Dog Brothers Public Forum

Jeff, you left out the part where I admitted to not seeing many of his fights.
About, those questions I asked about Royce and not transitioning his game to make him more competitve in todays mma?

Its my opinion, but Royce was/is caught in the same vaccum as most BJJ guys....they think their BJJ can carry them. Ego being the bigger factor.
That coupled with BJJ being the flavor of this time frame and people flocking to it like its the martial art messiah.....I think this too will pass......80's was karate....90's thai boxing... now Bjj.....Next will probably be generic mma.....It may already be...
You claim to have an open mind to wrestling but my guess is you fit into the same category as Royce does.....
I would venture more wrestlers have the open mind your talking about than do the BJJ guys. In fact you talk about how open minded your wrestlers are.......When was the last time you let your D-1 Champ teach a class?    My guess is you like to think your teaching him as "your guy"

Take Josh Koschek for example...a monster on the ground not super known for his subbmissions though I am fairly certain he can throw an arm bar if need be.......but he has really worked his stand up game to make himself a very formidable stand up fighter. open minded? college wrestler turned pro mma fighter with a bright future.

 good example of a hard work ethic thats been instilled in all the premier wrestlers that have made the transition into the mma world.
Like I said before......theres a reason why a lower belted bjj/ wrestler beats a balck belt in BJJ In mma and its not his bjj..........after all should not the BJJ black belt beat the lower ranked belted figther? (Please answer this) We have kind of danced around this question for some time.

As for smashing down the walls of reason.......I don't follow?
I think I have kept all my questions, statements and posts in realistic perspective.........when in actuality its you who fail to budge on your BJJ superiority mentality.......

My goals involve BJJ/Sub Wrestling and MMA, so certain aspects of "pure" wrestling don't apply as much.

For every champion one can name with a high percentage of one base art, you can name another with a different base art.

Yet you have insisted that BJJ Is essantial to being successful in mma.....
.
                                                 TG

but it wouldn't hurt now would it? 

So Jon....how long will it take you to get this black belt? Is it worth the time, effort and of course$$$$?

Will spend the same time to get a Judo Black belt, or to train in thai boxing or even Wrestling?
It wouldn't hurt would it?
                                                              TG
The point is time is precious and the window is small, time wise for fighters........to spend all that time to train in BJJ....IS a  waste for a serious MMA Ffighter....or better yet..wannnabe fighter.

Woof Guide Dog, Not at all....do I'am not that crazy.......The gathering is the Ultimate mma.
I do have respect for BJJ..... I just no longer think its magic as it was when Royce introduced it to the UFC....so many years ago........
I do my best with my limited availiblty in instruction to pick up what I can.....we also incorperate it in our wrestling as best we can........I'am sure I'am very tech. flawed....but I have been able to arm bar a few people and choke out a few others.
But no I'am not going to seek out the BJJ Guys at the gathering.......Unless their  stick skills suck.
                                                         Dog TG

^From Crafty's lips to God's ear, amen.

So then Jeff you agree with Crafty's post?

IMHO he should have been up at Rico Chiapparelli's RAW/R-1 Gym in El Segundo experiencing the wrestling based fighters there-- men like Rico, Vlady Matyushenko, and Frank Trigg.

If I'am not mistaken Royce lives in Hermosa beach, just 5 minutes from the R-1 gym

But IMHO on the night he fought MH he underestimated how much things had changed. 

If I understand Crafty correctly, he is saying that in the" old" UFC, Royce was able to grab a arm or a neck from an unsuspecting opponent, because BJJ  was new to most.....but now fighters understand BJJ and are more wary of what to look for....because they've seen it.
                                                 
                                                                 TG

Hey, before everyone gets too serious. I'am just having fun here.
Strikes won the Silva vs. Hendo fight in that Hendo was beaten to the ground by strikes unable to recover enough and yes submitted by RNC.

"The man is more important than the style."  Bruce Lee

Does the style make the man?
Not everyone can fight in a Dog Brothers gathering after all. Nor can everyone wrestle

I try and learn a little something from anyone that will teach me 

You said well.........Thats why I like the DBMA......Its very well rounded, with a little of everything.
Whiich has been one of my points all along.
I don't think it neccassary to be a BJJ black belt to be a well rounded fighter......so why spend all the time and effort...... after all as I've said before esp in the conteext of mma, you onley see 3-4 baisc submissions.
Yet watching Hendo hold down Anderson Silva is telling.....and yes Hendo did get his ass kicked.
                                                             Dog SB

Jon, I will stop having this discussion when you can tell me how a blue blet, beats a highley touted Blackbelt, in a ground game....in mma?
Example being Matt Serra losing to  Georges st. Pierre........on the ground.
Many more, look at my list on the ufc 83 thread.

Where in the hell did anyone make that claim? No one said anything of the sort.

Well then Jon, is spending all those years Learning all that BJJ really worth the time and investment?

Or are BJJ black belts over rated?
                        

Well.....Its probably just me....but I would be intrested in hearing why GI training was so important in mma....esp since pretty much all mma has gone GI-less.
Speaking of Chute box......has anyone ever seen Vanderila(sp) Silva submit someone?

I'am wondering if the Sherk -Penn fight will end up like the Hughes- Gracie fight........

I still haven't figured out how MH totally dominated the Great Joyce Gracie beat him at his own game...took his back and punched his eyes out.
Surley no one would argue that MH Bjj skills are any where near Royces....but yet..... How did this happen?

Jeff the thing that gets me about you.....is how you seem to attribute any wrestlers success in mma to the fact that they trained in BJJ. I think thats BS......If Sherk double legs Penn and sits on his chest and punches his eyes closed BJJ will have nothing to do with it.....and by the way.....I don't think Sherk can Submit Penn.

My opinion on the sherk -Penn fight is that, Bj Penn is a more skilled fighter, Sherk is a monster mauler and a cardio machine that I attribute to his wrestling background......
The same with all the wrestlers that I named in the previous thread......its the past training in wrestling thats carried them and taught them what being in shape is really like.
Crafty elluded to this in a previous post(and got jumped for telling the truth).......Unless you've been there I don't think you can fully understand it.
                                                                     Dog SB

Guide dog, I can appreciate you not wanting to debate Bjj vs. Wrestling. However I think much can be learned and realized withA healthy, hearty discussion.
I will sometimes play devils advocate just to provoke discussion. I'am not looking for argument by any means.
But this is a classic match up.....
I'am really looking forward to this fight!
                                                                       TG

MedicMatt, Not sure I can agree with you, but I understand what your saying.......maybe paraphrased ..."put them down nicley"
Or with minimal harm to "bad guy"
My idea or thought would be one of personal responsibility. That goes to both good guy and bad guy.....but mostley my thought is towards the bad guy on this.
I work hard for my stuff and to provide for my family, I obey the laws and try to be a productive citizen.
Bad guy breaks into my house try to help himself to my stuff....obviously thats just wrong and he has to be resopnisble for his actions.
If I do nothing and let him take my stuff (just because its "stuff") and get away.....whats to keep him from doing the same to others or worse yet come back and further terrorize my house hold.

Its just my opinon, but if somone violates the law like, burglary and they get messed up for it.......thats their fault.....in other words they have to take responsiblity for their own actions. They never should have crept thru the window, in the first place.

As my kids were growing up, I always told them....."If you don't want to get burned, don't stick your face in the fire"
Key point here is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY........too many people these days DO NOT take this.
                                                                          TG

That was great. What is the year on it? I saw arm bars, chokes, hooks thrown in the legs......very nice.......Also pretty OLD if I'am not mistaken.
                                                         TG

Ok, a little more than what I was looking for, but its all good. Sorry for not listing all my competions.

What I was actually looking for was where your balance was between your BJJ which is obviously your main game, and say your stand up muay thai, judo ect......anyway its all good.

With my refrence to Chuck Lidell, that was in response to this Quote:

[If you are saying that someone coming from an extensive wrestling background only needs a small amount of submission training to be successful at the highest levels of MMA, I respectfully disagree.  I think that about sums it up./quote]

He may be a purple belt in BJJ but hes predominatly a stand up fighter whos made his bones on that, and done very well with it.......might I also add to the list Rampage Jackson.......I have never seen him submit anyone, but I do recall a Pride highlight reel, where he power bombs(massivly) someone who was trying to arm bar him......anyway hes done quite well, without the submissions......even though you may assert he trains them or needs them,.....they again are not a major part of his game.......and he is... Uh....UFC light heavy weight champ.

As for Babaloo...If you want to rank him as a second class citizen in your BJJ club(thats how I interpet what your saying about him) thats cool....all I know is hes known to be a Black belt.

Anyway.......Submissions and guard passes are cool and I agree needed to be a well rounded Cage fighter. I still think wreslters can add this to their wrestling package and do quite well.

I do however suggest that they are not all inclusive and that to be well rounded as a Cage fighter you have to have all attributes.  (This is what I have been saying all along) Not just live on BJJ

If your honest, about the Penn state champ you got traiining in your gym. You would admit hes way out of your league.
And he  can probalbly maul most guys in your BJJ School that are his weight and probably much larger.
To say other wise......I simply refuse to believe.
Not saying at all, that you can't teach him something.
his ground game is obviously already world class.
                                                                  TG

Jeff, I do not or have not trained formal BJJ. Also if you look at my past posts on this thread you will see where I HAVE given bjj proper merit. I continue to do so.

As for a brief resume of my past experience: High school wrestler, and coach for the last 4 years.....While serving six plus years in the navy I studied Chuan fa Kung fu, Ed Parkers kenpo Karate recieved begginers belts in both.....
while stationed in Subic Bay Philippines I trained Kuntaw karate with Seal team 1 earning first class brown belt, however we did more of what I call combat karate employing lots of knife and stick fighting as well as judo, akido, and small amonut of kung fu.....however core was Kuntaw karate.

After I out of the navy I kickboxed for a brief period of time fighting amature Wka....
Since I come from a small town in Ohio quality martial arts schools are hard to come by....so for a time I got out of martial arts and just practiced on my own, and really got involved in weight training.

For the last five years I have been involved with the Dog brothers martial arts  and am a group leader iin DBMA. I have fought in three gatherings and will be fighting in August.
I'am now 47 years old. Ok?
Your turn.......
                                        Dog TG

Jeff, Well I got absolutley no sense of bais from your post .
Your obviously a bjj guy who has trained some, in some other arts, correct?

Now it’s all one big happy family that punches, kicks, slams, and chokes each other to see who’s the best on any given Sunday.

I have from the very begining of this mess, always been in agreement that, a well rounded fighter with knowledge in various arts is important....including submissions.

I think a wreslter with some knowledge of submissions is sufficent......sure a little bit of guard pass is also helpful, but then thats not rocket science either.
I know that ego is huge in BJJ, but try not to make BJJ out to be anything more than what it is....fighting or a from of fighting.
There is nothing new to martial arts that people have not been doing, since Cain slew Able.....I agree training and practicing defiently makes for a better fighter, than just animal aggression.
I guess my point being, Some people tend to make way to much out of martial arts.....as if it is some kind of magical, invincible force......to this I adamently disagree.

I can say without much hesitation, that most if not all of your trainning, is devoted to BJJ.......I would guess you do very little stand up and probably even less pure wrestling.
I would also guess that you feel your BJJ suffices for your wrestling training.
I'am fine with that........I just happen to feel my wrestling training suffices for my BJJ training.....with the exceptions that we practices submissions and gaurd passes. ect.

Some of the things you spoke of concerning wrestling I disagree with. Esp. with regard to technique and finesse.
As a coach we never teach our wrestlers to muscle an opponent, or try to out strengthen them but to rely on speed, executaion of technique, form and all the same attributes that, I'am sure you equate to BJJ......
Yes wrestlers are generally really strong and muscular, mostly because of the training and what it takes to go full go for 3 periods.
Like I said,before pulling guard in wrestling is end game(pinned) and lack of movement or trying to better your position is called STALLING a wrestler gets penalized for this, where as its acceptable practice in BJJ.....Hence what I think is the key attribute to wrestlers being in general better conditioned and stronger than BJJ prcationers(imho)
Anyway.......I'am out on this.....I have said my piece and as I have also said my views and opinons are also my own....your entitled to yours as well.....Have a nice day.

Woof Gruhn, Hopefully you will get around to responding to my last post.
Something else that caught my attention concerning your man at Penn state:

He actually stated that the BJJ he trained for three months prior to his senior wrestling season helped him maneuver his opponent’s limbs more efficiently, ultimately leading to his National Title.  Interesting . . .

Since colligate wrestling and BJJ are definetly contrasting arts, I would be intrested to hear how BJJ helped him maneuver his limbs in such a way that it helped him win his national title.
Surley it did not come from the guard position because that position is highly unfavorable to a wrestler.....we call it getting pinned
So please expound on your intresting statement that BJJ helped the guy win a national title.....
                                                                           TG

Woof Rio, I don't think that Guro Crafty was disavowing one art for another, at all. Niether am I for that matter. BJJ has its merits for sure

What he was/is saying  and I do agree with is, WHO wrestlers are. At least those that compete at a high level.
By and large they tend to be superior athletes both mentaly and physicaly.(superior to the avg. athlete)
The sport is super tough.
Not everyone can wrestle COMPETITVLY and about the onley place you can learn wreslting is in a competitve enviorment, so the pool of athletes is limited to those who are most serious about the sport.
If you want to be a high school state champ in the state of Ohio you better start wrestling at about 5 years of age. Thats just to become a HIGH SCHOOL STATE CHAMP.  Let alone college level.

Most everyone can practice BJJ there are commercial schools out there that will teach you as long as you pay......not so with wrestling
Rio what is your back ground?
Do you have much actual knowledge of wrestling? Have you ever actually wrestled, or better yet wrestled with a wrestler? (just curious)
                                                 Dog SB
I'am not, nor was I trying to disrespect BJJ, I was just responding to Gruhns statement: to the question of how to make a guys BJJ look like Kiddie stuff......He said learn BJJ.......I simply suggest.....Learn wrestling.
I think past history clearly points that wrestlers do very well against BJJ.....case in point......GSP sat. night destroyed Matt Serra a Gracie Black Belt......using wrestling and ground and pound.
IMHO GSP Wrestled Matt Serra........and did not employ BJJ....... I'am a former wrestler and wrestling coach by the way.

In the matches I listed, Wrestlers defeated BJJ black belts.
With exception of Rich Franklin.
All the rest have a pretty substantial wrestling pedigrees even GSP trains with the Canadian olympic wrestling team.

GSP, Said in his post fight interview with Ken Flo, that his strategy was to out work Matt Serra, because his cardio was known to be suspect......I think thats fairly typical of bjj.

Can you give me a list of top wrestlers who have been beaten by BJJ guys?

I think my list is fair and substantial...and names top level bjj guys who have lost to wreslters.
                                                     TG

Woof, I think recent UFC history (except early ufc/royceGracie) would suggest that the wrestlers do quite well against the BJJ guys.
Also I think a factor is the wrestlers conditioning appears to be far superior........

I would suggest......learn wrestling ........arm bars and RNC'S are not rocket science and any one can lay on their back with their legs wrapped around your waist.....(think wife/girl friend )
                                                              TG
  Discalimer:Posted in good nature from a wrestlers point of view

Woof Guro Crafty, Is this by invite onley or open to the public? 30 minutes from me. I will surley be there as well as a couple of my guys(if allowed).
Is there contact info?
                                                             Dog SB/TG

Thai70, I had a ruptured posterior tibial tendon. It was surgicaly reattached, 12 weeks non weight bearing......but 1 1/2 years later holding up well.
My foot doc. does not want me running or any excessive pounding on it. I'am glad my doc. reattached the tendon and gave it a chance, my other alternative would have been to fuse my foot in place.
I just wanted you to know this is a serious injury.......needs to be well cared for.
                                                         TG
Sorry to muddy the thread.
I too was really impressed with the guy!!

Woof Maxx you asked where to get the combining stick and footwork video? Well....as they say "if it was a snake it woud have bit you"
The combining stick and footwork video is a Dog Brother video.
By the way.......Dog brothers martial arts incorperates a fair amount of "Illistrisimo stuff" 
                                                               Dog TG

Alright Maxx!!! Is that the August gathering your going to attend?
See you there!                     
                                      DogTG

Woof Digital mafia, I agree it would be a toughy. Like I said I would love to WATCH!
Hope you can make to the August gathering. Would love to meet you, and see you use those Mai soks.
                                                                            Dog TG

Woof, Is this setting up for August? I'am with Poi Dog.
Can't wait for tis one.
                                              Dog TG

Woof C-Dp Davis, Nice job! I thought you did fight really well last June! Congrats, on a well done piece. You represent well!
See you in August.
                                                                 
                                                                     Dog SB/TG

Woof Maija, Have you seen "The Hunted"?
One of my more recent favorites.....also, the choreographers are known to haunt this forum
                                                         TG