How long does it take various knife wounds to incapacitate?

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof All:

I kick this thread off with a flashy example of a particular point, but the larger question remains:  Just how long does it take various knife wounds to incapacitate?

TAC!
CD
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Man Unaware of Knife in His Neck Following Fight

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Man Unaware of Knife in His Neck Following Fight

Tuesday , February 23, 2010

A knife blade has been found lodged in the neck of a man who didn't even realize he had been stabbed.

Ambulance Victoria said the Australian man's wife saw blood trickling out of his neck when he went to bed after apparently being in a fight.
After calling for an ambulance, paramedics discovered the blade had snapped off in his neck.

Slideshow: Outrageous Injuries

Intensive care flight paramedic Matthew Shepherd said the 40-year-old claimed he had been in a fight and felt a thump to his neck - but was unaware he had been stabbed.  Remarkably, he escaped serious injury when the blade came within millimeters of his spine.  He was flown by air ambulance from Albury to Melbourne this morning and is in a stable condition.

"The 40-year-old said he went home and got into bed, not realizing he had been stabbed,'' Shepherd said."The man's wife then apparently found blood coming from his neck and called for an ambulance

"On closer examination it was found that a blade had snapped off in his neck.

"It came within millimeters of his spine, but thankfully it hasn't made contact.

"Our biggest priority during the flight was to make sure the man stayed as still as possible, to prevent the blade from moving and potentially causing further damage.''

Earlier this month Russian woman Julia Popova, 22, made global headlines after she was stabbed during a mugging in Moscow - but did not realize and walked calmly home with a knife in her neck.

When she got home her horrified parents rushed her to the hospital, where surgeons managed to remove the blade without damaging her spine.

"Shock had kicked in and her body prevented her from feeling any pain," one medic said.

"She simply walked home without feeling the knife in her back."

[bjung]

I remember talking to a couple of people, one LEO, who had been sliced with a knife. THey siad they didn't even realise it unitl after the fight and they were bleeding. 

[Rarick]

I expect that it depends on the damage done.  An artery, major nerve, how a muscle was cut, etc.

[Crafty_Dog]

Well, duh    The question presented is which targets have what effects. 

[Kaju Dog]

A lot of variables come to mind.   age, size, weight, BAC, pre-existing medical condition *(ie Blood pressure probs/meds).

Anyone want to kick this off with a stab at....;

MAM *(Military Age Male), in the "adrenal state" but otherwise healthy without any meds, drugs or alcohol, gets brachial artery  severed during a conflict.  He has a flash knockout from BFT *(Blunt force trauma), then wakes up on the floor alone without anyone to assist.

HOW LONG DOES BUBA HAVE? ...and what would you do if this was you?

[Rarick]

a minute or two before LOC, another one maybe 2 before too much lost to recover.   Tourniquet time if the cut is low enough, I would put some sort of pad in the area of the artery to have a better chance of pinching it off.    I would not bother with pressure- that never stops an artery unless the presure involves pinching it shut.  (Balckhawk down scene comes to mind.....)


Hey that reminds me of something I ran across:

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Warrior-Wear-Tactical-ITS-Shirt,1075,187.htm

Kind of scary, but maybe a result of those IED's?

[Crafty_Dog]

Good teaching question Kaju:

To kick things off, this grasshopper will assay an answer.  The precision of my anatomical knowledge is de minimis, so please forgive me if I am wide of the mark.

I once heard someone say that a tennis ball, baseball, grenade? (pin still in, duh) could be put in the armpit and then the arm belted around the waist.  Drivel or practical? 

Rarick:

Are you saying there are tourniquets built into that shirt and those pants?

[Rarick]

Yep, apparently they are finding out IED's do so much limb damage that you may as well go right to a tourniquet.  Either that or they are appealing to "St. Wayne" in some fashion.

As for the arm and ball- maybe, that is where a major artery runs and if you got the positioning right.  I would pick a spot closer to the holes tho'.  If a tourniquet is on for too long, you lose the limb below the tourniquet. I figure the less you put at risk, the better.

[Kaju Dog]

Giving this one a few days to be kicked around.

[Rarick]

I know where arteries are to aim for, but nerve bundles would be damn near instantaneous.  I am kind of waiting too, I do not have practical experience, just some anecdotal stuff.  I figured a Granddaddy might be around who would know..........

[Bandolero]

Are you saying there are tourniquets built into that shirt and those pants?

Blackhawk has a line of clothing with just such built into it.  Warrior Wear ITS (Integrated Tourniquet System):

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Warrior-Wear-Tactical-ITS-Shirt,1075,1447.htm

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Warrior-Wear-Tactical-ITS-Pants,1076,1447.htm

[Kase]

You may find the answers your seeking in Christopher Grosz and Michael Janich's books "Contemporary Knife Targeting: Modern Science vs. W.E. Fairbairn's Timetable of Death", which is published by Paladin Press.

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof Kase:

Care to offer a synopsis?

[Kase]

The authors (along with the help Dr. Michael Doberson; a coroner and a professor of pathology at the University of Colorado) compare Fairbairn's "Timetable of Death" with the realities of edged weapon attacks. The targets selected are based on those presented in Fairbairn's table but with a plethora of variables relating to the target being attacked (i.e. percentage of blood volume the target is responsible for, time / shock, time / unconsciousness, time / death, etc..). The book is graphic in certain spots so you'll probably want to avoid leaving on it out in plane sight. Finally, although there is a healthy amount of Janich's MBC material, the reader gets a more factual grasp as to what is involved in an edged weapon attack.

[G M]

Dr. Doberson is very well respected in the world of forensic pathology.

[jkdsouljah]

on a slight tangent, if people can take a knife to the neck, not know it and presumably have continued to fight to the conclusion of the fight - it seems the idea of "defanging the snake" would not hold up.

IIRC, Jerry Wetzel, on his Red Zone videos, talks about the idea of "defanging the snake" not serving as an adequate disarm - that even a pretty deep cut to the inside of the forearm/wrist will not necessarily cause the bad guy to drop the knife. There was an interview with a Dr on the video also, supporting this. Not that I want to test either theory, but I like the idea of the threat being the bad guy (not the weapon), so deal with the bad guy effectively and in essence you've dealt with the weapon. Always being aware of the possibility of a weapon of course and taking appropriate measures.

[Kase]

I think that depends on what you define as "defanging the snake".  I'd say if you get fingers lopped off or a substantial slash/stab to the hand, then the likelihood that you'll retain your weapon is unlikely.

[Rarick]

Are you saying there are tourniquets built into that shirt and those pants?

Blackhawk has a line of clothing with just such built into it.  Warrior Wear ITS (Integrated Tourniquet System):

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Warrior-Wear-Tactical-ITS-Shirt,1075,1447.htm

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Warrior-Wear-Tactical-ITS-Pants,1076,1447.htm

Read the thread.....that is what we were talking about.

[jkdsouljah]

I think that depends on what you define as "defanging the snake".  I'd say if you get fingers lopped off or a substantial slash/stab to the hand, then the likelihood that you'll retain your weapon is unlikely.

True, but I guess what I was getting to is that I wouldn't rely on any one tactic... all tactics can fail for whatever reason. Always need a Plan B I like Tony Blauer's take on this that "the superior warrior has no emotional attachment to any particular range of combat", or tactic.