What make Thornton think Kali is dead??

[TomFurman]

I give credit to Matt Thornton for expressing his training values insofar as active, resisting, opponents are needed. This, however has been around for thousands of years. The TRAINING METHODS vary and that is probably where the disagreement starts. However, his organization kind of fell apart, and people like Rodney King for one, is taking a more gradient approach and stressing technique and returning to his roots (Certified from Fairfax via an older Thai Master).

This following quote is from the SBG section of the Underground forum on www.mma.tv--
"Regards Kali, yes I think the vast majority of what I have seen labeled as FMA is completely absurd. Another in a long line of dead pattern traditional Martial Arts. I was once asked about training in more traditional Martial Arts weapons, and my response was. . . . yes, some people like to practice those things just as some people dig civil war reanactments. It's just not my thing."

Oddly enough, two years ago, Matt tried to promote his own stickfighting method, "SMAC" or Stickfighting Methods and Counters. I guess he is innovative enough to outdo thousands of years of sparring, fighting, blood, death, and honor, for many, many, cultures. Amazing. The Alive vs Dead argument, and the Street vs Ring debate have been beaten to death on forums since the internet began. I just don't think he gets it. If he can't watch Crafty and TopDog on Kali-Tudo (tm), and absorb their conversation,...then there is no hope. Some people never learn. I just guess a Matt/SMAC vs TopDog/Kali Gathering match might allow theory to hit the concrete. One view of the Tom Kier Stickgrappling DVD is sobering enough for anyone of average IQ.  Oh well, Rant over.

[bjung]

it's all about the benjamins...
does he really think kali is dead or is this just his marketing scheme?

i think i seriously dislike the term dead pattern. who coined this term, and to what end?

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof All:

I've had my internet dueling keyboard sessions with Matt over the last few years and on occasion we butted heads pretty strongly.  I certainly didn't care for his crew and him parking on Guro Inosanto's forum a some years back to diss his work and push theirs, nor for certain comments that seemed to me inappropriately derogatory, but I suspect we have both moved on from that.  He's a bright guy, produces some good BJJ/MMA people and has amazing typing endurance!      Also, I must credit those dueling keyboard sessions as playing their role in getting me to put out our Kali Tudo DVD and writing the article that become the Black Belt cover piece

Personally I seek to apply Guro Inosanto's advice of "Be the temperature, not the thermometer."  Sometimes I play with calling those of us who include the training that he mocks " we the living dead" and calling the relevant portions of our training "dead patterns" as in "OK, lets do some dead pattern training!"

I figure he does what he likes and we do what we like and that what he thinks of us is none of our business.

The Adventure continues,
CD

[sting]

Oddly enough, two years ago, Matt tried to promote his own stickfighting method, "SMAC" or Stickfighting Methods and Counters. I guess he is innovative enough to outdo thousands of years of sparring, fighting, blood, death, and honor, for many, many, cultures.

... snip ...
I just guess a Matt/SMAC vs TopDog/Kali Gathering match might allow theory to hit the concrete. One view of the Tom Kier Stickgrappling DVD is sobering enough for anyone of average IQ.  Oh well, Rant over.

I don't think that martial arts systems passed on by those that have never used the techniques in real (combat, self-defense) or even semi-real (hard sparring)  represent the combat knowledge of all of time.   We can study and practice some of the techniques, but the further it is removed from personal experience, the more it resembles an enjoyable dance of repetition.

As you say, it would be a fine test of the Thornton's material against one of the most proficient stick fighters (Top Dog) we have known.  A more reliable task is to send a few students to a several of the Dog Brother Gatherings to gain some experience with people outside of their class.  An average response is a better gauge than a contest between two of the top players.  What good is a system if it is only suitable to the founder ?

[Crafty_Dog]

Lets be sure we are not mistaken for putting out whose style can beat up whose style vibrations , , ,

[arkangel]

A more reliable task is to send a few students to a several of the Dog Brother Gatherings to gain some experience with people outside of their class.  An average response is a better gauge than a contest between two of the top players.  What good is a system if it is only suitable to the founder ?

very good point

[Crafty_Dog]

Again, I don't want there a style vs. style thing getting started here. 

Matt is free to go about things as he sees fit for him without negative commentary from us and likewise we should be free to go about things as seems best for us without negative commentary from him.

[watchdog]

I've had a chance to train a little bit with Matt Thornton and some of the people that were affiliated with him in the past.  I think that they all have some good things to offer and I've enjoyed learning from them.  I have not trained in Thornton's stickfighting methods, so I can't speak to it from personal experience.  However, I would note that he has credited Burt Richardson for the stickfighting curriculum.  Burt, as you probably know, was one of the original Dog Brothers.  So, it stands to reason that DBMA has probably had some influence on Thornton's approach to stickfighting.

[Crafty_Dog]

To be precise, Matt has often and openly credited our first series as being a big inflence on him.  I take other of his comments to mean that this is not the case with our material subsequent to the first series.