Knife for Self Defense

[maija]

Real situations give us all a better understanding of what to expect, and from Maxx's story and from the similar one I mentioned, it is not unusual for a weapon to be hidden and subsequently drawn by an attacker.
After that we are all hypothesizing as to what/when/if etc ....

I am in agreement with you David, that staying on your feet and creating enough time to get away, especially when a blade is in play is the best scenario, also that pain compliance is not to be relied upon.

I do think it is worth separating a couple ideas here though. I have been interacting with some guys in the UK who teach Self Protection specifically, and it has been pointed out that there is a different psychology going on in an attacker who is out to rob/mug/threaten you for money or use threat for rape, than there is in your common or garden fight kicking off. An attacker who wants something from you is not expecting to fight you ...they have picked you because they pretty much DON"T think you'll fight back.
One guy stepping to another, or acting like a drunk idiot is a very different scenario.

Pulling a weapon in the first scenario might have a dissuasive effect on the attacker, whereas there may not be time in the second, or it may not be a good idea ...or it may, if he's got friends ...or you have space ... or .... or .....

[prentice crawford]

Woof,
 Something else to consider is that when the guy pulled out the pen, he probably realized he was losing at that point on the ground and found stabbing was his only option.
                                      P.C.

[Kaju Dog]

Woof,
 Something else to consider is that when the guy pulled out the pen, he probably realized he was losing at that point on the ground and found stabbing was his only option.
                                      P.C.

Makes me wonder if the Pen is this guys MO, did he have it in his hand with intent, going into the altercation.   

KD

[prentice crawford]

Woof,
 Maxx said he was in a standup fist fight at first, then it went to the ground and then he was stabbed.
                                           P.C.

[Maxx]

@Kaju - Yes it was a total stand up fight at first. I am sure he would have stand me in the early stages. He started by pushing me like super man into a wall and I returned with a hit..

When it went to the ground I believe it was because he was a fighter who got drunk and wailed on smaller people and he was like a turtle on his back. I could see the fear on his face/Panic while I was hitting him..

I was wearing low top slip on black vans and my shoe came off during this whole deal.

He got me once below the knee on the side of my leg ( Thats the worse one) another one about 2 inches from that one, Another one in my calf and a Finally one below the ankle.

I wanted to share this story to inform other's that there is something out there that someone will use as self defence besides a knife.

* The Pen Is Mightier Then The Sword" 

I do believe that since he was panicing he believed his only option was to start jabbing me with a pen

[prentice crawford]

Woof Maxx,
 If nothing else it is a perfect example of how things can escalate into a deadly situation. Step one: you identified a trouble maker, two: you make eye contact, three: a verbal exchange, four: pushing, five and six: fist fight and grappling, seven: a weapon appears and a stabbing takes place.
                                  P.C.

[Crafty_Dog]

Exactly so.

[selfcritical]

Kind of fits my experience too. Everyone I know who was actually attacked with a knife came from an escalated arguement.  By contrast, when I was mugged with a knife i felt at no point like I was in danger. This is probably why I associate really violent knife attacks with "status-based" violence rather than pure predatory behavior.

[JDN]

Yes, I've hard the expression, "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight".

That said, in the City of Los Angeles, it's near impossible to get a CCW.  For that matter, California in general is rather restrictive.  As a side note,
I've always found it rather odd that CCW's are issued by local authorities, rather I think it makes sense for the State to issue them since the CCW is
valid State wide.

Anyway, back to topic.

California knife laws in general are quite reasonable.  I always carry a sturdy folding knife (Large Sebenza; blade length 3.6").  My theory being that I can use it as a Kubaton unopened giving me an advantage in a fight, and if matters escalate and I fear for my life, I have the blade.  I do train on a weekly basis; it's never enough, but I am comfortable with the knife.

However, as has been pointed out elsewhere on this forum, the bad guys have no hesitation about carrying a gun without a CCW.  Therefore, does anyone know of any books, DVD's, etc. that address the issue of knife versus gun from the knife perspective?  Odd, I've found a lot of material from the gun perspective; i.e. giving space, triangleing, etc. but almost nothing from the perspective of one carrying a knife versus a gun. 

usually we train knife versus knife.  It's fun and all training is beneficial of course, but frankly not very realistic; knife against knife fights are very rare.  Odds are that when I open and use a knife, it will be because my opponent has a gun or that they are unarmed, but there are 2-3 of them and they are younger, bigger, and stronger, therefore I fear for my life.

Anyway, any suggestions for training resources would be greatly appreciated.

[G M]

You aren't fighting a gun, you are fighting a person with a gun. Nullify the person and the gun is no longer a threat.

[JDN]

In a way I understand your point, but then.....  Do I go directly for him? Neck, throat, heart, etc.  Or should I focus and debilitate/cut the gun arm/hand?  In knife against knife, or sword versus sword, a common tactic is to attack the weapon hand, thereby eliminating the potential lethal threat first allowing time for further action if necessary.  Further, knife wounds, while they can be fatal are rarely fatal immediately; time exists for the bad guy to draw his gun.  I'm guessing an average person can draw in 2-3 seconds.  Plenty of time for a double tap that would be fatal to me; perhaps he dies later of blood loss, etc. but that doesn't help me.

[G M]

The advantage of the knife is it never runs out of ammo, though they can break, get knocked from your grasp or cut you if you are not careful.

The knife is a deadly force tool. It shouldn't be used in non-deadly force scenarios. There is no "nice" way to cut someone. Now, if you were engaging a criminal assailant in legitimate self defense and you happen to sever some tendons and his gun clatters to the ground and he curls up into a ball grasps his arm and screams and displays no more aggressive behavior, then you can stop stabbing the shiite out of him as a reasonable person.

However, if it doesn't go that way then you keep going until either he has taken you out or you have rendered him a threat no longer.

I'm very skeptical of the "defanging the snake" concept. Sure, it sounds nice, but is it realistic? If you can "Zorro" an opponent's weapon out of their hand, awesome. I'd like to see where and when this has actually happened in real deadly force confrontations.

[JDN]

GM; thank you for your input.

While I have always enjoyed the old Zorro movies, I too am a bit cynical of "defanging the snake" in the heat of the moment.

You said, "The knife is a deadly force tool. It shouldn't be used in non-deadly force scenarios.".

Are you saying that you don't like/wouldn't use a closed folded knife as a blunt instrument, as a kubaton, to help even the odds against for example a younger, stronger, but unarmed assailant?  If one is concerned about legal ramifications, (I am) I would think that a kubaton would be a more acceptable weapon, like a cane (which while effective I am reluctant to carry), being that it is "non lethal" would be a more acceptable "weapon" in the eyes of the police or a DA than an open knife.  Or do you disagree?

[G M]

I'm familiar with the Kubaton and the self defense techniques taught around it. I'm very skeptical again as to the usefulness of those techniques. "Pain compliance" can be useful in certain law enforcement scenario when dealing with non-compliant persons who are already in custody, as far as for self defense on the street, not so much.

As far as dealing with the younger, stronger unarmed assailant, O.C. is a good way to "break contact" as you unass the area. Like everything, O.C. isn't 100%, but I've had lots of good outcomes with it.

[JDN]

It's not so much "pain compliance" as just pain.   I want him to go away, not come with me.   

You might not be impressed with my punch to your jaw, but I assure you that you will be "impressed" if I use blunt force metal kubaton to your jaw or side of your head.  Strikes with a metal kubaton to joints, bones, etc. can be quite effective.

My question is the legal ramification thereof.  I know an open knife is using "lethal force" and I need to be aware of that before doing so, however if I use a Kubaton, is that considered "lethal force" or merely the same as using a cane, an available chair, etc.?

[G M]

"You might not be impressed with my punch to your jaw, but I assure you that you will be "impressed" if I use blunt force metal kubaton to your jaw or side of your head.  Strikes with a metal kubaton to joints, bones, etc. can be quite effective."

Then it's an impact weapon, and in a legal sense the same as using a pipe, piece of rebar, padlock in a sock or rock to hit someone with. If your intent is to use these strikes on some hulking veteran of San Quentin after he decides to play with you, be sure to attach a packet of KY jelly to the Kubotan's key ring.

[JDN]

 
All thing are relative.  My odds, albeit slim, are better with an impact weapon than no weapon at all.  However, if confronted with "the hulking veteran of San Quentin", I'll probably open the knife and take my chances with the Police/DA.  Obviously, I feared for my life!   

If the kubaton ends up in me  or merely his fist ends up in me doesn't make a whole lot of difference.  Either way I'm not happy.   

But in summary, I take you are are saying that a folding knife, unopened, would be considered an "impact weapon" and therefore not necessarily a "lethal weapon" as would be a fixed blade or folding knife with the blade out.

[G M]

"But in summary, I take you are are saying that a folding knife, unopened, would be considered an "impact weapon" and therefore not necessarily a "lethal weapon" as would be a fixed blade or folding knife with the blade out."

Depends on the relevant state statutes. An Oscar awards statutette or a golf club wasn't designed to be a weapon, but if one used it as a weapon, one could face the same charges as using bo stick purchased from a martial arts store. If I had to choose, I'd take a 9 iron over the Bo anyway. Generally, something used as a deadly weapon is considered by the law as a deadly weapon even if it wasn't designed to be one. Often, using any kind of weapon makes what would be a misd. assault charge into a felony assault charge. Again, consult your local laws and qualified legal advisors.

One can claim self defense, and given a disparity in the size and strength of your opponent, the reasonable use of a weapon. Of course, that ends up being the discretion of the investigating officer, the DA's office and perhaps a jury. Some states require that you make a good faith attempt to leave before defending one's self, others allow for "standing your ground" in public places

I few things I have seen firsthand related to "pain compliance":

1. I saw an inmate in a maximum security facility attempt to climb out the yard through rolls of razor wire, wearing only a t-shirt and scrubs. He came back only wearing his pants as the rags of what was his shirt was bloody tatters in the wire. He was cut everywhere and bleeding like something out of a Clive Barker horror film. To my relief, we were able to talk him into cuffing up for medical treatment. He was in a rage for what he felt was the injust treatment he got from the criminal justice system, but never indicated the slightest evidence of pain.

2. I dealt with an agitated inmate in the same facility who was prone to sudden violent outbursts. He had one eye that was criscrossed with scar tissue. I had never before seen an eye that had been damaged like that. I found out that years before, this individual became angry at a write-up and while standing in front of staff, jammed his index finger into his own eye so violently, it had ruptured they eyeball. I was very careful in dealing with him, given that if he could do that to himself.....

3. I responded to a call where a female subject had taken a "golf pencil" and jammed it through a section of her arm. Only the extreme ends were visible. It had gone through skin, subcutanious fat and muscle. She never demonstrated the slightest bit of pain, even when the Dr. removed it w/out any treatment for pain.

These are just a few of the examples I could cite that I've seen with my own eyes. I've gone hands on with many people of this ilk. They function in ways that normal humans don't, so don't expect that things that would work on you would work on them. Some of them are like f'ing terminators without computer chips.

[Crafty_Dog]

A lot of wisdom to be gleaned there.

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