Author Topic: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")  (Read 209769 times)

Crafty_Dog

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« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 10:24:58 AM by Crafty_Dog »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts
« Reply #251 on: January 22, 2012, 07:01:53 PM »
Someone was asking me about this so TTT.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
« Reply #252 on: October 25, 2013, 10:58:34 AM »
This came up on our FB page so TTT.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
« Reply #253 on: June 23, 2014, 02:39:05 PM »
ttt

Dog Robertlk808

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Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
« Reply #254 on: June 23, 2014, 07:03:44 PM »
Some good reading in this thread!
"You see, it's not the blood you spill that gets you what you want, it's the blood you share. Your family, your friendships, your community, these are the most valuable things a man can have." Before Dishonor - Hatebreed

Crafty_Dog

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Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
« Reply #255 on: December 04, 2014, 08:24:29 AM »
This subject has come up on a FB thread and so as to facilitate finding the thread for readers from there coming over here, TTT.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
« Reply #256 on: January 24, 2015, 08:41:16 PM »


I've no reason to suspect trickery here, but only you are responsible for you, but apparently one can download the Yambao book here!

http://fmahistoryredux.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-first-written-account-of-kali-as.html?spref=fb
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 09:31:33 PM by Crafty_Dog »

Crafty_Dog

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Crafty_Dog

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Yambao
« Reply #258 on: April 19, 2016, 10:51:38 AM »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
« Reply #259 on: May 18, 2017, 01:17:32 PM »
ttt

Crafty_Dog

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Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
« Reply #260 on: May 30, 2018, 07:48:02 AM »
From a Filipino FMA FB page:

Toby Genato:  From a historian friend, so far the oldest written document in reference to the art was written in a wood bark paper, carbon dates 1480s, Pre-Magellan.

Written in Baybayin: “Para syang ullo, nagkakali-kali mag-isa?” (Or something to that effect)
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Roland Isla
Roland Isla Translation please.
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Novus Gladius
Novus Gladius Roland Isla “He seems crazy, doing Kali all by himself. “

, , , ,

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Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
How do we know the "kali" mentioned means the martial art? It could mean digging with a stick as in some Philippine languages today.
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Tim Tamaraw Rivera
Tim Tamaraw Rivera Toby Genato, ask your historian friend for details on the find. I'd be very interested in tracking it down.
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Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Toby Genato did you ask your historian friend about the earliest reference to the word "kali" (with no definition) or the word "kali" meaning a fighting art? Exactly what you asked may lead to different answers. It could be that what your friend gave you doesn't refer to a fighting art at all
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Toby Genato
Toby Genato Its not kali perse its kali-kali. Kalis, Kali-Kali are the terms used describing the the art. That itself for me brings relevance to this finding. I thought we all agreed from an old thread hear that there are bo direct liniage to Kali ang the Older FMA?

We were talking about the art. He is also very good with baybayin and i trust his translation. He has a vast collection of pre world war 2 blades some of which are 80-100 years or older. Why does he know? Because he carbon-dated each in his collection which 80% came from overseas. The text i belive he saw from one of his sources for the blades. These guys are serious collectors. Rumor has it he’s planning to showacase some of the peices at the Ayala Museum...if it ever pushes through. He is also a fellow KDL practitioner. And yes, that particular peice of parchment is not in pur country but in a private collection.
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Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Toby Genato, "kalis" as a fighting art is a relatively new meaning I think. it just originally meant sword as far as I know. As for kali-kali, I am not aware that it is accepted among historians/researchers that it has a prehispanic or even pre-1957 definition of being a fighting art. To me the writing could mean, "he's crazy digging with a stick all by himself". Did I miss the boat on something?
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Toby Genato
Toby Genato The reference was into fighting arts. There was no mention of stick as well. Even in the Panay region as far as i know kali-kali is what they refer to in terms of fighting arts. Escrima came later.
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Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Hmm... if this was common knowledge, I think it would've resolved the kali debate a long time ago. Felipe P. Jocano Jr., were you aware of this?
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Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Toby Genato, this is what makes me reluctant. In Philippine languages repeating a word does not usually change meaning. Sayaw and sayaw-sayaw pretty much mean the same thing.

http://www.binisaya.com/cebuano/kali

Felipe P. Jocano Jr. have to look into this. this is new to me.
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Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Toby Genato, pretty much the same meaning in hiligaynon, the language of the ilonggos (iloilo, negros occidental). I guess in tagalog kali-kali would be hukay-hukay.

https://hiligaynon.pinoydictionary.com/word/kali/
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Hiligaynon Dictionary - Meaning of káli
hiligaynon.pinoydictionary.com
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Raymundo Valdez Lucero
Raymundo Valdez Lucero Torqui, in Ilokano, kali also means, to stab.
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Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Raymundo Valdez Lucero, and what would kali-kali mean in Ilokano?
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Raymundo Valdez Lucero
Raymundo Valdez Lucero Stab-stab. Hahahha
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Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Raymundo Valdez Lucero, haha! I figured as much.
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Ferdinand Guya Lastrilla
Ferdinand Guya Lastrilla Torqui Dojillo In Waray-Waray, kali would be similar, a ditch dug out.
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Tim Tamaraw Rivera
Tim Tamaraw Rivera "Kalis" as a fighting art is mentioned in 17th century dictionaries.
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Ferdinand Guya Lastrilla
Ferdinand Guya Lastrilla Torqui Dojillo "gather root crops by digging" would be related to the Tagalog kalkal, like digging in to search.
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Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Ferdinand Guya Lastrilla Aah! So! It never occured to me.
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Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Tim Tamaraw Rivera, wasn't it kalis to mean sword that was mentioned in the 17th century?
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Tim Tamaraw Rivera
Tim Tamaraw Rivera Torqui Dojillo both sword and fighting with a sword (esgrimiendo)
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Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Tim Tamaraw Rivera, reference please.
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Tim Tamaraw Rivera
Tim Tamaraw Rivera Buenaventura, vocabulario de la lengua tagala, 1613, I believe. I can dig it up later if that's not the one.
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Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
Tim Tamaraw Rivera, please do. That would be most interesting.
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Felipe P. Jocano Jr.
Felipe P. Jocano Jr. Tim Tamaraw Rivera Fray San Buenaventura?
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Torqui Dojillo
Torqui Dojillo
Torqui and 2 others manage the membership, moderators, settings, and posts for The Filipino Martial Arts Forum.
A Tausug friend tells me "nagkakali-kali" means to dig around in their language.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 07:55:02 AM by Crafty_Dog »

Crafty_Dog

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Bong Abenir
« Reply #261 on: January 16, 2019, 10:45:28 PM »
ABOUT THE FILIPINO FIGHTING ARTS
By Bong Abenir, AKS

Are Martial Arts which have its origins in the Philippines. The practitioners of these arts emphasize the use of blunt, projectile, hand to hand and bladed weapons. Projectile weapons may refer to spears, bow and arrow, blow guns and knives. Today some have already included the use of firearms which I see as a necessary addition to our skills in order to keep up with the modern times and adapt ourselves to address possible scenarios which involves these types of weapons.

Arnis de mano is the term commonly used to refer to the Filipino Martial Art. It is a corruption of the Spanish word “Arnes” that refers to the various means by which armor was strapped on. The term arnis as I've observed is more likely the preferred name in most Tagalog regions like here in Manila and laguna. Now I may be wrong so please don't quote me on this.

Escrima is also from the Spanish word “Esgrima” which means “Fencing”, it is a sword fighting art through which the older masters of the blade-based Filipino Martial Art prefer to call it. The word eskrima is often used among the Visayan regions like Cebu.

Kali is another term used to refer to the Filipino Martial Art which probably has its origins (according to some) to the term “Pagkali-kali” in describing the locked talon-jousts of eagles in mid-air. Others have given their explanations as to the origin of the term. A master who I inquired about it said that KALI for him means "Karunungang Lihim" wherein the first two letters (KA and LI) of the words were joined together referring to the art. He says that karunungang lihim which translated in english would mean secret knowledge. A term which borders around the area of mysticism for it was said that masters of this art are also known to be healers as well. Although this sounds silly to many modern day thinkers but some (especially elders) believe that there were eskrimadors who were known to posses uncanny abilities through the use of their oracions and anting-anting. That is as far as I would go about this. Moving on, this term however is not familiar to most of the Filipino Masters here in the Philippines. But is now gaining acceptance as a legitimate name for FMA as well. The term Kali is more widely used in foreign countries especially in the US.

Kalis is a term which means sword in Tagalog. “Kalis is also a term preferred by the late Master Antonio Diego. He said that the term is more appropriate for Antonio Ilustrisimo’s art due to its blade based orientation. This is also the word I used for our system which of course I got from mang Tony's influence. He reitirated this to me many times until I decided to use the word instead of the former name which was Abenir Kali. So from then on we were known as Abenir Kalis.

I would wish to post this info as well which was shared by my friend Karl Medina:

I come from Central Luzon in a province with predominantly Tagalog speakers. I would, on occasion hear older people say "kalisin mo na lang yan" which I hear them say when ordering someone to use a blade to whittle, carve, or trim any object that can be affected by a blade, be it wood, animal or human hair, or even fins and scales of fish. I am no language expert, but if I have to translate "kalisin" according to my elders' usage, i would say that it is a verb in the future tense which means to process an object using a blade. And by blade it could mean all sorts of blades, big and small; from the humble labaha (razor "la navaja" in Spanish) to the versatile gulok.

As a verb:

Future tense: Kalisin
Present tense: Kinakalis
Past tense: Kinalis
Root word: Kalis

As a noun:

Kalis: a blade.

I hope this helps.

Note: I don't find anything wrong with others using the word Kali. It was my act of obedience to my late teacher's request which prompted me to do so. He was very generous to allow me to go on my own path since he knew of my heavy influence in Silat which I naturally would express in many of my movements especially when it comes to shorter blades and empty hands. So this was my way of showing respect and deep gratitude towards him.

All these (Arnis, Eskrima, Escrima, Kali, Kalis) are now interchangeable terms which describe blade, stick and empty hand way of the Filipino Martial Art or FMA.

Interchangeable, meaning (like in my case) that I could use any of these to refer to my system. And we could call or refer to ourselves or any Fma practioner as Arnisadors, Eskrimadors or Kalista, bastoneros.......No contradiction and nothing wrong with that. Whatever their emphasis is. Wether they're known more with the use of sticks while others are more into swords are in general under the same concept. Mainly, that the weapons are merely an extension of the arms. Now if others still make a big issue out if it by constantly bashing others just by minor things such as this then that's their problem.

History of Arnis

Nobody really knows the true origin of Arnis (But we Filipinos know more about the legend of "Si malakas at si maganda, Ang alamat ng saging" and other similar stories! since there were no written treatises about the art before the twentieth century. And this is probably due to the fact that most of the written documents our ancestors had were burned by the Spaniards. It was outlawed by their officials who led to underground practice of the art. Some of its masters and practitioners were reduced to doing roles as fight choreographers and actors on theatrical performances during Moro-Moro stage plays which depicts combat between Christians and non-Christians.

Although for sure we had a martial art which was being used by our ancestors in order to protect each other either from other tribes or warring clans and from foreign invaders. That is why we have the story between the fight from the army of Magellan and the legendary Lapu-Lapu and his warriors. Nobody knows exactly what kind of martial arts they were using or if they even had a name for it……but it’s quite clear that they knew how to fight well. As of the moment the only clear and reliable documentation ever done pertaining this battle which happened in 1521 is through the writings of Antonio Pigafetta. Magellan's chronicler.

However there were references to the art by the likes of Jose Rizal when he studied Arnis as a young lad and even included it on his school curriculum when he built one during his exile in Dapitan. We also have other well known historical figures such as Juan and Antonio Luna and Marcelo H. del Pilar who were known to have studied and practiced the art. An epic called Florante at Laura by Balagtas also mentions the term Arnis as a form of martial art.

Today we have seen the Filipino Martial Art featured on both local and international films such as Kamagong, Mano-Mano, Bourne Sequels, Mission Impossible 3, and the Hunted. There are also a lot of instructional videos and numerous reading materials found in the internet and books written about it. It has now become one of the most in-demand and popular Martial Art in the United States and Europe. Thanks to the likes of Dan Inosanto, Antonio Diego, Mark Wiley, The Dog Brothers, Leo Gaje, Edgar Sulite, Christopher Ricketts and others who had popularized the art by exposing it to the public thru seminars, instructional videos, magazines and books.

Although histories or rather stories by some of its masters and practitioners are often made up or not always trustworthy since most of their claims regarding the origin of their art are often shrouded in mysteries such as masters who dreamt of being taught by enchanted spirits, and others who traveled many treacherous mountains and learned their skills either through a beautiful blind princess or a hermit. Either these were just metaphors or actually believed to be true is up to us to interpret (I am dying to hear stories of those who learned Arnis from a very ugly princess without arms and legs or those who dreamt of learning from an enchanted frog…..What can I say?
Thanks to authors like Mark Wiley who have made a thorough investigation of the history of the Filipino Martial Art that we have now a scholarly study of the subject. His book “Filipino Martial Culture” is a good reading material. We also have other good sources which come from Filipino authors like Rey Galang and Edgar Sulite.

Forms of Arnis, Escrima and Kali/s

Solo Baston or single stick is a form which an arnisador uses a stick measuring about twenty to thirty inches long, with a diameter of an inch. The free hand is used for parrying, striking and snatching the weapon from the enemy.

Doble Baston is using two sticks with equal length and is wielded with skill. Another term for the movements used for wielding two sticks is called sinawali. Movements requires hands that are well coordinated which if done properly is very beautiful to watch. It is also lethal in fight application. Espada/punta y daga is elegant very elegant in form. It uses a sword and a dagger to simultaneously cut, thrust, parry and spill off attacks and relies more on circular footworks, body defense positions and precision of its attack while holding these defensive postures. It is said that it got some of its influence from Spanish sword play using similar weapons.

Kutsilyo or Baraw is the form of using a knife in which the skills used by the Filipinos in wielding this weapon is highly regarded as very practical and functional. It also employs the handling of two knives.

Mano-Mano and Dumog is the empty hand form which employs the use of punches, elbows, knees, kicks and grappling skills (If you're picturing BJJ or Judo then its not like that. Actually it's more on eye gouge, groin, arm and hair pull, biting even and whatever. It's just plainly used to survive streetfights) Many do not know that this particular phase of Arnis, Escrima and Kali/s is included in the curriculum. Thinking that the art is purely weapons oriented, but the truth is that it is a complete fighting system where empty hand and weapons training are emphasized to become a well-rounded martial artist.

There are also fighting systems which is indigenous in the Philippines that use also sticks or bladed weapons such as Sikaran, Yaw-Yan, Dumog (Yaw-Yan Kampila led by Maestro Rennie Ross has combined elements of Filipino grappling arts into in their training method) and others but are more focused on empty hand combat. These arts like Yaw-Yan are perfect translation of arnis into empty hands. I know this because this was my very first formal martial art training back in the late 80's under Coach Orlando lapuz. Formal meaning that I learned systematically inside a training facilty. Hand techniques were derived from stick fighting. But the kicks are equally beautiful and devastating. Filipino Fighting Arts is indeed a pragmatic martial art system. It is A system which still find its way relevant on the streets as a means of self defense. Most importantly, it is part of our rich Filipino heritage, culture and tradition.


Abenir Kalis System Bolo and Knife Fighting DVDs by Cranes Production are available through this link:
https://videos.cranesproduction.com/shop/148880

email: abenirbong@yahoo.com

Crafty_Dog

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Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
« Reply #262 on: March 04, 2019, 04:31:55 PM »
ttt

Crafty_Dog

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Re: the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")
« Reply #263 on: April 24, 2019, 02:36:43 PM »
ttt