Author Topic: Ottoman Turkish-Filipino Moro Connection?  (Read 7632 times)

Spadaccino

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
Ottoman Turkish-Filipino Moro Connection?
« on: June 27, 2004, 10:05:43 AM »
Does anyone know if there was ANY kind of contact between the Ottoman Turks and the Moros of the Southern Philippines in the 16th and 17th centuries?

I ask this for a couple of reasons:

1.  The Ottomans were big on consolidating all Muslim countries against the European Christian powers--and Spain was of course a major opponent.

2.  The Spanish in the PI sometimes compared the fighting ability of the Filipinos in general to that of Moors and Turks.

3.  The word kalis has been said to be derived from the Turkish term kilij, which simply means "sword", though it most often refers to a comparatively short and heavy saber (as opposed to the longer, thinner, and more elegant Persian shamshir).

Any input would be appreciated, as I've never been clear on this issue.

Thanks,

Dave/Spad/TFS
"And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable." --Sir John Smythe, 1590

Thanksgiving Turkey

  • Guest
Re: Ottoman Turkish-Filipino Moro Connection?
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2004, 08:20:28 PM »
I guess too far a connection. Only documented ones are Arab missionaries and Filipinos were too fragmented (even up to now) with its 7100 islands. It would not have been worth their effort to try to communicate from a far away land to consolidate so many fragmented tribes against Spanish rule.

 



Quote from: Spadaccino
Does anyone know if there was ANY kind of contact between the Ottoman Turks and the Moros of the Southern Philippines in the 16th and 17th centuries?

I ask this for a couple of reasons:

1.  The Ottomans were big on consolidating all Muslim countries against the European Christian powers--and Spain was of course a major opponent.

2.  The Spanish in the PI sometimes compared the fighting ability of the Filipinos in general to that of Moors and Turks.

3.  The word kalis has been said to be derived from the Turkish term kilij, which simply means "sword", though it most often refers to a comparatively short and heavy saber (as opposed to the longer, thinner, and more elegant Persian shamshir).

Any input would be appreciated, as I've never been clear on this issue.

Thanks,

Dave/Spad/TFS

SUNHELMET

  • Guest
Suleyman the Magnificent
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2004, 12:39:33 PM »
I just found this thread.

I checked my book on Sultan Suleyman and there's no mention of the Ottoman Empire venturing beyond the surrounding seas on the eastern side. There was interaction with the Portugese.

It is quite interesting that an unrelated Rajah Sulayman was also ruling in Maynila around this time period.

As per the kilij, during Sultan Suleyman's time they were long swords with a curved end. Suleyman had several in his personal collection. They have been preserved and are in view in the definitive exhibition book, "The Age of Sultan Suleyman the Magnificent"  by Esin Atil, in association with the National Gallery of Art, WA and sources from Istanbul Muzesi, British Museum and Harvard Univ. amongst 27 others.

You might have it confused with 'husam' which is the word for 'sword'. The kilij that Suleyman possessed, actually has the word 'husam' inscribed on the blade in the context of the "sword (husam) is for the protection of the sultan of mankind".

--Rafael--
---------
---------
-------
-----------

SUNHELMET

  • Guest
extra:
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2004, 12:47:12 PM »
David,

I just remembered why I had this book. I searched for it for references in an unpublished adaptation I was going to do on Robert E. Howard's 'Shadows of the Vulture' which of course contained the character Red Sonya that was then altered for Marvel Comics to be included in their comics of REH's Conan the Barbarian.

In fact, 'Shadows of the Vulture' contains the first reference of an REH character calling someone a 'Dog Brother'!

How's that for getting back to the forum subject?

--Rafael--
-------
-------
-------
--------

Anonymous

  • Guest
Re: Suleyman the Magnificent
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2004, 05:56:21 AM »
Hi Rafael,

Quote from: SUNHELMET
I just found this thread.


And I'm glad you did!  :)  I was hoping that this thread would generate more responses...

Quote
I checked my book on Sultan Suleyman and there's no mention of the Ottoman Empire venturing beyond the surrounding seas on the eastern side. There was interaction with the Portugese.


I realize that the Portuguese fought a number of naval actions against Muslim fleets in that area.

But, what about the possibility of Ottoman trade (or other contact) with the Filipino Moros, via Arab middlemen?  Do you know of anything like that?

Quote
It is quite interesting that an unrelated Rajah Sulayman was also ruling in Maynila around this time period.


It is indeed interesting.

I have seen some Moro pakil armors, and their design is interesting.  Wiley suggested in Filipino Martial Culture that the pakil may have been based on Spanish armors, but the examples I have seen don't look even remotely Spanish--what they actually seem to resemble are similar maille-and-plate combination armors used by the Turks and Indians.  The Indian and Turkish varieties are made mainly of iron and/or steel, whereas the Filipino types feature brass maille (or iron or steel maille from captured Spanish hauberks), and plates of either brass or kamagong wood.  The only possible Spanish influence I have seen in these armors is in the helmets--many of which are clearly copies of Spanish burgonets (again, in brass instead of steel).

Here's a link to a couple of Moro burgonet-inspired helmets, as well as the maille-and-plate cuirasses:

http://vikingsword.com/rila/k15.jpg

And here's the link for the sight itself, which is very cool:

http://vikingsword.com/rila/krieger.html



Quote
As per the kilij, during Sultan Suleyman's time they were long swords with a curved end. Suleyman had several in his personal collection. They have been preserved and are in view in the definitive exhibition book, "The Age of Sultan Suleyman the Magnificent"  by Esin Atil, in association with the National Gallery of Art, WA and sources from Istanbul Muzesi, British Museum and Harvard Univ. amongst 27 others.


Again, the kilij was comparatively shorter than the shamshir, but I've just learned that the shorter, stouter kilijs I have seen date mainly from the 18th and 19th centuries.


Quote
You might have it confused with 'husam' which is the word for 'sword'. The kilij that Suleyman possessed, actually has the word 'husam' inscribed on the blade in the context of the "sword (husam) is for the protection of the sultan of mankind".


Well, Kilij is the Turkish word for "sword", and hussam is the Arabic word for "sword".  

BTW Rafael, is Atil's book still available?

Thanks,

David

Anonymous

  • Guest
Re: extra:
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2004, 06:04:52 AM »
Quote from: SUNHELMET
David,

I just remembered why I had this book. I searched for it for references in an unpublished adaptation I was going to do on Robert E. Howard's 'Shadows of the Vulture' which of course contained the character Red Sonya that was then altered for Marvel Comics to be included in their comics of REH's Conan the Barbarian.

In fact, 'Shadows of the Vulture' contains the first reference of an REH character calling someone a 'Dog Brother'!

How's that for getting back to the forum subject?

--Rafael--
-------
-------
-------
--------


Haha!

This is great stuff.

I have seen your pen-and-ink drawing of MIKHAIL OGLU from "Shadow of the Vulture", and it kicks major ass!  It's a real shame your adaptation was never published.

I mentioned a long time ago that I'm good friends with Mel Nebres (son of Rudy).  Rudy once did a drawing of a German landsknecht doppelsoldner with a big two-handed sword for me, based on an illustration in a book I leant to him.  He ended up using that drawing in some portfolio, and I still haven't seen it!  Talk about frustration!   :D

Robert E. Howard, Good Artwork, and FMA--the total "Triumvirate of Cool", IMO.

Peace,

David

Spadaccino

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
Ottoman Turkish-Filipino Moro Connection?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2004, 06:07:05 AM »
Dang it!  Forgot to login for the umpteenth millionth time... :?  :lol:
"And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable." --Sir John Smythe, 1590

Airyu

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
    • http://www.Bujinkandojo.net
Ottoman Turkish-Filipino Moro Connection?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2004, 12:14:56 PM »
Hello Dave

Do a search on "Ibn Battuta" he was an early Islamic traveler and map maker in the 14th century. There were others but I can't find my references to them.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

SUNHELMET

  • Guest
Atil's book
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2004, 12:14:15 PM »
David,

The book might be found on ebay - I got mine at Bookfinder several years ago. I don't know what it costs now...
I'd highly recommend it.... just purely on the tons of visual samples from the Sultan's collection.

Thanks for the info on the terminology- they tend to go back and forth freely in the book, possibly due to the large amount of contributors from different areas of the world.

Yes, I've seen several versions on the Moro armor... it has less Spanish influence because it is piece together like makeshift lamellar would be. I agree on the helmets.. very Spanish. The Spanish didn't list the Filipinos as having any indigenous helmets to speak of in their catalogue back in the 1800's. I'll check again.

Speaking of Mr. Nebres - I'm sure that illustration is a beauty, he is a master with a brush and ink.

Who knows maybe 'Shadows of the Vulture' will someday see print- it would make a great film!


best,
--Rafael--
------
------
------
------