Tippy-tappy drills-- threat or menace?

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof All:

On the DBMA Association Forum, in the context of a larger discussion, one of our members commented:

"The mentality gained from doing many of the middle range knife tapping drills seems to emphasize standing and exchanging at middle range until the opponent is down and out.   This is risky business at best."

So, I'd like to put up for discussion the merit or lack thereof and drawbacks of what are sometimes sarcastically called "tippy-tappy drills".

Fasten your seat belts, this could get lively

TAC,
CD

[Jeff Gentry]

Well in HEMA we generaly stab, so i am not commenting at the moment just waiting to see where this goes should be interesting.


Jeff

[maija]

 this is not a term i have heard before.  is it somewhat like palakaw? fixed stance or moving? pre-set or random? what's it meant to train?
thanks.

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof Maija:

The term "tippy tappy drills" is intended by its original users to be critical of many of the drills found in the FMA-- kind of like the term "Dead Patterns" is used by some of these individuals.  And just as we in DBMA proudly use the term "Dead Patterns" for things that we do, so too we absorb the usage of the name "tippy tapping drills".  Examples would be sombrada, hubud-lubud, knife tapping, and things of that sort.  These can be fixed patterns or interactive, with fixed stance or not.

 Some say that these drills were made up to amuse American students and that in the Philippines such drilling was far less important than here in the US.  Some say that these drills promote bad habits as well as good ones.  Some say that these drills are useless, etc.

Does this help?

[Guide Dog]

I am going to try and start things off on a positive note in a thread that I know is going to be heated.  Energy drills are fun.  They are fun to do with someone that knows them.  I often talk about sumbrada and the related drills in this thread as a language.  It's fun to learn the language and then speak it with others familiar with it.  You can go super slow with these drills.  You can work with minimal resistance.  You can also step it up and use some padding and go full speed, moving in and out of the drills.  Watching two expereinced FMA practitioners move in and out of the drills is really beautiful.

Personally, at the two gatherings I have participated in, I have been able to deflect a strike and return a strike that made contact (Sumbrada) here and there.  I will admit to getting hit at the gatherings, getting "killed" many times, and realizing my ground game needs work.  My preparation for participating at the gatherings has been  a few years in the Inosanto blend and some VERY padded stick sparring sessions.  I am still alive after my participation.  My main goal in DBMA is access to experiences that make me qualified to talk about what has worked for me in the FMA.  I like talking about roof blocks because I have used them in real time.  I feel qualified to share my own experiences with others if it is helpful.  For me, I like a mix of the energy drill training and the fighter's perspective to keep my FMA experience fresh.  Really, the "combat-only" perspective and the energy-drill perspective should be working together in the modern FMA practitioner.

The problem I am seeing in contemporary martial arts is that we need to realize that we are ALL family.  We all have something to offer.  The energy drills of the FMA have something to offer.  Going right into stick and knife sparring is a route that has something to offer.  Seeking out those techniques that have been "tested" is a route that has something to offer.  I realize this paragraph is a little touchy-feely but what we are all talking about is using martial arts to improve the state of the world, whether that is being an unorganized militia or doing Tai Chi in the morning because it is relaxing.

In that respect, let's stop being martial arts bigots and accept that everyone has different goals.  For all the "sumbrada studs" (Guru Crafty's expression) out there, keep on doing your thing.  We need you to make the FMA look good and attract new, good people to the art.  For all of the hard-core fighters out there, keep doing your thing.  Not everyone (understandably) wants to go down your road and we will need to hear about your experiences so we can learn from them.  For the folks in the middle who just wanted to learn martial arts because of the character and health benefits it offers, keep doing your thing.  I have met some of the nicest people ever in the martial arts and the feeling of belonging the arts can bring you is amazing.  So, if you want reality only or "cage-tested" material only, okay.  Just realize that you should not judge the folks who like learning a million variables for punyo sumbrada.  The energy-drill folks also need to stop looking at DBMA and shaking their heads because they are not seeing one clean snake or vine disarm at any of the gatherings.  If we start to look at it from the perspective of using the FMA to improve the state of the world, that is much healthier than fighting over who is "alive" and who is "dead". Whether that improvement in the world is preparing someone to defend their loved ones or giving a child a place to go and practice "kung-fu" afterschool that keeps them out of trouble, it is all the same goal.

[C-Kumu Dog]

That was a great response Dog Bryan.

I think the drills are great for developing coordination especially for those that are new to the FMA and yes I also realize that we should also teach them to hit and hit hard.  I may get into a little trouble about this but I like to think of them as "oh crap" drills as in something something that pulled out when something unexpected happens and as previously stated various people have various goals and you just cant force people in a direction they dont want to go in but you can open their eyes, guide them, give them the option and teach them the best you can.   

[Tony Torre]

Great subject!  I've gone back and forth on this for years.  I believe most of the drills to be quite beneficial for many reasons including the development of general coordination, attack angle recognition, creativity and many more reasons.  I consider them a great training method, but like push ups and jump rope without the appropriate context they are meaningless.  Using knife tapping drills let me show you what I mean.  The 2 methods we use are tapping on the same side as the attack (similar to what Guro Ted Lucaylacay taught) and cross body (similar to Pekiti Tirsia).  Both of these skills do wonders for hand speed and coordination as well as improving reaction time.  They don't however reflect a realistic attack.  When put in a scenario that challenges these particular skills you'll see the genius of these drills.  One such scenario we play often is the muffle his draw drill.  The set up is simple arm your partner with a concealed training knife and practice your empty handed counter offensive drills with him feeding.  When he's ready he will attempt to draw his knife.  Your goal is simple don't get cut   Sometimes you muffle his draw, sometimes he gets his knife out and you tap it, sometimes you get cut.  Another great one is the 3 count sombrada drill or the high box pattern that almost every FMA uses.  What a great way to repeat over and over 3 very common angles of attack and their defenses.  The biggest argument the "marketeers" use against this drill is the use of the live hand   Okay do it without it.  It's still a great drill.  Who wouldn't use a roof block or inside block when appropriate?  Anyway sorry if I ranted thats my two cents.  Thanks.

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com

[maija]

thanks guro crafty for your description.
in our system, visayan corto kadena eskrima (vcke),  we think of medio range or 2nd range, as that where one person can cut the body of the opponent with a weapon, as opposed to 1st range where one can only reach the hand/arm, and 3rd range which is essentially grappling/dumog. i expect this is similar in other systems aswell.
for the last 10 or so years, sonny came to believe that all pre-set drills had the inherent flaw of causing 'freezing points' in the student. instead he taught everything in the context of a random flow. exercises could to be limited to the first 4 or 5 strikes, but after that it was completely without pattern.
i believe that 2nd range is no place to 'hang out', and happens as a brief interlude between entry and exit, or entry and takedown. however, with bladed weapons where evasion is a most necessary skill, exercises in this range provide a forum in which to 1) get comfortable seeing the blade at very close quarters, especially in the peripheral vision. 2) understand when, or even if,  to use the live hand. 3) understand the use of the body angle to evade without losing the range. 4) understand the timing necessary to exit clean after striking the oppponent.
in our system, this kind of flow may start off at an even and steady tempo, in a co-operative manner, but then can escalate, according to the skill of the players: speeding up and breaking the tempo. both players attempt to cut but not get cut in return, without retreating into 1st range........ yeah, you're right, not so easy!! but quite enlightening.

[Cranewings]

I have an opinion on the problem with tippy tapping drills.

The problem with the tippy tapping drills is the same problem with a lot of different martial arts; most people don’t know what they are for.

An easy martial art to criticize is Aikido. Everyone has seen Aikido people practicing wrist locks against the jab. Anyone who can throw a good jab knows that the idea of someone catching their wrist and turning it over is insane. A lot of people who practice that drill don’t know how to throw a good punch so they don’t see the flaw. A lot of their teachers can’t throw a good punch and they haven’t been punched at… so the idea of catching a jab and locking the wrist goes unchecked.

I KNOW that catching the jab and locking the wrist is just a vessel for practicing the wrist lock. I can do a standing wrist lock, but it always comes from stunning the person bad enough that they leave a hand lingering out for me to snatch. I know that I cannot grab a jab and lock it. Maybe someone sweat enough is out there, but I haven’t met him.

I believe that a lot of kali people practice tippy tappy drills and have no idea what they are doing it for. I have opinions on what they are for but they aren’t strongly rooted. I know that the first time I knife sparred I was sweet at the drills but everything asides from trading forearm slashes went out the window.

Tippy tappy drills are like words out of context and no one is telling the vast majority of students what the rest of the sentence is; and I believe they are getting set up to die in a real confrontation because of that. Even the people who can explain what they are for don’t have a method of getting it into the student’s mind effectively.

I don’t think that there is anything wrong with the drills. I just feel like most kali students lack the knowledge to use them for anything. Practicing a move until it is perfect is pointless if you have no idea how it can appear in a real fight or WHO you can use it against.

Peace,
John

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof All:

All:  I hope I don't embarass Maija, but she can be seen in our promo clip for "The Grandfathers Speak Vol 2: Maestro Sonny Umpad".  I was very impressed by her movement and bilateralism when she performed for Maestro Sonny when I was up in Oakland.

Using her point about ranges as a starting point:

In DBMA we have 7 Ranges:

Snake: Pre-contact
Weapon Range:  Where the fighters' bubbles collide.  This range's importance varies according to the weapons involved. With small knives, it is not important but with staffs it is.
Largo:  Known to all here
Medio: Known to all here
Corto: Known to all here
Clinch:  Self-explanatory
Ground: Self-explanatory

In ritual fighting, the fight usually starts in Snake Range and a lot of people experience a lot of cognitive dissonance right away.  They may have lots of experience training medio and corto range drills, but when confronted by someone moving around and whizzing a stick or two at them they realize they have absolutely no idea how to get to where they have skills without getting clocked.

Around this point some of them begin muttering about tippy tappy drills, when the real issue IMHO is that they lack the science of entering and striking and/or the science of entering and closing.  In DBMA this is where we use the concept of the Triangle from the Third Dimension, Attacking Blocks, Snaggletooth Variations, Los Triques and Dos Triques, etc.  These are the portals into the dimension where the skills cultivated in medio and corto range isolation drills are expressed.  From the little I've seen of Maestro Sonny this is where he used the pendulum step-- Maija?

Cranewings point is sound, people may do the medio and corto training without understanding but the answer for me is to supply the missing understanding, not delete the medio and corto training.

TAC,
CD

[maija]

thanks guro crafty for your kind words.
sonny's footwork was very sophisticated, and his ability to judge range made it seem like you were sparring a ghost. it seemed as though he was right there but you could never touch him. as soon as you opened up to strike, you were open too and he struck you. if you came in first he struck you, if you waited, he forced you to defend and then struck you....
it seems that the primary question in this discussion is how to move from a position of safety (DBMA snake range) into danger (weapon, tippy-tappy to ground) and back to safety again. this is most important with bladed weapons, so the game becomes one of deception, feinting, drawing, baiting, stealing range etc. this gives you the timing advantage needed to get past the "bubble" , and then finish and exit (often the hardest part).
the pendulum stepping that guro crafty mentioned is the main training method of the VCKE system, and is actually composed of 3 main pendulums: stepping pendulum, body pendulum and weapon pendulum. using these in different combinations with left and right leads gives you the ability to hide your range and which way your weight is distributed i.e where you are going next.
getting your opponent to commit whilst you keep your options open  IMHO gives you an idea of the when? and how? to move through the ranges.

[Howling Dog]

Maija, Could you please explain to me what you mean by body pendulum, and how it would be different from stepping pendulum.Thanks in advance! Sounds very intresting.....
                                                                    TG

[maija]

hi tom,
it's always difficult to describe dynamic movements, but in essence the body pendulum is a weight shift from front to back, or back to front leg without a step. obviously "dumping" weight during stepping is not a good idea as your opponent may be timing your movement, but learning how to syncopate upper and lower body motion by separating the stepping from the weight shift  can also work in more subtle ways. for instance, say we are both playing on the edge of the "bubble" to use guro crafty's term, and i start with my weight foreward. i mark your range, and every time i step, even if i have retreated and start to engage once more, i'm going to try and slide/shuffle my front foot a couple inches closer to your foot, whilst shifting my upper body towards the back a couple inches. to someone not paying attention it may seem we are where we started, but it's amazing what a small difference can do.  add a change in lead leg without changing your upper body and chamber your blade against your body, and it becomes quite tricky to read the range.
of course i have a picture in my head of what i'm trying to describe as i write this, but have no idea if it makes any sense. hopefully it is not complete gibberish.

[Howling Dog]

Maija, Very nice!! Your description is very good, I gotcha. It will be nice to put that to practice.
Thank you very much!!
In my mind I was thinking more dramatic in motion. I find subtle to be quite GOOD
Thanks agian for that valuable info.
                                                                                  TG

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof Maija:

Thank you for sharing a very nice tidbit.

TAC,
CD

[Karsk]

I wrote some of my response earlier but then hesitated to post because I wasn't sure if what I wanted to talk about was really relevant.  Then the discussion focused on range relative to the drills and I think that what I wanted to say might be a contribution.

About range:

 I wanted to mention the japanese term Ma-ai or Ma which is timing and distancing combined.  Ma has  psychological and physical components and is affected by the level of your opponents.  There is supposed to be only one ma between two opponents.  That doesn't mean that there is one fighting range..its not about range really...its more about that place where the action starts. Or maybe its akin to the  place where the bubbles overlap if I am using the term "bubble" correctly.  Its a sensation and a feeling as much as it is a distance. It's affected by the level of your opponent, their psychological strength, and weapons.  Figuring out how to get from "out there" to  get the opponent occupied a lot of time.  The idea of ma as a psychological and physical phenomenon and compartmentalized ranges (7 ranges that martial arts seem to focus on with greater and lesser degrees of specialization) work well together I think.

I think I was  lucky because I had training circumstances that kept me open minded and teachers that encouraged me to cross train.  There were holes in my study of martial arts ranges that other training experiences filled.   So tippy tappy sorts of drills came into my vision through  exercises I encountered in wing chun and other chinese arts.  I think they are similar anyway 

Maija pointed out "tippy tappy" occurs at a specific range which is in an intermediate "interlude" or transition interface.

Those drills them a gap for me so to speak.

About learning from the drills:

The drills I have encountered may be free flowing or they may be structured in some way.  Even in the free form, these types of drills seem cooperative in the sense that the combatants consciously or unconsciously try to blend with one another.  The effort is to practice the flow and to find the patterns and pathways that are smooth and in a way harmonious.

I wonder about the concept of coming into harmony with your opponent.  This is a large concept in some Japanese arts.  How is harmony manifested in a more realistic sparring or fighting situation?  Is there a very high level where blending with your opponent is manifested in a huge way? 

There is something that happens in sparring and fights that is at the same uh...consciousness level as the blending that occurs in these drills.  But it's a bit different than a cooperative flow sensation isn't it?   In sparring there is intent to deceive and and to break timing in a way that confounds.  The intent is to find spaces in awareness within your opponent and to utilize them.   There is emptiness and fullness such that one fellow may take the initiative at times and be in control.   At other times the playing out of the fight is more of a struggle for control.  In sparring combatants are often utilizing timing and distancing to confound the opponent and throw them off.  There is a psychological combat for the initiative with varying degrees of success. 

So instead of getting in synchrony with your opponent you create angular timing and distancing on purpose and then in the space of their confusion you can find openings. 

The intermediate ranges are places where bad things seem to be able to happen fast.  One way of managing that danger is to minimize being at that range for any length of time. Another way is to put yourself there and study it.  Isn't that the intent of these drills?

I think that using concepts from  drills in sparring is where you really learn a lot.  I think that the fun part is figuring out how to apply the fundamental concept in a realistic way (or not). You really have to consider the point of the drills and this is not always as straightforward as it seems. Sometimes the important stuff gets lost in the drill and the study becomes enigmatic.

Karsk

[Cranewings]

Guru Crafty,

That is a huge part of why you and your material is so important. There aren't many people who teach getting from point a to point b even though it is so important to martial arts. I find it in sports fighting but that is limited, and most traditionalist won't get into it. You are one of only two, maybe three people I know that focuses on getting from point a to b and no one else is teaching it with weapons. (: It is hot stuff.

Karsk, I was at a TKD class the other night where something came up that you might find intresting. In TKD it is really important to advance at an angle, even if it is strait into your opponent's belly. It is the only way to get a kick past raised elbows safely. A couple instructors were demonstrating footwork, and while it looked like a beautiful dance, they were trying to trick one another and it only took a few moments for their to be a "winner." I think at a high level, people training together can perform trickery and it will still mesh and be fluid.

Peace,
John

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof All:

Karsk's ruminations on flow during TT drills and coming into harmony with the opponent reminded me of something I wrote some years ago:

BEGIN
The Days Before A Fight by Guro Crafty
 
The days before the fight are always a powerful crucible. I have a non-martial art teacher who when someone seeks to leave a situation that makes them uncomfortable says, "Whatever you do, keep on being here in this moment." I may not have the quote exactly right, but I hope I have the gist of it.

Scientist Konrad Lorenz's book "Behind the Mirror" addresses the evolutionary biology of consciousness. There is a passage in the book wherein he describes how a cat at play will seamlessly string together unrelated behaviors/movements from stalking prey, fighting a rival, bluffing a predator, courtship, killing prey etc. He then points out that the instant that the cat is stressed (e.g. the appearance of a rival) this ability disappears.

Many martial arts discuss how there are different mindsets/qualities with which one can defend/fight. Often the names are a bit poetic; Fire, Water, Wind, Rock, Earth, etc. but the point is made that the more realized the fighter is, the better his ability to fluidly shift between them. In the intense adrenal state of a fight, this can be a very good trick to actually do, yet as Lorenz's point about the cat makes clear, the state of Play is the state where this happens best. ("What Is Play?" in evolutionary biological terms is an interesting question in its own right.) Thus, the best fight is where the fight is play. Thus in Dog Brothers Martial Arts we say

"Do not have a Way as you Play. Fight the Way you Play. Let your Fight be Play" (c)

The Learning that takes place in the adrenal state is some of the deepest and highest that there is. (The adrenal state of course can be triggered by many things, not only immediate physical danger; criticism by loved ones, humiliation, etc etc.) The greater the adrenal state, the profounder the Learning. The greater the state of Play, the better the result. The more that one can move in both directions simultaneously, the better. "The greater the dichotomy, the profounder the transformation. Higher consciousness through harder contact." (c)

Woof!
Guro Crafty
http://dogbrothers.com/article_info.php?articles_id=7
END

The mental fluidity referred to in this piece also refers to ranges and the various skill sets developed in TT drills.  I suspect some people are disappointed by fighting not looking like TT drills-- I am reminded by Hot Dog (the Jester of the Hermosa Clan of the DBs) faux belligerent riff about "Don't make me hu-bud you!"  OF COURSE fighting does not look like the drills!  The idea is that the drills produce good results in the fluidity of the fight.  In our DVD "DB Gathering of the Pack"  there is a very nice staff fight between two good men, but as I comment in the voice over, one has a very clear advantage and he is the one of the two who had sombrada training.  With excellent fighting spirit and understanding and closing skills, this man simply lights up the other man every time the fight comes to media range with superior skills with his weapon.  THIS is what good sombrada training is intended to produce!  Paraphrasing what Cranewing noted above, doing sombrada well as most people do it does not develop fighting spirit, nor does it teach closing soundly to media against a 250 pound man swinging a staff at you, but if you do have fighting spirit and understanding and you have the ability to close to media THEN the skills cultivated in sombrada manifest.

TAC,
CD

[maija]

wow, great stuff!
first, i love the concept of "ma", of distance and timing being the same. after all the "right place at the right time"is the place to be.
second,in the context of training to fight, i think this whole understanding of WHY you are going to do what you do next is key.  this  can only come from real sparring experience. however, i totally agree with guro craft's comments that there also has to be a forum of "play" in which to investigate this. the mind does not absorb new ideas or become very creative when it is under stress, so different types of training are necessary.
play implies a relaxed mind, and at a high level i agree that the more you can bring that feeling into the adrenal state, the better. sonny believed that this came from training the eyes (and hence the brain) to truly understand what they were seeing. by that i don't just mean becoming familiar with the fear associated with facing an armed opponent, but more the familiarity of range, timing, probable options, and the angles of attack. truly seeing which plane the weapon is moving on, and understanding how to move around it. your intent becomes very different when you stop being preoccupied with defence, not because you don't care about being hit but because you know where and when is safe,("ma"), and start seeing the openings and the exits instead. my bagua teacher talked about being like a monkey seeing a piece of fruit that it wants. full intent, but sneaky, alert and aware.

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof Maija:

WOOF!

I like very much the insight and articulation of the Eyes-- what they scan for and what they see-- very good!  What you describe for us is Snake Range.  In the context of RCSFg (as versus blade) we speak of Protecting our Head, Hands, and Knees; Hiding our Intention;  and Masking our Initiation.

yip!
CD

[Jeff Gentry]

Hello all


I probably haven't done as much sparring/fighting as some of the Dog Brother's, I have done quit abit of it in my historic Euro MA(pretty much once a week) using wooden waster's and padded weapon's for full speed full contact we do not do alot of drill's though(which i am working on changing) so i am kind of looking at it from the opposite end of the spectrum.

Around this point some of them begin muttering about tippy tappy drills, when the real issue IMHO is that they lack the science of entering and striking and/or the science of entering and closing.  In DBMA this is where we use the concept of the Triangle from the Third Dimension, Attacking Blocks, Snaggletooth Variations, Los Triques and Dos Triques, etc.  These are the portals into the dimension where the skills cultivated in medio and corto range isolation drills are expressed.

I do see alot of value in drill's because they do teach certain thing's quicker than "fighting", like Guro "Crafty" said I think people do not assimilate the fact that the principle's of the drill are for use in this/that type of situation and may not be exactly like the drill ie a nice clean block/deflection because the opponent did somethign that freaked you out just as you were going to strike so you have to make a small adjustment, The drill will teach you how to do certain thing's when in certain situation's.

Boxer's drill on a constant basis, in my mind standing hitting a heavy bag is a drill ie footwork, jab, hook, cross, striaght R/L, uppercut and on and on then they get into the ring with a sparring partner and sparr at 40%, 50%, 60%, or whatever, the objective in the sparring ring is not to knock out your sparring partner it is to work on whatever you need to work on while trying to not be hit and hitting back using all the above.

I think in alot of respect's it is in our own mind and how we perceive the intent behind the drill whether what we learn from it can be brought in to play or not, I am not about alot of mystical mumbo jumbo and it has been my experience that alot of people in there mind think MA are complicated and some sort of mystical crap and in reality it is simply the axiom of the DB "higher consciousness through harder contact" because evetualy you get tired of being hit and one of two thing's hapen you either figure out how to use what the drill's taught you or you pack up and go home for good.

I think the right context  the "tippy tappy drill's" do have there place just as the "dead pattern's" do and it is up to us to know when they are to be brought to bear in a fight.


Jeff

[peregrine]

Excellent topic here.

My view is one from a pure novice.
I like the drills they teach coordination, burn in correct responses, and options that an untrained or even highly trained individual may not be aware of. CDs earlier article titled 'Trapping' was an excellent one. I am able to see both sides and ultimately i find the patterns work for me if i am able to spar them in a play context, with time, more sparring, more drills they could find there way into combat. I also view them as i do footwork patterns, they need to be taken in context and usually do not translate from drill exactly over to combat. I do not see one being able to completely pull off trap after trap, or similar, but i do see that if one is in a near situation that if one has put the time into drilling the correct responses, those responses will automatically come to mind and will be the foremost options... What needs to be remembered is that many drills and techniques may work with novice attackers, while the higher level techniques or ones that require more timing ultimately fall to the attributes of the players involved.  Another major issue i see with the drills supporters and the sparring supporters is that to some it is black and white, for long term development i see the drills work really well, for short term instant fighting ability sparring works, for the total package a combination should be used.

[armydoc]

Hey Guys!

Good responses to this thread so far!      Everyone seems to agree that the middle range "tippy-tappy" drills have value.  So I would turn the question around and ask....how much emphasis should they receive?   Several posters have talked about being able to move in and out of the "tippy-tap" range fluidly.  But how much is this actually broken out as its own area of training?   Guro Crafty has pointed out how many stick fighters have found that they were lacking in the ability to close the gap effectively in order to use the middle range drills that they had spent so much time training.   I would posit that the same is likely true for  a whole lot of people doing knife training. 

It seems to me that many FMAs spend the majority of their knife training in middle range doing these "tippy-tappy" drills.   But when you watch actual knife sparring with padded training knives, little action happens at this range.  Most people that I have seen trying to "spar" this as realistically as possible end up trying to stay out of middle and close range as much as possible.  So...shouldn't more emphasis be placed on developing the "snake" and "long" range skills? 

I see it as being similar to some JKD groups' attitudes towards trapping.   Trapping was a big deal in the early years of JKD.  But now  many people have grappling backgrounds and empty-hand exchanges go quickly from kicking/punching to clinshing/grappling without pause in the "trapping" range.   Its not that trapping is ineffective or of no value, it just a matter of how much emphasis it receives.  It doesn't seem to receive as much emphasis now as it did in the past...depending of course on which group you train with.

So....given our modern ability to "spar" more safely while still being as "realistic" as possible with weapons.....to experiment and see what works and what actually happens on a higher percentage basis.....should the training emphasis given to middle range drills be reconsidered?

Keith

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof All:

A story I sometimes tell is comes from the late 1980s when I was in Pendekar Paul DeThouars' Bukti Negara Silat class at the Inosanto Academy.  He asked for a volunteer, then called on me   He stood in front of me with his nose about 1" from mine.  His presence was quite formidable.  Then he said "Do something." 

For me this was a moment of satori. BN material which I had wondered about now made more sense.

I had doubted BN because I had in my mind typical young male ritual hierarchical combat which typically starts with both fighters at a distance at agreed upon time and place already in movement, but this was something different.  We were already at close quarters in stillness.  DIFFERENT PARADIGM.   Gabe Suarez can speak for himself, but I think he would agree that many civilians envision a gun fight through the filter of the paradigm of a Hollywood western movie:  Bad Guy and Good Guy face off.  GG allows BG to start his draw first because a GG should never start a fight.  Again the same question, what percentage of gun fights look like this?

In knife fighting I think it important to remember what we in DBMA sometimes playfully call "sport knife dueling" is but one paradigm amongst many when it comes to knives and may not be one that the media and corto training has in mind.   When the stakesare for real, what percentage of actual cases where a knife is used fall into this category?  I'm guessing quite low.   

If this is so, then the reason for the drill may be for something different than the behaviors of the sport knife paradigm.  For example, what about a homicidal rage?  I am reminded of a conversation I had with an ex-con wherein he told me about his kills in prison.  "Technique?  There's no technique!  You pump him until he is dead and then you bind your wounds."  So perhaps in the wild swirling frenzy of such an attack one might one want to have the extensive vocabulary of possible responses that can be developed in tippy tap training?  I'm thinking "Yes."  To paraphrase what Maija says above, you want to have the eyes to recognize what is happening and have solutions.

Which brings us to a key point:  Most TT/flow training is only done at a very low intensity.  This is good and a necessary part of the installation process, but IMHO many people commit a major error by never upping the intensity from there, even those who spend years at it.

This thinking was the starting point for my development of the Kali Fence and the Dog Catcher.   

I would like to say that what I show in the  "Die Less Often" DVD I did with Gabe Suarez is only what I could show those people in attendance in the day and a half of training before we began the scenario training-- and that is with Gabe and I covering a lot of other material as well!  There is a whole bunch of DBMA Dog Catcher curriculum that I simply did not have the time to go into that I think is pretty durn sharp (Yes it will ge part of a future DBMA DVD  ) -- as the line went in a TV western of my youth, "no brag, just fact"    -- and I was able to develop this curriculum due to my years of training with Guro Inosanto and others.

The last point I would like to offer for consideration is that looking at fights and asking what percentage of the time looks like the range/training of the drills is not how I look at it.  IMHO the idea is that the idea is to have things which define the pivotal instants in which a fight is decided.

In closing, yes I know I have not addressed one of the key questions presented here-- that of how much time/what proportion of one's time should be spent on TT drills-- beyond saying that many people don't spend anywhere enough time on pressure testing.  I will add that many people also do plenty of pressure testing, but may lack a broad vocabulary with which to answer the questions presented.

The Adventure continues,
Crafty Dog

[Karsk]

The image of facing someone nose to nose and having them say "Do something" prompted me to share today.

There are 6 kinds of sparring exercises that my organization uses:  one attack, 3 attack, free one attack, free sparring, long distance sparring, and short range sparring.   I do other types of exercises  but I thought I would share what the organization does just for context.  They pertain to studies of range and ma. I will just talk about two of these in the interests of brevity.

In all but free sparring and long distance sparring the attacks are not supposed to be restrained.  Counter attacks on the other hand are restrained.  By restrained, I mean to hold back and not make contact.  Presumable if you do your job setting the guy up as a defender and then hit him hard it will minimize the number of times he will want to repeat the experience. 

These drills have other constraints.  You agree before hand on the nature of the attack.  It can actually be anything.  The attack is usually one technique though it can be more. Typically the attacks are linear punches aimed at a specific target but they don't have to be. 

In "one attack" you face your opponent at "the inside edge of the ma".  That means that you are pressing your opponent a bit with your feeling. They stand naturally. Then you attack and they defend.

Problems:

Anyone who has ever set foot in a basic karate class has seen something that looks like this.  There are lots of ways to do this type of exercise really poorly.  For example you can do it by numbers and not really try to hit.  If you do that you eliminate what vestige of reality exists in these drills.  The more beneficial way is to have minimal constraints on the attack.  The attacker really try to get you and get you hard.  That wakes things up a bit but its still  extremely controlled as an exercise.   You can create scenarios based on this idea of one attack and learn how to respond to different things.  Like most drills people get programmed to behavior that is extremely stylized.  Thats not good.

But If you take the exercise seriously and try to make the attack work it creates a laboratory to test out things. For one thing you have to abide by the idea that "what matters is what works".  So you may start out with a stylized idea of a technique and then it just doesn't work and you have to change it until it does then you have to consider what you learned relative to the constraints of the exercise compared to reality and so on.  You can maybe find out the real point of a technique that way. You can adapt the broad approach to what you are trying to study.

The energy of these exercises is focused on testing one another.  They exist to give people insights about technique and psychological aspects.


Short range sparring. 

To discuss this type of exercise is really the reason for my post.  Short range happens inside the bubble.  It is initiated with both people standing at a range where the opponent would barely miss an idle swing at the eyes with outstretched fingers. So close but not in the range where things are boiling.  In this type of sparring the attacker hits with a designated unrestrained attack. Designated means that you know in general where the attack is coming from and usually but not always its agreed to be a punch or strike of some kind.  There are still lots of constraints but you can really try to clobber the opponent.  When done well there are a lot of psychological considerations to study and there is incentive to learn to respond better at closer ranges.

This type of sparring is where I stepped off into tippy tappy drills.  I think the range of the "tippy tappy" drills that I picked up  is closer yet and it was really useful for developing fluidity and diversity of responses once the distance is entered.  Rather than arbitrarily stopping as most of the sparring exercises I have described do, tippy tappy drills create a continuum of movement that helps things to spontaneously occur.   

Its there that the blending that I alluded to earlier in these and similar drills seem to fit.

P.S.  I just reviewed some things that I have on Bukti negara and there seems to be some similarities to the drills and exercises that they use to what I am familiar with.  What I called "free one attack"  sounds like Sambutan at least in intent.
 

Karsk

[Sun_Helmet]

But when you watch actual knife sparring with padded training knives, little action happens at this range.  Most people that I have seen trying to "spar" this as realistically as possible end up trying to stay out of middle and close range as much as possible.  So...shouldn't more emphasis be placed on developing the "snake" and "long" range skills? 


Keith

The middle range is where a person will most likely receive the most lethal wounds, so emphasis on the middle range is VERY important. One might be able to gain long range entry but in the real world, people tend to grab and keep the victim close so they can keep pumping the knife. The defender usually tries to grab the knife or try to escape the grabs of the attacker with the knife. All that happens in middle range.

Tapping drills lose their applicable nature once they are no longer in one for one beats. That doesn't mean a hubud drill is useless, but it limits the two count beat to an opponent that is keeping their own weapon stationary for as long as you can move twice, even three times on it. It does happen though but usually when the opponent is hesitant.

The tapping should have halfbeats in mind and a majority (if not all) in one beats.

Tapping lasts one layer, if you get two layers of tapping in then the Almighty gave you a gift that day.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

[maija]

hi again,
reading the last set of replies made me want to throw something else out there.
the biggest question for me in any encounter is "what is my opponent going to do"? "when"? and "where"? if this remains uncertain, luck generally takes the place of skill, and blade sparring turns into 2 people bouncing around on the outside, occasionally darting into range and exchanging cuts before retreating or clinching, often with both still holding weapons... the chances of evading a cut and still doing what you need to do are greatly diminished, so is your ability to travel through the ranges.
the best option IMHO is to learn how to set your opponent up to gain the advantage. if you can force an error, great, but at least narrow the field of options they have.
this to me is perhaps the most important question to answer as it sets up the reason, and placement of all the others that happen later.
i would like to propose that "upping the intensity" during training,  as guro crafty has suggested, should include random entries by an opponent, and not only random "where", but random "when". from  low intensity with light contact and an opponent who also values their own health( and as such will not just run at you), to high intensity where your opponent is full-on with little care for their own well being.... and of course anything in between.
for me the random element is a crucial factor missing in a great deal of training.
looking foreward to your comments!

 

[C-Kumu Dog]

Maija: the best option IMHO is to learn how to set your opponent up to gain the advantage.

Thats a great point Maija after thinking and reviewing some of our recent sparring matches Ive realized that I haven't been utilizing timing like I have done when I first begun training with DogZilla and the guys (and now a "girl"). I certainly want to try the pendulum concept out that you have described.  After watching several DBMA DVDs I know Guro Crafty and company cover various ways to set up your shots as well.

Guro Crafty:  I will add that many people also do plenty of pressure testing, but may lack a broad vocabulary with which to answer the questions presented.

I have to confess I am one of those but just like any other skill it takes practice.....

[Guard Dog]

Guro Crafty:  I will add that many people also do plenty of pressure testing, but may lack a broad vocabulary with which to answer the questions presented.
I have to confess I am one of those but just like any other skill it takes practice.....

Additionally,
  People with extensive skill sets sometimes choke under pressure and we tend not to see the skills come out when real speed knife encounters occur (DLO DVD being a perfect example in the scenario testing).  With that said, sometimes it is not only the vocabulary that one lacks but also the tone in which it is spoken when practicing   In other words, people might have all the skills in the world but never take it to the next step in intensity.  Then, when they are confronted with a real speed scenario it is foreign in nature.  However, I strongly believe that real speed skill set testing should be done after the proper set is implanted at a slower speed.  With that said I think it has become comfortable for many people to simply stay at the slower speed and never move onto the next stage in the progression.

Gruhn

[armydoc]

Hey Guro Crafty:

In knife fighting I think it important to remember what we in DBMA sometimes playfully call "sport knife dueling" is but one paradigm amongst many when it comes to knives and may not be one that the media and corto training has in mind. 

---Excellent point!   But wouldn't a well-rounded "knife fighter" be very familiar with both paradigms?

  When the stakes are for real, what percentage of actual cases where a knife is used fall into this category?  I'm guessing quite low. 

---Maybe, but then again all it takes is enough of a pause that allows a disengagement and 1 or 2 steps back.  This would then put you in the "outside" ranges which would allow for evasive footwork and movement.....outside of the "danger zone."  If you survive the initial attack at middle range, I could see things very easily transitioning  to this area.     But then I'm not that familiar with the facts of how real knife engagements have happened. 

Which brings us to a key point:  Most TT/flow training is only done at a very low intensity.  This is good and a necessary part of the installation process, but IMHO many people commit a major error by never upping the intensity from there, even those who spend years at it.

----That makes sense.   And I would add that many people likely never train to move in and out of the drills from the outside ranges rather than just standing at middle range the whole time.

  There is a whole bunch of DBMA Dog Catcher curriculum that I simply did not have the time to go into that I think is pretty durn sharp (Yes it will ge part of a future DBMA DVD  ) -- as the line went in a TV western of my youth, "no brag, just fact"    -- and I was able to develop this curriculum due to my years of training with Guro Inosanto and others.

---Looking forward to seeing that!   

 the idea is to have things which define the pivotal instants in which a fight is decided.

---I think I see what you are saying.   Essentially....since the middle range exchanges in the "danger zone" are so pivotal to surviving a knife encouter they deserve special emphasis.

In closing, yes I know I have not addressed one of the key questions presented here-- that of how much time/what proportion of one's time should be spent on TT drills-- beyond saying that many people don't spend anywhere enough time on pressure testing.  I will add that many people also do plenty of pressure testing, but may lack a broad vocabulary with which to answer the questions presented.

---I agree.  Developing a broad vocabulary and then "pressure testing" that knowledge is important.   But do you feel that part of the vocabulary that people are neglecting is the ability to fight from the outside ranges?

Keith

[armydoc]

Hey Rafael!

The middle range is where a person will most likely receive the most lethal wounds, so emphasis on the middle range is VERY important.

---And I would think that being able to stay out of middle range where you ARE most likely to suffer a lethal wound would be very important as well! 

 One might be able to gain long range entry but in the real world, people tend to grab and keep the victim close so they can keep pumping the knife. The defender usually tries to grab the knife or try to escape the grabs of the attacker with the knife. All that happens in middle range.

---Another reason to stay out of the middle range "danger zone"! 

---I've come to look at it this way....the "outside range" is the area where you are outside the arc of the opponent's strike.  It includes snake and long range.  The alive hand is less of a factor.   Footwork and mobility are key components.   Strikes landing from this range are typically delivered with the arm nearly extended (even when targeting the head and torso).   Quick jabs, slashes and snap cuts predominate.  This is the realm of the "long-range" fighter and of "sport knife dueling".   The "inside range" is the  area where you are inside the arc of the opponent's strike.  It includes middle and close range.  The use of the alive hand is very important.  Mobility is less of a factor.  Strikes landing from this range are typically delivered with the arm bent (even when targeting the knife hand/arm).  Strong cuts and thrusts predominate.  This is the realm of the "tippy-tap" drills and self-defense oriented material.   The two approaches are distinct, but can blend and transition rather smoothly when practiced.   My idea that I have been putting out (which may be right or wrong) is that there has been too much emphasis on the "inside range" and not enough on the "outside range" in most traditional FMAs. 

---I don't know much about Sayoc Kali, but have heard lots of good things about it.   How much training and emphasis is given to fighting from the "outside range" in Sayoc?  Thanks!

Keith

[Sun_Helmet]

---And I would think that being able to stay out of middle range where you ARE most likely to suffer a lethal wound would be very important as well! 

That is if you are in duelling mode.

Most knife attacks BEGIN in middle range.
One can not get back to that "safe" long range zone if they cannot dominate the middle range long enough to escape.

We may be communicating on opposite ends of the discussion, because in Sayoc, WE have the knife.

---Another reason to stay out of the middle range "danger zone"!

People get jacked in stairwells, in alleyways, on icy streets, on muddy fields, in theaters, in between cars, in ATMs, etc.... it starts in middle range. Even if the guy is far away, by the time you respond he is in middle range or closer.

 How much training and emphasis is given to fighting from the "outside range" in Sayoc?  Thanks!

Keith

We train so that long range is nullified, unless you are in duelling sport mode.

Multiple man scenarios force a more realistic form of long range fighting, so we do that on a consistent basis.
It isn't at all what people tend to think of as "long range"... it is a suprrising dose of reality for many.

When we are in long range duelling play, our students have been able to adjust quite well. Footwork evolves much more against multiple attackers.

FYI, the "snake" tactics often referred to were developed for guys attacking you with a spear or pike.
Look at it from that historical context and it may open a few doors into one's training evolution.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

[armydoc]

Hey Rafael!

We may be communicating on opposite ends of the discussion, because in Sayoc, WE have the knife.

---I'm not sure what you mean here?  I think this whole thread has assumed that both the attacker and defender have a knife.

People get jacked in stairwells, in alleyways, on icy streets, on muddy fields, in theaters, in between cars, in ATMs, etc.... it starts in middle range. Even if the guy is far away, by the time you respond he is in middle range or closer.

---People also get jacked in parking lots, alleys, driveways, sidewalks, etc that allows them room to move out of middle range.  Why stay there if you don't have to?

We train so that long range is nullified, unless you are in duelling sport mode.

---How exactly is long range nullified?   If an opponent is  good at using footwork and mobility to stay at the outside ranges and pick off movements of your knife hand/arm, it seems to me you would have to play his game until you could force the exchange to close to middle range. 


When we are in long range duelling play, our students have been able to adjust quite well.

---By this comment, you make it sound like Sayoc doesn't spend a lot of time specifically training for the "outside" ranges.   Otherwise, "adjustment" would not be needed.  But then I may very well have misinterpreted your intent.


FYI, the "snake" tactics often referred to were developed for guys attacking you with a spear or pike.
Look at it from that historical context and it may open a few doors into one's training evolution.

---In DBMA terminology, "snake range" refers to the "precontact distance."  The name came from the way in which Eric Knaus would keep his stick moving in a "snaky" fashion as he stalked his opponent prior to closing. 

Keith

[Guard Dog]

Keith,
  Rafael has an extensive background in Sayoc Kali which is a "All blade, all the time" art.  This might help explain parts of his post which you are confused by.  For instance, by "WE" he means Sayoc Kali practitioners.  Also, the assumption of always having the knife changes many variables within just about every situation which some people might not be used to, Rafael on the other hand is used to this variable change.

Woof!

Gruhn

[Karsk]

The last few replies got me thinking of how the "initiative" fits into this discussion.  Initiative...who has control of the situation is a really interesting thing.   When you have the initiative in a game, or in sparring, or in managing people you can feel it and the persons that you are interacting with can feel it.  If the initiative is contested because both people know completely what is up and realize the conflict exists and are prepared to act, that feels different than when you catch someone with their pants down completely.  Is it not true that in many realistic confrontations, the attackers create or take advantage of circumstances where they have the initiative pretty sewn up?

Examples are what Raphael alluded to.  All of the examples that were brought up ("stairwells, in alleyways, on icy streets, on muddy fields, in theaters, in between cars, in ATMs, etc") have some things in common with regard to initiative. Attacking people by getting close to them before they know you are there, catching people in places with limited escape routes, when they are vulnerable in some way and so on.

I mentioned the concept of MA earlier in this thread.  The concept extends into a consideration of initiative.  MA is timing and distance combined but it is also a primal awareness of danger.  I mean that is what is behind it all.  You can say it like this "That person or thing has a large MA"  or "when you have a weapon your MA is larger"  or "When I am too close I can feel it...that is my sense of MA..primal danger radar.  So timing and distancing is also related to awareness through this concept.

If I look into a dark alley I get a sense of the stupidity of walking down there in my gut.  A lot of people don't listen to that. But its an extension of our MA  our awareness of timing/distancing combined that tells us that there is danger.  The closer we get to the source of danger the more acutely we feel it until we are prompted to act.  If we are really tuned into this it becomes a key to timing...right?  I mean I am using a term that I am familiar with but this sensation is inherent in all of us I think.

So here is what I am getting at:  I think that Raphael has really cool points about how many conflicts start from a position of disadvantage.  By being too close, that means that you have already missed something, either through misfortune, dumb luck or lack of awareness.  The attacker has an inherent advantage in that situation because they captured the initiative tactically.  Preventing loss of initiative is about awareness training and occurs at really long ranges and is based on strategy as well as tactics. (Don't be in that place at that time for starters and so on)

When it comes down to it then there are maybe three situations.  One where you have the initiative. One where they have the initiative and one where the initiative is contested and needs to be gained. 

Is the nature of midrange and training for the midrange alter according to who has the initiative?  It seems to me that it does.  If it does then how does that relate to tippy tappy drills?

For example considering these scenarios:

A guy is attacking someone else.  You can get behind him and they don't see you. You have the initiative and you can maintain it through the attack.

A guy catches you while you are at the atm right as you  drop your credit card. They have the initiative and they are going to act with ruthlessness. They are too close too soon.

You perceive a guy coming at you...you sense them and they only hesitate for a second then proceed.  You are too close to be able to run and still too far to engage.  Neither has the initiative.   

Karsk

[C-Kumu Dog]

Maija,
Would this be an example of the pendulum footwork that you described?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjQIRgZHIjk

[Sun_Helmet]

---People also get jacked in parking lots, alleys, driveways, sidewalks, etc that allows them room to move out of middle range.  Why stay there if you don't have to?

One is NOT going to get out of range unless you know how to get out of middle range. As Ryan pointed out, long range is basically awareness and field experience coming into play. In real life application, the duelling aspects of knife happens too fast unless you have a longer weapon to keep the opponent at a farther distance than his own extended blade.

Why would one knife duel in long range if you already see it coming? You de-escalate , use an obstacle to gain escape....all kinds of avenues are open to you. It is also a better way to handle it in the court of law.

---How exactly is long range nullified?   If an opponent is  good at using footwork and mobility to stay at the outside ranges and pick off movements of your knife hand/arm, it seems to me you would have to play his game until you could force the exchange to close to middle range. 

Is there real life footage of this kind of knife fighting beyond a sport duel? I've seen people severely cut on the hands and wrist, it doesn't even register - their forward pressure will overrun those who wish to play tag.

INTENT is very important to keep in mind. If a guy wants to close on you no matter what, long range will be nullified....fast. One would have to be running away and hope their skills in that area is superior than the guy chasing.

---By this comment, you make it sound like Sayoc doesn't spend a lot of time specifically training for the "outside" ranges.   Otherwise, "adjustment" would not be needed.  But then I may very well have misinterpreted your intent.

You misinterpreted my intent, correct.

---In DBMA terminology, "snake range" refers to the "precontact distance."  The name came from the way in which Eric Knaus would keep his stick moving in a "snaky" fashion as he stalked his opponent prior to closing. 

Keith

That is why I specifically stated "historically".

Btw, how long have you trained in knife combatives?

Regards,

--Rafael--

[maija]

hi robert,
yes, this is our group a few years back doing a demo in san francisco. this is the basic format of our training system shown at low intensity with emphasis on body angles.
talking of which......the conversation about long and medium range made me want to comment that the difference between them is only really about time, or "ma" . rafael makes a great point about using objects in your environment to gain the time you need to make an escape - this is the equivalent to evading a cut in the long range perhaps?
buying time can also be done by forcing your opponent to commit first whilst keeping your options open, i.e feinting in all it's many guises. even within weapon range there are angles where you cannot be reached by the opponents weapon without them having to adjust their footing. you just got to know what they are and be half a beat ahead to take advantage of them.
which brings me to karsk's thoughts on initiative, and who has it. obviously if you don't see it coming it's too late, so training awareness is very important. however in his last scenario:
 "You perceive a guy coming at you...you sense them and they only hesitate for a second then proceed.  You are too close to be able to run and still too far to engage.  Neither has the initiative."
if you have training, you have the initiative because they won't know they are going to be set up.

[Karsk]

Hi Maija,

The training shown on that video looks very much like what we call free one-attack.  It IS different but the energy flow is very similar.  In free one- attack both people are mobile and enter and exit in and out, a poem about it goes "the ma requires advancing, retreating separating and meeting".  In that practice, the attacker uses a specified but uncontrolled attack and the defender controls the counter but then is able to immediately respond with an attack of their own.

In terms of the comment you made in the last scenario.  You are right about your chances being far greater at having the initiative if you are more trained but perhaps your opponent is of equal or greater skill than you. Or they are less skilled but you have a migraine.   If the fellow is big and nasty and don't care if they are hurt sometimes the sheer ferocity of the attack is enough to bowl you over.  In any case, there may be veils between you and your opponent and you may think you are in charge but you may not be.   In this way, I think that the initiative has to be resolved.

Thanks for the really interesting discussions everyone!

Karsk

[maija]

hi karsk,
i agree with you, even the "best" fighter in the world has off days. isn't there a famous saying that goes something like -  the best fencer in france fears the worst fencer in france more than the second best fencer? anyway , it seems that in any interaction you are always playing the odds to a greater or lesser extent, and the best that you can do is to tip the balance in your favour as much as possible.
my teacher maestro umpad was a small man who weighed less than i do, and perhaps because of this he developed his subtlety of movement to such a degree that where he was and how fast he was moving was quite difficult to see. taller people who weighed 2, 3 times as much as him from all kinds of fighting backgrounds found him impossible to touch, even though we worked out in his, not very large, living room!
so back to the scenario in question...what i was thinking when i wrote my last reply was that 1) you don't know what skill your opponent has, but for sure they do not know what you have, so you may have the advantage of being underestimated. small changes in your own posture, weight shift ,body angle, movement should tell you if they have any training and you can act from that knowledge. 2) if they are running at you, scary but with no skill there are options because they are already commited with momentum so easier to read, hence you have the initiative in a way because you know how to get out of the way or counter.
of course if they are big, nasty and ferocious with a high level of skill, and suceed in freezing you, you are indeed screwed.

[Crafty_Dog]

Yiip!

A quick yip from southern Peru where I am checking in with my mom to make sure she is OK.

The internet connection here is lousy and I just had a post I wrote vaporized.   Arrrghh.

The Adventure continues,
CD

[armydoc]

Hey Rafael!

One is NOT going to get out of range unless you know how to get out of middle range.

---I absolutely agree!  I never said that training in the middle range wasn't important!  I only wished to point out that specific training in the outside ranges was important as well, and questioned why someone would stand and exchange at middle range if they didn't have to.

 As Ryan pointed out, long range is basically awareness and field experience coming into play.

---That is part of it.   But it can still be trained and practiced.  It deserves its own specific training attention and training.

 In real life application, the duelling aspects of knife happens too fast unless you have a longer weapon to keep the opponent at a farther distance than his own extended blade.

---Movement is movement.  It won't happen any faster than exchanges at middle range.  You also have more room and opportunity to use your footwork and body angling.

Why would one knife duel in long range if you already see it coming? You de-escalate , use an obstacle to gain escape....all kinds of avenues are open to you. It is also a better way to handle it in the court of law.

---I agree!  You only have to press the action at long range if absolutely necessary.   Otherwise get the h... out of there!  And knowing outside range knife skills may very well buy you enough time to get out of there without ever entering the "danger zone" of middle range.   But likewise, why would one stand and exchange at middle range if you have the opportunity to move out to long range?....where you can use an obstacle to gain escape or de-escalate?


Is there real life footage of this kind of knife fighting beyond a sport duel?

---I don't know.   Is there real life footage of someone using any of the FMA knife methods?

I've seen people severely cut on the hands and wrist, it doesn't even register -

---Then that would kind of negate the whole FMA idea of "defanging the snake"  or the more modern idea of "biomechanical cutting."  Unless, of course, those severe cuts weren't targeted very well.

 their forward pressure will overrun those who wish to play tag.

---That's where good footwork and mobility come in.   That's why fighting on the outside ranges needs its own emphasis.   If someone has only trained at the middle and close ranges, then they won't know how to deal with that forward pressure.

---By this comment, you make it sound like Sayoc doesn't spend a lot of time specifically training for the "outside" ranges.   Otherwise, "adjustment" would not be needed.  But then I may very well have misinterpreted your intent.

You misinterpreted my intent, correct.

---Then I offer my apologies!      So how much time does Sayoc Kali spend in specifically training the outside ranges?


Btw, how long have you trained in knife combatives?

---Off and on for at least 10 years now.   My first teacher was Rex Kimball....an early student of Guro Inosanto.  Rex was a knife maker and took special interest in the use of fighting knives.   I have also researched the knife combatives found in the historical western manuals from the middle ages and rennisance periods.   Another teacher I had for a short time was Dwight McLemore, who has done a lot of work with the Bowie knife methods.  I also have a pretty extensive video collection from various teachers.  Granted....working from videos is not the same as hands on instruction.  But once you have a good background and biomechanic in place....and some willing partners...., you can go a long way with videos.   

Keith

[Sun_Helmet]

---Movement is movement.  It won't happen any faster than exchanges at middle range.

In this context - that is incorrect.

But likewise, why would one stand and exchange at middle range...

No one stated anything about staying and exchanging in middle range. Read my first post.
A person has ONE layer. The difference is that how a person responds in the middle range dictates whether he dies or not, MORE than long range.

 Is there real life footage of someone using any of the FMA knife methods?

Look at any prison shanking footage.

---Then that would kind of negate the whole FMA idea of "defanging the snake"  or the more modern idea of "biomechanical cutting."  Unless, of course, those severe cuts weren't targeted very well.

No it negates it...that is correct. Again, you have to place the "snake" methods in their historical context as I stated earlier.

---That's where good footwork and mobility come in.   That's why fighting on the outside ranges needs its own emphasis.   If someone has only trained at the middle and close ranges, then they won't know how to deal with that forward pressure.

Unfortuantely, you are limiting your premise to suit your stance. I don't know ANY FMA school that ONLY teaches one range. I am talking about focusing on the range that is MOST LIKELY to mean life and death.

So how much time does Sayoc Kali spend in specifically training the outside ranges?

What's a suitable answer for you? You have inquired about this vague quantitative amount as if it amounts to quality several times now.

But once you have a good background and biomechanic in place....and some willing partners...., you can go a long way with videos.   
Keith

Excellent. I'll keep that in mind.

I teach tomahawk myself so it would be interesting to meet Mr. McElmore someday.
Anyone who has studied with Manong Dan deserves respect.
The same goes for anyone who Manong Dan highly respects, wouldn't you agree?.

As per Western dagger methods via manuals... there's huge gaps in the manuals concerning the  knife. However, the one thing they focus on almost exclusively is the MIDDLE range.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

[Guard Dog]

I am talking about focusing on the range that is MOST LIKELY to mean life and death.

This makes good sense to me, the following is the progression I like to use:

1.  Worst to Best Case Scenarios
2.  Ranges
3.  Attackers Draw Timeline


1.  Worst to Best Cases, in that order.

a.  you never see the knife coming, get stabbed and die.
b.  the knife comes out, you see it but don't have time to react, and die.
c.  the knife comes out, you react but in a way that you again, die.
d.  the knife comes out, you react, stop the blade from stabbing you.
e.  The knife comes out before you are in dangerous range, you run. (could be considered long range)

(it then makes sense that (c &d) should be examined the most which usually translates to middle range)

2. Ranges of Interception (from c&d):

a.  Short
b.  Medium
c.  Long (involves evasive footwork)
(this could be expounded upon - example being the seven range theory of stickfighting)


3. Attacker’s Draw Timeline (drawing the weapon):

a.  Reaching – reaching for the weapon
b.  Attaining Location – finding where the knife is (pocket, neck sheath, boot, belt clip)
c.  Gripping – securing a solid grip on the weapon
d.  Deployment – brandishing the weapon

We could then observe each of these three areas in more detail, especially 2 & 3 but most attacks have some sort of combination of the three areas.  I find however that most situations start and/or end in middle-short range.  This just happens to be, . . . you guess it; the range most energy/tapping drills are isolated.

Woof!

Gruhn

[Sun_Helmet]

  This just happens to be, . . . you guess it; the range most energy/tapping drills are isolated.

Woof!

Gruhn

True.

Sooner or later, people who use marketing claims of teaching against resisting opponents will come to realize these drills were created for a purpose.

They have to mature and someday realize the men who created these drills came from an even rougher neighborhood and background than most of them did and they weren't doing these middle range drills because they wanted to play some form of patty cake.

What they get confused with is that their LIMITED window into FMA does not equate to a complete understanding of the culture nor history of the art.

It is a never ending process.

--Rafael--

[armydoc]

Hey Rafael!

No one stated anything about staying and exchanging in middle range. Read my first post.
A person has ONE layer. The difference is that how a person responds in the middle range dictates whether he dies or not, MORE than long range.

---Then do you agree that staying out of middle range as much as possible is a desirable tactic?

 Is there real life footage of someone using any of the FMA knife methods?

Look at any prison shanking footage.

---Does that represent FMA knife methods?

---Then that would kind of negate the whole FMA idea of "defanging the snake"  or the more modern idea of "biomechanical cutting."  Unless, of course, those severe cuts weren't targeted very well.

No it negates it...that is correct.

---So you are saying that the ideas of "defanging the snake" or "biomechanical cutting" are invalid?


 Again, you have to place the "snake" methods in their historical context as I stated earlier.

---I'm not sure what you mean by this.   The "snake methods" I have been mentioning refer only to the idea of good evasive movement at precontact distances.

---That's where good footwork and mobility come in.   That's why fighting on the outside ranges needs its own emphasis.   If someone has only trained at the middle and close ranges, then they won't know how to deal with that forward pressure.

Unfortuantely, you are limiting your premise to suit your stance. I don't know ANY FMA school that ONLY teaches one range.

----Ah!  That's what I have been trying to get an answer too!     In my exposure to various FMA knife methods, the impression I have formed (rightly or wrongly) is that they place a large emphasis on training the middle range.   I have seen very little in the outside ranges.   And when I have been referring to "specific training", I mean training and methods designed for the outside ranges....not just occassional adaptations of middle range methods.

I am talking about focusing on the range that is MOST LIKELY to mean life and death.

---That's a good point!  One that Guro Crafty made as well.      No doubt this range is very important and deserves attention.  My point has been that the outside ranges are also important and deserve attention in their own right.  No one yet has seemed to acknowledged or agree on that point.

So how much time does Sayoc Kali spend in specifically training the outside ranges?

What's a suitable answer for you? You have inquired about this vague quantitative amount as if it amounts to quality several times now.

---Don't get me wrong!  I'm not trying to be critical of you or Sayoc Kali.   Again, I am asking if there is any significant attention given to the outside ranges in the FMAs.   I thought that asking someone from Sayoc Kali would be the best way to find out.  I figured that if any of the FMA spent a significant amount of time training in the outside ranges it would be Sayoc, since Sayoc seems to be the most comprehensive knife training around.  It shouldn't be a vague point at all.   Either the outside ranges are given significant attention or not.   A rough estimate would suffice.  So....compared to training the middle range material...does Sayoc Kali spend 10% of training time working the outside ranges?...30%....? 



I teach tomahawk myself so it would be interesting to meet Mr. McElmore someday.

---Mr. McElmore is a good teacher and a good guy.  You wouldn't  be disappointed.   


Anyone who has studied with Manong Dan deserves respect.
The same goes for anyone who Manong Dan highly respects, wouldn't you agree?.

---Of course!   But I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make?  Have I disrespected someone?   

As per Western dagger methods via manuals... there's huge gaps in the manuals concerning the  knife. However, the one thing they focus on almost exclusively is the MIDDLE range.

---That's not entirely accurate.  Huge gaps...yes.   As far as focus....the emphasis is actually on grappling movements with a large double-edged dagger.   While this is arguably middle range, it is quite different from the  "tippy-tappy" drills. 

Keith

[armydoc]

1.  Worst to Best Cases, in that order.

a.  you never see the knife coming, get stabbed and die.
b.  the knife comes out, you see it but don't have time to react, and die.
c.  the knife comes out, you react but in a way that you again, die.
d.  the knife comes out, you react, stop the blade from stabbing you.
e.  The knife comes out before you are in dangerous range, you run. (could be considered long range)


Hey Ryan!

Good breakdown!   But it seems to me that your scenarios assume the defender is unarmed.   Granted...that is how most situations would develop...you wouldn't have your knife out.   That's where the DLO material is so valuable.   You have to survive the attacker's initial onslaught.  Then perhaps you can create enough time and distance to draw your own knive in defense.   But I would posit that for a good percentage of the time, the time and distance created that allows you to draw your knife would also allow you to take a step back to the outside ranges.  Not everytime....but enough of the time to make "long range" skills a factor.   Again...the question I have asked several times..... if given the opportunity to step back from middle range....do you take it?   Or do you stand and exchange at middle range?   I still wonder if the large emphasis given to the middle range drills doesn't develop the mentality that says you should stand and exchange at middle range.   Common sense says not to.....but then the way you fight is the way you train.......(not you specifically, but the "general" sense of you).

Keith

[Guard Dog]

I apologize in advance for my post-UFC late night daze I am in.  

Good breakdown!   But it seems to me that your scenarios assume the defender is unarmed.   

c&d both can incorporate weapons in regards to both parties.  Notice how I left exact details out of the "Worst to Best Case Scenarios", this is because as you mentioned there can be  "Situational Change Variables" - such as a knife on the defenders end .  While not common over all, in knife on knife fights both c&d are very common.  For instance:

c: he draws, you draw (or visa versa) and respond but get stabbed in the process. (TONS of Gathering fights with this type of situation)

d: he draws, you draw and you do something to stop him from stabbing you.  This again could be a "Situational Change Variable" such as you stabbing him first.   

Again...the question I have asked several times..... if given the opportunity to step back from middle range....do you take it?   Or do you stand and exchange at middle range?   

In regards to stepping back if the range is available: this again involves Situational Change Variables and as everyone knows we could go on for days regarding "What if's."  "What if I could step back but another persons life is in danger", "What if I thought I had the room to back off but don't know that his buddies are coming", I am sure you can think of a bazillion other "what if" scenarios.  My point being, I don't think there is one concrete answer to your question here, it depends on the situation and the variables thrown into the mix.  Is this a fair answer?

Woof!

Gruhn

[Crafty_Dog]

Folks:

This tangent on knife range theory has been interesting, but lets see if we can bring things back to the original question about TTD and the criticisms leveled in some circles as to their benefit.  Lets remember that TTD can be knife, stick, empty hand, staff, EH vs. knife, etc.    Does this training method yield results worth the time invested?

Starting with conclusions first  IMHO well-thought out TTD properly understood and properly trained have considerable merit.

Are some/many TTD poorly thought out?  Yes.

Do many practitioners train their TTD without true understanding?  Yes.

Do many practitioners spend too much time in TTD/accumulating more TTD?  Yes.

These three truths lead many people to throw out TTD altogether.  If someone has never seen or never realized he has seen TTD yield good results, then this thinking makes perfect sense.

Back during the Live/Dead soap opera of a few years ago, one of the points I offered for consideration was that all of the best fighters in the Dog Brothers had this sort of training in their background.  As I have pointed out previously several times, one might watch a fight in which one fighter's superior media skills kick *ss and not realize that the reason he had superior media skills was in part because of substantial sombrada type training.

 In our "Kali Tudo" DVD one of my intentions was to show the next step in the training progression for Kali-Silat EH material that had been learned in DPs and TTDs for application in MMA. 

In our "Die Less Often" DVD the portion of the material I present draws upon skills and knowledge acquired via TTD.  BTW in the context of the knife range theory tangent in this thread, please note one of the most important skills being developed with this material is to open the range again, which IMHO is a skill not widely trained.  DLO-2, in editing now as you read this, the working title is "Bringing a gun to a knife fight"-- the key point is the ability to open the range at an angle so as to depart or access one's own weapon.  Hmmm, , , maybe I need to rethink the title a bit , , ,   

Anyway, in DLO-3 I will show the matrix of positions and techniques of DBMA's Kali Fence & Dog Catcher material.  This is the point at which you will see some TTDs because in DBMA we like to communicate what we perceive of as the primal realities/intensities very early on so that when we get to the TTDs, DPs etc, they are done with the understanding necessary to receive the benefits of which these training methods can be capable.

By the way, one of the positions in the matrix is my expression of something I learned in my training in Sayoc.  It comes from a particular position in the "receiver grip flow" ("flow" here being used as Inosanto Blend uses it in "lock flow").   Indeed this example could serve as a perfect example of how TTD training benefit manifests.  I learned the receiver grip flow and THIS IS WHAT ENABLED MY BODY TO RECOGNIZE THIS PARTICULAR OPPORTUNITY WHEN PRESENTED IN ACTION.   

The Adventure continues,
Crafty Dog

[Sun_Helmet]

---Then do you agree that staying out of middle range as much as possible is a desirable tactic?

If you are in a serious knife scenario, one of the last descriptions I would use is "desirable". You're talking about microseconds of "comfort".

---Does that represent FMA knife methods?  

Good joke.

---So you are saying that the ideas of "defanging the snake" or "biomechanical cutting" are invalid?

No it negates it...that is correct.

The "snake methods" I have been mentioning refer only to the idea of good evasive movement at precontact distances.

"Pre - contact distance" to me is not being in the same area as the knife attack.

In my exposure to various FMA knife methods, the impression I have formed (rightly or wrongly) is that they place a large emphasis on training the middle range.   I have seen very little in the outside ranges.   And when I have been referring to "specific training", I mean training and methods designed for the outside ranges....not just occassional adaptations of middle range methods.

The best answer for that is get more actual FMA field tested exposure.

No one yet has seemed to acknowledged or agree on that point.

The middle range is the most important range in knife combatives. It is the gateway. It is the most important because it is difficult to teach and is very combative. Thus, the creation of TTD... to assist in installing correct responses. As Guro Marc has stated some TTD's QUALITATIVE methods are suspect - as I alluded to in my intial post.

You have a comfort zone in the long range and will try to stay in that range, even in how you pose your questioning. Every post wants an affirmation of this long range comfort zone.

However, many here are informing you that reality will not side with you. Sorry.

I thought that asking someone from Sayoc Kali would be the best way to find out...... So....compared to training the middle range material...does Sayoc Kali spend 10% of training time working the outside ranges?...30%....? 

hmmm, that's still quantitative. We don't teach that way. We look for quality.
So 100 percent on quality.

Btw, asking is not always the best way to find out.

---That's not entirely accurate.  Huge gaps...yes.   As far as focus....the emphasis is actually on grappling movements with a large double-edged dagger.   While this is arguably middle range, it is quite different from the  "tippy-tappy" drills. 
Keith

Splitting hairs. Again you're talking about microseconds of response time - their gateway is the middle range.
I can analyze plate for plate progression for you. One is not acheiving grappling range without understanding the importance of middle range, not against someone who trains in that range.

The TTD is what is needed to fill those huge gaps of static poses when the concepts of depth perception, perspective, animation  and volume representation in drawing were still evolving.

In time, the WMA will learn this... once they apply it to the real world of combatives. Many WMA practitioners have already come to the same conclusion. Especially those who understand the limitations of these manuals' practical representation of anatomy and biomechanical movement or those who have been exposed to FMA for a considerable amount of time.

--Rafael--