Rules of Engagement

[Crafty_Dog]

What is worth fighting for?  What are our ROE? (Rules Of Engagement)

---------------------------------------------

Last night (Wed 10 Sep), in a small pub near Durban, two groups of men were watching the 2010 Fifa World Cup qualifying game between England and Croatia. By the end of the evening, three men had been shot dead and two others critically wounded. The whole sorry argument started over the size of one man's dick.

The shooting took place at the Merseyside Restaurant and Bar at the Queensmead Mall in Durban's Umbilo suburb. According to online reports on News24 and iol.co.za a police officer, speaking on condition of anonymity, said: "The white man went to the toilet and an Indian guy followed him. While in the urinal, the Indian man told the white man that his [the Indian guy's] penis was bigger than his. The white man left the urinal and told his friends about what had happened and this is when the argument started. At some stage, some of the men went outside and there was a scuffle. One group returned to the tavern to watch the game and the other group remained outside," the source said.

"The men outside then went to their cars, opened their boots and returned to the tavern where they opened fire on the five men." A police spokesperson said the armed men had entered the pub and picked out the five men they'd argued with in a "precision style".

The policeman also said the shooters casually exited the tavern, jumped into their vehicles and left. The three victims, aged between 30 and 55, died on the spot. Another two were rushed to a local hospital in a critical condition.

Comment: Whoever said "Size doesn't matter" was wrong.

[Maxx]

For some reason I doubt that's what it was over. The could have been a way to spark the fight to the killing but I doubt that some guy looked over in a Urinal and commented on his penis.

I have been with friends at clubs who (Later To My Knowledge) Had made up stories in order for us to engage another group of guys.

This was my favorite.

A Old Friend of mine told us almost the same story except left cocks out. I guess some guy had been eye balln him for awhile. He said he walked into the bathroom and he was confronted by 2 guys and one of them being the guy that was eye balln him.

He came out and told this tale to us and in turn rallyed up to of my rather big friends. That sparked the whole drunkn engagement and Do you know how hard it is to try and talk in a club, While 2 big dudes are in your face asking you WTF are you and your homeboy F'n with their friend? Needless to say that even when you try and say "That didnt happen" everything comes out like F U and fist and feet start flying.

I later found out that this was all drunk talk and that guy never even stepped foot into the bathroom.

Some people do wild things when they are drunk and have no excuse. If this is Dublin and there was booze and a game, It could have been any reason for this stupid act.

[Crafty_Dog]

There wisdom in what you say.  Do note though that it was Durban South Africa and not Dublin Ireland. 

[G M]

Don't go to stupid places and do stupid things with stupid people. Barroom brawling would be all three.

[Maxx]

There wisdom in what you say.  Do note though that it was Durban South Africa and not Dublin Ireland. 

Crap. Then I read it to fast.hahaah I thought it was Dublin.

[peregrine]

What is worth fighting for?  What are our ROE? (Rules Of Engagement)

Thought provoking question.

Moral
Legal
Are they the same?

Each persons world view offers them their own perspective on what augments an altercation to going physical.
In the simplest terms a physical attack on myself or of an immediate family member in my presence deserves a response. Whether it be flight, fight or a combination.

What levels of force?
Only that which is deemed necessary to stop the immediate threat, that is escalated appropriately. See levels of force.

What constitutes a preemptive strike?
Risk to Reward. Once the situation is deemed unavoidable and deescalation is not possible by negotiation or avoidance. Likelihood increases with size disparity, or number disparity.


The news article illustrates a few noteworthy points.
The particular one that comes to my mind was, there was an altercation. One party left and the other stayed.
For myself if there is an altercation, I make it a point to leave the area immediately before someone goes to their vehicle to get a weapon, bad guy rethinks what occurred and cannot accept losing face, or bad guy comes back with back up.
I've had friends who refused to leave as they were not the one's 'at fault'...I say bull pucky and leave making sure people in charge know I have left to avoid further problems.

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof Peregrine:

I agree that moral and legal standards may well not be the same.

I would add to the analytical mix is not only the provocation/intimidation/threat/attack but its context.  Is it "intra-tribal" i.e. within your social circles/networks/someone known to you/traceable by you or is it in some anonymous context? 

A month or so ago, at the hotel swimming pool where we have a membership, while sitting in the jacuzzi a heavily tattooed gangmember joined us with his woman and my then daughter (just turned 6) asked him about his tatoos and why he wasn't worried the water would wash his tattoos off.  There was some awkwardness as his women said that they could NEVER be washed off and that was why one should not get tattoos.  Without realizing it I was staring at his tatts (about 7 of them had naked women with great breasts) as well as devils, gang names and such and he aked me what I was looking at.  I said sorry, I had just been staring into space, and about 90 seconds later told my daughter it was time to go.

My son is still at the age where he thinks dad can kick the world's butt, so I made sure to tell him the story that night as I tucked him into bed and explain why I had left.

[Noctivagant]

Hi All,

I'm certainly no expert but I have worked in the Alcohol Industry for nearly 20 years in Australia and have employed security for my venues for 17 years. With new guards I generally tell them there are 3 main reasons people escalate to violence.

1. Ego (eg you pushed me, split a drink on me, looked at my girl etc)

2. Obligation ( eg You were threatening my friend, brother etc)

3. Survival ( eg You tried to rob me, King hit me)

For my guards I tell them this because if you stay alert you can usually head off actual violence with scenario 1 and 2 because it is nearly always proceeded with verbal interaction and some form of what we call push and shove.

I also try to instill in them the fact that their rules of engagement should always be due to scenario 2 or 3 and never due to Ego. It sounds simple but the fact is many Guards in that environment often cause an incident because they allow their Ego to be a firestarter.

Similarly I believe that although the vast majority of Alcohol related violence is Ego based it often does escalate to a Survival scenario very quickly and regardless of how stupid the root cause was it can turn deadly in the blink of an eye.

Regards,

Gary

[Bambi]

Crap. Then I read it to fast.hahaah I thought it was Dublin.

Have you spent much time in Dublin 

[Crafty_Dog]

I'm thinking this could be a racous good time, but certainly a violation of "The 3 S Rule"  

www.cagevscons.com

*Fights based upon the concept of Convicts vs. LEOs, military, COs etc.  
*Various hip hop acts such as "Glock 40"
*Tattoos
*various celebrities such as Danny "Machete" Trejo
*Promoted by "Felony Fights"

What could go wrong?!?  

[G M]

I'll be money that the searches to get into the venue are much more invasive than anything the TSA could imagine.

[Stickgrappler]

Woof all:

Cutting and pasting from the "Self Defense Laws of all 50 States" thread part of Guro C's post:

Woof all:


In the real world, our Rules of Engagement (ROE) and our environmental awareness usually are more important than our physical fighting skills. Some of us have clearly worked out our ROE already.   This is good.   Having a sense of what one is and is not willing to fight for is an essential ingredient of not getting started in matters for which one is not willing to fight.

He who has not really thought about it may find himself having to work things out on the fly while under duress-- not good!!!

For example, someone barks and instinctively he barks back as a matter of self-respect and/or the respect of onlookers.  Sometimes all is well-- the situation subsides.  But sometimes, the situation escalates and a terrible problem arises-- in this moment he must determine whether to fight.  If not, then he may fear installing a backdown from an adrenal escalation into his self-programming.  He may fear that this is very bad for future response to adrenal dumps.  He may fear looking or feeling like a coward.  As a result he may decide to fight-- that is to say he agrees to fight for , , , for what? Certainly not for anything which he would have fought if he had lready
worked out his thinking!

For me, and your mileage may vary, a fundamental principle is "What you think of me is none of my business".  Of course there may be variations, but on the whole if someone barks at me it is very simple: according to the physical realities of the situation I can leave or respond with verbal judo/de-escalation techniques.  If these fail, then I can be clear both to myself and to any witnesses that may be present that I sought to avoid the fight and now must act.  This makes for an unencumbered mind and a superior level of action-- and better testimony should it ever come to that.

My next rule of engagement is to "Avoid the Three Ss".  That is to say, avoid Stupid people in Stupid places doing Stupid things.

Putting these three rules together (Environmental awareness; What you think of me is none of my business; and Avoid the Three Ss) will prevent most problems before they even get started.


...

SG's addendum:  some people add a 4th "S" = 'stupid times'

avoid Stupid people in Stupid places doing Stupid things at Stupid times

[Stickgrappler]

Retired San Diego Police Dept's Sanford Strong wrote in his book, Strong on Defense:

1. React immediately
2. Resist
3. Avoid crime scene #2
4. Never give up




Edit:  I highly reco this book for any interested in 'self-defense'.