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Messages - armydoc

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Martial Arts Topics / Re: filipino Weapons and Armour
« on: July 18, 2007, 10:29:46 PM »
The Moros were Muslims.  The armor pictured on the webpage noted looks to me like it is pretty typical of the armor that would have been worn by the "Saracens" during the Crusader era.  The barong is a pretty standard blade shape within FMAs, though there are a multitude of different blades.  Much of the "classical" stick work was done as a training substitute for a blade, so yes...the barong would be used in a fashion very similar to stick technique.


Martial Arts Topics / Re: sparring/fighting with bladed weapons
« on: June 01, 2007, 05:01:43 PM »
So I was thinking that knife fights(sparing) could be in two parts. Have an attacker and a defender that would switch roles in the second round. The attackers goal is to grab and stab, only being able to use the knife after they got a hold of the defender. The defenders job is to evade and cut/thrust. At three? cuts, the attacker has to break and start over.

My thinking is that this would really work the defenders evasion skills. With separate goals ,the players might not get frustrated and go in for the double kill?  I'm sure this can be improved upon, so I would appreciate any comments.

These are good ideas and I like what you are saying.   But are we trying to come up with multiple progressive sparring drills, or are we trying to figure out how the knife can be "sparred" in a realistic way as possible in a setting such as a Dog Brother's Gathering?


Martial Arts Topics / Re: sparring/fighting with bladed weapons
« on: May 28, 2007, 08:33:48 AM »
  Here's a couple of the scenarios we've used.  The hidden knife or knives (one partner or both) while empty hand sparring.  Countering the berserker.  This one can be done from the previous one or as a way to spice up your regular knife sparring.  The set up is simple your designated berserker won't care if you cut him he'll just keep coming.  The defender obviously shouldn't try to trade shots. That one's great for footwork development.  Another useful scenario could one vs multiple opponents(armed or even unarmed).  For beginners we do one vs zombies.  You know arms extended walking toward you moderate speed not fast.  As they get better we do hand tag to develop speed.  One we do at almost every session involving knife sparring is to switch hands once they've been hit.  This one is great for bilateralism.

---Those sound very useful and fun!  Thanks for the input!   :-)

A very important key however is Maija's original point which was to not get cut.  This is probably the most important point in any knife training session. 

---I agree 100%.   This is the key focus in Lynn Thompson's "Long Range Knife-fighting" curriculum for Cold Steel.   This is also why I have some misgivings about the traditional FMA middle-range "give & exchange" drills.   When these are the only thing practiced, they have the danger of leaving the trainees with the impression that getting cut is acceptable, and that the preferrable range for a knife exchange is at mid to close range.    I also believe that fighting/sparring at a longer range is a different thing in and of itself than the middle range drilling, and that it should be trained separately in its own right.  My impression is that there are plenty of FMA groups that don't get into actual "knife sparring" and so seldom train at this range and are missing out.   But then this was a topic of debate in a prior thread and no need to go into it here. 


Martial Arts Topics / Re: sparring/fighting with bladed weapons
« on: May 25, 2007, 02:04:17 PM »
In that the conversation here in great part is about what we sometimes playfully call "sport knife dueling" done in a training hall context, the word "sparring" is often more accurate that "fighting", but IMHO I dislike the word sparring for what happens at a Gathering.

---Understood!  What happens at a gathering I would definetly call "fighting"!   It qualifies as such simply because the blows landed with a stick are just what they are....shots with a stick!  They have their affect just as the weapon was intended.   Working with a training weapon that represents a knife but that cannot truly deliver the same types of blows as a knife is a step back from reality and, as you suggest, may not really qualify as "fighting". 

Another good skill to practice are hand hits.  When two guys are initially squaring off, if you can get a couple of good hand shots in with your blade on his blade hand (assuming he has taken a weapon forward position), you are starting what would be a real world diminishment process.  Do it quickly and it's almost before the guy knows what happened.

---I agree 100%.   One of the things we do as part of the progression in sparring that I mentioned before is what I call "hand sparring."  In this method only the weapon hand and forearm is a target.   Its a good way to introduce people to knife sparring because it is a bit less intimidating and doesn't require as much protective gear.   It also gets people really focused on attacking and defending the weapon hand, which is a key component in knife "dueling." 


Martial Arts Topics / Re: sparring with bladed weapons
« on: May 25, 2007, 06:48:22 AM »
As CWS points out, a progression in the type and level of sparring in a training environment is important.  The intensity and type of attacks can be controlled by a good training partner.  Different levels of protective gear can be used depending on the situation.   But as Guro Crafty pointed out, maybe we should be concentrating here on how to pull off competitive knife sparring in a setting such as a Dog Brother's Gathering.

I understand Guro Crafty's reluctance to serve as a "referee" during such bouts.  And I don't think it is the total answer, but it can solve some problems.   With the stick and using minimal protective gear, an effective strike is see the results!   :-D   But not so with a knife.  As has been pointed out, an effective strike with the knife may not even be noticed, or what would have been a very effective fight stopper...such as a deep slash to the flexor tendons of the forearm....may not be acknowledged by the receiver because it didn't produce the disability that a real knife would.   So having a "referee" that is watching for such strikes would be helpful.  But that does NOT negate the fighters' responsibility to acknowledge good shots that the "referee" may not have been able to see.    I think an important aspect in knife sparring would be to get people away from the idea that the fighters can crash in on the opponent and take the action to the ground.  This may work well with the sticks, but would be a problem with the knife!   A "referee" would see that both fighters were taking effective shots and stop the action immediately.    Another point to consider is that what might be judged a "killing" blow may not necessarily stop the action.   A deep thrust to the chest or torso can still allow the opponent to keep fighting for a period of time...time enough to do considerable damage to his/her opponent.   Hence the FMA idea of "defanging the snake" and the more modern version of "biomechanical cutting" or "speed stops."    So again, a "referee" could serve as an important mitigating factor in such cases.    Effective, realistic knife sparring is a bit of a different animal from stick sparring, as I'm sure everyone realizes!   :wink:



Martial Arts Topics / Re: sparring with bladed weapons
« on: May 24, 2007, 08:11:57 AM »
Good thread!   I'm not part of his organization, but I know that in Hoch Hochheim's "Scientific Knife-fighting Congress" they do what they call "kill shot sparring."   From what I saw, it seems that its not really a "one shot", for the reasons that CWS referred to.   Instead, they have someone serving as a "referee" that pays close attention to the action and calls a halt  when one person has landed what he judges to have been "enough" to stop the other guy, or when both fighters have clashed enough that both would be dead.   Obviously this would require some skill and good judgement on the "referees" part, but getting to serve as both the fighter and the referee at different times gives one two very distinct impressions of the action.   Learning to watch for both good and bad tactics and how to deliver and avoid telling blows as the referee transfers directly over to putting it into action as the fighter.   


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Yoga
« on: May 15, 2007, 06:13:42 AM »
Those of you interested in the "Yang" side of Yoga should check out Scott Sonnon's work on

He has his own version of Yoga that he calls "Prasara Yoga" that is a mix of traditional Yoga and his own "bodyflow" exercises.  I'm not very familiar with Yoga, but it looks very challenging to me!

He also has a program that he calls  "Forward Pressure, The Yang of Yoga" which uses the transitions between Yoga postures to build strength as opposed to the "Yin" side of Yoga that most people are familiar with that emphasizes relaxation and flexibility.

I make use of some "Yoga" derived exercises that date back to the wrestlers in India.   I learned them several decades ago from my first Wing Chun instructor who just happened to be Indian.   Matt Furey incorporates them into the "big 3" of his Combat Conditioning program.   They are the "Hindu Push Up" or "Dand" and the "Hindu Squat" or "Baituk."   I haven't tried burpees before, but they look like a combination of the Dand and Baituk.  I'll have to give them a try!  :-)


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Boxing Thread
« on: May 07, 2007, 10:41:40 PM »
I may be in the minority, but I was not at all happy with the decision after the De La Hoya - Mayweather fight.  How can they take away a champion's belt with punch stats alone?  Everyone seemed to acknowledge that Mayweather won the split decision because he landed a higher percentage of punches.  But I ask...what happened to considerations such as "ring generalship", "aggression", and being the "busier" fighter?  If these things no longer count in boxing, then why do they need ringside judges?  Seems to me all they would have to do would be add up the punch stats at the end of the fight, and as long as no one got knocked out they'd have their winner!  There used to be a time in boxing when in order to take away the champion's title and belt you had to win decisively.  That meant a knockout, or if it went the distance there had to be little doubt in anyone's mind who won the fight.   Oscar said afterward in an interview that "I don't think I lost that fight."  I agree!  Mayweather was not fighting to win, he was fighting not to lose! 

They were building up this fight as the biggest draw for boxing in many years with the hopes that it would bring more old fans back to boxing and create new fans to give boxing a "shot in the arm."   Well, this old fan is not convinced to come back.  I would also venture to guess that a lot of the "general sports fans" that tuned in and watched Oscar chase Mayweather around the ring the whole fight, back him up against the ropes repeatedly to throw a flurry of punches,....and still lose on a split decision....didn't become new boxing fans.

I'm surprised no one has commented on Jim Lampley's cheap shot at MMA.   He said after the fight something along the lines of  "MMA may be entertaining, but you won't see the caliber of fighters that you saw here tonight."   That's crap. 

I do have to agree with Jeff.  The fighter I was most impressed with was  Bautista.

Anyway...I still think boxing is on the way out and that this much hyped event didn't do much to slow its decline.   But that's just my opinion.  :-)


Martial Arts Topics / Training Knives
« on: April 17, 2007, 11:06:00 PM »

Hey Guys!

I recently purchased some new trainers and I have been very impressed with them.   Check out the website here:

They are made from polycarbonate rather than aluminum.   In my opinion this has some advantages.  First, the polycarb is just as tough or maybe even tougher than aluminum, and it doesn't get those annoying "burs" that can scratch up your training partner.  It also seems that it allows for more designs.  John has several knife designs that includes crossguards that you don't typically see on aluminum trainers.   He also has a Vietnam Tomahawk trainer.   An aluminum trainer looks like a steel knife, which can have some psychological training advantages for both partners.  But it can also attract unwanted attention if you are training in public.  The polycarb may be a more "politically correct" trainer in public places.

John has a large variety of models and told me he has more in development.  He also does some nice custom designs.  He answered my questions promptly by eMail and shipped promptly when I placed my order.   He seemed like a really good guy to deal with and does good work.   Check him out!  :-)


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Euro MAI Interview with Guro Lonely Dog
« on: March 08, 2007, 11:21:34 PM »
Great interview!   Thanks for posting it!   :-D


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: March 04, 2007, 11:02:36 PM »
and if I understand ArmyDoc correctly a goodly part of his curriculum was about cultivating the ability to control whether the range was in medio/corto or in largo.  I'm a big believer in the important of primal forward pressure and that many FMA players simply don't get it-- indeed this is one of the main points of our DLO material-- but I would be hard pressed to think of someone whom could close on Maestro Sonny without dying first.

Guro Crafty:

Yes, I'm glad someone understood what I was saying!   :-D   My apologies if I have taken this thread off on a tangent.  But it seemed that everyone (including me) agreed that the middle range drills had value.   So I thought I would expand the discussion by pointing out that the outside ranges were valuable and deserved specific attention in their own right.   But it seems that idea has not gone over too well.   I also hoped to get a better feeling for how much time the typical FMA devoted to specifically training knife work in the outside ranges.   It sure seems that the answer has been "not much."   Unfortunately, it appears that I have offended Rafael in some way.   So I'll just shut up now!   My apologies to it was not my intention to offend or to seem hostile in any way.


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: March 03, 2007, 11:02:19 PM »

1.  Worst to Best Cases, in that order.

a.  you never see the knife coming, get stabbed and die.
b.  the knife comes out, you see it but don't have time to react, and die.
c.  the knife comes out, you react but in a way that you again, die.
d.  the knife comes out, you react, stop the blade from stabbing you.
e.  The knife comes out before you are in dangerous range, you run. (could be considered long range)

Hey Ryan!

Good breakdown!   But it seems to me that your scenarios assume the defender is unarmed.   Granted...that is how most situations would wouldn't have your knife out.   That's where the DLO material is so valuable.   You have to survive the attacker's initial onslaught.  Then perhaps you can create enough time and distance to draw your own knive in defense.   But I would posit that for a good percentage of the time, the time and distance created that allows you to draw your knife would also allow you to take a step back to the outside ranges.  Not everytime....but enough of the time to make "long range" skills a factor.   Again...the question I have asked several times..... if given the opportunity to step back from middle you take it?   Or do you stand and exchange at middle range?   I still wonder if the large emphasis given to the middle range drills doesn't develop the mentality that says you should stand and exchange at middle range.   Common sense says not to.....but then the way you fight is the way you train.......(not you specifically, but the "general" sense of you).


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: March 03, 2007, 10:47:37 PM »
Hey Rafael!

No one stated anything about staying and exchanging in middle range. Read my first post.
A person has ONE layer. The difference is that how a person responds in the middle range dictates whether he dies or not, MORE than long range.

---Then do you agree that staying out of middle range as much as possible is a desirable tactic?

 Is there real life footage of someone using any of the FMA knife methods?

Look at any prison shanking footage.

---Does that represent FMA knife methods?

---Then that would kind of negate the whole FMA idea of "defanging the snake"  or the more modern idea of "biomechanical cutting."  Unless, of course, those severe cuts weren't targeted very well.

No it negates it...that is correct.

---So you are saying that the ideas of "defanging the snake" or "biomechanical cutting" are invalid?

 Again, you have to place the "snake" methods in their historical context as I stated earlier.

---I'm not sure what you mean by this.   The "snake methods" I have been mentioning refer only to the idea of good evasive movement at precontact distances.

---That's where good footwork and mobility come in.   That's why fighting on the outside ranges needs its own emphasis.   If someone has only trained at the middle and close ranges, then they won't know how to deal with that forward pressure.

Unfortuantely, you are limiting your premise to suit your stance. I don't know ANY FMA school that ONLY teaches one range.

----Ah!  That's what I have been trying to get an answer too!   :-)  In my exposure to various FMA knife methods, the impression I have formed (rightly or wrongly) is that they place a large emphasis on training the middle range.   I have seen very little in the outside ranges.   And when I have been referring to "specific training", I mean training and methods designed for the outside ranges....not just occassional adaptations of middle range methods.

I am talking about focusing on the range that is MOST LIKELY to mean life and death.

---That's a good point!  One that Guro Crafty made as well.   :-)   No doubt this range is very important and deserves attention.  My point has been that the outside ranges are also important and deserve attention in their own right.  No one yet has seemed to acknowledged or agree on that point.

So how much time does Sayoc Kali spend in specifically training the outside ranges?

What's a suitable answer for you? You have inquired about this vague quantitative amount as if it amounts to quality several times now.

---Don't get me wrong!  I'm not trying to be critical of you or Sayoc Kali.   Again, I am asking if there is any significant attention given to the outside ranges in the FMAs.   I thought that asking someone from Sayoc Kali would be the best way to find out.  I figured that if any of the FMA spent a significant amount of time training in the outside ranges it would be Sayoc, since Sayoc seems to be the most comprehensive knife training around.  It shouldn't be a vague point at all.   Either the outside ranges are given significant attention or not.   A rough estimate would suffice.  So....compared to training the middle range material...does Sayoc Kali spend 10% of training time working the outside ranges?...30%....? 

I teach tomahawk myself so it would be interesting to meet Mr. McElmore someday.

---Mr. McElmore is a good teacher and a good guy.  You wouldn't  be disappointed.   :-)

Anyone who has studied with Manong Dan deserves respect.
The same goes for anyone who Manong Dan highly respects, wouldn't you agree?.

---Of course!   But I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make?  Have I disrespected someone?   :?

As per Western dagger methods via manuals... there's huge gaps in the manuals concerning the  knife. However, the one thing they focus on almost exclusively is the MIDDLE range.

---That's not entirely accurate.  Huge gaps...yes.   As far as focus....the emphasis is actually on grappling movements with a large double-edged dagger.   While this is arguably middle range, it is quite different from the  "tippy-tappy" drills. 


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: March 02, 2007, 10:58:27 PM »
Hey Rafael!

One is NOT going to get out of range unless you know how to get out of middle range.

---I absolutely agree!  I never said that training in the middle range wasn't important!  I only wished to point out that specific training in the outside ranges was important as well, and questioned why someone would stand and exchange at middle range if they didn't have to.

 As Ryan pointed out, long range is basically awareness and field experience coming into play.

---That is part of it.   But it can still be trained and practiced.  It deserves its own specific training attention and training.

 In real life application, the duelling aspects of knife happens too fast unless you have a longer weapon to keep the opponent at a farther distance than his own extended blade.

---Movement is movement.  It won't happen any faster than exchanges at middle range.  You also have more room and opportunity to use your footwork and body angling.

Why would one knife duel in long range if you already see it coming? You de-escalate , use an obstacle to gain escape....all kinds of avenues are open to you. It is also a better way to handle it in the court of law.

---I agree!  You only have to press the action at long range if absolutely necessary.   Otherwise get the h... out of there!  And knowing outside range knife skills may very well buy you enough time to get out of there without ever entering the "danger zone" of middle range.   But likewise, why would one stand and exchange at middle range if you have the opportunity to move out to long range?....where you can use an obstacle to gain escape or de-escalate?

Is there real life footage of this kind of knife fighting beyond a sport duel?

---I don't know.   Is there real life footage of someone using any of the FMA knife methods?

I've seen people severely cut on the hands and wrist, it doesn't even register -

---Then that would kind of negate the whole FMA idea of "defanging the snake"  or the more modern idea of "biomechanical cutting."  Unless, of course, those severe cuts weren't targeted very well.

 their forward pressure will overrun those who wish to play tag.

---That's where good footwork and mobility come in.   That's why fighting on the outside ranges needs its own emphasis.   If someone has only trained at the middle and close ranges, then they won't know how to deal with that forward pressure.

---By this comment, you make it sound like Sayoc doesn't spend a lot of time specifically training for the "outside" ranges.   Otherwise, "adjustment" would not be needed.  But then I may very well have misinterpreted your intent.

You misinterpreted my intent, correct.

---Then I offer my apologies!   :-)   So how much time does Sayoc Kali spend in specifically training the outside ranges?

Btw, how long have you trained in knife combatives?

---Off and on for at least 10 years now.   My first teacher was Rex early student of Guro Inosanto.  Rex was a knife maker and took special interest in the use of fighting knives.   I have also researched the knife combatives found in the historical western manuals from the middle ages and rennisance periods.   Another teacher I had for a short time was Dwight McLemore, who has done a lot of work with the Bowie knife methods.  I also have a pretty extensive video collection from various teachers.  Granted....working from videos is not the same as hands on instruction.  But once you have a good background and biomechanic in place....and some willing partners...., you can go a long way with videos.   :wink:


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: February 28, 2007, 10:49:28 PM »
Hey Rafael!

We may be communicating on opposite ends of the discussion, because in Sayoc, WE have the knife.

---I'm not sure what you mean here?  I think this whole thread has assumed that both the attacker and defender have a knife.

People get jacked in stairwells, in alleyways, on icy streets, on muddy fields, in theaters, in between cars, in ATMs, etc.... it starts in middle range. Even if the guy is far away, by the time you respond he is in middle range or closer.

---People also get jacked in parking lots, alleys, driveways, sidewalks, etc that allows them room to move out of middle range.  Why stay there if you don't have to?

We train so that long range is nullified, unless you are in duelling sport mode.

---How exactly is long range nullified?   If an opponent is  good at using footwork and mobility to stay at the outside ranges and pick off movements of your knife hand/arm, it seems to me you would have to play his game until you could force the exchange to close to middle range. 

When we are in long range duelling play, our students have been able to adjust quite well.

---By this comment, you make it sound like Sayoc doesn't spend a lot of time specifically training for the "outside" ranges.   Otherwise, "adjustment" would not be needed.  But then I may very well have misinterpreted your intent.

FYI, the "snake" tactics often referred to were developed for guys attacking you with a spear or pike.
Look at it from that historical context and it may open a few doors into one's training evolution.

---In DBMA terminology, "snake range" refers to the "precontact distance."  The name came from the way in which Eric Knaus would keep his stick moving in a "snaky" fashion as he stalked his opponent prior to closing. 


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: February 27, 2007, 11:41:14 PM »
Hey Rafael!

The middle range is where a person will most likely receive the most lethal wounds, so emphasis on the middle range is VERY important.

---And I would think that being able to stay out of middle range where you ARE most likely to suffer a lethal wound would be very important as well!  :-o

 One might be able to gain long range entry but in the real world, people tend to grab and keep the victim close so they can keep pumping the knife. The defender usually tries to grab the knife or try to escape the grabs of the attacker with the knife. All that happens in middle range.

---Another reason to stay out of the middle range "danger zone"! 

---I've come to look at it this way....the "outside range" is the area where you are outside the arc of the opponent's strike.  It includes snake and long range.  The alive hand is less of a factor.   Footwork and mobility are key components.   Strikes landing from this range are typically delivered with the arm nearly extended (even when targeting the head and torso).   Quick jabs, slashes and snap cuts predominate.  This is the realm of the "long-range" fighter and of "sport knife dueling".   The "inside range" is the  area where you are inside the arc of the opponent's strike.  It includes middle and close range.  The use of the alive hand is very important.  Mobility is less of a factor.  Strikes landing from this range are typically delivered with the arm bent (even when targeting the knife hand/arm).  Strong cuts and thrusts predominate.  This is the realm of the "tippy-tap" drills and self-defense oriented material.   The two approaches are distinct, but can blend and transition rather smoothly when practiced.   My idea that I have been putting out (which may be right or wrong) is that there has been too much emphasis on the "inside range" and not enough on the "outside range" in most traditional FMAs. 

---I don't know much about Sayoc Kali, but have heard lots of good things about it.   How much training and emphasis is given to fighting from the "outside range" in Sayoc?  Thanks!


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: February 27, 2007, 11:23:10 PM »
Hey Guro Crafty:

In knife fighting I think it important to remember what we in DBMA sometimes playfully call "sport knife dueling" is but one paradigm amongst many when it comes to knives and may not be one that the media and corto training has in mind. 

---Excellent point!   But wouldn't a well-rounded "knife fighter" be very familiar with both paradigms?

  When the stakes are for real, what percentage of actual cases where a knife is used fall into this category?  I'm guessing quite low. 

---Maybe, but then again all it takes is enough of a pause that allows a disengagement and 1 or 2 steps back.  This would then put you in the "outside" ranges which would allow for evasive footwork and movement.....outside of the "danger zone."  If you survive the initial attack at middle range, I could see things very easily transitioning  to this area.     But then I'm not that familiar with the facts of how real knife engagements have happened. 

Which brings us to a key point:  Most TT/flow training is only done at a very low intensity.  This is good and a necessary part of the installation process, but IMHO many people commit a major error by never upping the intensity from there, even those who spend years at it.

----That makes sense.   And I would add that many people likely never train to move in and out of the drills from the outside ranges rather than just standing at middle range the whole time.

  There is a whole bunch of DBMA Dog Catcher curriculum that I simply did not have the time to go into that I think is pretty durn sharp (Yes it will ge part of a future DBMA DVD  :lol: ) -- as the line went in a TV western of my youth, "no brag, just fact"  :-D  -- and I was able to develop this curriculum due to my years of training with Guro Inosanto and others.

---Looking forward to seeing that!   :-D

 the idea is to have things which define the pivotal instants in which a fight is decided.

---I think I see what you are saying.   Essentially....since the middle range exchanges in the "danger zone" are so pivotal to surviving a knife encouter they deserve special emphasis.

In closing, yes I know I have not addressed one of the key questions presented here-- that of how much time/what proportion of one's time should be spent on TT drills-- beyond saying that many people don't spend anywhere enough time on pressure testing.  I will add that many people also do plenty of pressure testing, but may lack a broad vocabulary with which to answer the questions presented.

---I agree.  Developing a broad vocabulary and then "pressure testing" that knowledge is important.   But do you feel that part of the vocabulary that people are neglecting is the ability to fight from the outside ranges?


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?
« on: February 27, 2007, 12:41:51 AM »
Hey Guys!

Good responses to this thread so far!   :-)   Everyone seems to agree that the middle range "tippy-tappy" drills have value.  So I would turn the question around and much emphasis should they receive?   Several posters have talked about being able to move in and out of the "tippy-tap" range fluidly.  But how much is this actually broken out as its own area of training?   Guro Crafty has pointed out how many stick fighters have found that they were lacking in the ability to close the gap effectively in order to use the middle range drills that they had spent so much time training.   I would posit that the same is likely true for  a whole lot of people doing knife training. 

It seems to me that many FMAs spend the majority of their knife training in middle range doing these "tippy-tappy" drills.   But when you watch actual knife sparring with padded training knives, little action happens at this range.  Most people that I have seen trying to "spar" this as realistically as possible end up trying to stay out of middle and close range as much as possible.  So...shouldn't more emphasis be placed on developing the "snake" and "long" range skills? 

I see it as being similar to some JKD groups' attitudes towards trapping.   Trapping was a big deal in the early years of JKD.  But now  many people have grappling backgrounds and empty-hand exchanges go quickly from kicking/punching to clinshing/grappling without pause in the "trapping" range.   Its not that trapping is ineffective or of no value, it just a matter of how much emphasis it receives.  It doesn't seem to receive as much emphasis now as it did in the past...depending of course on which group you train with.

So....given our modern ability to "spar" more safely while still being as "realistic" as possible with experiment and see what works and what actually happens on a higher percentage basis.....should the training emphasis given to middle range drills be reconsidered?


Martial Arts Topics / Re: MMA
« on: February 05, 2007, 11:04:07 PM »
I just got to watch it last night when it was rebroadcast on AFN.  I was a little disappointed as well.  Wasn't GSP supposed to defend his title against Matt Sera?   What happened to that?  The commentators never mentioned it and its not on the card for the March event.  I thought Silva's elbows were legal as well because they were "back" elbows that were horizontal to the floor and not the crushing downward elbows that Tony Jaa likes to use in his movies.  :-)   It seemed to me that Lutter was more than a bit off of his game after trying and failing to make weight.   Sanchez had no business being in the ring with Crop Cop.  That was a straight-up "highlight reel" fight...a gimmee for Crop Cop.   Did anyone else think it was ironic when Crop Cop entered the arena to the Pride theme song?  :-)  I thought the best fight of the event was the lightweights.   Hopefully organizations like Pride and UFC will start giving the smaller guys more air time. 


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Euro Martial Arts
« on: January 25, 2007, 10:04:03 PM »
I just recently purchased the Los Triques DVD and watched it yesterday.   What struck me is that when Guro Crafty demonstrates the "off side lead" and the "Salty Strike", the roof block used to cover the head on the way in is very similar to what the old western broadsword/saber systems as well as western singlestick calls a "hanging guard."  It is a roof block that has the tip of the stick aimed towards the opponent rather than to the side.   It also follows a principle from English Quarterstaff that keeps the staff directly above when "twirling" in order to protect the head.


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Euro Martial Arts
« on: January 18, 2007, 11:12:27 PM »
Oh yes!   This has been going on for quite awhile now and there are several groups that have gotten quite good.   A few years back I even tried my hand at translating some of the old "fechtbuchen" from the old German.   I dabbled for awhile with the German Longsword methods, sword and buckler, Kampfringen (grappling) and dolchfechten (dagger fighting).   There are many good websites available now and several excellent books that have been published.   Be sure and check out:


Martial Arts Topics / Re: MMA
« on: January 14, 2007, 10:04:25 PM »

I've heard that Randy Couture has come out of retirement to fight Tim Sylva for the UFC title?  Can someone confirm or deny?

---I heard the same.

Interesting match up!!! 

---I have mixed feelings about it.   Lets say RC wins.   Is he prepared to stick around and defend his title?   

I confess to routing for RC-- which is always bad for level-headed assessment.  That said, off the top of my head what occurs to me is that he uses a similar game to his first fight against Vitor Belfort:  High hands putting elbows in VB's striking trajectory, thus nullifying VB's blazing hand speed (at least at that point in his career)   Could this be a solution to Tim's reach, thus enabling a high line close to RC's strong suit in Greco-Roman structures instaed of getting sprawled as did

---Could work.   Could also take some damaging shots trying to get to the inside.

, , , what was that thick guy's name that Tim just beat?

---Jeff Monsoon


Martial Arts Topics / Re: WHERE IS THE FOOTWORK!?!
« on: December 29, 2006, 10:19:26 PM »
Maybe it has something to do with the fighters having the shoot and take down so prominently on their minds.   The striker is worried about defending against the shoot and has his sprawl all set to go.  So he doesn't want to be caught in the middle of a footwork pattern or with his feet close together.   The grappler is looking for a gap in the striker's defense so he can shoot in suddenly.  So he isn't moving around a lot as he stalks his prey. 


« on: December 23, 2006, 10:23:06 PM »
  Have you discussed this with RMAX or Torque Athletics?   Have you brought this up in the RMAX forum?   In the past others have had similar issues and it was addressed promptly.   The president of Torque Athletics even personally replied to some posts.  They had a run of product with manufacturing defects at one point.  As far as I could tell, things were worked out to everyone's satisfaction.  Keith

As my final word on this subject, let me point out that what you read above was part of my very first post on this topic.  You chose not to answer the simple and reasonable question I asked.   For some reason you decided that I was some kind of RMAX groupie and that clubbells were my "sacred cow" and chose to see me as the enemy.  This is not true.  I don't even use clubbells currently.   My apologies if anything I have posted has seemed like a personal attack.  That was not what was intended. 


« on: December 22, 2006, 10:25:19 PM »
Hey CSW!

Call me a cynic but I absolutely do not believe that if you had a Ford Pinto 2-3 decades ago that had a possibility of the gas tank exploding from a routine rear end collision, or if you had 4 Goodyear tires on a Ford Explorer during that issue some years back, that you would be all so okay about it.

---Not if I knew it was a widespread problem.  See....I would have done a little research into it before going off.  That has been my continuing point, which you seem to keep missing.  :-(

As of this moment you are the only person on multiple forums who seems to think that the equipment manufacturer is some sort of victim.  Every other person seems to have appreciated the "heads up." 

---Multiple forums?   Seems I said something about a "crusade" and "an axe to grind"???  I never said the manufacturer was some sort of victim.  I only asked if you had actually contacted the manufacturer to see what was up.   All that multiple posting on multiple forums and you never bothered to contact Torque Athletics about the problem?

Regarding the RMAX forum, please help me to get this straight.  You are saying there has been some sort of ongoing discussion about this basic problem on the RMAX forum, yet this is the response of the RMAX President/CEO to me:

In 4 years this is the first time we hear such statement.

---So you HAVE contacted RMAX?   Why have you been implying that you didn't?  Why didn't you point that out earlier?

So which is it?

---I don't know.  Why not do your own research?   Go to the RMAX forum and do a search for the topic.   Or post and see what others have to say.

  For some reason you seem to be taking my ire with the product personally, something I used to frequently see shareholders get similarly defensive about. 

---I'm not taking your "ire" personally.  I was just trying to point out some reasonable questions. 

 It’s simply the actual structural issue of the Clubbell itself that is the issue.  You cannot spin that out of play with anybody who has their eye remotely on the ball.

---I'm not trying to spin anything.   I simply asked if you had contacted the manufacture about the possibility that the problem had already been fixed!!!   Isn't that reasonable?   Maybe it hasn't been fixed!  I don't know.  I was making what seemed to me to be a reasonable suggestion.  You seem to be the one to me that is taking things pretty personally. 

I am quite comfortable that my reaction is appropriate in light of how the cards played out. 

---Let me  get this straight.  Maybe I am wrong.  But going only by what you have posted in the past this is the impression I have.   You had a problem with your clubbells that was very concerning to you.   So rather than contact RMAX (the distributor and designer) or Torque Athletics (the manufacturer) about the problem to see if it was an isolated incident, a manufacturing defect, or a design problem that may or may not have already been corrected....instead you chose to simply post in multiple forums to tell everyone you could to never buy this product.  Again, quite possibly I am wrong...but that is the impression you have given in this thread.   That seems neither reasonable, nor a reaction that I myself would be comfortable with. 

 I sincerely hope that Torque and RMAX fix this problem, and if me being out my Clubbells investment $ results in this product being improved, then so be it.  If my actions cause them to do exactly that, then it will have all been worthwhile to me.

---How can your actions of posting in multiple forums (without actually contacting RMAX or Torque Athletics...or maybe you have and for some reason haven't told us this?) telling people not to buy their product result in their product being improved?  I'm sorry CSW.  I never intended for this discussion to go on in this vein.  But you seem to continue to ignore my simple points.  I don't feel you are being reasonable about this, so I will respectfully decline any further discussion on the topic.


« on: December 21, 2006, 10:35:09 PM »
Hey CSW!

There was a reason I said the following in my first paragraph: "I know this will offend some, because the Clubbell is their sacred cow..."

---I am not offended, nor is the clubbell my "sacred cow."   Your original post just did not seem very balanced or fair-minded.

I have provided you folks with true information about my first-hand experience with Clubbells.  As with all things in life, each person is free to believe or disbelieve as they choose.  That will, of course, not alter reality

---I have no problem with that.  But there is a difference between saying..."this is the negative experience I had, so others can be cautious", and going on what seems like a personal crusade to discredit someone's whole product line. 

I have no obligation to become a member of the RMAX forum.  I am not an RMAX groupie, nor do I have any desire to be one.  That is like saying that if I bought a Glock that did not work, my recourse should be to join the Glock Talk forum and commiserate there with others whose Glocks did not work.  That is certainly not a course of action I am interested in following. 

---I didn't mean to imply you had to be an "RMAX groupie."   But if you had a problem with your Glock, wouldn't you take that problem to the gun shop that sold it to you (in this case RMAX that sold you the clubbell)?.....wouldn't you take it to the company that manufactured the Glock (in this case Torque Athletics that manufactured the clubbell)????   That's all I was asking or suggesting!   If you had a problem with your Glock would you run out and tell everyone you could find that they should NEVER EVER buy a Glock?  Despite the fact that many people have used and are using Glocks (or clubbells) without any problems!?  Its one thing to say "be aware of this potential problem" and quite another to say "NEVER EVER buy this product!" 

  My secondary, certainly uphill battle goal, is to seek their recall by the Consumer Product Safety Commission.  Stranger things have been successful and I certainly have the time to spend on trying to make it happen.  Maybe with the Dems in power next month I will be able to find an interested government employee.

---Seems like I said something before about "an axe to grind."   Sounding more and more like that is true.

It's a shame actually because otherwise they are great pieces of weight equipment.  But no matter how much you liked a particular car, if you knew it to be a lemon you would not buy it, right?  Well at least 999 out of 1000 people probably wouldn't.

---I pointed out the fact that Torque Athletics evidently had a run of some manufacturing defects, and that I had thought they had corrected it.  You aren't interested in that?  You aren't interested in the possibility of having your "lemon"  replaced with a newer version?   Did you even TRY to work out your problem with RMAX or Torque Athletics? 

I am curious.  Why is it that I am supposed to keep this product defect information some sort of confidential matter between me and RMAX/Torque Athletics?  With all due respect it sounds like you have an interest in promoting the use of Clubbells.

---No one said you had to keep anything confidential!   I simply asked if you had made any attempt to work out your problem with the people involved before you went on your crusade against clubbells!   I think that was a reasonable question!  I'm not promoting anything.  But I do think that clubbells are a good training aide, especially for people into swinging sticks!  :-)

  Perhaps in your world I am supposed to be groveling to RMAX/Torque Athletics for my money back, but in my world I don't roll like that.  It's a good thing we are not talking about a gun that jams because it sounds to me like you would sweep that under the rug to get your money back.

---In my world I don't go out bad-mouthing someone's company and their product based on a single incident and without doing a little research and investigation into whether or not they just might have already taken action to CORRECT the problem already!  If your gun is jamming, is it because of an essential design flaw, or because that run of magazines had a manufacturing defect that is easily corrected.   Wouldn't you want to know????


« on: December 20, 2006, 10:53:26 PM »
With all due respect, you sound like someone "with an axe to grind", and I am suspect of an ulterior motive.  Have you discussed this with RMAX or Torque Athletics?   Have you brought this up in the RMAX forum?   In the past others have had similar issues and it was addressed promptly.   The president of Torque Athletics even personally replied to some posts.  They had a run of product with manufacturing defects at one point.  As far as I could tell, things were worked out to everyone's satisfaction.  Most pieces of equipment will have stress points that are more vulnerable to failure than other points.   The same is true of traditional Olympic weights, and people still use those regularly. 


Martial Arts Topics / Re: MMA
« on: December 19, 2006, 10:26:17 PM »
Crafty & Pretty Kitty,
  Any chance we will see some DBMAA Board shorts in 2007?  :-D  I for one would buy them!  Anyone else?


I'd buy them!  :-)


Martial Arts Topics / Re: The Snaggletooth Variations:
« on: December 16, 2006, 09:40:21 PM »
Sounds great!  Can't wait to see it!


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Panantukan & Kali Tudo
« on: November 29, 2006, 10:43:45 PM »
Hey Guro Crafty!

Any chance we can talk you into commenting on two things?

1.  Your time with Manong Kalimba and how what you saw differed from Guro Inosanto's Panantukan.

2.   What kind of things we can expect to see in future installments of the "Kali Tudo" series.



Martial Arts Topics / Re: Panantukan & Kali Tudo
« on: November 26, 2006, 11:01:55 PM »
Greetings all!

Actually IMHO it goes the other way around-- boxing is an off-shoot of Panatukan.? (I suggest you go back and find the subtantial thread on this question-- I think you will find it well worth your time)?

---Thanks for the link provided below.? ?When I first started frequenting the forum, I did searches on several topics and discovered the thread you note.? Lots of good info in that thread.? :-)? I also was around when the article by Ms. Howe first appeared many years ago and hung onto it for a long time.? ?It was definately very interesting and stimulated lots of thought and future research.? ?Not long ago I actually did a fair amount of research into the old style of western? boxing by searching out various old boxing manuals at the Library of Congress in D.C.? ?Not to belabor a point or bring up old topics, but I am fairly comfortable with the idea that the shift from the old "John L. Sullivan" structure to the modern boxing structure was a natural result of evolution of fighting styles, changes in rule systems, and the use of gloves.? ?I also think that filipino fighting methods may of had an influence on that evolution, but how much of one I am not sure.? ?I haven't had the exposure to the native arts that you have had.? But I don't think that the filipino methods can be given total credit for the change.? ?I think there were many factors involved.? But that's neither here nor there.? :-)

 As a teacher my sense of things is that if someone installs boxing first there is a real risk that they will never truly operate in Panantukan mode.? My preference is to establish double stick first and then simply fight EH with those movements.? Equally valid are knife based Panantukan movements, the double stick movements are simply my personal preference alathough of course I do use some of the knife based movements.

---Good points.?

Although some of my students have moments where they apply KT in the context of a DB fight, to be precise the basis for DB KT has been in my own EH sparring and in that of my students, especially Lonely Dog, DBMA Lakan Guro Jeff Brown (who has lots of other credentials as well) and C-DB Greg Brown (who currently is thinking about what name he wants).? My own experience has principally been at the R1 Gym and the code there quite properly excludes video cameras, so there is no footage of my research.? That said, IMHO Panatukan has considerable merit.

---It occurred to me that a good person to comment on this topic would be Erik Paulson.? He would seem to have a good background in Panantukan, and he is a notable shoot fighting teacher and competitor as well.? ?It would be interesting to hear if he has worked on blending the two at all.? Does anyone know him well enough to get feedback??

I suspect where the doubt originates for many people is that they have not hit people with sticks or knives with its movements, so when sparring EH they lack a certain understanding of application.? Thus efforts to apply it become "graftings" onto different idiomatic movements i.e. western boxing.

---That may be the case.? ?But I'd also like to point out that my limited exposure to Panantukan has given me the impression that an instructor typically starts out teaching the basic boxing biomechanics and going through the standard boxing punching methods first.? ?That seems to be how Rick Faye approaches it.? But very likely the assumption is that the student has already worked on the stick methods and has some background.? ?I've also formed the impression that there are two ways to go.? ?You can use the typical Panantukan entries and finish with a punching combo, or you can use the typical Panantukan entries and finish with a joint lock, takedown, grapple, etc.? ?The first looks much like western boxing, while the second looks much like silat, while the transition to Dumog looks much like MMA.? ?But it seems to me, that successful use of Panantukan in the ring would take the first approach....where setting up a good punching combo is the emphasis, and a solid knowledge of modern western boxing wouldn't be bad thing!? :-)

As you correctly note, many points are not addressed in our KT DVD.? ?I chose to emphasize footwork first-- which for most people requires quite a bit of focus in its own right.? ? Also, I wanted to communicate effectively with the MMA audience as well, and felt that putting in things such as destructions on top of the footwork would dilute the focus.?

---No doubt.? A good strategy for an introduction to the topic.? ?Can you give us an idea of what you have in mind for future installments in the Kali Tudo series?

 Limb destructions DO appear in DBMA's KT, but perhaps in a different way than you may be expecting :wink:

---Ah!? ?The teaser!? :-)? ?How are they different??

Although there are/were good grappling methods in some of the FMA, my sense of things is that the modern MMA fighter takes grappling to a different level and that this requires adaptation on the part of Panantukan.? Modern MMA is full of people who drift shot under high line responses to strikes for single leg takedowns, double leg takedowns, fireman's carry throws, etc.? Against someone skillfully versed in such skills, to go for a noogie (venerable ancient term of my youth long ago in New York City) of the bicep may have a risky cost/benefit ratio.

---Excellent point!? And I thought of that as well.? What I had in mind for limb destructions were things like catching the biceps with a good elbow as you come out of a clinch, waiting until the opponent is fatigued and is throwing some sloppy punches to launch gunting destructions to his punches, using the split entry to close to the clinch, etc.? ?As far as some of the other aspects....using some of the foot trapping and sweeping methods from the clinch when the opponent is off-balanced, using some of the Dumog arm control manipulations out of the clinch to put the opponent down or set him up for headbutts, elbow strikes, etc.? ?What I don't see working in the ring is the "traditional" Panantukan approach of using multiple beats as an entry (split entry off of his jab to an inward gunting, trap & backhand, to elbow strike at biceps), which transitions to several body manipulations prior to the final takedown.? But, like the varous Hubud drills, (and as you discuss on your DVDs in relation to the stick methods)? I think this falls into the category of things that are part of the "art" and that when trained gives you the ability to know when they fit into a real situation....teaching more "flow" than actual application.?

---Like you, Crafty Dog, I am getting a little on the more "mature" side to consider stepping into the ring myself. :-0? But I have a nephew back home that is training in a small MMA gym and competing on the local circuit.? ?His gym emphasizes BJJ more than anything and when I saw him last he was weak on the standing elements.? ?When I get home from Iraq I'm hoping to start teaching him what I know of Panantukan and your Kali Tudo to see what we can make work in the ring.? ?It will be a fun experiment.? :-)? ?


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Panantukan & Kali Tudo
« on: November 22, 2006, 10:38:59 PM »
Guro Crafty:

 A bit of my footage with him may appear in the upcoming? DBMA "Kali Tudo 2: Striking and Clinch".?

---That sounds great!  Both seeing the footage, hearing about what you learned there, and the upcoming Kali Tudo release!   Any general timeframe yet for when the new DVD will be available?

 Poor lineage historian that I am, I am unable to break down clearly the different feeder systems of Inosanto Blend EH.? ?Much was familiar to me, but there were some very interesting differences too.

--Its always seemed to me that it is best to say that the Panantukan that Guro Inosanto teaches is uniquely his own.   I also have the impression from what I've heard and read in various places that the main influences were likely John Lacoste and Lucky Lucaylucay.  Anyone else have a different impression? 


I will get to your questions later.

---Thanks!   Looking forward to your feedback!   Can you also post about  some of the differences between Guro Inosanto's Panantukan and what you saw on your trip to PI?


Martial Arts Topics / Panantukan & Kali Tudo
« on: November 21, 2006, 11:21:50 PM »
Greetings all!!!

Panantukan is my favorite aspect of the FMA's.  I love the way that the FMA empty-hand material is grafted so effectively onto a western boxing base.   I recently purchased and have worked thru the Kali Tudo videos and was impressed with the content.  I'm looking to more installments in this series!   Having also seen and worked on the stick material, I know that the dog brother approach to some extent is to take the "traditional" drills and training methods and put them into the crucible of the fight and see what shakes out.   I've been impressed with the training drills that are presented on the stick videos that are obviously a "been there and done that" summary of what works.   So my question is this......

How much of the Panantukan material has been found to hold up in a real fighting situation in the dog brother experience?   What has not been found to be reliably effective?   On the Kali Tudo DVDs I didn't see limb destructions discussed.   Seems to me that this would be one aspect that would show up pretty well and really help the cage fighter.   After all, its very acceptable to pound a guy's quad with round kicks to reduce his mobility and kicking ability....why not pound a guy's biceps with elbow strikes to reduce his ability to punch? 

Anyway....I realize that I have managed to write a rather rambling post.  :-)    The main thing I am interested is seeing discussed is the relationship between "traditional" Panantukan and the Kali Tudo approach to empty-hand fighting.   Thanks!


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Seminar: Albuquerque, NM Oct 28-29
« on: October 25, 2006, 10:46:35 PM »
Man!  If I was home in El Paso I would be there!   :-D   Unfortunately, I'm in Iraq right now so won't be able to make it.  Maybe next year? 

Martial Arts Topics / Re: FMA Guro Shot to Death
« on: September 15, 2006, 12:37:39 PM »
Yes that is Top Dog.? Ahhhhh, copyright?


Isn't that from the "Grandfathers Speak" video?


Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dog (Canine) Training
« on: September 15, 2006, 12:33:13 PM »
Woof Gentlemen:

What to do when a dog directly defies your authority?

I have three Shibas, which have personalities similar to their larger cousins the Akitas.   As puppies part of the training involved using a "takedown."   The dogs were never struck.   Instead, when they would not listen to commands or defied my authority (meaning did not acknowledge me as the "alpha")  I would grab them by the scruff of the neck, pin them to the floor, lean over on top of them, and "growl" in their ear.  If they struggled or complained, the position was held until they finally relaxed and resolved to wait me "submitted."  This is similar to what their mother would have done when they were small pups and not behaving well.   This was started as "routine" training.   When we first got the pup we would do the "takedown" every day and hold it for at least 10 to 15 minutes.   This quickly tells the pup who is in charge without any hitting or yelling.  Now, going back and trying to use this technique on an adult dog who did not have the training as a pup may be tricky.   Especially a dog like an Akita!  :-)


Martial Arts Topics / Re: New to the forums..
« on: September 08, 2006, 01:08:01 PM »
Hi All!

I've been lurking for awhile and just recently joined.? ?I also sprung for a DBMAA membership.? I bought the original series of RCSF many years ago when they first came out.? ?I also had the honor and opportunity to attend a seminar with Top Dog when he was visiting his friend Dave Wink in Maryland a few years back.? ?I've done several different martial arts thru the years.? My main focus has been FMA and Wing Chun.? ?More recently I've been working on Scott Sonnon's (RMAX) material and it has led me back to an interest in FMA and what the Dog Brothers are doing.? I had plans to start a study group and really get back into the material again, but Uncle Sam had other ideas.? ?I'm a PM&R doc in the US Army and I'm soon to go to Iraq as a general medical officer with a 1st Cav unit out of Ft. Hood.? ?I recently purchased the Kali Tudo and Die Less Often series.? ?I've watched them both....good stuff!? I'm hoping the group of medics I will be working with on a daily basis will have some individuals interested in training with me....and of course that we will actually have the opportunity to train!? :-)? ? I'm living in El Paso now, so when I return from Iraq in a year I hope to look up Salty Dog in Sante Fe.? ?Anyway....a big "woof" to all!

Keith P. Myers

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Surfboard Wax for stick grip?
« on: September 08, 2006, 06:21:38 AM »
Hi Guys!

New to posting  to the forum, but been lurking for awhile.  I have tried different types of tape in the past.  The tape sold in sporting goods stores for use on baseball/softball bats turned out to be way to messy.   It left a sticky residue all over my hands.  The padded tape used for tennis rackets was OK, but didn't seem to hold up very well.  I eventually resorted to just the standard old white athletic tape used to wrap ankles.  It provides a good non-slip surface, and when it starts getting dirty or worn you just add another layer on top.


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