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Messages - Howling Dog

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Politics & Religion / Re: Homeland Security
« on: May 17, 2008, 02:22:39 PM »
That is an intresting relation between Nazi's and Jihadis....Seems to make sense...not sure they could live well together....but anyway, it is understood.
Is the hatred for America related to our freedom or our alliance with Israel...or both?

however the Shia side of the global jihad is surging forward with little to stop them at this time.

Expound please? I'am thinking Sadr and Iran/Iraq....but see little threat to the U.S. with the exception of our being on their playing field in Iraq.......which was not their playing field until we made it that way.

Are they intrested in Terrorism on a global scale?

Politics & Religion / Re: Homeland Security
« on: May 17, 2008, 01:56:52 PM »
There is a historical alliance between the nazis and jihadis that still thrives today.

Now thats a match I do not understand..... One being Racist and one being religous........

I will admit one thing.......things have been quite....Lets hope they stay that way.

Though my understanding of terrorism is that terrorism uses time to its advantage and the willingness to wait for the opertune moment, is a attribute to terrorism.
Take Bin Laden for example, he is showing a tremendous amount of restraint and not trying to force anything......He makes very little noise these days.
Yet we all know hes there......

Politics & Religion / Re: Homeland Security
« on: May 17, 2008, 11:02:29 AM »
Woof GM, I agree with you on this and find this really hard to prevent.
I personally would like to see more reasources being spent at home than abroad....but anyway....

Would you include Timothy Mcvie(sp) the Oklahoma city fed bldg. bomber in this group of possible terrorists?

Politics & Religion / Re: Homeland Security
« on: May 17, 2008, 10:17:42 AM »
Woof, Ok.....I was just wondering if these would be fake passports........Or why we would issue passports to terrorists........

Politics & Religion / Re: Homeland Security
« on: May 17, 2008, 07:00:29 AM »
Scannning the recent posts this caught my eye.......

IMHO, the next major terror attack CONUS will be, at least in part from jihadis holding US/UK/EU passports.

 9/11 may have been plannned in some afghan cave some where.....It was actually hatched  out and done pretty much from within the U.S. pretty much American made(except the players) ..........So I'am pretty much in agreement.

My question is How is it then prevented?

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 16, 2008, 07:04:57 PM »

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 16, 2008, 05:35:50 PM »
Ehhh, if he taps me I think that would be considered a win.  If he out points me, I think it's considered a win.  However, I'm 155 when I'm in shape,

Agreed but some wreslters are takedown artists....In other words they take down their opponent get the 2 points kick the guy out and take him down again.......16-8 they win 2 points per takedown vs. 1 point per escape...... I'am not looking for anything like that......besides what kind of rules do you want to go by....Wrestlers get points for putting people on their backs :lol:.....obviously a submission is a win regardless...... anyway...we can work on it.

155-160 When in shape? What do you weigh when your not in shape? :-P
My guy I think wrestled at 160 this year...not likley though he'd want to cut weight.......
                                                           Dog TG

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 16, 2008, 02:31:23 PM »
Ryan,Sorry for thre delayed and all. Anyway.....Nice of you to offer for the roll. For me I would like it to be a semi competitve type deal. Not so much as a winner or loser, but with Dog Brothers spirit....of lets use this as a Lab......experiment a little and lets see.

I would honestly like to see...simple as that.......and For everyone to hear....PLEASE LISTEN YA'LL.......I don't have ANYTHING against BJJ.....
BJ Penn is one of my favorite fighters and one of the best bJJ guys in the UFC(IMHO) I also like Nate Diaz's BJJ....He's pulled of some cool stuff in recent fights.
Anyway having said that....I'am sure my guy would go with you(he said he would with jeff) and maybe we can work out something.
He told me last night he's weighing around 180.
If you come Down to Canton.......
Regardless its all good....... respect for the offer.
                                                                 Dog TG

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 15, 2008, 05:22:16 PM »
Yea I guess it is. A couple of things though that I find to be quite contrary are the facts that both Gruhn and Jeff agreed with Crafty that Royce Gracie should have trained with wrestlers prior to his"fight" with Matt Hughes.
Yet Jeff insists that the reason why  top notch wrestlers do so well in the UFC, is because they hold some sort of belt in BJJ........
Then again, I know from my Karate experience that holding a belt does not neccassarily make you good at what you do.
I've seen Karate black belts who could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag, but then I've seen green belts who fought like beasts.........kind of why I'am not all that pro belt, ranking....

Its just my opinion, but I feel anyone who can compete at any sport at a college level esp all things equal,like weight classes, has proven themselves....and is pretty solid.

Anyway, I'am really not as big a ass as I may seem,but I do feel quite strongly about my position....or when I take one :lol: (no matter what it may be).....thats why I really do hate all the key board chest bumping.......It really is as Perigrine says....amusing......and proves nothing.......kind of why, I asked Jeff if he would roll with my wrestler........but I do respect his decsion not to............
The adventure continues........
It was good today to have my wrestler home from college......its fun to watch him and his brother onley two brothers can :lol:.......
The older.....will be fighting in the Aug. gathering..........hes a pretty solid wrestler in his own right :wink:
                                                                Dog TG

A two on two or three double stick fight sounds to me like a WHOLE LOT of pain.
As for the attacks from behind goes.........Guro Crafty are you asking this from a safety stand point or a tactical one?
I think it in evitable that someone would get behind their opponent....... From a safety stand point, I would hope that the fighters would not take a cheap shot(goes without saying).

I have'nt had the guts yet to fight double stick 1-1.......but if a 2-2 or 2-3 double stick fight can be worked out... :cry: :|.....I MIGHT....emphisis on intrested. Besides this is Dog Brothers......lets prove it!!! 8-) :evil:
Like I said sounds like a whole lot of PAIN. :wink: :|
                                                           Dog TG

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 13, 2008, 02:17:40 PM »
Ok, No problem.....It really was not intended so much as a challenge match with any kind of anger or animosity attached.....but just a friendly roll......more for my benifit than yours of course, becuase you already know how you match up against a college wrestler...but I would be intrested to see how well a college wrestler matches up agianst a BJJ brown belt.
 NJ is a little far, besides I'am quite sure I would not do well.......old and tired and all......

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 13, 2008, 01:58:19 PM »
Now Now Jeff, take it easy, I'am in agreement with that BJJ has its merits. Your right, in that this discussion has hit the wall.
My real intention was to look at a very intresting fight BJ Penn and Sean Sherk with their attributes and how it may pan out.......

However.....In the spirit of Dog Brothers martial arts and the attitude of lets try it and see what happens.
Speaking on behalf of someone who know not that I'am speaking for them at this point.....and with the fact that I onley live about 4 hours from you in would you feel about Rolling with my college wrestler and lets take a look. I'am pretty sure hes about your weight.
He has very little BJJ experience.
There again I'am speaking for him and with out his knowledge.....yet hes known to be a gammer. Are you?

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 13, 2008, 01:17:54 PM »
Actually jeff, Ia'm basing my thougths on the things you say, correct. I actually put up the quotes to back up why I think the way I do about you.
If the oppertunity to train bjj with a good instructor for a reasonable price came along.....I would consider it.

It is cool that he sought you out to coach him, though I would venture his core is already established.....In fact I would venture he could teach you a few things......wouldn't that be cool?

You seriously have no idea what nonsense you're spouting at this point.

I actually consider myself a very rational person.....I sense its just a little frustration on your part.
You've been trying to pigeon hole me all whole argument is that you can take a quality (college wrestler) teach him a few submissions and he would suffice on the ground at a high level.......again I think this has been established.

I have a college wrestler that I train dog brothers with.
So in the context of a pure ground game(No striking) would you say you match up, with a college wrestler equal weight....being that your a brown belt BJJ.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 13, 2008, 12:16:11 PM »
Jeff, you left out the part where I admitted to not seeing many of his fights.
About, those questions I asked about Royce and not transitioning his game to make him more competitve in todays mma?

Its my opinion, but Royce was/is caught in the same vaccum as most BJJ guys....they think their BJJ can carry them. Ego being the bigger factor.
That coupled with BJJ being the flavor of this time frame and people flocking to it like its the martial art messiah.....I think this too will pass......80's was karate....90's thai boxing... now Bjj.....Next will probably be generic mma.....It may already be...
You claim to have an open mind to wrestling but my guess is you fit into the same category as Royce does.....
I would venture more wrestlers have the open mind your talking about than do the BJJ guys. In fact you talk about how open minded your wrestlers are.......When was the last time you let your D-1 Champ teach a class?  :roll: :wink: :|  My guess is you like to think your teaching him as "your guy" :lol:

Take Josh Koschek for example...a monster on the ground not super known for his subbmissions though I am fairly certain he can throw an arm bar if need be.......but he has really worked his stand up game to make himself a very formidable stand up fighter. open minded? college wrestler turned pro mma fighter with a bright future.

 good example of a hard work ethic thats been instilled in all the premier wrestlers that have made the transition into the mma world.
Like I said before......theres a reason why a lower belted bjj/ wrestler beats a balck belt in BJJ In mma and its not his bjj..........after all should not the BJJ black belt beat the lower ranked belted figther? (Please answer this) We have kind of danced around this question for some time.

As for smashing down the walls of reason.......I don't follow?
I think I have kept all my questions, statements and posts in realistic perspective.........when in actuality its you who fail to budge on your BJJ superiority mentality.......
My goals involve BJJ/Sub Wrestling and MMA, so certain aspects of "pure" wrestling don't apply as much.

For every champion one can name with a high percentage of one base art, you can name another with a different base art.

Yet you have insisted that BJJ Is essantial to being successful in mma.....

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 13, 2008, 10:43:46 AM »
Jon, My questions are simple and easy to understand. Of course some start young and already have black belts in a particular style.
Thats pretty much my point.
If a person spent all his time devoting to one style to get the coveted black in BJJ, that would make him pretty much one dimensional(IMHO) and what about the Judo the thai boxing and all the rest....that the open minded choir says has value in context of mma.

As for the college wrestlers.....most that have made a transition into the MMA world and have done quite well......weve gone done that road already.
I would say when you look at it from the stand point of how many guys can wrestle at a college level vs. the millions that can walk into the local BJJ gym and train BJJ....the numbers would be quite small by comparison.

Not many people I know train 8 hours a day.....myself I work .
How many guys do you know who train 8 hours a day.
I don't know many 5 year old kids that want to be pro mma fighters.... so from a carrer stand point, most do come a little later in life.
Its kind of hard to determine if a little kid can take gettin punched in the face would,nt you say?
When I was kick boxing a k16 year old could fight with parent permission.....that was the youngest.

I asked Gruhn and Jeff some specific questions......I'am still waiting for the answers to.

One in particular pertains as to why Royce Gracie never changed his game to adapt to todays MMA......The other pertains to how much they train in pure wrestling.

Both agreed that Royce should have done this..........I'am just wondring how much the open minded choir practices what they preach
I also asked what percentage they feel BJJ makes up the Whole of the mma pie?
I have reasons for these questions.

Wow. I'm sure Pat Miletich thinks his black belt under Alves and Montiero was a waste of time.  You just took your own back on that one, fren.

What do you mean? ....I'am not following.........Pat Miletich in my opinion was a mediocore fighter.....but I confess I have not seen a lot of his he runs a business.....and I think  A lot of his name fighters have jumped ship.....but anyway please explain how I gave my back.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 13, 2008, 09:03:20 AM »
but it wouldn't hurt now would it? 

So long will it take you to get this black belt? Is it worth the time, effort and of course$$$$?

Will spend the same time to get a Judo Black belt, or to train in thai boxing or even Wrestling?
It wouldn't hurt would it? :roll: :|
The point is time is precious and the window is small, time wise for spend all that time to train in BJJ....IS a  waste for a serious MMA Ffighter....or better yet..wannnabe fighter.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 13, 2008, 08:49:02 AM »
So Jeff, and Gruhn......It was asked me in the UFC83 thread how much time I spend doing BJJ.....How much time do you guys spend doing pure wrestling?
When was the last time either of you competed in a grecco roman or open freestyle tournament?

Why do you think Royce would not have had the sense in all his years of not have cross trained like all the others have?

Also what percentage do you attribute BJJ to the mma puzzle or pie?

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 13, 2008, 08:36:05 AM »
Woof Guide Dog, Not at I'am not that crazy.......The gathering is the Ultimate mma.
I do have respect for BJJ..... I just no longer think its magic as it was when Royce introduced it to the many years ago........
I do my best with my limited availiblty in instruction to pick up what I can.....we also incorperate it in our wrestling as best we can........I'am sure I'am very tech. flawed....but I have been able to arm bar a few people and choke out a few others. :lol:
But no I'am not going to seek out the BJJ Guys at the gathering.......Unless their  stick skills suck. :wink:
                                                         Dog TG

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 13, 2008, 08:16:45 AM »
Gruhn, So then you also agree with Crafty, that Royce Gracie should have trained "extensivly" with the wrestlers at R-1 GYM before fighting Matt Hughes?  "BIG TIME" :|

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 13, 2008, 07:49:59 AM »
^From Crafty's lips to God's ear, amen.

So then Jeff you agree with Crafty's post?

IMHO he should have been up at Rico Chiapparelli's RAW/R-1 Gym in El Segundo experiencing the wrestling based fighters there-- men like Rico, Vlady Matyushenko, and Frank Trigg.

If I'am not mistaken Royce lives in Hermosa beach, just 5 minutes from the R-1 gym

But IMHO on the night he fought MH he underestimated how much things had changed. 

If I understand Crafty correctly, he is saying that in the" old" UFC, Royce was able to grab a arm or a neck from an unsuspecting opponent, because BJJ  was new to most.....but now fighters understand BJJ and are more wary of what to look for....because they've seen it.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 12, 2008, 06:27:11 PM »
For that very reason we can't accuratly debate this nowadays without having a true wrestler vs. true BJJ'er fight.  We can't find them anymore because both wrestlers and BJJ'ers see value in their respective art.

So how much pure wrestling do you have?

I would venture, that possibly more wrestlers are willing to learn BJJ than BJJ guys are willing to learn wrestling. Why?
Imho its the "Gracie superiorty complex" they think their grappling skills suffice against wrestlers.
This I would disagree with. Some of this comes from the physicality of the wrestler.
I would however agree from a pureists context that BJJ ugys would have advantage in submissions.
Although there are wrestling holds that can inflict a lot of pain(not necassarily subbmission).

There again from an argumentitve stand point....the wrestler has advantage....IE: Gracie vs. Hughes

Back to the thread......I would not be suprised to see BJ Penn attempt to fight Sean Sherk on his feet.
I'am not convinced Bj Penn can beat Sherk on the ground.
Stand up......I think Penn wins this game.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 12, 2008, 04:32:08 PM »
Hey, before everyone gets too serious. I'am just having fun here.
Strikes won the Silva vs. Hendo fight in that Hendo was beaten to the ground by strikes unable to recover enough and yes submitted by RNC.

"The man is more important than the style."  Bruce Lee

Does the style make the man? :-D
Not everyone can fight in a Dog Brothers gathering after all. Nor can everyone wrestle :lol:

I try and learn a little something from anyone that will teach me 

You said well.........Thats why I like the DBMA......Its very well rounded, with a little of everything.
Whiich has been one of my points all along.
I don't think it neccassary to be a BJJ black belt to be a well rounded why spend all the time and effort...... after all as I've said before esp in the conteext of mma, you onley see 3-4 baisc submissions.
Yet watching Hendo hold down Anderson Silva is telling.....and yes Hendo did get his ass kicked.
                                                             Dog SB

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 12, 2008, 03:34:01 PM »
I understand what your saying. You would be right to not use Matt Serra's win over GSP as an example of Bjj wining.
However I have never used my examples out of context like your implying.

I just need to know why, a Balck belt in BJJ Loses to a lesser ranked BJJ belt in the context of a grappling type match.....just as in Matt Hughes and Royce Gracie.
The same goes for GSP and MS fIGHT 2.

If a heavy punch lands and hurts the fighter that makes all the difference in the world.
Again Ive kept my examples in context.......I beleive in playing fairly :lol:

Jon, tell me something about your training..... Like what you train in how long ect......I'am just curious.
Also,I f you could onley train one art what would it be?

If you talking about Anderson Silva beating  Hendo........Uh strikes won tht fight. Do you remember the 1st round? Hendo totally dominated that round.....on the ground.

Again Jon, I have always kept my argument in context.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 12, 2008, 03:01:51 PM »
Jon, I will stop having this discussion when you can tell me how a blue blet, beats a highley touted Blackbelt, in a ground mma?
Example being Matt Serra losing to  Georges st. Pierre........on the ground.
Many more, look at my list on the ufc 83 thread.

Where in the hell did anyone make that claim? No one said anything of the sort.

Well then Jon, is spending all those years Learning all that BJJ really worth the time and investment?

Or are BJJ black belts over rated?

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 12, 2008, 02:53:24 PM »
Yes, he's ended a number of fights with RNC's in Pride

Actually Wand did submit 1 guy with a rnc....I just looked up his record.

So you attributing the Matt Hughes win over Royce, to age? MH was 33 and Royce was 39
You say he beat him at every range.......The onley range I remember was Royce on his back.
The thing is where were all those magical skills? Royce put up absoultly no fight whatsoever...probalby one of Matt Hughes easiest fights.

I hate to get under your skin, but you are right in that I don't think these wrestlers would have the same kind of success if they did not train BJJ or a similar high level submission style.  Is that really up for debate?  In 2008?

I think the thing that makes the argument valid is when a highley tauted black belt in BJJ gets beat by a lesser ranked(bjj belt).....wrestler.

How does this happen skills wise?

You take all these weslers and point out they have brown , blue, purple belts...ect and yet they end up beating black belts on the ground.
To me that just dose'nt equate.
A good example is Bj Penn.......He's got great BJJ skills and as far as that goes......I won't even argue Sherk to be in his class as far as submissons go.........So does that mean Penn beats Sherk on the ground?

By rights it should.....yes? At least to your way of thinking? yep even in 2008.....  I'am by no means saying that Wrestling is better than Bjj.
My argument all along has been.......I would rather take a wrestler(core) and teach him a few submissions and go wqith that.
Than take a BJJ Black belt or whatever with no wrestling background......
                                                             Dog TG

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 12, 2008, 02:01:24 PM »
Well.....Its probably just me....but I would be intrested in hearing why GI training was so important in mma....esp since pretty much all mma has gone GI-less.
Speaking of Chute box......has anyone ever seen Vanderila(sp) Silva submit someone?

I'am wondering if the Sherk -Penn fight will end up like the Hughes- Gracie fight........

I still haven't figured out how MH totally dominated the Great Joyce Gracie beat him at his own game...took his back and punched his eyes out.
Surley no one would argue that MH Bjj skills are any where near Royces....but yet..... How did this happen?

Jeff the thing that gets me about how you seem to attribute any wrestlers success in mma to the fact that they trained in BJJ. I think thats BS......If Sherk double legs Penn and sits on his chest and punches his eyes closed BJJ will have nothing to do with it.....and by the way.....I don't think Sherk can Submit Penn.

My opinion on the sherk -Penn fight is that, Bj Penn is a more skilled fighter, Sherk is a monster mauler and a cardio machine that I attribute to his wrestling background......
The same with all the wrestlers that I named in the previous thread......its the past training in wrestling thats carried them and taught them what being in shape is really like.
Crafty elluded to this in a previous post(and got jumped for telling the truth).......Unless you've been there I don't think you can fully understand it.
                                                                     Dog SB

Woof, Booked my flight today. Brining in two first time fighters and a couple of fans :-D.

Hope the gathering will be some place close to Hermosa beach.
Ive grown quite fond of the place.......

Look forward to seeing all of you that I know already, and all who I will meet for the first time.......
How about sounding off if you plan to be there....
                                                Dog SB

Martial Arts Topics / Re: sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 07, 2008, 04:14:35 PM »
Guide dog, I can appreciate you not wanting to debate Bjj vs. Wrestling. However I think much can be learned and realized withA healthy, hearty discussion.
I will sometimes play devils advocate just to provoke discussion. I'am not looking for argument by any means.
But this is a classic match up.....
I'am really looking forward to this fight!

Martial Arts Topics / sean sherk vs. bj penn
« on: May 07, 2008, 02:05:31 PM »
Woof, A couple of weeks to go before this match up, I thought I would start this thread for fun, and some serious conversation.
Like I stated in a previius thread, Fighters with a core background in WRESTLING have done quite well in the ufc.
Some would dispute that and insist that the reason why Wrestlers have done so well is because the also trained bjj. Of course I disagree :-D

However I think the fight between Sherk and Penn will be a good example of Wrestler vs. Jits guy.

Make no mistake I love Bjj Penn.....hes one of my favorite fighters, and without a doubt very very talented.
However Sean sherk is a beast, and a tremendous ground and pounder.......he will just flat out wear your ass out. Where he lacks in talent as a fighter he makes up for with conditioning and drive.

In my opinon I give the skills aspect to Penn, but if Sherk can take it into the later rounds the advantage switches to him.......
Wrestler vs. BJJ guy.......Lets talk smack :lol: Anyone want to flat out pick BJ PENN?

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Self-Defense Law
« on: April 28, 2008, 01:48:40 PM »
MedicMatt, Not sure I can agree with you, but I understand what your saying.......maybe paraphrased ..."put them down nicley"
Or with minimal harm to "bad guy"
My idea or thought would be one of personal responsibility. That goes to both good guy and bad guy.....but mostley my thought is towards the bad guy on this.
I work hard for my stuff and to provide for my family, I obey the laws and try to be a productive citizen.
Bad guy breaks into my house try to help himself to my stuff....obviously thats just wrong and he has to be resopnisble for his actions.
If I do nothing and let him take my stuff (just because its "stuff") and get away.....whats to keep him from doing the same to others or worse yet come back and further terrorize my house hold.

Its just my opinon, but if somone violates the law like, burglary and they get messed up for it.......thats their other words they have to take responsiblity for their own actions. They never should have crept thru the window, in the first place.

As my kids were growing up, I always told them....."If you don't want to get burned, don't stick your face in the fire"
Key point here is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY........too many people these days DO NOT take this.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Self-Defense Law
« on: April 27, 2008, 03:05:27 PM »
Woof, Fortunatly in Ohio, you can still shoot someone who breaks into your long as they are all the way inside.
The running joke is.....If you shoot somone climbing in your window and they fall back outside....drag them inside before the law arrives. :lol:

Myself, I have a 90lb pittbull that has the run of the house, and I keep some nasty toys close to the bed.
I sleep pretty well. :lol:

Martial Arts Topics / Re: VIDEO CLIPS OF INTEREST
« on: April 25, 2008, 02:30:41 PM »
That was great. What is the year on it? I saw arm bars, chokes, hooks thrown in the legs......very nice.......Also pretty OLD if I'am not mistaken. :wink:

Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 24, 2008, 12:41:38 PM »
Fair enough. This thing went way, way farther than I intended anyway.
My suggestion of learning wrestling as a way to make BJJ look like kiddie stuff was orginally intended to be a light hearted jab at BJJ. (Look back at my first couple of posts I state that)

I should have known all the BJJ guys would get up tight about it. :wink:

However one last jab as I conclude here :-D

He learns everything VERY quickly, and makes up new stuff all the time.  He made up a kneebar from half-guard bottom last week that no one ever showed him, he just saw it in his mind and thought it would work.

Kinda makes my point that BJJ Is not rocket science. :|
I'am out......

Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 24, 2008, 11:02:08 AM »
Ok, a little more than what I was looking for, but its all good. Sorry for not listing all my competions.

What I was actually looking for was where your balance was between your BJJ which is obviously your main game, and say your stand up muay thai, judo ect......anyway its all good.

With my refrence to Chuck Lidell, that was in response to this Quote:

[If you are saying that someone coming from an extensive wrestling background only needs a small amount of submission training to be successful at the highest levels of MMA, I respectfully disagree.  I think that about sums it up./quote]

He may be a purple belt in BJJ but hes predominatly a stand up fighter whos made his bones on that, and done very well with it.......might I also add to the list Rampage Jackson.......I have never seen him submit anyone, but I do recall a Pride highlight reel, where he power bombs(massivly) someone who was trying to arm bar him......anyway hes done quite well, without the submissions......even though you may assert he trains them or needs them,.....they again are not a major part of his game.......and he is... Uh....UFC light heavy weight champ.

As for Babaloo...If you want to rank him as a second class citizen in your BJJ club(thats how I interpet what your saying about him) thats cool....all I know is hes known to be a Black belt.

Anyway.......Submissions and guard passes are cool and I agree needed to be a well rounded Cage fighter. I still think wreslters can add this to their wrestling package and do quite well.

I do however suggest that they are not all inclusive and that to be well rounded as a Cage fighter you have to have all attributes.  (This is what I have been saying all along) Not just live on BJJ

If your honest, about the Penn state champ you got traiining in your gym. You would admit hes way out of your league.
And he  can probalbly maul most guys in your BJJ School that are his weight and probably much larger.
To say other wise......I simply refuse to believe.
Not saying at all, that you can't teach him something.
his ground game is obviously already world class.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 24, 2008, 07:15:14 AM »
Can hardly wait :roll:.......Its not that big a deal.......I was just intrested in how well rounded you actually consider yourself comparitively to your BJJ brown belt......which I assume has taken you a number of years of dedicated training.
I'am really interseted at what levels you have achieved at these other arts/styles and how much time you put into them.

I have trained wrestling, judo, sambo, CSW, Kali/Escrima, Thaiboxing and other styles back in the day.  While I’ve never entered a Gathering, I used to train Kali a good bit, and have always been a big fan of the Dog Brothers.

When you say back in the day....whats that mean? I hardley consider youy old at 32. :|

What do make of Dumog?

If you are saying that someone coming from an extensive wrestling background only needs a small amount of submission training to be successful at the highest levels of MMA, I respectfully disagree.  I think that about sums it up.

Chuck Lidell Wrestled at Cal poly sci. and has done very well in mma without submissions :roll: :|
Can you say Babaloo? BJJ black belt I beleive? :-D
I think that about sums up my point (respectfully)

Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 23, 2008, 04:37:25 PM »
Jeff, I do not or have not trained formal BJJ. Also if you look at my past posts on this thread you will see where I HAVE given bjj proper merit. I continue to do so.

As for a brief resume of my past experience: High school wrestler, and coach for the last 4 years.....While serving six plus years in the navy I studied Chuan fa Kung fu, Ed Parkers kenpo Karate recieved begginers belts in both.....
while stationed in Subic Bay Philippines I trained Kuntaw karate with Seal team 1 earning first class brown belt, however we did more of what I call combat karate employing lots of knife and stick fighting as well as judo, akido, and small amonut of kung fu.....however core was Kuntaw karate.

After I out of the navy I kickboxed for a brief period of time fighting amature Wka....
Since I come from a small town in Ohio quality martial arts schools are hard to come for a time I got out of martial arts and just practiced on my own, and really got involved in weight training.

For the last five years I have been involved with the Dog brothers martial arts  and am a group leader iin DBMA. I have fought in three gatherings and will be fighting in August.
I'am now 47 years old. Ok?
Your turn.......
                                        Dog TG

Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 23, 2008, 02:31:21 PM »
Jeff, Please tell me where my conclusions are the opposite of what I stated. I'am all ears.

I would also be intrested to hear where your standing is and how much you trained at Judo, Sambo, and all the other areas of martial arts you've trained at. you state a pretty impressive list for a 32 year old guy, just curious as to how much time you put into learning each.
You stated you fought amatuer kick boxing and mma......How many fights have you had in each?
I'am not all that concerned about your record....just your experience.

Please excuse my skeptisim, I have run into more than one key board warrior in my time on the net including this forum. So in advance no disrespect intended.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 23, 2008, 01:28:22 PM »
Jeff, Well I got absolutley no sense of bais from your post :lol:.
Your obviously a bjj guy who has trained some, in some other arts, correct?
Now it’s all one big happy family that punches, kicks, slams, and chokes each other to see who’s the best on any given Sunday.

I have from the very begining of this mess, always been in agreement that, a well rounded fighter with knowledge in various arts is important....including submissions.

I think a wreslter with some knowledge of submissions is sufficent......sure a little bit of guard pass is also helpful, but then thats not rocket science either.
I know that ego is huge in BJJ, but try not to make BJJ out to be anything more than what it is....fighting or a from of fighting.
There is nothing new to martial arts that people have not been doing, since Cain slew Able.....I agree training and practicing defiently makes for a better fighter, than just animal aggression.
I guess my point being, Some people tend to make way to much out of martial if it is some kind of magical, invincible this I adamently disagree.

I can say without much hesitation, that most if not all of your trainning, is devoted to BJJ.......I would guess you do very little stand up and probably even less pure wrestling.
I would also guess that you feel your BJJ suffices for your wrestling training.
I'am fine with that........I just happen to feel my wrestling training suffices for my BJJ training.....with the exceptions that we practices submissions and gaurd passes. ect.

Some of the things you spoke of concerning wrestling I disagree with. Esp. with regard to technique and finesse.
As a coach we never teach our wrestlers to muscle an opponent, or try to out strengthen them but to rely on speed, executaion of technique, form and all the same attributes that, I'am sure you equate to BJJ......
Yes wrestlers are generally really strong and muscular, mostly because of the training and what it takes to go full go for 3 periods.
Like I said,before pulling guard in wrestling is end game(pinned) and lack of movement or trying to better your position is called STALLING a wrestler gets penalized for this, where as its acceptable practice in BJJ.....Hence what I think is the key attribute to wrestlers being in general better conditioned and stronger than BJJ prcationers(imho)
Anyway.......I'am out on this.....I have said my piece and as I have also said my views and opinons are also my own....your entitled to yours as well.....Have a nice day.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 22, 2008, 07:31:01 PM »
Woof, While its tempting to go with this, I see no real value in it. So for me.....I' am pretty much done.
I have my views and opinions as do all of you.
Of course the BJJ guys would  and should take offense to my insinuations that wrestlers can beat them.
My onley suggestion to the BJJ guys is check out wrestling programs and do your home work on what all is involved.
Solid wrestling programs are actually really hard to come by so it may not be worth your effort.....besides I would hate to shake your faith in the magic of BJJ......

I actually think Pergrine makes some valid points, esp when it comes to street or actuall combat situations And bJJ. A good way for a 150lb average joe to get the back of his head power bombed off the side walk is.....pull gaurd on some enraged opponent  :wink:

Rio have you been to a gathering? Lots of wrestling goes on there.
 I'am not sure I know you, have we met?
I will be there at the August gathering will you?
What kind of competions have you fought in?
Do you consider BJJ a combat sport?
I may be a ltitle on the fence about the "combat" part.
                                                   Dog TG
By the way the next UFC should be very intersting to this conversation.....BJ Penn vs. Sean Sherk


Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 22, 2008, 02:20:38 PM »
Woof Gruhn, Hopefully you will get around to responding to my last post.
Something else that caught my attention concerning your man at Penn state:
He actually stated that the BJJ he trained for three months prior to his senior wrestling season helped him maneuver his opponent’s limbs more efficiently, ultimately leading to his National Title.  Interesting . . .

Since colligate wrestling and BJJ are definetly contrasting arts, I would be intrested to hear how BJJ helped him maneuver his limbs in such a way that it helped him win his national title.
Surley it did not come from the guard position because that position is highly unfavorable to a wrestler.....we call it getting pinned :lol:
So please expound on your intresting statement that BJJ helped the guy win a national title.....

Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 22, 2008, 08:59:44 AM »
Woof, As I have stated more than point is/was to adress how to make a guys BJJ look like kiddie stuff, was to simply learn wrestling.

I'am by no means trying to say wrestling can dominate by itself in the UFC, If you look at my post with sled dog I agreed that in order for a fighter to compete in the UFC, HE HAS TO BE WELL ROUNDED.

This includes submissions. I don't however see a need to spend 10 years and thousands of dollars to earn a "black belt.

If you look at a lot of the "American" fighters in the UFC A lot of them come froma wrestling background as their core.
I think this is highley benifical and not by accident.
These guys know how to diet, train cardio like mad men and are very comfortable in take downs and take down defense as well asfighting on the ground...ect.ect......

Penn State's 4x NCAA All American, 2008 National Champion started wrestling in 7th grade out of Harrisburg.  He’s now focusing on learning BJJ to begin his MMA career, and is fascinated by how technical it is.  He actually stated that the BJJ he trained for three months prior to his senior wrestling season helped him maneuver his opponent’s limbs more efficiently, ultimately leading to his National Title.  Interesting . . .

Bythe way,Whats his name? I would like to look up his credentials as a colllege wresler.
Of course then again you make my point that hes comming from a wrestling background. that in my opinon puts him at a huge advantage in learning BJJ.
Why do you insist BJJ is so "TECHINCAL"?

Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 22, 2008, 06:37:06 AM »
Woof Rio, I don't think that Guro Crafty was disavowing one art for another, at all. Niether am I for that matter. BJJ has its merits for sure

What he was/is saying  and I do agree with is, WHO wrestlers are. At least those that compete at a high level.
By and large they tend to be superior athletes both mentaly and physicaly.(superior to the avg. athlete)
The sport is super tough.
Not everyone can wrestle COMPETITVLY and about the onley place you can learn wreslting is in a competitve enviorment, so the pool of athletes is limited to those who are most serious about the sport.
If you want to be a high school state champ in the state of Ohio you better start wrestling at about 5 years of age. Thats just to become a HIGH SCHOOL STATE CHAMP.  Let alone college level.

Most everyone can practice BJJ there are commercial schools out there that will teach you as long as you pay......not so with wrestling
Rio what is your back ground?
Do you have much actual knowledge of wrestling? Have you ever actually wrestled, or better yet wrestled with a wrestler? (just curious)
                                                 Dog SB
I'am not, nor was I trying to disrespect BJJ, I was just responding to Gruhns statement: to the question of how to make a guys BJJ look like Kiddie stuff......He said learn BJJ.......I simply suggest.....Learn wrestling.
I think past history clearly points that wrestlers do very well against in point......GSP sat. night destroyed Matt Serra a Gracie Black Belt......using wrestling and ground and pound.
IMHO GSP Wrestled Matt Serra........and did not employ BJJ....... I'am a former wrestler and wrestling coach by the way.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 21, 2008, 06:28:27 PM »
Woof Sled dog,
I firmly believe that those who successfully fight and win in MMA are no longer where they came from because it takes so much more that that to win in the octagon.

No argument there, I totally agree. I think that was the point, that Matt Hughes wanted to make when he fought Royce Gracie. At least Matt Hughes thought, that Royce and the Gracies, thought that they could still dominate in the UFC with BJJ alone.

Intrestingly enough MH beat RG at his own game......

GSP Has to be one of the most/best well rounded fighters in the ufc today........I would hate to speculate where hes strongest at.

I would however argue that, most fighters, while well rounded revert to what they know best when the heat gets hot and the pressure is really it be wrestling, kick boxing or BJJ.......most all fighters have their safty net that they feel they can fall back on, if they need to, and a lot of times, most do.
GSP was a BJJer before he discovered wrestling.

Intresting. Makes this old wrestler smile :-D

Those examples that I gave of Wrestlers vs. BJJ black belts.....were losses by the bjj black belts on the ground, where they should have been at their best.

I make no secret about my feelings that BJJ is over rated.....take a wrestler and teach him a few submissions and you got a VERY fromidable ground guy.
After all how many different chokes and submissions do you actually see being pulled off in the UFC? Arm bar,RNC, Triangle choke and an occassional other.....but not often.
                                                                            Dog TG

Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 21, 2008, 03:57:47 PM »
In the matches I listed, Wrestlers defeated BJJ black belts.
With exception of Rich Franklin.
All the rest have a pretty substantial wrestling pedigrees even GSP trains with the Canadian olympic wrestling team.

GSP, Said in his post fight interview with Ken Flo, that his strategy was to out work Matt Serra, because his cardio was known to be suspect......I think thats fairly typical of bjj.

Can you give me a list of top wrestlers who have been beaten by BJJ guys?

I think my list is fair and substantial...and names top level bjj guys who have lost to wreslters.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 21, 2008, 03:01:42 PM »
Woof, I'am not trying to turn this into a wrestler vs. bjj debate but support your positon with factual examples please.

Heres my short list: Gsp vs. Matt Serra (bjj bb)
Rich Franklin vs. Travis Lutter (bjj bb)
Matt Hughes vs Royce Gracie (Bjj bb)
Kenny florian(bjj bb?) vs. Sean sherk
 BJ Penn vs. Matt hughes and GSP 
Josh Koscheck vs. Diego Sanchez (bjj bb?)
Sean Sherk vs. Hermes franca(Bjj bb)
Just few off the top of my head.........What cha got? :wink:

Martial Arts Topics / Re: At UFC 83 in Montreal
« on: April 21, 2008, 02:25:03 PM »
Woof, I think recent UFC history (except early ufc/royceGracie) would suggest that the wrestlers do quite well against the BJJ guys.
Also I think a factor is the wrestlers conditioning appears to be far superior........

I would suggest......learn wrestling :lol:........arm bars and RNC'S are not rocket science and any one can lay on their back with their legs wrapped around your waist.....(think wife/girl friend :-D)
  Discalimer:Posted in good nature from a wrestlers point of view :lol:

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Guro Crafty in Canton OH 7/12-13
« on: April 15, 2008, 09:16:57 AM »
Woof Guro Crafty, A quick I'am on the run at work.
I may try to call you later today.
Doing some brain storming :-D.......glad to hear your going to be in the area.
                                          Dog TG/SB

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Guro Crafty in Canton OH 7/12-13
« on: April 14, 2008, 06:04:07 PM »
Woof Guro Crafty, Is this by invite onley or open to the public? 30 minutes from me. I will surley be there as well as a couple of my guys(if allowed).
Is there contact info?
                                                             Dog SB/TG

Woof, Thanks guys for all your posts, they resonate quite well. Please keep them comming.
Much respect to all those who participated and espically to those who lasted all 3 days stick fighting.
Thats a major accomplishment regardless of how many fights you pulled off each day.

C-Scotty, Doubtful anyone who knows you in the slightest would question how badly you wanted to get back out there, even after a concusion. One of my most vivid memories of you from the June gathering was you walking around with a ice bag on your wrist trying to get it back together enough to continue fighting. There are greater days ahead for those who push on.......

Sled Dog, as a guy whos getting older himself I can relate to the post activity soreness, keep swinging I'am, sure you represented the first generation dog brothers quite well.

Dog Dean, your post on the members site spoke very well........I think it would have a nice place on this thread as well. Hope to meet you soon. I will be at the Aug. gathering.....

Congrats to all those who advanced up the ranks, well deserved!!!
Even though I could'nt make this event just reading the threads, swells my heart with pride, knowing the quality and caliber of men who undertake and participate in the Dog Brothers gathering of the packs......I look forward to Aug. and seeing you all again as the pack will gather again.
much respect!! WELL DONE TO ALL!!!
                                                    Dog SB/TG

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Check out this guy's progress.
« on: March 29, 2008, 06:50:41 PM »
Thai70, I had a ruptured posterior tibial tendon. It was surgicaly reattached, 12 weeks non weight bearing......but 1 1/2 years later holding up well.
My foot doc. does not want me running or any excessive pounding on it. I'am glad my doc. reattached the tendon and gave it a chance, my other alternative would have been to fuse my foot in place.
I just wanted you to know this is a serious injury.......needs to be well cared for.
Sorry to muddy the thread.
I too was really impressed with the guy!! :-o

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