Knife for Self Defense

[David]

I've just written a post on my blog regarding the use of a knife for self defense in response to a thread on FMATalk, and my preference for blunt weapons instead.  Since you guys are very realistic minded I'd like to get your perspective.  Rather than re-write the reasons, the post is here: Knife for Self Defense

My preference, as mentioned, is an expandable baton.  Do any of you carry unconventional self defense weapons that can function as a stick where expandable batons are illegal?  I've noticed the self defense umbrella on the DB site.  Have any of you practiced with that?  I'm pretty sure carrying a knife or an expandable baton is illegal in CA.

David

[Maxx]

David,
 You live in Ca? I live in CA and carrying a knife in CA is not illegal in CA but carrying a expandable baton is.

For a first line of defence I use my hands and claws, Second line is running my ass off and the third is a Emerson Karambit and that's only if the other person has a weapon or is going to kill me...

[David]

Max,

No, I don't live in CA.  I'm from New Orleans but am a bit of nomad recently. 

So what kind of weapon would you use your karambit against?  My feeling is that vs. a gun at close range it would be better to have both hands free.  This may sound crazy, but even against a knife I generally prefer empty hands over knife.  I've trained a good bit of Pekiti, but I feel that in knife vs. knife you lose the total control you have with empty hand vs. knife.  Sure, you can do more damage with a knife, but you may sustain as much yourself.  And, vs. a stick...a knife will only help once I'm in...and at that point I don't need one. 

I can see that you/I/anyone could finish the job quicker in knife vs. knife compared to knife vs. empty hand.  If honestly faced with a knife wielding attacker I may actually like to have a knife.  BUT, it would be close.  I don't want to go anything against knife of course.  Am I making any sense here?

Edited: I just noticed the thread on the Tokyo knife attack but didn't see it discussed anywhere else.  Regarding Crafty's statement about the lack of armed resistance...I would change "armed" to "prepared".  You don't need to be armed to stop someone like this.  Going along with my original point in this discussion, would it be easier to grab the "Tokyo knifer's" face from behind and quickly break his neck, or slash his throat.  Again, my feeling is that if you can get behind him you can kill him faster by simply breaking his neck.  If you approach him from the front...without full control of his weapon arm (maybe a two-on-one via the Dog Catcher)...my feeling is that you may take some cuts while delivering your own. 

David

[michael]

There are some undeniable advantages of an expandable baton/stick over a blade, namely one of distance. It will all come down to the skill levels of the opponents and if the knifer can close to lethal range without getting beat into submission. With a skilled knife guy like Tom Sotis of AMOK or others who train extensively in the blade, unarmed technques stand almost no chance of working. I say almost because nothing is 100%, but with a high skill level in the blade, unarmed options are almost certainly doomed to failue. I would say to test this out in FOF and see for yourself, but that is what I have found. A skilled knifer is a very scary thing, and up close has the advantage even over the gun. I carry all three, but we must know the limitations and advantages of each.

[maija]

David, you said: 'This may sound crazy, but even against a knife I generally prefer empty hands over knife'.
.....You are indeed crazy .
For me, confronted with a knife, running away - excellent, own knife - good, a longer knife - better, 2 weapons - wonderful, any longer weapon, impact or otherwise - great, but give me a chair or a handful of rocks or something rather than CHOOSE to be empty handed against a blade.
Question: Why do you need your hands to be empty?
May I also recommend the "Karambit vs Straight Blades" thread: http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1619.0

[David]

The point I was originally trying to discuss was whether other weapons were "better" than a knife for self defense...not that a knife is not effective in any case.

Maija: I completely agree that when confronted with a knife, running, a much longer knife (machete), a longer impact weapon, or even a handful of rocks would be better than empty hands.  All of these options give you distance.  That's what I want against the knife.

And, as I said previously, in all honesty I probably would rather go knife vs. knife than empty hand vs. knife.  The problem I have with knife vs. knife is that I'll likely need to get in close to avoid a cutting contest.  In close range against a knife, if I'm using a knife myself, I won't have quite as much ability to control the opponent's weapon bearing limb as I would had I no knife.  Without complete control of the opponent's weapon/limb at close range, I figure it's a bit more likely you'll get cut up.  (I'm not saying complete control would be easy with no weapon...just that it's even harder with one.)  Do you see what I'm saying?  I will concede that against a very skillful opponent with a knife, it would be better to also have a knife.

Michael: In some ways I agree that a knife is more dangerous than a gun at close range.  The problem I have with a knife though is that it often doesn't kill/knock out instantly.  Against a gun I'd rather have both hands free for a quick strip if the situation permits, or a strong control combined with techniques that I feel have a greater chance of making the attacker unconscious, quicker.  I feel that accessing a knife takes time and focus that would be better spent dealing immediately with the threat. 

[Jonobos]

Fighting without a weapon against an armed opponent is movie stuff. Do it if you have to, but pick up or pull anything rather than pretend you are in an action flick 

I think the range advantage of the stick is way exaggerated. When we train knife vs stick the knife usually just crashes and the fight is over fast. After seeing it in action, and feeling it in a live way, my logic circuits are telling me that this is what would probably happen in reality as well    Besides which, extendable batons are illegal in most states and knives are not...

Jon

[Maxx]

No Martial art is as old as the good old fashion art of running your ass off. Even with my Kali ninja powers, If confronted with a knife and I was by myself..I would make for the hills But you asked what I would use my Karambit against?  Anything that I felt was going to kill me...If they are swinging hands, then I am always up for a game of hands..but not with a knife.

[David]

Jonobos, Max,

I agree with you guys.  Avoiding trouble is by far the best bet. 

I do think though that stick/baton vs. knife is safer than knife vs. knife.  With evasive triangular footwork and a metal baton you can do some serious damage.  It's one thing to train padded stick or rattan stick with gear vs. a fake knife...but I doubt there are too many people who would want to go against a metal baton with a knife.  I don't want to face a knife with anything, but my question was, is a knife the best self defense weapon?  You can't justifiably use it against an empty hand attacker, you can't injure to degree, and it's debatable as to weather it would be better than empty hands vs. a gun threat, etc. 

Additionally, while I do think the odds are bad, I feel that against a large number of people techniques such as the Dog Catcher can work with a good degree of success.  Again...not saying I'd like to try it for real...but I've had a great deal of success in training similar methods.

David

[maija]

David,
You said: ."..but I doubt there are too many people who would want to go against a metal baton with a knife".
I wouldn't be too sure.
Having the advantage of length, even a 4" blade vs a 2"blade, can be an advantage, but honestly the person with the better ability and will to close gains a much bigger advantage, regardless of weapon.
Also, controlling the weapon hand is not always that easy to pull off and in any case, if the attacker has a blade, the chances of getting cut are high whichever way you look at it.

It seems the scenario you are thinking about is one where the weapon is drawn and seen from a distance, so again why not more thought about the psychological effect of the blade as defense? The assumption that the blade is only good for lethal force IMHO is extremely limiting. Obviously this is one option, but there is so much more to it.
If your attacker is gracious enough to threaten you from a distance with a blade (as opposed to you getting shanked without seeing it coming), what is the motivation? Robbery? Escalation of a fight? What? And how would the dynamic change if you pulled a weapon of your own? A baton? A knife? You said that what you are after when confronted by a knife is distance. Getting them to back off would also be one way to achieve that, and I think that a blade can have a wonderful focusing effect.

Also, if someone twice my size, crazy/drunk/high came at me threatening harm verbally or otherwise, empty hands or no, I think I would be happy to have a blade and believe myself justified in drawing it.

@Maxx - Apparently the Vikings had a saying- "Don't run, you'll only die tired!!" This may be bull, but it made me laugh!

[califkali]

Just for fun, check out  donnie yen vs. jing wu on you tube. It's expandable baton against knife.

[David]

Maija,

Text is often a bad medium for discussion...  I agree with everything you wrote.  Most certainly "the person with the better ability and will to close gains a much bigger advantage, regardless of weapon", and of course I agree with you that controlling the weapon hand is not easy to pull off. 

I'm not actually thinking of any scenario.  I'm asking in general what you and anyone else might think of other weapons being better suited for self defense, based on what I see as 4 primary downsides of the knife relative to other possibilities:

1.  Justifiable use
2.  RELATIVE lack of ability to injure to degree
3.  Range requirements
4.  Lack of impact/feeling

Just a couple of clarifications...  I do not think the blade is ONLY good for lethal use.  However, a blunt object is easier to use to injure to degree.  There is less chance of accidental death with a blunt object than with a blade. 

A blade CAN have psychological effects, but so too can alternative weapons.  Again, I'm not thinking of any particular scenario.  What I am thinking about and looking to discuss if anyone would like to, is if other weapons MAY be better suited for self defense.

Regarding someone who is crazy/drunk/high coming at you: I don't know you  , what you look like, your size, etc.  Having lived in New Orleans most of my life, in the French Quarter for years, I've seen my share of crazy/drunk/high people.  Many of them are only a threat when "drugged", and not people I would want to kill on purpose or by accident if attacked by them.  I feel comfortable just going on defense, clinching and choking, striking, even beating with a baton.  I would NOT feel comfortable cutting one of these people up with a knife.  (Not saying you would either!) 

I know there's a lot of talk around here and/or on related forums about terrorists, bad guys, etc.  But honestly, how many of us are EVER going to run into a terrorist attack in progress?  How many of us are ever going to have to pull any weapon to defend ourselves if we're not, as Crafty said "in stupid places with stupid people doing stupid things"?  I've seen my share of crime.  I've had multiple shootings directly in front of my previous houses, been in a small bank with four guys who came in and shot at a teller, stopped a number of violent encounters I've happened upon, etc., etc.  However, I've never been in a situation where the use of a knife was justified or practical.  In all the situations I've been in I've never pulled a weapon, and doing so would have likely only made the situation worse.  Maybe some of you have other experiences.  Based on my experiences though, I see other weapons as being better suited for self-defense.  In situations where I'd need a truly deadly weapon, I'd prefer a gun.  In situations where I don't need deadly force I'd prefer a blunt object.  I see the knife as a great offensive weapon, but not the best defensive weapon, given the alternatives.

David

[maija]

David,
Thanks for the reply - some good points there.
Did you get a chance to read the 'karambit vs straight blade' thread? Some of the points you bring up appear there also.
I am about 5'6" and 145lb so most of my training partners are taller and out weigh me, and I have noticed that nothing levels the playing field like a blade. With anything else, the temptation to crash in is too large and then I am at a marked disadvantage for striking, clinching and choking. Even a baston is not perceived as a big threat, but a blade can cause enough hesitation to buy enough time to do what I need to do to get away/ dissuade the attack etc.
However, I would say that I really like the cane for self defense when all is said and done, and as I age intend to focus on this more!!
I also believe that accuracy and targeting are key for both blade and stick usage. That "lack of impact/feeling" you talk about is a problem with impact weapons also. A training partner of mine who is a cop talked of trying to subdue a 300lb crazy guy wielding a large knife. No one could close on him and nothing they threw at him, taser etc had any effect until some one aimed at his foot. He was wearing sandals and the hit he took to his toe was what finally brought him down!
My life is really not that dangerous so I don't walk around expecting 'evil doers' around every corner, however I do know that these things happen in any large, urban center so it is something I keep in the back of my mind. As to "cutting one of these people", well it's not top of my list of things to do, but for the reasons I have said, I would draw if I needed to. Perhaps that would be enough, perhaps not, but I would hope that enough of my training would come out that no body would end up dead.
I know my teacher avoided fighting on more than one occasion by flashing a blade, smiling, and saying something to the effect  "where have you been all my life.."!! (Breaking the OODA loop?)

The Donnie yen clip is in the "movie fights" thread. Very enjoyable.I particularly like the poke to the armpit (advantage of a longer weapon).

[David]

Maija,

I just checked out the "karambit vs. straight blade" thread.  Yep.  Good points there also.

I understand what you're saying about a blade leveling the playing field more so than many other weapons.  I would be more a bit more likely to try to enter on a stick versus a blade myself.  Certainly, knife does have some advantages over stick.  For me, at this point in my life, I'd prefer an expandable baton. 

Years ago I carried a gun (with a CC permit), an expandable baton, and a knife.  I carried all that for at least two years, and fortunately I never had to use any of it.  My wife and I like to travel, and when we'd go on vacation, generally for a month at a time, I didn't carry any weapons.  The places we went were far safer than where we lived.  I felt so much freer when I didn't carry a weapon.  I'd get home, not carry for a few days, see some funky characters or hear about another robbery/shooting, and start carrying again.  After hurricane Katrina there were nearly no people in the city for a good 6 months.  During that time I didn't carry any weapons.  It was incredibly safe in the city at that time.  I got used to it and liked it very much.  A year or so after the storm the crime in our neighborhood increased astronomically, so we left the country.

Although I love martial arts, and I love training both stick and knife (Pekiti is probably what I like training most), I really like sitting down and enjoying a piece of cake and a cup of coffee without thinking about where my gun is.  I'm not turned off by blood or anything like that, but I don't like the idea of cutting someone open.  Sure, I'd prefer that to someone cutting me open!  Anyway, I like the FEELING of knowing I can crack someone in the shin, knee, or hand with a stick more than cutting them. 

So aside from my own feeling that I can maintain distance and get less involved (potentially) with a baton or even pepper spray, I like the feeling of not carrying a knife.  If I had no choice but to go somewhere that was very dangerous, I'd carry whatever I needed to.  I'm not opposed to that in any way.  But for everyday life I just don't feel like I need to pretend I'm some kind of super hero...I carry nothing with rare exceptions.  I guess it all boils down to your environment, your skills, and what you feel comfortable with.  Anyway, good discussion.

I also just checked out the Donnie yen clip...Youtube is great!

David

[Jonobos]

Hmmm... Pepper spray them and run? I like the sound of that! I am willing to bet that I can run faster then almost anyone that has just been pepper sprayed!

[maija]

David,
Your words about traveling being safer than home brought back memories of the trips I've taken around the world, mostly South and South East Asia. People always ask "where's the most dangerous place you've been?", so I'd tell that that I LIVE in the most dangerous place I've ever been (Oakland, CA)!
Anyway, you probably read in the other thread that I tend to always have a blade on me because I work in the trades, so it's already there for self defense if need be. Otherwise, would I carry one? Not sure, I guess it would depend on the situation.
I have never had to worry about where my gun is over coffee and cake so I have no comment there, but I think it is an interesting balance you talk about between expecting danger at any moment, and not thinking it will ever happen .... how do you live a relaxed and happy life and at the same time keep prepared for the unexpected?

[Tony Torre]

Majia,

I disagree.  My home town is the most dangerous place in the U.S.  Miami, Florida   As far as establishing a balance between being prepared and being relaxed and happy is pretty easy.  Your preparedness efforts are like insurance you may never need.  Habits that are there just in case.  Paranoia is what makes you tense and unhappy.  Also excuse my ignorance but what are the trades?

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com

P.S.  It's not paranoia if they're really after you.

[maija]

Tony,
Oakland is just the most dangerous place I've personally spent any length of time in. I'm sure Miami wins, but having never been there it doesn't count for me!
As far as paranoia goes, sounds like you are pretty well balanced, but I have come across plenty of people in and out of the martial arts that seem to have trouble with this.
The 'trades' = construction, I'm a painter.

PS: Can you tell if they're really after me........?

[Crafty_Dog]

Maija and/or anyone:

"I think it is an interesting balance you talk about between expecting danger at any moment, and not thinking it will ever happen .... how do you live a relaxed and happy life and at the same time keep prepared for the unexpected?"

This is a profound question; IMHO worthy of its own thread.  If anyone feels like kicking it off please have at it.

TAC,
CD

[califkali]

Without awarness your local 7-11 could be the most dangerous place you ever visit. I lived in Cebu City Philippines,spent time in Miami,but Oakland and Manila at night -pass. 

[David]

Maija: Our favorite place to travel is S.E. Asia, and it was there that I was speaking of.  My wife has a photography website that currently has pictures from trips to Vietnam and Laos.  We're going to add pictures from Malaysia in the next couple of days.  You might enjoy them.

One of my favorite photos is of Ama Kong.  Hopefully he's still around...a famous tribal leader known for catching elephants to be domesticated near the border with Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia.

Crafty: I'll take a stab at the "relaxed vs. prepared" thread.

David

[Tony Torre]

Maija,

Most major metropolitan areas have similar levels of danger.  I think staying out of danger is largely a matter of knowing the "rules" and being aware.  With practice and experience I believe one can stay pretty relaxed because of their confidence in their ability to see trouble brewing.  It really is kind of rare to find truly spontaneous crime.  I know what you mean about out of balance people I've met many of them.  Funny thing is that these people because of their paranoia tend to attract the very things they claim to be trying to avoid.  I guess all that psychic energy being spent on day dreaming about boogy men blinds them to the real ones.  Another thing is that usually their body language screams out victim!

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com

P.S.  Make 3 right turns

[maija]

Tony
...3 right turns ....LOL!!'
I think you're right about the connection between practice and experience, and being relaxed. I hope you don't mind but I thought I'd transfer your ideas to the other thread: 'Relaxed vs Prepared'

[Tony Torre]

Thank you Maija.

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com

[maija]

The name of the thread is now  "Being Prepared without Being Paranoid" - I think that's more accurate (thanks David).

[Crafty_Dog]

Which is why I (not David) inserted the change.

[David]

I agree...it's a much better title Crafty came up with...

[maija]

Aaah ....very good. Thanks Guro Crafty.

[Tony Torre]

Okay, So lets re-work this thread into a how, when and why we might use a knife for practical self defense.  I carry two knives usually.  A spyderco endura for general use and a cold steel vaquero grande for more "serious" applications.  I find them light and easy to carry.  They've become part of my daily attire.

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com

[Crafty_Dog]

Apparently wee-hours street confrontation focused on who had bigger knife
By Kate Paul, KTVZ.COM

A would-be victim of a knife-wielding burglar on a southeast Bend street early Saturday morning turned the tables - pulling out a larger knife of his own - and the assailant then ran away, the teen told police.

Officers responded around 2:30 a.m. to the area of Southeast Third Street and Vine Lane (north of Wilson) on the report of an attempted armed robbery with a knife, said Sgt. Tom Pine.

The victim, Jeremy Meade, 18, of Bend, reported being confronted by an unknown suspect with a knife who demanded his wallet, Pine said.
But the teen refused to comply with demands.

Sgt. Andy Homan told NewsChanel 21, "When the subject confronted him, he had what (Meade) called a smaller knife. And apparently, our victim was carrying a larger knife, and he brandished it back - I'm guessing in (self) defense - and apparently that thwarted the robbery."
"And the suspect thought twice and ran off," Homan said.

The suspect ran north toward the Third Street underpass, and Meade called 911, Homan said, but police were unable to locate the suspect. Pine said he faces likely charges of first-degree attempted robbery, unlawful use of a weapon and menacing.

The suspect description is limited - a white male adult, about 6 feet tall, with medium build. Anyone with information that could help in the case was asked to contact police.

[G M]

Depending on where you live, knives may be your only option, but from the criminal/civil perspective they are far from optimal.

The typical prosecutor and likely juror pool tend to have a bias against knives. Look at tv/movies, unless it's a medival/fantasy movie, the bad guys are the ones that use blades. John Wayne and Dirty Harry shoot and punch the bad guys, not much use of blades.

Ideally, cutting down a bad guy/s is the same as shooting them in legitimate self defense, but in reality, appearances can make all the difference.

Just like in some jurisdictions, a scary looking "assault rifle"may be legal, but will get you indicted while the identical shooting with a blued gun with engraving and polished wood stocks would pass without indictment.

Do I carry knives? Yes. Might I use them for defensive purposes? Yes. Do I use them to open boxes, or potentially cut seatbelts to free an accident victim or other uses? Yes.

Do NOT have any artwork or engraving, clothing or tats that suggests you are looking forward to using the knife as a weapon.

Have other items for lesser levels of force. I'm a big fan of O.C. spray. High intensity "tactical" flashlights are very useful. Putting 150+ lumens into the eyes of potential assailants can end the problem before it even starts.

Your first option is to avoid trouble. If that fails, break contact and evade/un-ass the area in a flash of bright light and/or cloud of O.C.

Only in the same circumstances that you'd shoot someone should you use other items/techniques that have a high degree of causing serious bodily injury and/or death.

[Maxx]

I would like to share this with everyone here..This may or may not be the place to post about this but the topic is knives and knives lead to getting stabbed or slashed..

I am recovering right now from a fight I got into last wensday. I posted about this on the PSDTC forums and I will post about it here\

The fight was with some dick and that's the name we will give him.

This guy was bullying everyone at the club I was at, Pushing smaller guys, Pushing girls and just in General being a man bitch.

So I was standing next to him and not by choice and he started staring at me with the drunk gaze..I looked over and him and smiled..He said "What"? I was like oh boy here we go...I said Hi back..He said What the fuck did you say bitch..And again I thought..Here we friggen go..I know this routine..I then responded with nevermind..I mistaked you for the wrong person..

Well in his drunk stooper he jumped up and was like fuck you bitch..And pushed me rather hard into the wall..So I decked him in the face and somehow managed to throw him into the DJ speaker..It was unforturn that I just used all back muscle because I pulled my muscle in my back..

We began the man dance of throwing punches..I tried to take him down and I succeed not because of skill but more just aggression and the fact I think he tripped over Speaker Cables.

I noticed I was really starting to hammer him on the ground ( YAY FOR GROUND FIGHTING TRAINING) But I noitced that again skill was not keeping him down but the fact I was stronger and just shoving him back into the ground..I moved in position to finish him off not kill and I was pulled off by the crowd..

I was standing in the side and I now had a Swollen eye, Ripped T shirt, Knuckels were scuff and my friend says..You are bleeding here..Guess what? I didnt even notice that the guy had stabbed me 4 times in my leg when I was preparring to BJJ him..The guards found the item he was stabbing me with..He was stabbing me in the leg with a ball point pen while I was grappling and I didnt even notice it..After I noticed it, it hurt like a bitch.

I thought I would share this for not only will people use knifes in self defence but any object...

Now I am done healing from my wounds..My Back and 4 holes in my leg...

[maija]

Yikes Maxx ...nasty story. Glad you are OK.
I think I posted a while back ... maybe .... of a similar thing that happened to a friend of some contractors I was working with. As they told it, it went to the ground with their friend on top, but dude on the pavement reached inside his jacket or something, pulled a blade, and stabbed him. Just like you, the guy never felt it till after.

[Maxx]

@ Maijav - I am fine just still healing. Was able to start lifting weights again last night and today I am back in the gym..Still letting the leg heal from the holes...Keeping them clean and what not.

[G M]

Maxx,

You should have called the police to deal with the "Dick". Lucky you are still alive, and recovering.

This is why my advise is: Your first option is to avoid trouble. If that fails, break contact and evade/un-ass the area in a flash of bright light and/or cloud of O.C

[Maxx]

Maxx,

You should have called the police to deal with the "Dick". Lucky you are still alive, and recovering.

This is why my advise is: Your first option is to avoid trouble. If that fails, break contact and evade/un-ass the area in a flash of bright light and/or cloud of O.C

Actually there was zero time from when we exchanged looks and he rose up and pushed slammed me against the wall..And at that point from where I was at, there was no way he was not going to wail on me and there was no way to leave...I couldnt leave my girlfriend there while I ran away lol...

[G M]

Maybe it wasn't possible to bail. Fine. I'm glad he didn't sever your femoral or a friend of his didn't put a cap in your dome.

The world we live in today, you can never count on a "man to man" fight.

[Maxx]

Like Dog Rene said...Thank the sheep gods he didnt jack me in the neck with the pen.



I have to give props to this guy though..He knew he was introuble when we were on the ground..But I thought I had my eyes on him..I didnt even see his hand go into his pants..

I have a pic of two of the wounds in my leg and what the sheets looked like when I scrapped my bandaids of in the night. Ouch! lol

[prentice crawford]

Woof Maxx,
 Thanks for sharing, I'm sorry you had to go through that but like you said things could have been worse. Now that you've had this experience, how will you react if something like this happens again? Will you be closing in, taking things to the ground again, are you still confident in going to the ground no matter what? Will you start training differently? Have you trained/sparred with weapons on the ground before this? Do you consider your grappling skills to be just as strong and safe for you in the street as in the ring or has this changed your mind about how effective grappling is when there's no rules and anything can happen? Even if he didn't stab you, what if the guy had a friend that started stabbing you while you were busy with him on the ground, instead of the people that pulled you off him?
                                             P.C.

[Maxx]

Woof Max,
 Thanks for sharing, I'm sorry you had to go through that but like you said things could have been worse. Now that you've had this experience, how will you react if something like this happens again? Will you be closing in, taking things to the ground again, are you still confident in going to the ground no matter what? Will you start training differently? Have you trained/sparred with weapons on the ground before this? Do you consider your grappling skills to be just as strong and safe for you in the street as in the ring or has this changed your mind about how effective grappling is when there's no rules and anything can happen? Even if he don't stab you, what if the guy had a friend that started stabbing you while you were busy with him on the ground, instead of the people that pulled you off him?
                                             P.C.

@ Prenticed crawford - I am going to do my best to try and cover everything here, How I feel and my training.

Experience- To start when I was younger ..Way younger I happend to be apart of a fight in a Arcade that went horrible..I was witness to someone being stabbed many many times. Since that day I have always tried to train for something to what I had seen but I found that you really can't train for the chaos. I train all the time, I do what I can to try and put my group in all types of situations...We STAY clear of dueling training as we believe that duels are few and far between..So we try and train with sharks in placed on ourselves. When we start to fight, Grapple or anything of that sort and start to lose the person losing will pull the knife and begin a whole new line of attack..Most of the time in this training I don't even know I have been jacked till about the third pump. JUST like this experience..I didn't even know that I had be jabbed 4 times till someone pointed it out..Shit, I probably would have went to my car, Drove home and got into the shower and then seen it.    Anyways, I don't know what I could have done different but I noticed that there was no room for MMA type of fighting..I actually was figuring that out while I was exchanging blows...That type of fighting gives you the privilege of having a nice area of space, A Ref and lots of rules..I found myself just using good old fashion pinning the person against the speaker and throwing upper cuts, Over hands and knees...I was surprised allot of Tech went out the window..Esp. when I hurt my back by just throwing him...

Grappling on the street I feel at this time is certainly not how the Gracie ultimate fighting 36 move disk can help you...The guy reached up while I was doing my business and rend-ed my eye..IE reached up and tried to gouge my eye but instead scraped it all to hell to where it was bleeding and was infected. 

You mention someone stabbing me in the back instead of being pulled off..Again, I don't believe any training in the world can prepare you for the actual chaos that can happen..I am not saying that training is worthless...I do believe that training has to be as realistic as legally possible.

My training has changed more and more over the the last couple years...Most of the time we are street boxing/Dirty boxing, Alot of rushing and pinning, Take downs with quick ground and pounds, Eye pokes, Bites, Getting off your back on the ground and back to your feet and we lift alot of weights..Strenght and power may not be everything but it helps in a pinch when someone is bigger then you and you have to move them and you dont have time for tech. We train with knives as well but never any dueling type..Our knife training is a Pinch of Kali and a Pinch of Prison. We do practice MMA also.

Whats funny is durring this whole battle.I had a Shiv-works Pkal folder in my front pants pocket...You only need one hand to pop this from pocket to action and I never even thought once of pulling it..

[Kaju Dog]

Whats funny is durring this whole battle.I had a Shiv-works Pkal folder in my front pants pocket...You only need one hand to pop this from pocket to action and I never even thought once of pulling it..

Woof Maxx,

What you said above, I have found to be one of my greatest challenges thus far.  In about 3-4 Gathering fights past, I have carried a training folder in my pants pocket where I usually keep my primary knife when going anywhere.  In all of the past fights that I had this on me, I NEVER remembered that I had it or even to pull it out until the fight was over.  With one exception, my cane fight with Dog Rene.  (It was nice that he gave me ample time to get it out too)   

This is a big thing for me to accomplish in the adrenal state.


Just glad your alive and not too damaged.

KD

[Maxx]

That's what I am saying, I knew I had it there before I went out..I knew it was there after the fight..I totally had no clue it was there durring it.

Just drilling under hardcore conditions can get the mind and body to react.

After talking to a few people who knew this bozo...It seems like a Pen is his MO. Most clubs search for a knife but a pen is just a item to get girls numbers and is sliped though rather easy and after just watching Casino this morning, I was watching the Pen stabbing scene and felt the guys pain lol!

[David]

Thanks for posting about your experience Maxx.  It's very similar to what I've heard and experienced myself, and again one of the reasons I prefer impact weapons to a knife.  I know several people who have been stabbed, and none of them realized it until after the altercation was over.  I was also with a friend when he was shot through the hand.  We didn't even realize he had been shot until we ran a couple of blocks and stopped...at which point he passed out. 

Aside from a person likely not feeling pain during an altercation, your experience reemphasizes two training/fighting points for me:

1.  Focus on techniques that will disable due to physical factors (not pain)
2.  Use triangular footwork to stay standing, and get out fast

I love Pekiti/FMA training more than anything else, primarily due to the emphasis on triangular footwork and blades.  In boxing, it's fine to block a low blow with your arms (or elbow ideally).  It's no problem to move straight back with a cover, and then straight in with a return, etc.  If two fighters have machetes though, the dynamic drastically changes.  You're not going to be blocking a machete by covering your head with your arm, as you might deal with a hook.  Against a machete you better have damn good footwork.  You need to get the hell out of the way when an attack is coming in.  And if you're on the attack, you need to get in in such a way that you're certain the opponent is unable to continue, or you need to get in and get out, FAST.

I think this has real applications in self-defense, but less so in sport training.  In self defense you can use triangular footwork with a finger in the eye.  I've done this to others and had it done to me, and it works extraordinarily well.  You can't zone back and away on a forward/male triangle and hit the person in front of you with a hard punch.  Because you're moving away it's just not going to have enough power to do anything.  But you can certainly do the same evasive movement with a simultaneous eye jab.  You can use the eye jab equally well with a deep evasion on a reverse triangle, on the way to a fast exit.  This technique, the eye jab with evasive triangular footwork, follows BOTH of the principles above...disabling a person physically and using footwork to stay standing/get out. 

If there is no room to step OFF the X, then you might need to step INTO it.  I like what I call the "smack and hack" for this, stepping into the opponent via a forward/male triangle.  I believe Crafty calls this technique a "bracial stun".  I call that a "hack", and proceed it with what is basically a pak sao...smacking the opponent's arm on the entry making it nearly impossible to block.  If the hack doesn't drop the opponent you can immediately transition to a "head and arm control" via an underhook/kimura type position with a face push, or an underhook to a duck under and take the back.  I prefer the "head and arm control", because the opponent cannot reach you with his far hand, and you can repeatedly knee his face, puter kepala, etc., etc. 

Those are just two examples of combining techniques with footwork that do not rely on pain to disable the attacker, and getting out right away if possible.  I think your situation Maxx highlights the necessity of a couple of "default responses" that are HEAVILY ingrained, vs. 100 different options.  And, I think those default responses need to be based on the above two principles.

You said you had a folder at the time but didn't even realize it was there.  This most certainly highlights the reason everyone must train empty hands first.

[prentice crawford]

Woof Maxx,
 Thanks for your reply. I've had similar moments of reality to make me question the way I trained. I went from practicing Kata and point sparring to training reality based full contact MMA and streetfighting, plus stick, knife and firearms training. One of the things that I found to be of pivotal importance in a real fight, is if you can't see their hands then you need to be in control of their hands.
                                                                        P.C.
 
                                                     

[maija]

Interesting conversation, which made a few points come to mind-

I think Self Protection training is certainly a thing to itself, trained as both David and Maxx pointed out, though there are cross over points from more 'old fashioned' martial arts, and Filipino arts particularly.

David said:
"You said you had a folder at the time but didn't even realize it was there.  This most certainly highlights the reason everyone must train empty hands first."

This has also happened to me but the moment passed and the threat never turned into anything so in the end it didn't matter, until after when I thought to myself ...'but I had a penknife in my bag, that might have been useful ...'

Crafty posted a story about the psychological effect of a blade, where it perhaps has the most use. ("No, THIS is a knife" - Quote Crocodlie Dundee) because as has been discussed, you can't feel it which means it's possibly not the best way to stop an attack, unless you are willing to do so much damage it has a major effect.

OTOH, I do believe that TRAINING the blade can up your skills in many ways - i.e. you don't just train the blade to be able to use the blade, you train with it because of it's ability to improve you sense of range  and footwork, your timing, your hand eye co ordination, your accuracy and focus, and the ability to read intention and understand more about human psychology. It also makes you much more aware of what your opponent might try.
Obviously learning how to hit something very hard, empty handed, repeatedly, is a primary skill, but I'm a great advocate of blade training right alongside the empty hand, not something that is separate and comes later.
Also, IMHO you don't duel to ONLY learn how to duel, you do it for all the reasons I listed above. It's NOT the same as Self Protection training, and is no substitute, but it does up your game.

[Crafty_Dog]

Just a quick yip from Texas:

Very interesting conversation and thanks to Maxx for sharing.

Concerning not accessing his knife:  Why would he?  He was not aware that the man had accessed a weapon and was using it.

[Maxx]

I would like to point out a couple things for a second.

1) I would like to clear up "I had a folder and forgot it was there"

I hope some people don't think that if I had remembered it was there I would have pulled it. To me it was a fist fight and nothing more..So even if I would have remembered it was there I still would have never pulled it.

Now If I knew he was stabbing me with a Pen would I have pulled it?  Well, I don't know and probably not.

Man stabs mma manic to save his life from being chocked out and mma crazy pulls folder made by a company called SHIV WORKS..A knife that can be opened one handed and has a nick name for being called Fist full of fight.

This knife wielding mad man also practices a knife wielding martial art knows as Kali

I am sure the prosecution would have a field day with that. Now if he stuck me in the neck and got on top and started jack hammering me then I would have pulled it..Getting stabbed in the leg with a Pen is not enough for for the police to let you go at least thats how I feel and I could be totally wrong.

Now I would like to ask..If you don't feel it when you get stabbed why is it that we or someone of us carry a knife?

This was a topic I asked in a Discussion called Straight blades vs Karambits..Wouldn't a Karambit do far more painful stoppage to someone?

Sorry if this seems to be all over the place..I am posting from my phone/

[David]

I hope some people don't think that if I had remembered it was there I would have pulled it.

That certainly wasn't what I was implying, or trying to imply!

Now I would like to ask..If you don't feel it when you get stabbed why is it that we or someone of us carry a knife?

This is actually the reason I started this thread in June of last year.  My reason #4 for not considering a knife a good SELF-DEFENSE weapon was "lack of impact/feeling".  I personally think a knife will do extreme damage, but with nearly no fight stopping affect...unless you stab your opponent in the eye, kill them, or sever some tendon/ligament that stops their ability to move a certain body part.  I'd much prefer a hard impact weapon that will break bone, but not necessarily kill or disfigure a person unintentionally.  I'd even prefer a very bright flashlight at night. 

Granted a light or impact weapon wouldn't be as useful on the ground...  But again in that situation, as with vs. a gun threat, I'd rather have both hands free.

Maxx, you were beating this guy from the mount, and he was still able to get out a pen and stab you in the leg.  Consider the reverse:  What if you (or any person) had been mounted by an attacker and were getting beaten (or much worse, stabbed!).  Would it be better to use BJJ skills to control your opponent's body/hands, or to pull a knife and start stabbing?  I submit that using empty hand skills would be far better from a self-defense perspective.

[grayson]

This is hilarious. Not because Maxx got stabbed, but because all this money is spent on vids, gear, special knives...seminars, $1000 training weekends,competitions...and YOU CAN"T USE IT.
It comes down to INTENT. The guy was intent on scrapping and he did. Had Maxx pulled his knife and stabbed him, probably killing him, the the guy who spent years learning how to defend himself now
gets to try it in prison. I can't tell you how much I hold back because of consequences. Prick judges, lawyers hell bent on putting anyone away, cops who don't care, civil suits from families who lost thugs
but felt it was wrongful....know what I mean here?

You walk out of your house with anything and they will bust you for it, check your history...you're f'd

But, the situation gets hyper-analyzed and we supposedly all learn something from it. "this is what I would've done..." and so forth. So it's all
just for information purposes only I guess.

[David]

I disagree with the majority of that last post...

This is hilarious. Not because Maxx got stabbed, but because all this money is spent on vids, gear, special knives...seminars, $1000 training weekends,competitions...and YOU CAN"T USE IT.

Maxx did use his training.  Without it, he might have ended up on the bottom getting stabbed in the neck.

Had Maxx pulled his knife and stabbed him, probably killing him, the the guy who spent years learning how to defend himself now
gets to try it in prison.

And?  He didn't, because he knows better.

But, the situation gets hyper-analyzed and we supposedly all learn something from it. "this is what I would've done..." and so forth. So it's all
just for information purposes only I guess.

I don't think ANYONE on this forum has said "this is what I would've done".  No one knows exactly what they would have done.  But situations like this can help people to see what they should be training, and they can certainly learn from it.  I posted two lessons that should be taken from this, IMHO:

1.  Focus on techniques that will disable due to physical factors (not pain)
2.  Use triangular footwork to stay standing, and get out fast

MANY people have used their training to defend themselves in a range of situations from less to far more severe.  Just because Maxx got stabbed doesn't mean his training failed, or that discussing it is "for information purposes only".