At UFC 83 in Montreal

[PhilipG]

Got to see my BTT Canada team mate, Georges St Pierre, dominate Matt Serra at UFC 83 last night.

What a masterful performance. Quite a resurrection (it one was considered necessary).

I would not want to be Matt's ribs this morning.

Eeee Haw!

[Guard Dog]

Great performance by GSP.  His wrestling is looking SICK!

[peregrine]

GSP fought incrediblly well and made MS bjj look like child play.

Great demonstration of focus and reclaiming his dues(belt).
I want to know how to make peoples bjj look like kiddie stuff.

[Guard Dog]

I want to know how to make peoples bjj look like kiddie stuff.

Study BJJ 

[Howling Dog]

Woof, I think recent UFC history (except early ufc/royceGracie) would suggest that the wrestlers do quite well against the BJJ guys.
Also I think a factor is the wrestlers conditioning appears to be far superior........

I would suggest......learn wrestling ........arm bars and RNC'S are not rocket science and any one can lay on their back with their legs wrapped around your waist.....(think wife/girl friend )
                                                              TG
  Discalimer:Posted in good nature from a wrestlers point of view

[Guard Dog]

I think recent UFC history (except early ufc/royceGracie) would suggest that the wrestlers do quite well against the BJJ guys.

Also I think a factor is the wrestlers conditioning appears to be far superior........

I think these are dependent on the fighter.

I would suggest......learn wrestling ........arm bars and RNC'S are not rocket science and any one can lay on their back with their legs wrapped around your waist.....(think wife/girl friend )

The defense against RNC's Arm Bars, Triangles, etc. is rocket science though.  Especially against a good Ba Jay Jay black belt.

[Howling Dog]

Woof, I'am not trying to turn this into a wrestler vs. bjj debate but support your positon with factual examples please.

Heres my short list: Gsp vs. Matt Serra (bjj bb)
Rich Franklin vs. Travis Lutter (bjj bb)
Matt Hughes vs Royce Gracie (Bjj bb)
Kenny florian(bjj bb?) vs. Sean sherk
 BJ Penn vs. Matt hughes and GSP 
Josh Koscheck vs. Diego Sanchez (bjj bb?)
Sean Sherk vs. Hermes franca(Bjj bb)
Just few off the top of my head.........What cha got?
                                                                                            TG

[Guard Dog]

Take a look at the ranks of all of the people you just listed.  I think the lowest ranked BJJ'er on that list is Josh K. who is a purple belt in BJJ.  Everyone else is purple and above, many browns & blacks (GSP, RF, SS).

[Howling Dog]

In the matches I listed, Wrestlers defeated BJJ black belts.
With exception of Rich Franklin.
All the rest have a pretty substantial wrestling pedigrees even GSP trains with the Canadian olympic wrestling team.

GSP, Said in his post fight interview with Ken Flo, that his strategy was to out work Matt Serra, because his cardio was known to be suspect......I think thats fairly typical of bjj.

Can you give me a list of top wrestlers who have been beaten by BJJ guys?

I think my list is fair and substantial...and names top level bjj guys who have lost to wreslters.
                                                     TG

[PhilipG]

I firmly believe that those who successfully fight and win in MMA are no longer where they came from because it takes so much more that that to win in the octagon.

Even the best wrestlers come up short when they first start out in MMA but, like any elite level athletes, they quickly adapt. The better BJJers also train for cardio endurance now. GSP was a BJJer before he discovered wrestling. If you outside the limited focus of the UFC you will see many different fighting methods being successfully applied.

Anderson Silva, Muay Thai and BJJ. Minotauro Nogueira BJJ. Fedor Emilianenko (sp?) Sambo. Mark Hunt, Muay Thai. Wanderlei Silva Muay Thai & BJJ.

No doubt that wrestling has had an incredible impact on the fighting in the UFC but it has not overshadowed any other method that much.

[Howling Dog]

Woof Sled dog,

I firmly believe that those who successfully fight and win in MMA are no longer where they came from because it takes so much more that that to win in the octagon.

No argument there, I totally agree. I think that was the point, that Matt Hughes wanted to make when he fought Royce Gracie. At least Matt Hughes thought, that Royce and the Gracies, thought that they could still dominate in the UFC with BJJ alone.

Intrestingly enough MH beat RG at his own game......

GSP Has to be one of the most/best well rounded fighters in the ufc today........I would hate to speculate where hes strongest at.

I would however argue that, most fighters, while well rounded revert to what they know best when the heat gets hot and the pressure is really on.....weather it be wrestling, kick boxing or BJJ.......most all fighters have their safty net that they feel they can fall back on, if they need to, and a lot of times, most do.

GSP was a BJJer before he discovered wrestling.

Intresting. Makes this old wrestler smile

Those examples that I gave of Wrestlers vs. BJJ black belts.....were losses by the bjj black belts on the ground, where they should have been at their best.

I make no secret about my feelings that BJJ is over rated.....take a wrestler and teach him a few submissions and you got a VERY fromidable ground guy.
After all how many different chokes and submissions do you actually see being pulled off in the UFC? Arm bar,RNC, Triangle choke and an occassional other.....but not often.
                                                                            Dog TG

[Crafty_Dog]

May I offer for consideration that you are comparing different gene pools?

People who go out for wrestling and make the team tend to be superior specimens, whereas anyone can go do BJJ.

[rio]

Guro Crafty i'm a little shocked right now.  you would disavow one art for anther, even being a Machado practitioner? i agree, you resort to what you know best. but if you train multilateraly like BJJ- MuayThai or Chute Boxe then your covering all your bases from the beginning. but to say to better your game you should stay with your base style and add "wrestling" doesn't mean you're any better at one than the other. that would mean that two BJJ guys fought saturday and that the guy that "shot" faster won. No Way! you're taking away GSP's athletic ability to adapt and just totally run that big mouth Serra into the ground.

Anderson Silva, Minatauro, and Wand all train out of the same gym - Chute Boxe Academy. an academy that trains all those styles together.

Travis Lutter was doing pretty good until he got his bell rung. i bet Rich's arm is pretty sore this week after being twisted into a pretzel.

Mea Cupla,  Mea Culpa

[Guard Dog]

i bet Rich's arm is pretty sore this week after being twisted into a pretzel.

BTW, Beautiful BJJ hitchhiker escape done by RF to get out of that arm bar!

[Howling Dog]

Woof Rio, I don't think that Guro Crafty was disavowing one art for another, at all. Niether am I for that matter. BJJ has its merits for sure

What he was/is saying  and I do agree with is, WHO wrestlers are. At least those that compete at a high level.
By and large they tend to be superior athletes both mentaly and physicaly.(superior to the avg. athlete)
The sport is super tough.
Not everyone can wrestle COMPETITVLY and about the onley place you can learn wreslting is in a competitve enviorment, so the pool of athletes is limited to those who are most serious about the sport.
If you want to be a high school state champ in the state of Ohio you better start wrestling at about 5 years of age. Thats just to become a HIGH SCHOOL STATE CHAMP.  Let alone college level.

Most everyone can practice BJJ there are commercial schools out there that will teach you as long as you pay......not so with wrestling
Rio what is your back ground?
Do you have much actual knowledge of wrestling? Have you ever actually wrestled, or better yet wrestled with a wrestler? (just curious)
                                                 Dog SB
I'am not, nor was I trying to disrespect BJJ, I was just responding to Gruhns statement: to the question of how to make a guys BJJ look like Kiddie stuff......He said learn BJJ.......I simply suggest.....Learn wrestling.
I think past history clearly points that wrestlers do very well against BJJ.....case in point......GSP sat. night destroyed Matt Serra a Gracie Black Belt......using wrestling and ground and pound.
IMHO GSP Wrestled Matt Serra........and did not employ BJJ....... I'am a former wrestler and wrestling coach by the way.

[Guard Dog]

**One of my friends was intrigued by this thread and has had the good 'ol "wrestling beats BJJ" conversation a time or two.  Since he does not have an account here, I am posting some of his thoughts.  For the record he has trained with some extremely high level collegiate wrestlers and is rather highly ranked in BJJ himself.**

"No one in their right mind thinks that you can dominate modern MMA with one style alone, be it wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai, White Crane Kung Fu, etc. 

What is strange to me in this day and age where so much information is available, is that anyone still holds on to the idea that when a fighter is on top, he is “wrestling”; when a fighter is on the bottom, he is “doing BJJ”.  While some BJJ fighters find success off their back, few would prefer to be there.  Most would much prefer to be here:

Ronaldo “Jacare” Souza (Multiple time BJJ World Champ) vs. Bill Vuccik (wrestler)


Sometimes achieving a position like this on a highly skilled wrestler is possible; other times, it’s very difficult. 

It is vital not to overlook the fact that every example you cited of a “wrestler” defeating a BJJ stylist HAS A HIGH RANKING IN BJJ THEMSELVES.  They didn’t learn a few submission defenses here and there – they devoted enough time and training to a style they realized was invaluable; important enough to gain a high rank and continue to progress in it.  Some of them even (gsp) train in a gi!  (Sean Sherk, Josh Koscheck, GSP)

A significant reason Sean Sherk (BJJ brown belt) was able to defeat Hermes Franca (BJJ Black belt) was because his half guard passing was HIGHLY developed.  He put on a half-guard passing clinic against Franca.  Passing the half guard (especially in the sophisticated and varied manner that he did) is not a wrestling skill, it is a BJJ skill.  In addition, 12 of Sherk’s 31 MMA victories have come via submission, with a variety of techniques such as RNC’s, Americanas (shoulder locks), Arm Triangles, Neck Cranks, etc.  None of which he learned in wrestling, they all came from his years of training with Greg Nelson (BJJ Black Belt) and Erik Paulson (BJJ Black Belt, Shooto Champion)

Sean (the wrestler) even goes for submissions from his back when the opportunity presents itself.

Sean Sherk Vs Matt Hughes: (looks suspiciously BJJ-ish to me)




The first time they fought, Matt Hughes (wrestler) defeated GSP with a spinning armlock counter to a kimura attempt.  A BJJ move.

The third time they fought, GSP (wrestler? His fight team is Brazian Top Team Canada, and he lists BJJ as his style) defeated Matt Hughes with a spinning armlock from side control.  BJJ move.

A few off the top of my head (and these aren’t including the lightweight divisions and smaller events where BJJ World champs have been tearing up the scene recently)

o   Anderson Silva (BJJ Black Belt) def. Dan Henderson (Olympic Wrestler) via RNC
o   Roger Gracie (BJJ BB) def. Ron Waterman (wrestler) via straight armlock from the guard
o   Rodrigo “Minotauro” Noguierra def. Mark Coleman (USA Team Wrestler) via Triangle/Armlock from the guard
o   Paulo Filho (BJJ BB) def. Chael Sonnen (Oregon State wrestler) via armlock from the guard



BJ Penn (BJJ BB) def. Matt Hughes (wrestler) via RNC


It’s really a pointless argument.  For every wrestler beating a BJJ Black belt, you can find a BJJ black belt beating a wrestler.  And really, by saying that BJJ is overrated because good wrestlers can find success against it….you are UNDER-valuing wrestling.  Wrestling is a fantastic grappling style, which fills many of the holes in BJJ, and vice versa.  To make it a style vs. style debate is very 1993."

If you want to be a high school state champ in the state of Ohio you better start wrestling at about 5 years of age. Thats just to become a HIGH SCHOOL STATE CHAMP.  Let alone college level.

Penn State's 4x NCAA All American, 2008 National Champion started wrestling in 7th grade out of Harrisburg.  He’s now focusing on learning BJJ to begin his MMA career, and is fascinated by how technical it is.  He actually stated that the BJJ he trained for three months prior to his senior wrestling season helped him maneuver his opponent’s limbs more efficiently, ultimately leading to his National Title.  Interesting . . .

Woot!

Gruhn

[Howling Dog]

Woof, As I have stated more than once......my point is/was to adress how to make a guys BJJ look like kiddie stuff, was to simply learn wrestling.

I'am by no means trying to say wrestling can dominate by itself in the UFC, If you look at my post with sled dog I agreed that in order for a fighter to compete in the UFC, HE HAS TO BE WELL ROUNDED.

This includes submissions. I don't however see a need to spend 10 years and thousands of dollars to earn a "black belt.

If you look at a lot of the "American" fighters in the UFC A lot of them come froma wrestling background as their core.
I think this is highley benifical and not by accident.
These guys know how to diet, train cardio like mad men and are very comfortable in take downs and take down defense as well asfighting on the ground...ect.ect......

Penn State's 4x NCAA All American, 2008 National Champion started wrestling in 7th grade out of Harrisburg.  He’s now focusing on learning BJJ to begin his MMA career, and is fascinated by how technical it is.  He actually stated that the BJJ he trained for three months prior to his senior wrestling season helped him maneuver his opponent’s limbs more efficiently, ultimately leading to his National Title.  Interesting . . .

Bythe way,Whats his name? I would like to look up his credentials as a colllege wresler.
Of course then again you make my point that hes comming from a wrestling background. that in my opinon puts him at a huge advantage in learning BJJ.
Why do you insist BJJ is so "TECHINCAL"?
                                                             TG

[PhilipG]

I always remember, way back in 1968-1969, when I was on my High School wrestling team. It has impacted my training ever since. As far as Crafty's gene pool reference, I came from a small town so showing up for the try outs with all parts intact was generally the way onto the team.

[Howling Dog]

Woof Gruhn, Hopefully you will get around to responding to my last post.
Something else that caught my attention concerning your man at Penn state:

He actually stated that the BJJ he trained for three months prior to his senior wrestling season helped him maneuver his opponent’s limbs more efficiently, ultimately leading to his National Title.  Interesting . . .

Since colligate wrestling and BJJ are definetly contrasting arts, I would be intrested to hear how BJJ helped him maneuver his limbs in such a way that it helped him win his national title.
Surley it did not come from the guard position because that position is highly unfavorable to a wrestler.....we call it getting pinned
So please expound on your intresting statement that BJJ helped the guy win a national title.....
                                                                           TG

[peregrine]

This has turned into quite a thread.


I am boycotting both bjj and wrestling instead i am going to study PRO-WRESTLING so i can mongo smash you guys, then follow up with a flying elbow smash.

I tend to agree with Craftys ascertation that wrestlers in general are superior genetically, this is more due to the lesser athletes being cut or quitting than the activity in itself.  To wrestle you have to continouslly make the cut and are fire tested by your own team to fight for your slot and by the numerous matches. Wrestling has a long American history, this has created a culture around wrestling and many dynastys. If you're fortunate to be around these groups you begin to form a mindset that many other sports do not equate to on an athlete per athlete basis. Sure you have mentally as well as physically tough football players, track stars, cross country runners, water polo, boxers, lacrosse- but there is a reason many of the guys that tend to make specialized military units are from the wrestling pool than any other sport. A work ethic, a mental edge, fire tested repeatedlly, dietting, competition, innate personal drive.

BJJ is a great sport that showed what many of us in our hearts always want to believe it is possible for a smaller more skilled opponent can defeat a larger one. But bjj is a business in general and people learn because they pay someone else to teach them.
With the popularity of todays mma, the forced evolution of tma and the rapid advances in fight related fitness we will see less of a smaller opponent repeatedlly beating a larger opponents unless there attributes are quantum leaps apart.
Ryan i know you get some time with both aesop and jeff rockwell.

Both bjj and wrestling are great skills to own.

[peregrine]

After i reread this another thought popped into my lizard brain.

I'm less likely to run into some blackbelt bjj or collegiate wrestler in my local liquor store hassle. So i do not comprehend the exact nature of the coorelation between high level bjj or wrestlers in a controlled environment.

What i am likely to encounter is some pos who has watched the ufc, along with the new thug mma show on BET. They will know the general positions, the general submissions, etc. their game has a good chance of not being tight, a high chance of a weapon being involved with an inherent likelihood for viciousness.

My educated reasoning leads me to believe a moderate level of wrestling with a crash course in striking has a superior chance than a mid to high level sport bjj player. Or am i making an unfair argument because i am incorporating multiple disciplines? I do not think so, many mid and even a few high level bjj players have unsatisfactory takedowns, and may be monkey trapped using a gi, while even first year wrestlers have atleast 1 really good takedown and maybe a slam as well.

[Guard Dog]

Baahhhahahah, peregine you are cracking me up!   Tom, it isn't hard to figure out who the wrestler is, look up the national standings and he is the only PSU 2008 champ.  I'd like to be respectful however and keep his information confidential, please do the same.

[rio]

WHO wrestlers are. At least those that compete at a high level.

the only place you can learn wreslting is in a competitve enviorment, so the pool of athletes is limited to those who are most serious about the sport.

Mr Guthrie, you've just described all competitive combat sports in general. . .  not like any fighter has ever had to cut weight hours before a tourney; boxing, wrestling, judo, jiujits, sambo . . .  workout after workout, suicide drills and Bull in the Ring, constant dieting, trash bag suits and shaving your head at the scale- coach holding a towel so the stat girls dont get too excited. i've done it all, and teach it. i'm just saying . . .

we could argue this until the next big fight. i'm just glad GSP made a fool of Serra. but not because the BJJ'er could wrestle. one man prevailed and prevailed in dominating fashion.

so i guess we're back to square one around here, old UFC rules. one style against another and not blended well rounded fighters. lets call Caille Sanderson(?) to a gathering and see what he could do? . . .

be careful wrestlers, i know you like ur singlets and all (pretty snazzy) i might just feed you my lead leg. your shoot better be clean and lightning quick, cuz if it seemed to easy . . . you'll look up and see a sniper scope smile, "Gotcha!"

[Howling Dog]

Woof, While its tempting to go with this, I see no real value in it. So for me.....I' am pretty much done.
I have my views and opinions as do all of you.
Of course the BJJ guys would  and should take offense to my insinuations that wrestlers can beat them.
My onley suggestion to the BJJ guys is check out wrestling programs and do your home work on what all is involved.
Solid wrestling programs are actually really hard to come by so it may not be worth your effort.....besides I would hate to shake your faith in the magic of BJJ......

I actually think Pergrine makes some valid points, esp when it comes to street or actuall combat situations And bJJ. A good way for a 150lb average joe to get the back of his head power bombed off the side walk is.....pull gaurd on some enraged opponent 

Rio have you been to a gathering? Lots of wrestling goes on there.
 I'am not sure I know you, have we met?
I will be there at the August gathering will you?
What kind of competions have you fought in?
Do you consider BJJ a combat sport?
I may be a ltitle on the fence about the "combat" part.
                                                   Dog TG
By the way the next UFC should be very intersting to this conversation.....BJ Penn vs. Sean Sherk

 

[selfcritical]

Anderson Silva, Minatauro, and Wand all train out of the same gym - Chute Boxe Academy. an academy that trains all those styles together.

None of these people train at Chute Boxe anymore, and Nog never did(he was on BTT, which was Chute Boxe's rival). Anderson Silva, Minotauro and Lyoto Machida all train at Black House now.

Wand trains in the states.

[peregrine]

Baahhhahahah, peregine you are cracking me up!  

Ryan - This thread itself cracks me up. cheers.
I actually learned a new word today in another forum as i let my exuberance and street slang out about an article citing a study on testosterone levels.
The word is arete.
So now i must attend toastmasters every monday and English as a First language tuesdays and thursdays. haha. In all fairness i often write unintelligble posts that only people from Hawaii or rednecks could understand.


back on topic-
GSP- dominated not only won. It reminded me of how some athletes can be so dominant at an international level- Jordan, Roy Jones Jr., BJ Penn and others. Superior athlete and attributes.

 

[Jeff Rockwell]

Hello all,

I apologize in advance for the long post!  A little background on me: I’m a BJJ brown belt under Ricardo De La Riva and consider jiu-jitsu to be my overall style, though I have trained wrestling, judo, sambo, CSW, Kali/Escrima, Thaiboxing and other styles back in the day.  While I’ve never entered a Gathering, I used to train Kali a good bit, and have always been a big fan of the Dog Brothers.  I sparred full contact with the stick many times and took my share of stick-hickies (though I never stripped down to just a fencing mask – a lacrosse helmet was the thinnest shield my brain allowed me to don). In years past, I’ve fought in amateur kickboxing and MMA events; I am still an active competitor in BJJ and submission grappling tournaments.  I run a small BJJ school in PA, and I’m fortunate enough to train with ex-All American and National Champion wrestlers on a regular basis.  Several of them are now coming to me to help prepare them for adventures in MMA.

Perhaps I need to let them know that seeking me out was a mistake, and all they really need to do is go train more wrestling.

Tom, while I don’t really expect to change your mind, I hope I can make you see how your good natured-yet-dismissive attitude towards BJJ is not only antiquated, but counter-productive to your own training and those around you. 

Nearly every top MMA team has a high level BJJ/Submission coach, whether their fighters hold belt rankings or not.  Every team has a striking coach.  Every team has a wrestling coach. Every team has a strength and conditioning coach.  Each one is a vital aspect of modern martial arts training.   

We saw what happened years ago when a pure BJJ stylists met pure wrestling stylists.  The wrestlers usually got submitted.  Then the wrestlers learned enough BJJ to defend submissions and pass the guard.  Then the BJJ guys got pounded.  Then the BJJ guys learned wrestling takedowns and striking.  Then the strikers learned enough wrestling to sprawl and brawl, and  enough BJJ to survive on the bottom and get back to their feet. Then the BJJ guys and strikers realized they needed more strength and conditioning (something the wrestlers already had).  Then the wrestlers learned striking.  Then everyone started learning EVERYTHING, and wondered why they hadn’t done so in the first place.  Now it’s all one big happy family that punches, kicks, slams, and chokes each other to see who’s the best on any given Sunday.  The only thing still up for debate is “what style is best to use as a foundation for MMA?”  There are strong arguments to be made and examples to be given for each one, and I don’t presume to know the answer.  It often comes down to the individual, I think.

You asked “why do you insist that BJJ is so technical?”  Well, initially I didn’t, I was quoting our national wrestling champ who is enjoying his BJJ training, but now I’ll go ahead and insist on it as well.  That’s not to say wrestling (when done at a high level) can’t be very technical also.  I have been lucky enough to train with some VERY technical wrestlers over the years; they’ve helped my game immensely and given me a vast amount of respect for wrestling.  The contrast is that in BJJ, technical detail, relaxation, momentum, and timing are generally given emphasis over strength, speed, conditioning, and other physical attributes.  In wrestling, technique is often viewed as just another attribute which is given equal priority to the rest.  If you did something technically, great; but if you didn’t and it worked anyway, great.  In BJJ, success without technical precision in the training hall is frowned upon; in wrestling, success by any means available is usually encouraged. In BJJ, a coach might be overheard telling his students to relax and flow when sparring.  In wrestling, my coaches always said “Go harder!  Be rougher!  Be mean!”  A famous BJJ quote is “You have to flow with the go”.  Going and flowing are not things that are usually emphasized in wrestling.  There are some exceptions to this for sure, but in my experience, that has been the overall trend.

“Since colligate wrestling and BJJ are definetly contrasting arts, I would be intrested to hear how BJJ helped him maneuver his limbs in such a way that it helped him win his national title.
Surley it did not come from the guard position because that position is highly unfavorable to a wrestler.....we call it getting pinned
So please expound on your intresting statement that BJJ helped the guy win a national title.....”

Again, this was his statement, not mine.  And to clarify, his statement was that “the BJJ he trained… helped him maneuver his opponent’s limbs more efficiently “.  Not his – his opponent’s.  I trained with him at lunch today, and I asked him how he applied what he learned in BJJ during wrestling matches.  He was more than happy to show me.  He took the leverage points of the straight armlock that he learned (not rocket science, just physics) and he would use them to torque his opponent’s arms en route to getting a reversal.  He did it in a very clever way which to a referee would appear to be a harmless pulling on an opponent straight arm.  But he was actually creating pressure and applying a straight armlock, forcing his opponent to move unless he wanted his elbow damaged.  I would try to explain the exact positioning in text, but it would make this very long post even longer.  Anyway, some might say that moves like this are very common in wrestling, and I’m sure they are…but he developed this one, in this position, from his BJJ training.  Take it for what it’s worth.

While this particular wrestler did not say he used techniques from the guard (though his guard is getting pretty good), I have spoken to other wrestlers who also train BJJ, and several of them have used butterfly hook sweeps in actual wrestling matches.  If you’re not familiar, a butterfly guard does not have the practitioner lying flat on his back (which would of course be a pin), but has him sitting up on one hip or the other, usually controlling the top man with an underhook or overhook.  He then uses his insteps or “hooks” along with his opponent’s momentum and weight to reverse his opponent in a number of ways and come to the top position.  Not something that one would want to employ as a primary strategy in a wrestling match, but not a bad skill to have in a scramble.

“I would suggest......learn wrestling.......arm bars and RNC'S are not rocket science and any one can lay on their back with their legs wrapped around your waist.....(think wife/girl friend)”

Armbars may not be rocket science, but when you take into consideration every setup, every entry, every variation, every counter and re-counter, every grip break, every body type and energy that has to be adjusted for…it gets pretty complex.  Now apply that to every other submission, every sweep, every position, every guard pass, every positional escape – now you have BJJ, and it takes years to master.

“A good way for a 150lb average joe to get the back of his head power bombed off the side walk is.....pull gaurd on some enraged opponent.”

See, it’s statements like these that won’t let me let this dog (no pun intended) lie.  Do you REALLY think that all BJJ consists of is pulling guard and desperately fighting from there?  Have you ever FELT the control, precision, and pressure that comes from the top game of a high level BJJ athlete?  Who do you train with?  I only ask because that statement seems to indicate a lack of true understanding of BJJ strategy, and a lack of experience of training with someone with a crushing top game like Mario Sperry, for example.  For BJJ strategy, take Rickson Gracie for an example – clinch, takedown, guard pass, mount, backmount, choke.  Only use the guard if things go wrong and you are forced there.  When the opening arises, kick away and stand up or go for a reversal.  There is a reason most of his fights look the same; it’s BJJ strategy and BJJ tactics, combined with BJJ technique.

(As an aside, I would have loved to have seen Rickson and Mark Shultz fight MMA back in their primes.  I heard a story that they once trained together, they sparred for a very long time, and Rickson could not submit Shultz.  It would have been awesome to watch them go at it in the ring, to really see one of the best pure BJJ guys versus one of the best pure wrestlers.)

Back to the issues at hand.  The assertion that “GSP beat Matt Serra with takedowns and ground & pound = victory for pure wrestling” is a bad argument.  GSP beat Serra with a beautiful combination of MMA – every art that he studies was on display.  If it weren’t for his extensive striking training, he would not have been so comfortable defending and closing the distance on their feet.  If it wasn’t for his extensive wrestling training, he would not have been to execute such powerful and effective takedowns.  If it wasn’t for his strength and conditioning training, he would not have been able to maintain his power and intensity.  And if it wasn’t for his BJJ training, he would not have been able to control his opponent on the ground, pass his guard, and advance his position following a specific hierarchy, allowing him to strike freely and finish the fight.

This point you made is a good one; to be a good fighter, you don’t have to spend thousands of dollars to earn a BJJ Black belt.  But to compete at the highest levels, you do need to put in the time and training to actually learn and attain a high level of skill in the art, even if it does not become the foundation of your “A” fighting game.  JUST AS YOU DO WITH WRESTLING.  I'm sure you would laugh at the idea that someone could just learn a sprawl and expect to stay on their feet against a good wrestler.  You can't just train a little wrestling - you have to become a wrestler yourself.  And this, as you know takes a long time, and a lot of hard training.  Unfortuntely, you just don’t get a pretty colored belt for it.

Again, sorry for the long post - like you, most of this was written in a very good-natured manner.  I did, however, feel that some clarifications would be beneficial, and I hope the entire morning I spent writing all this crap wasn’t entirely wasted.

I haven’t earned the right to sign off with any kind of “woof”; but as the animal of choice at my gym is a hawk, I’ll give you an:

 AAAWWWWWWK!

 
Best,

Jeff Rockwell
Raptor Brazilian Jiu-jitsu
State College, PA

[Howling Dog]

Jeff, Well I got absolutley no sense of bais from your post .
Your obviously a bjj guy who has trained some, in some other arts, correct?

Now it’s all one big happy family that punches, kicks, slams, and chokes each other to see who’s the best on any given Sunday.

I have from the very begining of this mess, always been in agreement that, a well rounded fighter with knowledge in various arts is important....including submissions.

I think a wreslter with some knowledge of submissions is sufficent......sure a little bit of guard pass is also helpful, but then thats not rocket science either.
I know that ego is huge in BJJ, but try not to make BJJ out to be anything more than what it is....fighting or a from of fighting.
There is nothing new to martial arts that people have not been doing, since Cain slew Able.....I agree training and practicing defiently makes for a better fighter, than just animal aggression.
I guess my point being, Some people tend to make way to much out of martial arts.....as if it is some kind of magical, invincible force......to this I adamently disagree.

I can say without much hesitation, that most if not all of your trainning, is devoted to BJJ.......I would guess you do very little stand up and probably even less pure wrestling.
I would also guess that you feel your BJJ suffices for your wrestling training.
I'am fine with that........I just happen to feel my wrestling training suffices for my BJJ training.....with the exceptions that we practices submissions and gaurd passes. ect.

Some of the things you spoke of concerning wrestling I disagree with. Esp. with regard to technique and finesse.
As a coach we never teach our wrestlers to muscle an opponent, or try to out strengthen them but to rely on speed, executaion of technique, form and all the same attributes that, I'am sure you equate to BJJ......
Yes wrestlers are generally really strong and muscular, mostly because of the training and what it takes to go full go for 3 periods.
Like I said,before pulling guard in wrestling is end game(pinned) and lack of movement or trying to better your position is called STALLING a wrestler gets penalized for this, where as its acceptable practice in BJJ.....Hence what I think is the key attribute to wrestlers being in general better conditioned and stronger than BJJ prcationers(imho)
Anyway.......I'am out on this.....I have said my piece and as I have also said my views and opinons are also my own....your entitled to yours as well.....Have a nice day.

[Jeff Rockwell]

Did you actually read my post?  I'm only asking because the conclusions you drew from it were pretty much the opposite of what I stated.

As I said, not really expecting to change your mind, you sound very set in your beliefs.  I hope you have the chance to work with some high level BJJ guys some day who are at or near your weight class.  I had a great workout with my PSU wrestling champ today, we're working out again on Friday.  Luckily he is extremely open-minded as well as freakishly talented.  I can't wait until he gets in the ring, he will be submitting people left and right.

It's all good.  Have a nice day!

[Howling Dog]

Jeff, Please tell me where my conclusions are the opposite of what I stated. I'am all ears.

I would also be intrested to hear where your standing is and how much you trained at Judo, Sambo, and all the other areas of martial arts you've trained at. you state a pretty impressive list for a 32 year old guy, just curious as to how much time you put into learning each.
You stated you fought amatuer kick boxing and mma......How many fights have you had in each?
I'am not all that concerned about your record....just your experience.

Please excuse my skeptisim, I have run into more than one key board warrior in my time on the net including this forum. So in advance no disrespect intended.
                                                                        TG

[Jeff Rockwell]

I'm not at all concerned by your skepticism; a little skepticism is healthy.  If you answer my question as to who you currently train BJJ with, or have trained with in the past, I'll be more than happy to give you my training and competition resume.  Get yours ready too.   I personally don't think mine is particularly impressive, many others have done much more with their 32 years.  But it has been intense enough and well rounded enough to give me a decent perspective and make me keep an open mind.  Can you say the same?

BTW, you'll notice that I posted under my real name, gave an introductory bio, and gave the name and location of my school in my first post.  I don't exaggerate any of my training or competition, as it's pretty easy to verify these days.

But let's stay on topic for a minute.  Maybe something has been lost in the sudden urge to verify each others' credentials; my sole assertion is this:

If you are saying that someone coming from an extensive wrestling background only needs a small amount of submission training to be successful at the highest levels of MMA, I respectfully disagree.  I think that about sums it up.

[Maxx]

I grew up on the Border Of East LA. I got my grappling training there. It was called getting Jumped! 

[Howling Dog]

Jeff, I do not or have not trained formal BJJ. Also if you look at my past posts on this thread you will see where I HAVE given bjj proper merit. I continue to do so.

As for a brief resume of my past experience: High school wrestler, and coach for the last 4 years.....While serving six plus years in the navy I studied Chuan fa Kung fu, Ed Parkers kenpo Karate recieved begginers belts in both.....
while stationed in Subic Bay Philippines I trained Kuntaw karate with Seal team 1 earning first class brown belt, however we did more of what I call combat karate employing lots of knife and stick fighting as well as judo, akido, and small amonut of kung fu.....however core was Kuntaw karate.

After I out of the navy I kickboxed for a brief period of time fighting amature Wka....
Since I come from a small town in Ohio quality martial arts schools are hard to come by....so for a time I got out of martial arts and just practiced on my own, and really got involved in weight training.

For the last five years I have been involved with the Dog brothers martial arts  and am a group leader iin DBMA. I have fought in three gatherings and will be fighting in August.
I'am now 47 years old. Ok?
Your turn.......
                                        Dog TG

[Jeff Rockwell]

Thanks for the quick reply...gotta run to dinner with the wife, but I'll try to reply later this evening.  If it gets too late, first thing tomorrow, I promise.

[Jeff Rockwell]

Swamped at work this morning, more soon!

[Howling Dog]

Can hardly wait .......Its not that big a deal.......I was just intrested in how well rounded you actually consider yourself comparitively to your BJJ brown belt......which I assume has taken you a number of years of dedicated training.
I'am really interseted at what levels you have achieved at these other arts/styles and how much time you put into them.

I have trained wrestling, judo, sambo, CSW, Kali/Escrima, Thaiboxing and other styles back in the day.  While I’ve never entered a Gathering, I used to train Kali a good bit, and have always been a big fan of the Dog Brothers.

When you say back in the day....whats that mean? I hardley consider youy old at 32.

What do make of Dumog?

If you are saying that someone coming from an extensive wrestling background only needs a small amount of submission training to be successful at the highest levels of MMA, I respectfully disagree.  I think that about sums it up.

Chuck Lidell Wrestled at Cal poly sci. and has done very well in mma without submissions
Can you say Babaloo? BJJ black belt I beleive?
I think that about sums up my point (respectfully)
                                                               TG

[Jeff Rockwell]

I give you an Afro-man in response to your eye-rolling man!     You say it's no big deal, but I bet you'd be giving me a lot of crap if I didn't come through. 


You know, I like a lot of the dirty tricks of Dumog that Paulson and Guro Dan used to show, but I never was really exposed to it as a system in and of itself, so it's hard to say.  We would always be training BJJ or sub wrestling and they would stop and show a variation and say "in Catch, they do it like this; in Dumog, they do it like this."  I picked up a few things here and there, but I really don't know enough to speak of the effectiveness of the overall system.

As far as I know, Chuck Liddell is still a purple belt in BJJ (under John Lewis of Novia Uno, I think).  His skill level is probably higher than that, as he's held that rank for a number of years.  Just because he doesn't use subs in the octagon doesn't mean he isn't training jiu-jitsu on a daily basis.

If you know the history of Babalu, you know he came from primarily a wrestling background, and still competed in national wrestling competitions in Brazil up until the last few years.  Then he was a long time student of Marco Ruas, whose "Ruas Vale Tudo" system came from Luta Libre - the no-gi, wrestling based arch-rival of Jiu-jitsu in Brazil for many years.  It is only relatively recently in his career that he began formally training in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu (including with the gi), and in interviews he has said it has been like night and day for him.

Ok, on to my not-so-illustrious past:

*I am pretty sure about the dates, but I am relying on memory, which is not as good as it once was.  I realize that some of the dates overlap; this is because I was training multiple places during the same years.

General Training history:

1994-2000 – Martial Arts Koncepts in Maryland & GMU JKD Club
- Jun Fan Gung Fu, Thaiboxing, BJJ, Shootwrestling, Sambo, Judo, Kali/Arnis/Escrima, Silat, Bando, and even a little ninjitsu

1996-1997 – Sambo/Japanese Jiu-jitsu under Bruce Jones, NOVA

1997-2000 – Trident Academy of Martial Arts (Pat Tray)
   - BJJ, Wrestling (coach was D.1 GMU wrestler), Thaiboxing, CSW/Shooto, FMA

2001-2005 – Fusion Academy Brazilian Jiu-jitsu (Pedro Sauer Affiliate)
   - BJJ, Wrestling (Coach was D.1 JMU wrestler), Submission Wrestling, Thaiboxing, MMA

2003-2004 – Private Freestyle/Greco Wrestling training with several D.1 All American wrestlers (Penn State and JMU)

2005- 2006 – Oregon Pound BJJ Academy – (Pedro Sauer Affiliate)
   - BJJ, Wrestling (coach was D.1. Oregon State wrestler), Submission Wrestling

2006-Present – Raptor Brazilian Jiu-jitsu (De La Riva Affiliate)
   - BJJ, Wrestling (coached by various PSU wrestlers), Submission Wrestling

2007 - Private Judo training with former US National team member

Add to this countless seminars and private lessons with instructors like Marcelo Garcia, Ricardo De La Riva, Guro Dan Inosanto, Erik Paulson, Burton Richardson, Master Chai, Rigan Machado, Pedro Sauer, Tony Passos, Matt Thornton, Moacir “Boca” Olivera, Garth Taylor, Alvaro Barretto, Frank Cucci, Rick Tucci…many more I’m sure I’m forgetting.

General Competition History:

Thaiboxing/Kickboxing

-   1999 Combat Knockdown Challenge Tournament, Woodbridge, VA
-   2000 Combat Knockdown Challenge Tournament, Woodbridge, VA

MMA
-   1999 King of the Ring, VA Beach
-   2003 King of the Ring, VA Beach

BJJ/Submission Wrestling Highlights:(sorry, the timeline is reversed, this is cut and pasted from an actual resume I send to competition promoters)

September, 2007   Western PA BJJ Championships                Pittsburgh, Pa
•   First place, Men’s Brown Belt Division (middleweight)

May, 2007   Kumite Classic                                  Pittsburgh, Pa
•   First place, Men’s Purple Belt Division (175)
•   Third Place, Men’s Advanced No-Gi (175)

April, 2007        US Grappling                                  Richmond, VA
•   First place, Men’s Purple Belt division (169lbs)
•   First place, Men’s Advanced No-Gi (169lbs)
•   Tied for 3rd, Men’s No-gi Advanced Absolute

September, 2006        Chester County BJJ Open                                  Exton, Pa
• First place, Absolute Purple Belt Division – Submitted opponent via straight armlock from the guard in the finals

June, 2006        SBG Submission Wrestling League Championship    Hillsboro, OR
•First place, Advanced 175lb. division.  Submitted 2 out of 3 opponents, via Head & Arm Guillotine and Brabo choke; overall season champion

May, 2006              SBG Submission Wrestling League Event          Hillsboro, OR
•   First place, Advanced 175lb. division.  Submitted both opponents, via Brabo choke and straight armlock respectively.

March, 2006              SBG Submission Wrestling League Event       Hillsboro, OR
•   First place, Advanced 175lb.  division.  Submitted all three opponents, via triangle choke, fig. 4 toe-hold, and drop guillotine respectively.

Spring 2005              Capital Grappling Classic                             Woodbridge VA
 - Bronze Medalist, Men’s Purple Belt Middleweight Division

Grappler’s Quest/Copa Atlantica Southeast
Mechanicsville, VA                                                                             July, 2004   
•   Pro No-Gi Lightweight Division Competitor
•   2nd Place, Men’s Purple Belt Medium Heavyweight Division

Ohio Pro/Am                                         
  Dayton, OH                                                                                    June, 2004                       
•   Pro No-Gi Lightweight Division Competitor

Pittsburgh Kumite Classic   
Pittsburgh, PA                                                                                  May, 2004
•   2nd place, No-gi Middleweight, Advanced Division
•   2nd place, Blue Belt Middleweight

NAGA World Championships
Bayone, NJ                                                                                    March, 2004
•   1st place, No-gi Middleweight, Intermediate Division
•   3 out of 4 victories by submission


1998-2003 - Multiple Second and Third Place finishes at various Grappler's Quest and Naga events on the East Coast.

U.S.  A.A.U Sombo Nationals
  American University, Washington D.C                                       Spring, 1997
Bronze Medalist, Combat Sombo, Light Heavyweight


32 isn't old, but man, my body feels old these days.   I hope I am still training and competing at 47!

[Howling Dog]

Ok, a little more than what I was looking for, but its all good. Sorry for not listing all my competions.

What I was actually looking for was where your balance was between your BJJ which is obviously your main game, and say your stand up muay thai, judo ect......anyway its all good.

With my refrence to Chuck Lidell, that was in response to this Quote:

[If you are saying that someone coming from an extensive wrestling background only needs a small amount of submission training to be successful at the highest levels of MMA, I respectfully disagree.  I think that about sums it up./quote]

He may be a purple belt in BJJ but hes predominatly a stand up fighter whos made his bones on that, and done very well with it.......might I also add to the list Rampage Jackson.......I have never seen him submit anyone, but I do recall a Pride highlight reel, where he power bombs(massivly) someone who was trying to arm bar him......anyway hes done quite well, without the submissions......even though you may assert he trains them or needs them,.....they again are not a major part of his game.......and he is... Uh....UFC light heavy weight champ.

As for Babaloo...If you want to rank him as a second class citizen in your BJJ club(thats how I interpet what your saying about him) thats cool....all I know is hes known to be a Black belt.

Anyway.......Submissions and guard passes are cool and I agree needed to be a well rounded Cage fighter. I still think wreslters can add this to their wrestling package and do quite well.

I do however suggest that they are not all inclusive and that to be well rounded as a Cage fighter you have to have all attributes.  (This is what I have been saying all along) Not just live on BJJ

If your honest, about the Penn state champ you got traiining in your gym. You would admit hes way out of your league.
And he  can probalbly maul most guys in your BJJ School that are his weight and probably much larger.
To say other wise......I simply refuse to believe.
Not saying at all, that you can't teach him something.
his ground game is obviously already world class.
                                                                  TG

[Jeff Rockwell]

Hopefully I was able to give a feel for the balance of my training.  I think our discussion on the necessity of training both wrestling and BJJ to be successful at the highest levels of modern MMA has pretty much played itself out, and hopefully we're both the wiser for it.

"If your honest, about the Penn state champ you got traiining in your gym. You would admit hes way out of your league.
And he  can probalbly maul most guys in your BJJ School that are his weight and probably much larger.
To say other wise......I simply refuse to believe.
Not saying at all, that you can't teach him something.
his ground game is obviously already world class."

Why would I be anything other than honest?  He could indeed maul everyone in my school...but he chooses not to.  He doesn't want to show off his wrestling pinning combinations...he wants to learn BJJ.  Unlike most of the wrestlers who walk through my door and want to train "ultimate fighting", he is extremely relaxed, concerned about learning proper technique, and adjusts his level of intensity according to the person he is working with and the goal of the session.  All that said, he is an insane freak of nature.  His hands are so big  and fingers so long that they wrap around my wrist twice.  He has incredible strength and amazing flexibility.  He learns everything VERY quickly, and makes up new stuff all the time.  He made up a kneebar from half-guard bottom last week that no one ever showed him, he just saw it in his mind and thought it would work.  His positional control and transitions are fantastic, and he is taking to the submission game like lighting - I have a feeling that submissions will be a big part of his MMA game.  But probably from the top or from his opponent's back for a while, of course.

He is obviously way out of my league in many aspects of grappling.  My goal is to make him way out of my league in all aspects of grappling, and help him achieve the goals he has set.  The sky is definitely the limit for him.

Best,

Jeff

[Howling Dog]

Fair enough. This thing went way, way farther than I intended anyway.
My suggestion of learning wrestling as a way to make BJJ look like kiddie stuff was orginally intended to be a light hearted jab at BJJ. (Look back at my first couple of posts I state that)

I should have known all the BJJ guys would get up tight about it.

However one last jab as I conclude here

He learns everything VERY quickly, and makes up new stuff all the time.  He made up a kneebar from half-guard bottom last week that no one ever showed him, he just saw it in his mind and thought it would work.

Kinda makes my point that BJJ Is not rocket science.
I'am out......
                                                TG

[Jeff Rockwell]

Yes, neither BJJ nor wrestling are Rocket Science. 

[Jonobos]

Hi everyone!

Peregrine, I think Sakuraba was a Japanese pro wrestler before becoming involved in MMA... make of that what you will, but he turned out to be pretty bad ass!

As for the wrestling/bjj discussion going on, I have a couple thoughts. I train bjj under Jeff Rockwell and can honestly say that his class has added miles to my stick grappling game. Many of the other people in the kali class (I train under Dog Ryan Gruhn by the way) don't train grappling on the side, and if I go full on it feels like I am cheating sometimes. Mostly I tone things down and try and let them work. I try and give them helpful hints, and break things down as simply as possible so they can progress and learn too. If they get better at stick grappling then I have to get better at stick grappling right? I just wish some of the wrestlers in bjj understood this. With them it is win win win all the time. Some of them do get it, and they have been very helpful. They have solved some problems I was having with certain positions and given me more options. As for the ones that don't get it... i just tap early, and let them have their win from a sloppy choke that cranks my neck. They are only hurting their own training.

I would like to hear how people have applied the various grappling arts inside of the contexts of stick grappling, but this is perhaps the subject of a new thread.

[Maxx]

Hi everyone!

Peregrine, I think Sakuraba was a Japanese pro wrestler before becoming involved in MMA... make of that what you will, but he turned out to be pretty bad ass!

As for the wrestling/bjj discussion going on, I have a couple thoughts. I train bjj under Jeff Rockwell and can honestly say that his class has added miles to my stick grappling game. Many of the other people in the kali class (I train under Dog Ryan Gruhn by the way) don't train grappling on the side, and if I go full on it feels like I am cheating sometimes. Mostly I tone things down and try and let them work. I try and give them helpful hints, and break things down as simply as possible so they can progress and learn too. If they get better at stick grappling then I have to get better at stick grappling right? I just wish some of the wrestlers in bjj understood this. With them it is win win win all the time. Some of them do get it, and they have been very helpful. They have solved some problems I was having with certain positions and given me more options. As for the ones that don't get it... i just tap early, and let them have their win from a sloppy choke that cranks my neck. They are only hurting their own training.

I would like to hear how people have applied the various grappling arts inside of the contexts of stick grappling, but this is perhaps the subject of a new thread.

To answer that question for myself. I added BJJ (NO GI) grappling to my stick fighting but I don't use anything that would train me to put someone in a position to bite me. I also don't jump up and wrap my legs around the person. Thats a GREAT way to have someone smash you into the pavement.

My friends and I train in it for where it is gonna go down and that on the pavement. So when we grappling we do it on Pavement and let me tell you...there are only a few things that you can really pull off on the street grappling wise that will allow you to do what you need to do and hopefully not get kicked in the head by the persons friend while you are rolling around on the ground.

But back on point...BJJ and Good Old Fashion American street grappling goes into my Kali.