Greetings all!
Actually IMHO it goes the other way around-- boxing is an off-shoot of Panatukan.? (I suggest you go back and find the subtantial thread on this question-- I think you will find it well worth your time)?
---Thanks for the link provided below.? ?When I first started frequenting the forum, I did searches on several topics and discovered the thread you note.? Lots of good info in that thread.?
? I also was around when the article by Ms. Howe first appeared many years ago and hung onto it for a long time.? ?It was definately very interesting and stimulated lots of thought and future research.? ?Not long ago I actually did a fair amount of research into the old style of western? boxing by searching out various old boxing manuals at the Library of Congress in D.C.? ?Not to belabor a point or bring up old topics, but I am fairly comfortable with the idea that the shift from the old "John L. Sullivan" structure to the modern boxing structure was a natural result of evolution of fighting styles, changes in rule systems, and the use of gloves.? ?I also think that filipino fighting methods may of had an influence on that evolution, but how much of one I am not sure.? ?I haven't had the exposure to the native arts that you have had.? But I don't think that the filipino methods can be given total credit for the change.? ?I think there were many factors involved.? But that's neither here nor there.?
As a teacher my sense of things is that if someone installs boxing first there is a real risk that they will never truly operate in Panantukan mode.? My preference is to establish double stick first and then simply fight EH with those movements.? Equally valid are knife based Panantukan movements, the double stick movements are simply my personal preference alathough of course I do use some of the knife based movements.
---Good points.?
Although some of my students have moments where they apply KT in the context of a DB fight, to be precise the basis for DB KT has been in my own EH sparring and in that of my students, especially Lonely Dog, DBMA Lakan Guro Jeff Brown (who has lots of other credentials as well) and C-DB Greg Brown (who currently is thinking about what name he wants).? My own experience has principally been at the R1 Gym and the code there quite properly excludes video cameras, so there is no footage of my research.? That said, IMHO Panatukan has considerable merit.
---It occurred to me that a good person to comment on this topic would be Erik Paulson.? He would seem to have a good background in Panantukan, and he is a notable shoot fighting teacher and competitor as well.? ?It would be interesting to hear if he has worked on blending the two at all.? Does anyone know him well enough to get feedback??
I suspect where the doubt originates for many people is that they have not hit people with sticks or knives with its movements, so when sparring EH they lack a certain understanding of application.? Thus efforts to apply it become "graftings" onto different idiomatic movements i.e. western boxing.
---That may be the case.? ?But I'd also like to point out that my limited exposure to Panantukan has given me the impression that an instructor typically starts out teaching the basic boxing biomechanics and going through the standard boxing punching methods first.? ?That seems to be how Rick Faye approaches it.? But very likely the assumption is that the student has already worked on the stick methods and has some background.? ?I've also formed the impression that there are two ways to go.? ?You can use the typical Panantukan entries and finish with a punching combo, or you can use the typical Panantukan entries and finish with a joint lock, takedown, grapple, etc.? ?The first looks much like western boxing, while the second looks much like silat, while the transition to Dumog looks much like MMA.? ?But it seems to me, that successful use of Panantukan in the ring would take the first approach....where setting up a good punching combo is the emphasis, and a solid knowledge of modern western boxing wouldn't be bad thing!?
As you correctly note, many points are not addressed in our KT DVD.? ?I chose to emphasize footwork first-- which for most people requires quite a bit of focus in its own right.? ? Also, I wanted to communicate effectively with the MMA audience as well, and felt that putting in things such as destructions on top of the footwork would dilute the focus.?
---No doubt.? A good strategy for an introduction to the topic.? ?Can you give us an idea of what you have in mind for future installments in the Kali Tudo series?
Limb destructions DO appear in DBMA's KT, but perhaps in a different way than you may be expecting
---Ah!? ?The teaser!?
? ?How are they different??
Although there are/were good grappling methods in some of the FMA, my sense of things is that the modern MMA fighter takes grappling to a different level and that this requires adaptation on the part of Panantukan.? Modern MMA is full of people who drift shot under high line responses to strikes for single leg takedowns, double leg takedowns, fireman's carry throws, etc.? Against someone skillfully versed in such skills, to go for a noogie (venerable ancient term of my youth long ago in New York City) of the bicep may have a risky cost/benefit ratio.
---Excellent point!? And I thought of that as well.? What I had in mind for limb destructions were things like catching the biceps with a good elbow as you come out of a clinch, waiting until the opponent is fatigued and is throwing some sloppy punches to launch gunting destructions to his punches, using the split entry to close to the clinch, etc.? ?As far as some of the other aspects....using some of the foot trapping and sweeping methods from the clinch when the opponent is off-balanced, using some of the Dumog arm control manipulations out of the clinch to put the opponent down or set him up for headbutts, elbow strikes, etc.? ?What I don't see working in the ring is the "traditional" Panantukan approach of using multiple beats as an entry (split entry off of his jab to an inward gunting, trap & backhand, to elbow strike at biceps), which transitions to several body manipulations prior to the final takedown.? But, like the varous Hubud drills, (and as you discuss on your DVDs in relation to the stick methods)? I think this falls into the category of things that are part of the "art" and that when trained gives you the ability to know when they fit into a real situation....teaching more "flow" than actual application.?
---Like you, Crafty Dog, I am getting a little on the more "mature" side to consider stepping into the ring myself. :-0? But I have a nephew back home that is training in a small MMA gym and competing on the local circuit.? ?His gym emphasizes BJJ more than anything and when I saw him last he was weak on the standing elements.? ?When I get home from Iraq I'm hoping to start teaching him what I know of Panantukan and your Kali Tudo to see what we can make work in the ring.? ?It will be a fun experiment.?
? ?
Keith
