test myself against reality and against others. Could be easy to rile up)
3.  Self-control (I am finding that straining all my muscles is rather inefficient.  I want to calm down and figure things out more. Calmness)
4.  Leader (I am caring more about my group.  I want to support others.  I have a broader sense of things in both time and space. Practice is still pretty dynamic but even more controlled and relaxed)
5.  Wise olde guye (I am thinking about spiritual connections more and more.  Relaxation, fluidity, alignment, smoothness, hard to rile up. Generally laid back)

I guess that we are all somewhere along a continuum of these stages. We may go up and down through them but generally the older you get they more...opportunity you have to delve into the higher stages.  Though perhaps the opportunities are born mostly of necessity!

With regard to how this plays out physically, I think that there is a period in your life where you can strain or push yourself in certain ways as a result of being young.  How you are moving isn't exactly efficient...lots of muscles working at cross purposes et cetera...but it sure keeps you looking fit.   

In the long term though, your eyeballs start to bug out if you continue to practice that way.  You start feeling the stress of that type of muscular exertion.  Its what I think Tai chi writings refer to as "Li".   If you rely on LI  and not "jing"  (internal energy/relaxation sort of things) then you can cause yourself problems long term.

So as I get older I am really trying to study this. 

For example, I am weight training.  But I proceeding with weight training differently than I might have when I was younger.  I am focusing on strength and power as many martial arts oriented fitness folks recommend.  But I am also trying to maintain flexibility and relaxation ...calmness to what I am doing.  I like the idea of maintaining nimbleness as I age.   I am sure that if younger guys were to try to do this as well it would be good for them.  But the older you get the more you HAVE to change.  The alternative is to bust yourself up and get crippled.

Hi All,

First off,  I wanted to belatedly say that I went to the gathering as a spectator in June.  It was a cool experience to watch it and I enjoyed seeing the camaraderie as well as the battles.  Thanks Fighters for that.   As I watched I paid attention to the several older fighters there. 

Secondly, I watched Randy Couture face Gonzaga over the weekend.  This fight was particularly interesting to me because of Couture's age.  I think that there is a thread about MMA to more fully discuss that fight so I will only mention it here because iit may serve as discussion material for this topic.

I am interested in discussing what it is like to practice as we get older.  I am 54 years old.   I have been practicing a variety of things since I was in my 20s.  When I started practicing the oldest senior person that I knew was in his 40s.  In some places in the world where people live in close proximity to their seniors their whole lives there is perhaps a continuum from old to young.  This exists now in North America, but as martial arts migrated here I think the first people that began practicing here have not had as many older people to learn how to practice as we get older.

So to start this thread off, what do you think changes with age?  How does the experience of practicing change? 

Another question that I think will be interesting to pursue is: How do you think you should practice as you get older?  What should you emphasize?  What is important to you now compared to when you were younger? 

What matters when you become an older warrior?

Karsk

A recent bit of research on Tai Chi appeared in MSN.com.  Here is an exerpt from a related site ( http://www.anitavestal.net/taichi.htm )

Quote


UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute September, 2003 Mind over Matter: Tai Chi Class Boosts Shingles Immunity, Improves Physical Functioning in Older Adults

UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute researchers report that older adults in a 15-week Tai Chi class saw immunity factors that suppress shingles soar 50 percent. In addition, participants showed significant improvement in their physical health and ability to move through their day.

Appearing in the September edition of the journal Psychosomatic Medicine, findings of the randomized, controlled clinical trial are the first to demonstrate a positive, virus-specific immune response to a behavioral intervention.

“Our findings offer a unique and exciting example of mind over matter,” said Dr. Michael R. Irwin, a professor at the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute and director of the Institute’s Cousin’s Center for Psychoneuroimmunology. “A large body of research shows how behavior can negatively affect the immune system and health, but ours is the first randomized, controlled study to demonstrate that behavior can have a positive effect on immunity that protects against shingles. The findings are particular noteworthy as Tai Chi Chih or “meditation with movement” increased immunity in older adults who are at risk for herpes zoster.

“The improvements in both immunity and physical functioning were significant by widely accepted measures of each, and all with no surgery, no drugs and no side effects,” Irwin said. “We were particularly struck by improvements in what subjects were able to accomplish physically as a result of participating in these classes. In fact, older adults who had more impairment present at the start of the study showed the greatest improvement and benefit at the end.”

The varicella zoster virus, or shingles, can cause a painful skin rash with intermittent pain that can last for months or years. Even when the rash subsides, skin in the affected area can remain extremely painful to the touch.

The virus lurks in the nerves of virtually everyone who has had chicken pox, but the immune system typically prevents outbreaks. This cell-mediated immunity to the virus declines with age, however, leaving older adults particularly susceptible to the painful condition. The greater the decline, the greater the risk. No vaccination against shingles exists.

The study randomly assigned 36 men and women age 60 or older to a 15-week program of three 45-minute Tai Chi classes a week or to a wait list. To qualify, each volunteer had to show immunity to varicella zoster virus, but not to have had a history of shingles. They also had to be able to walk. Three class members dropped out before the study ended due to transportation issues. One member of the control group dropped out.

Varicella zoster virus-specific cell-mediated immunity was measured before the program began and one week after the program ended. Doctors used the Medical Outcome scale to assess physical functioning before the program began; at five, 10 and 15 weeks during the program; and one week after the program ended.

The study was funded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, a unit of the National Institutes of Health.

Co-authors of the study were Jennifer L. Pike and Jason C. Cole of the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute and Department of Medicine at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA, and Dr. Michael N. Oxman of the University of California at San Diego and the San Diego Veterans Affairs Healthcare System.

The UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute is an interdisciplinary research and education institute devoted to the understanding of complex human behavior, including the genetic, biological, behavioral and sociocultural underpinnings of normal behavior, and the causes and consequences of neuropsychiatric disorders.

End Quote


In Tai Chi writings, there is often a discussion of the difference between "Jing" and "Li"  I forget which is which...but...one is referring to muscular development, intensity, straining, youthful vigor  and the other is associated with relaxation, vital energy, calmness, and softness....

Generally, the first is considered to be not so good for your health and the latter is preferred. 

This is of interest to me as I get older.  On the one hand I want to maintain muscle mass and strong tendons and ligaments. On the other hand I want to avoid straining and to move economically and more cleverly.  I am interested in investigating whether these two goals/approaches  conflict with one another or if there is a way to do both.

I think this relates to the yoga discussion because I think that yoga tends to promote the latter approach to fitness.

I think that this conversation is also related to "internal" vs external"  and physical vs spiritual ways of looking at things.  Often these concepts are presented as a duality...in dynamic opposition to one another...but how does this work in pragmatic fitness maintenance?

Karsk

Hi Maija,

The training shown on that video looks very much like what we call free one-attack.  It IS different but the energy flow is very similar.  In free one- attack both people are mobile and enter and exit in and out, a poem about it goes "the ma requires advancing, retreating separating and meeting".  In that practice, the attacker uses a specified but uncontrolled attack and the defender controls the counter but then is able to immediately respond with an attack of their own.

In terms of the comment you made in the last scenario.  You are right about your chances being far greater at having the initiative if you are more trained but perhaps your opponent is of equal or greater skill than you. Or they are less skilled but you have a migraine.   If the fellow is big and nasty and don't care if they are hurt sometimes the sheer ferocity of the attack is enough to bowl you over.  In any case, there may be veils between you and your opponent and you may think you are in charge but you may not be.   In this way, I think that the initiative has to be resolved.

Thanks for the really interesting discussions everyone!

Karsk

The image of facing someone nose to nose and having them say "Do something" prompted me to share today.

There are 6 kinds of sparring exercises that my organization uses:  one attack, 3 attack, free one attack, free sparring, long distance sparring, and short range sparring.   I do other types of exercises  but I thought I would share what the organization does just for context.  They pertain to studies of range and ma. I will just talk about two of these in the interests of brevity.

In all but free sparring and long distance sparring the attacks are not supposed to be restrained.  Counter attacks on the other hand are restrained.  By restrained, I mean to hold back and not make contact.  Presumable if you do your job setting the guy up as a defender and then hit him hard it will minimize the number of times he will want to repeat the experience. 

These drills have other constraints.  You agree before hand on the nature of the attack.  It can actually be anything.  The attack is usually one technique though it can be more. Typically the attacks are linear punches aimed at a specific target but they don't have to be. 

In "one attack" you face your opponent at "the inside edge of the ma".  That means that you are pressing your opponent a bit with your feeling. They stand naturally. Then you attack and they defend.

Problems:

Anyone who has ever set foot in a basic karate class has seen something that looks like this.  There are lots of ways to do this type of exercise really poorly.  For example you can do it by numbers and not really try to hit.  If you do that you eliminate what vestige of reality exists in these drills.  The more beneficial way is to have minimal constraints on the attack.  The attacker really try to get you and get you hard.  That wakes things up a bit but its still  extremely controlled as an exercise.   You can create scenarios based on this idea of one attack and learn how to respond to different things.  Like most drills people get programmed to behavior that is extremely stylized.  Thats not good.

But If you take the exercise seriously and try to make the attack work it creates a laboratory to test out things. For one thing you have to abide by the idea that "what matters is what works".  So you may start out with a stylized idea of a technique and then it just doesn't work and you have to change it until it does then you have to consider what you learned relative to the constraints of the exercise compared to reality and so on.  You can maybe find out the real point of a technique that way. You can adapt the broad approach to what you are trying to study.

The energy of these exercises is focused on testing one another.  They exist to give people insights about technique and psychological aspects.


Short range sparring. 

To discuss this type of exercise is really the reason for my post.  Short range happens inside the bubble.  It is initiated with both people standing at a range where the opponent would barely miss an idle swing at the eyes with outstretched fingers. So close but not in the range where things are boiling.  In this type of sparring the attacker hits with a designated unrestrained attack. Designated means that you know in general where the attack is coming from and usually but not always its agreed to be a punch or strike of some kind.  There are still lots of constraints but you can really try to clobber the opponent.  When done well there are a lot of psychological considerations to study and there is incentive to learn to respond better at closer ranges.

This type of sparring is where I stepped off into tippy tappy drills.  I think the range of the "tippy tappy" drills that I picked up  is closer yet and it was really useful for developing fluidity and diversity of responses once the distance is entered.  Rather than arbitrarily stopping as most of the sparring exercises I have described do, tippy tappy drills create a continuum of movement that helps things to spontaneously occur.   

Its there that the blending that I alluded to earlier in these and similar drills seem to fit.

P.S.  I just reviewed some things that I have on Bukti negara and there seems to be some similarities to the drills and exercises that they use to what I am familiar with.  What I called "free one attack"  sounds like Sambutan at least in intent.
 

Karsk

I only know it as Lions vs Hyenas.   Will do on the moving the post.

Karsk

Cool stuff.

This is illustrating the point that the concepts and values transcend cultures.

Here is more, this time from Japanese culture:

Shintoism:

Stage 1:  Animal senses (awareness, basic connection to the world, untrammeled by thought, unfocused attention on everything and anything)
Stage 2. Command of Reasoning
Stage 3. Calm but happy feeling
Stage 4. Harmony, Spirit with ALL
Stage 5. Spiritual Truthful Pure

Buddhism:

1. Control of senses
2. Reasoning
3. Concentrated meditation
4. Unconscious or subconscious mind
5. Nothingness, Absolute, Before Heaven and Earth Separated.

Karate

1. Strong basics, Strength in eyes, hips, mind,  control of senses
2. Continuous combinations, Strategy and Spirit (Fearlessness), intellectual reasoning
3. escaping techniques, strong feeling with calmness, no power in shoulders
4. throwing techniques, mind, body, and hip oneness, humility and harmony
5. spirituality in character and healing.

These are all about developmental stages and bear some similarities to one another and to what Crafty presented.

Here is my take on the development of men taken from stories that I have heard and my own experiences:

1.   Child:  Awareness is open, untrammeled by thought, growing, learning, unfocused attention on anything and everything.  In a healthy state as aware as any animal and as unquestioning.
2.   Youth:  Boys and Frogs.  Wild and free, expression of Tom Sawyer energy.  Facing small challenges and dangers.  Adventure and excitement.  The understandings of comrades and tribes.  Mischief, laughter, the roots of male camaraderie.
3.   Hero:  Naïve grandiosity, bravado, facing challenges, breaking through limits, developing your skills as a man, filling the space with your energy, ostentatiousness.  Wild power. Fearlessness.  Have not yet been defeated.  Berserker. (Cuchulain, Champion of Ireland : this story is about Cuchulain’s transformation into a champion (http://www.bartleby.com/182/302.html )
4.   Champion.  Not Naïve.  Calm self control in the face of danger. Able to defeat a Hero of equal physical skill.  Has faced enemies more powerful than himself.  Able to function in the face grave challenges.  Aura incites faith and hope.  Ulysses, Cuchulain later in life,  others. 
5.   Elder. The ones who have passed through the previous stages and know by experience.  Because of their experience and the shortening of time that comes with age, they see the outcomes and so are not surprised. According to some of the Irish stories, they are the Leatherman with skin like leather.  Able to approach the hero and influence him in the fire of the hero’s passions.  Cuchulain entering the village after the heat of battle was so intense and enraged that the heat from his skin would set houses on fire as he walked past.  The Elders, the Leathermen, would grab him and sit him down.  They would pour a cauldron of water on the hero and the heat from his body was so great that he would turn the water into steam. The elders doused him 3 times before he was calm enough to walk around without causing problems.  The Leathermen are Leaders of the tribe but they lead through service and advice.
6.   Sage.  Advisor to the Elders.  Stands at Elders elbows.  Only teaches those who ask.  Merlin to King Arthur.


Cheers.

Karsk

Robert is more in line with what I am considering here.   

But I think that Jeff's contributions are worthy of comment.  I think that it is true that there are people that do not live the values that they themselves espouse.  Just like the accounts of historical knights that you bring up. There are and have been "orders"  where people have tried to codify character values and recognize the attempt at right effort.  Sometimes those groups had ulterior motives, sometimes they failed to uphold the values they espoused in huge ways, sometimes the "values" were in reality sadly lacking.  But throughout all this time, there are people that try to live according to a certain set of values that I have come to think of as martial values, or knightly values, or noble virtues.  These things aren't complex or fancy and there are evidences of these values in all of us.  Even the most base of us recognize these things as being good.  Things like honor, integrity, benevolence, courage, humility, and so on.  Exactly how those things are manifested really do seem to be a function of the age and the culture.  But doesn't it strike you as important that throughout  the ages some have tried to live in this way?  Even amidst imperfect systems, people and situations? I am not really interested in the historical bureaucracies here that may or may not have been espousing Knights. I am interested in the real energy behind the ideal.

It's a quality of our present culture to express cynicism over anyone or any group who might endeavor to live according to values.   I think this hurts us and I think it especially hurts young men.   

So when I see evidence that there may be people who in some way , means, shape or form who are trying to study and practice character in real ways I want to get to know them and acknowledge it.

Yeah,  that does sound a bit nebulous doesn't it?  Let's see...what am I getting at?

I am a father of sons.  I have two good men for sons and I have raised up and taught a lot of young fellows (and women too but I see some things with us guys that needs attention these days).  I used martial arts training as a means to teach them some things about being men and about being good people.   To me, martial arts has been about learning to fight but also about learning when to fight and why.  Embedded in the history of martial arts in many places world wide there are traditions of  developing character through the martial practice.  One of the reasons that I became interested in European Martial Arts was because I wanted to search out traditions from my own culture about the development of character and nobility. I wanted to find something that resonated deeply in my own psyche in this.

Stories of nobility are always colored by the mores and political nature of the times that they exist in.  The actual behavior that people present as being noble may vary as a result.  And people are always growing and so do not always act according to their ideals. We struggle.   But I have been amazed at the nearly universal recognition of noble virtues through the martial traditions and among individuals that I have met.

The Dog Brothers is about as real as I think practice in the martial arts can get and that is admittedly based on an uninformed position of watching a few videos and reading things here on the forums.  So you have captured something essential in your practice that I think a lot of people are missing.  How do you approach the idea of character development?  Is there responsibility in teaching to build character purposefully?  Does it happen to each of us incidentally as we endeavor in martial practice?  How do we distinguish from merely being tough guys of varying degrees and flavors of morality and something more?  In short, are their Knights?


Karsk

Oh and as to stage fighting,  here is my understanding:

Some is better than others though it all is modified to make it look interesting on screen.   I had a chance to practice with a re-creation group in Scotland.  Their intent was to replicate battles and fights between individuals. They wanted things to look exciting and realistic but without actually doing it.  It's choreography and while some people may also be accomplished fighters and bring their knowledge to bear in the choreography, the choreography just "looks" like a fight.  It's not a fight.  The timing is wrong distance is wrong targets are wrong... right for the appearance but not for a real situation.


If you are asking for opinions about cool movies and the fight scenes in them I thought that the movie Cyrano de Bergerac played by Gérard Depardieu was interesting but that was a long time ago. Shrugs.

Mike

Cool.  I live in BC also.  Perhaps I could make contact with Tricky?
Mike

Hiyas,

First in introduction:  I am an olde guye (53) I have practiced martial arts for a reasonably long time and while I have spent a lot of time practicing karate, I have also had the good fortune to have wrestled and I have had a chance to study some other grappling arts and weapons. In a lot of ways I guess my MO is not much different than a lot of folks out there in the martial arts. I learned about the Dog Brothers a quite a few years ago from one of our senior karate guys (Caylor Adkins) who met some of the Dog Brothers in another context.   Anyway, I got interested and I have enjoyed learning more about you all from this website.  I like the ideas you promote here. 

With regard to European martial arts, I started fencing in college and as I practiced Asian martial arts I started wondering about the European Traditions.  I tried to learn about  real swordfighting was like in the past.   I learned a bit about rapier fighting and armored fighting and I tried it in some of the groups out there that do those sorts of things.  The SCA and some other groups play at it and while there are some pretty tough and gifted people in those groups there are also a bunch of people who just wanna have fun.  I guess that's OK by me.  Sometimes its just fun to play.  The rules of sparring in such groups is really distracting though.  Most are really careful about safety and liability and have adapted practice weapons that don't match the characteristics of real swords.  There are other groups out there that try to do a better job and I noticed that some of them are linked above.  Underneath it all is a real interesting study though.

There are lots or really interesting old books that you can find on the net.  Here is one:  http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/silver/contents_body.htm

Ol George was an Englishman about the time when there where European Schools of Fence.  He was of humble origins I believe and was a proponent of cut and thrust swords. These are the heavier swords typically used by soldiers of the day as opposed to rapiers that were mostly focused on thrusts.  There are lots of stories about rival groups arguing about what was better and it tickles me how things back then were similar to today in that respect.  At any rate,  if you can wade through the old style of writing you will find a serious attempt at   martial arts instruction. 

I have also read through writing from Italian, French and Spanish schools.  I don't know how true this is but the three seemed to be characterized by flavors...the French seemed to like counter attacking and finesse, the Spanish liked a very aggressive forward pressing feeling, and the Italians seems to mix it up. 

Some of the books on the longsword from Germany show really cool combinations of throws, kicks, strikes along with sword work.  Mostly these are in drawings.  I think that practicing back then surely must have been realistic and "Dog Brother" like.

I thought I recalled that some folks were experimenting with medieval weapons in a Gathering.  I don't recall seeing or hearing of the outcome of those experiments. 

 

At the site of the Battle of Visby in Sweden ( http://www.answers.com/topic/battle-of-visby )  Archaeologists uncovered mass graves.  The armor in those graves was mostly a kind of leather armor with metal plates in it,  shin guards and forearm guards.  Many of the injuries were of the lower legs.  And they also used shields.


Adding a shield is an interesting experience to edged weapon fighting.  Shields are defensive but also offensive in nature.  A round shield has a handle in the middle of the shield and kite shields attach to the forearm.  Both were used to deflect and absorb attacks but they were also used to cover actions and also to strike an opponent. The edge of the shield was like an extension of a punch.  There were smaller shields called bucklers that were used in conjunction with rapiers or short swords. The buckler could prevent slashed and thrusts.

I think there is really something to learn here.  What do you guys think about the addition of shields and armor in gatherings  for the purposes of studying this?  I don't mean armor for the sake of protection in order to spar without the risk.  I understand the philosophy of minimal protection.  I mean the inclusion of armor as a real component of combat as it was in the past. How does that change things? 

For example,  what if people wore forearm  and shin guards in fights?  How does the addition of chest armor and a rigid gorget (neck protection) alter the outcome of a knife fight for example?   A good gorget is sufficient to prevent a fang choke I think. 

What sort of modern equivalent would make sense to wear for police officers?  Do they already have such things?  Would the addition of forearm guards and light but effective chest armor increase the capacity for defense and save lives in realistic situations.  I have experienced this a little though probably not with the same intensity that occurs at a gathering.  It did change things and it did enable me to counter things that I previously could not.

P.S.   I suppose its intriguing to think about the rest of us as well and not just police officers.  Like training with things that can deflect weapons that we find in the environment.  Does that really work?  The historical texts are filled with people using items like lanterns and coats to help against knife attacks.   Does that really work?   I think it ought to but it has to be practiced.  Is there something that you could wear or put on that would help protect you in an emergency situation if you had some lead time?   

Cheers,

Mike

Hi,

This is my first posting on this forum. I have done a bit of stick fighting but I have not done any dog brothers style whomping.  Nevertheless I may be able to offer something to this conversation.

 I actually have a way to build long lasting practice weapons that I thought I would share.  These weapons have a nice heft and can be built with a handle or without.  Please excuse the general nature of my recipe:

Materials and equipment

3/8 inch  fiberglas  electric fence post (these have make and female screw end pieces on them
high impact foam.  This is the sort of foam that step aerobic steps are made out of   Pipe insulation and ensolite is simply too weak and break down rapidly with use.
2 to 3 mm thick pliable leather
simulated rawhide thread
duct tape
leather punch
foam adhesive
long screw driver, metal rod, drill bit that you can use to put holes in foam


Cut the fiberglas post to the length that you want minus about 4 inches.  You are going to want to poke with the sticks so you need to make end caps.  You can consider screwing two rods together if you want a staff sized weapon.  Remember that fiberglas fibers can embed in your skin and cause itching.  To cut the rod use a hack saw and cut under running water to keep the dust down.  You can also bind the ends prior to cutting which helps a little.

Take the high impact foam step or other foam source and cut plugs out of it as thick as you can make them practically.  Don't sweat the small stuff if the plugs are only a few inches thick.  You are going to stack them to completely cover the rod.  They should be approximately 2 to 2.5 inches in diameter and be round.  If they are not completely round you can tune the shape with a coarse file if you want.

Puncture each round right smack in the center of the round and try to make sure that you go straight through.  The more uniform that you make the blanks the nicer the final product will be.

Apply glue to the foam ends and then thread the foam onto the rod.  you should completely cover the rod at this point. When you do so you will notice that the hard fiberglas end is flush with the foam. This is no good if you want to poke and still be safe.  Cut several circular  leather  end pieces and glue these onto the end of the rod.  Glue a final piece of round foam that is 1 to 2 inches thick to the leather. The leather prevents the rod from telescoping through the end piece. The end piece provides the padding.  

After the glue has dried, wrap the whole stick with duct tape. You can also apply a layer of strapping tape to the stick before you add the duct tape for added strength.

Lots of people stop here with this design.  But if you want a long lasting practice weapon that looks good and feels right then add a leather cover.     The stick is a cylinder so cutting out the leather is simple.  Your pattern will be 2 leather end pieces that match the diameter of the stick and a rectangle of leather  such that its length matched the length of the stick and its width is = the circumference of the stick.  Punch uniform holes all around the perifery of of the leather pieces at a distance of approximately 1 cm or less.


The easiest way to sew the leather onto the stick is to first lightly glue the pieces in place on the foam.  Apply a bit of glue to the edges of the leather wherever you feel the need to hold the leather snug.  The only point here is to secure the leather close so you can sew it onto the stick.  Use the simulated rawhide thread and use a lock stitch.  

After you are finished you can further strengthen the stick by carefully weaving several strands of rawhide thread directly into the foam. In my first version of this stick I ran the thread right through the foam to the other side of the stick at about 6 inch intervals straight through and at right angles as well. This is on the edge of overkill in terms of quality I think.  Its a bit challenging to push a long needle all the way through the foam.  Instead you can simple weave the rawhide into the foam at an angle if you want.

I built my first set of these sticks about 15 years ago. They still work well.  They weigh about the same as a rattan stick that is about an inch thick and they feel like a nightstick.  A normal fellow can take a full shot from one of these on the arms, legs or body.  You will still need to protect your head a bit.  Hockey helmets seem fine as do the standard fencing masks.   I would also recommend a bit of wrist protection if you are slightly built.  One lady had her forearm cracked becasue she had her hand caught on something, unable to move when she was struck on the arm but I consider that to be a fluke. Nevertheless a bit of wrist and foremarm protection would have prevented that injury.

The advantage of these sticks for practice is that you don't get any broken kneecaps and the like.  As I alluded to above you can still get your bell rung with these. To me they are a great practice weapon.

Total cost for 2 sticks...its been a while but I am guess that one rod suitable for 2 sticks is around 10 dollars and the leather might cost around 5.  A step aerobics bumper step that you can cannibalize might also cost around 10 to 15 bucks but you can make around 4 sticks from one of those. There are also other sources of high impact foam such as marine upholstery stores.
The total is probably around  10 to 15 per stick if you know how to scrounge.

Oh and if you want to make these things feel like a machete you can add handles to one end.

Cheers,



Karsk