The Tradition and Culture Thread

[nasigoreng]

? "Absorb what is useful, disregard that which is useless"
? "Smuggling concepts across the frontiers of style."

 In this thread I would like to address the impact of the above statements on traditionalism in the martial arts. In particular:
 
How do practicioners/teachers (i'm just a student) reconcile the statements above in regards to the culture they are 'borrowing' , 'adapting' , and 'smuggling' ( ) from. ex. I find culture facinating and though i am a big fan of NHB/MMA style martial arts and i want to train in a proven and effective martial art, I find myself bored with NHB/MMA because it's very one-dimensional (just technique and sparring). On the other hand, i find myself recently drawn to traditional martial arts (pencak silat)? because they have a have a history, they come from exotic places, and have many different aspects (self defense, dance/performance/music, spirituality) i can explore. In addition i feel like an anthropologist in that i'm preserving valuable information that's in danger of going extinct. Now I'm living in Indonesia and studying silat here....It's a real adventure


? *Does anyone study the culture from where (insert martial art) comes from? or.... Is culture useless?

 * If you profit from the knowledge of a certain culture (financially as in operating a m.a. school)? do you feel you owe something to the country of origin and it's people (and your instructors)??

? *How much of the native culture (predominantly South East Asian i presume for this forum) do you include in your class? (terminology, salutations, jurus, music, art, spirituality, unique weapons, etc..). Do you consider these aspects important to your class?

 * For those who have had training in the country of origin,? do you teach/ train in the same way you were instructed? What do you do differently?

? * The goal of the JKD and Dog Brothers is growth and evolution. But what are we leaving behind? I mean, if a certain style of silat has 12 jurus and I decide only jurus 6-12 are useful so I discard the rest, what are the consequences? What if my teacher is the last representative of that particular style and i am his only student.. will jurus 1-5 will be gone forever? Just because i don't see application in those movements doesn't mean it isnt' there; it might be useful to someone else...... is there something you regret leaving out?

? These questions came up as i was discussing pencak silat with a very well travelled and well spoken silat teacher here in Indonesia. He's not very happy with the "commercialization" of p.s. in America:? ?he feels that we Americans are just "selling techniques" and in the worst cases using patents to "steal" a martial art (smuggle?) and keep it for ourselves.

 I apologize in advance for touching any nerves, I wish i could have organized my thoughts better before posting this thread. Look forward to replies,
thx

 

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof Nasigoreng:

Outstanding question.  Carry on.

CD

[rogt]

Woof Nasigoreng,

I think there's plenty to get out of including culture in the teaching of martial arts.  Even the elements considered meaningful only in terms of culture and tradition contain some tidbits that have useful applications, but this may not be obvious from the way it's taught.  In some cases, the teacher himself may not be aware of said applications, which generally puts the ball in the students court to do some exploration of his own.  When put to them respectfully and in the spirit of genuine exploration (as opposed to trying to show them up), my teachers have always been supportive of it.  There's also something kind of cool about practicing something for no other reason than that it's been passed down through centuries.  In that way, you make yourself part of the tradition that others will appreciate long after you're gone.

The only time teaching culture/tradition is problem is when the student is under the impression that he's being taught how to fight.  As long as it's made clear which parts are for fighting and which parts are culture/tradition, the student is free to make up his own mind.  A student will often be more open to training techniques in the formal, traditional way as long as it's made clear that how you practice it and how you'd use it in a fight are two different things, and spend at least some time practicing it in the way you'd fight with it.

Rog

[Jeff Gentry]

Hello nasigoreng

I am not a traditional martial artist, i have been studing Historic European martail art's for a few year's now http://www.thearma.org/, and in those year's i have had to learn a little bit of art history, language, culture, medieval/rennisance law, fashion, religion, a whole bunch of thing's i never would have thought of as being related to martial art's.

The tehcnique's and philosophy of most martial art's though at some point had something to do with all of these thing's, for instance pensak silate how hard/easy would it be to do some of the kick's in say a boot that was worn over the knee, the fasion of the day when it was at it's height may have contributed to some of the technique's, they may not work in the fasion of today because clothing has changed, although they may be very effective in the studio/dojo/sallet, so I do not think teaching tradition is bad it just need's to be put in context.

For example we see the keylock in Historic Euro. manual's alot and we see it in modern MMA competiton the diffrence in the two is that in the Historic manual's they instruct to break the arm with it, in modern MMA they are doing it in a slightly diffrent manner in order to submit there opponent.

Me personaly i like knowing how technique's came about and what they were/are used for and why, so studing culture/history is for me fascinating and can add to what i know.

As far as something not being useful ie 12 jurus of silate, more then likely there was a reason for 1-5 even if they do not have martial application they may teach certain movement's or lead to a combination of movement's, so in my mind i would want to know why do they do the first 5 how do they apply to 6-12.

From what i see most martial art's change and adapt over time to the norm's of a society and the change's in culture, when this happen's it will influence how they are taught and viewed the technique's that are added/dropped and change how they are taught and the philosophy behind the whole art itself.

I think most of the time people could benefit from the scholarly pursuit as well as the physical art, because i doubt anything being taught is useless most just do not know what the use is or where it came from and why it does not work in the modern context.

Just my 2 cent's worth.

Jeff

Ps

"Absorb what is useful, disregard that which is useless"
  "Smuggling concepts across the boundaries of style."

In some respect's this is why Most European martial art's fell by the way side, gun's were much easier to teach than a sword or a bow and westerner's are alway's quick to adapt the best/easiest weapon's, and discard that which is viewed as useless.

[Guard Dog]

Allow me to throw out a few quotes to add to this thread:

Concerning preservation I whole heartedly agree with what has been said many times by Crafty &TD, "we are not inventing anything, just rediscovering it." 

"drills and such are simply a recording system." ~ CD

Culture:

"To better understand the martial arts, you must understand the history.
To understand the history, you must understand the culture.
To understand the culture you must understand the philosophy and philosophers. . .
What they were trying to express to the people of that time period." ~ Said by Guro Dan (not sure who it was written by)

Gruhn

[BataanVet]

Hello nasigoreng,

Nothing against DBMA  but in my opinion DBMA does not really offer traditional PS training (djurus, salutations, adat, hormat, etc) I haven't seen any of it in their vid clips.  Maybe it would worthwhile for a notable group like the DB to establish some formal PS trainng as part of their growth.

[Guard Dog]

BataanVet,
  I see where you are coming from with the provided video clips but I could not disagree with you more.  Other than terminology I don't see much that Dog Brothers practitioners, instructors and teachers are doing that did not come from somewhere traditionally art oriented (refer to the quote Crafty states about consistent terminology).  Its important to DBMA to recognize the art in which each technique is taken from and I think Guro Crafty has done an outstanding job of relaying this to his students.  Something of which you need more than just the promo clips to see.  While you will not always see the twelve djurus and other recorded technique sequences familiar to PS, Dog Brothers Teachers have been greatly influenced and have studied Silat rather extensively to help facilitate their growth in the arts and fighting.

Gruhn

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof Nasigoreng:

As I mentioned previously, this is a very good question.  I've woken up a little early and will take a stab at beginning to answer:

Bataanvet writes "Nothing against DBMA  but in my opinion DBMA does not really offer traditional PS training (djurus, salutations, adat, hormat, etc) I haven't seen any of it in their vid clips.  Maybe it would worthwhile for a notable group like the DB to establish some formal PS trainng as part of their growth."

He is right that we do not offer a lot of traditional PS training.  First, please allow me to point out that we do not see ourselves or present ourselves as a one-stop shop for all things.  My teacher, Guro Inosanto, is readily available to any who are interested in this.  Many of our people come from Guro I. or someone trained by him and with my abilities and proclivities with regard to traditional PS I would feel quite inadequate in teaching it.

Second, while we do not have traditional djurus, we do have our own seguidas/djurus.  We do have our own salutation.  I forget what adat means (See!  I'm not the right man for teaching traditional PS!    ) 

As for hormat, if I remember correctly, the term refers to imparting values, including spiritual matters.  IMHO we do offer this, and rather extensively.  I would go so far as to say hormat is woven through most everything we do from the Dog Brothers credo "Higher Consciousness through harder contact" (c) forward.   Look at the powerful spiritual effects from fighting as we do:  "No judges, no referees, no trophies.  One rule only:  Be Friends at the end of the day." (c) 

How liberating to fight without keeping score!!!

No judges:  The meaning of the experience is what each fighter makes of the experience.  He does not submit himself to the judgement of others.

No referees:  Even in full blown adrenal state, the fighter remains morally responsible for his actions, for in what we do a referee cannot intervene in time.  To experience simultaneously high adrenaline aggression AND the calmness required to not do what would be too much, is a duality of powerful tranformational qualities.  It is to what we refer when we use the full statement of our credo "The greater the dichotomy, the profounder the transformation.  Higher consciousness through harder contact." (c)  Our intention is that a warrior tested and seasoned through the Dog Brothers experience is one who can step forward as a member of "the unorganized militia" in a moment of trouble to act with wisdom and morality-- as well as fighting skill.

No trophies:  The fighter does not do this for hierarchical reasons or the approval of the crowd.  He does this for himself.

Be friends at the end of the day:  No matter who our teachers or what our system may be, We are all members of the same tribe, preparing each other to stand together to defend our land, women and children.  We learn to fight so that we have maximal ability to win without lastingly damaging our opponent at the Gathering or an adversary in the street-- and have the ability to go as far as necessary to defend our land, women and children.  We prepare ourselves for the true Warrior's mission: To Protect and Serve.

I also submit that our hormat can be found in what many have come to call "The Dog Brothers philosophy"-- a mad blend of evolutionary biology/pyschology (especially Konrad Lorenz), Jungian psychology (and some of its offshoots such as Robert Bly and Joseph Campbell), and elements of various spiritual disciplines.  The DB philosophy seeks to offer DBMA practitioners a context in which and a framework with which to think about the biology of aggression, the pyschology of aggression, and the morality of aggression.

Many elements of our hormat which I discuss here also can be seen in our clips "Rambling Ruminations", "Knife Ruminations", and "The Unorganized Militia".



Lets turn now to the matter of teaching methodolgy.  Traditional PS tends to be highly secretive, even to its own students until they "prove their loyalty".  I too have my secrets and hold the instructors I develop responsible for maintaining certain things secret.  (Indeed, as I will discuss a bit more fully below, if I am any good at keeping secrets, people will not realize when I am doing it.)

That said, the mission statement of DBMA is to help good people "To walk as a warrior for all our days".  There is so much to learn, far more than can be learned in one life, that it makes little sense to me to tarry, dawdle and mislead in the process as I saw done in one traditional PS system.  And because tomorrow is promised to no one, I want people who train with me to get functional fast as well as "to walk as a warrior for all their days".  As a teacher I seek to establish long term benefits from the beginning even as I help our people become functional fast.  Growing in the art of doing this is an adventure for me every time I teach.

Because life is promised to no one, I seek the most effective teaching methods I can.  If they are traditional, I use them.  If they are not traditional, I use them.

It is time for me to turn to family matters of the morning and to prepare myself for a full day of teaching.  I am blessed.

More later.

The Adventure continues,
Guro Crafty

[nasigoreng]

i was going to ask Guro Crafty what traditions the Dog Brothers have started and he is already one step ahead of me. thanks.? Curiously, what the Dog Brothers have done in resurrecting the "Tribal Mentality" is a return to traditionalism in that you can't BUY your way into the Dog Brothers Tribe.?

Today i hope i can recapitulate my post in a more coherent way:

I believe that fighting is only one aspect of the martial arts.? In Asia, fighting phillosophy often goes hand in hand with etiquette, religion, and healing arts. ( In Indonesia, the Pendekar is often seen as a healer more than a fighter). Here is some mystic practices from Pekiti Tersia that i had previously never heard of

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXfZ9C9vJso


These modalities are not overlty expressed in the JKD Family so recently i've come to regard this martial art as somewhat...limited. Now that I've attained a skill level that i'm happy with, i'm looking for other aspects to explore ( healing, health, art, etc...) and this kind of information isn't overtly advertised within the JKD family ( & DBMA Tribe by association).?

A few years ago in Bangkok i saw a elderly chinese man doing some kind of Shaolin (?) routine: jumping into low crouching stances, then jumping up and kicking. I was impressed that this man at his age demonstrated more flexibility than I have ever had. It occured to me that there aren't many thai boxers of the same age with that kind? of flexibility and movement.? So in the end you could say; yeah... a thai boxer will beat any kung fu stylist. But on the other hand, those kung fu guys will bury the thai boxers. "The candle that burns brightest burns half as long." Just something to think about as we? continue to "Walk as a warrior for all our days."?


respect,
ray

P.S.

As Guro Crafty remarks in Kali Tudo:  MMA style fighting (dueling) has become "the paradigm". It's hard to spar eyejabs, groin strikes, etc... the 'dirty fighting' that's characteristic of Kali/Silat.  I really liked the self defense segment in the KT video and I hope this kind of "environmental/scenario" training can be incorporated to compliment the sparring/attributes development.


Punk Rocker Glenn Danzig has an instructor's ranking in JKD from Sifu Poteet.?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2223363733168053281&q=Danzig

Not sure how much sparring he did but reality proved too much for him.?

?
 

[C-Kumu Dog]

Again I was reading Jeff Finders Blog and I think this has some relevancy to the topic

by all means check out Jeff's Blogs, I believe it is full of some insightfull information...

http://escrima.blogspot.com/

Sunday, August 13, 2006
Spirituality in FMA
Someone posted the following quote on a martial art digest. Below is my response:

?People confuse filipino fighting arts with chinese and japanese arts. we are not founded by priests. we do not try to "make students better character", or "good people", that is what churches and mosques are for. FMA has one goal, to make good and effective fighters, to hurt people. you cannot do this in your mind or even at the drawing board. FMA has too many people with too many theories, not enough hands on.?

Yes and no. I certainly don't dispute the pragmatic goal of strong fighting skills as the raison d'etre for FMA training. As Master Han says in "Return of the Dragon", who knows how many treasures have been lost to the world because of the lack of the will to defend them. That statement, however, defines fighting skill as an outer level, whose purpose is as a shield to protect the inner. However, inner and outer are not separate but rather are part of each other by definition. A person empowered by their thoughts and beliefs will be stronger than one who is unsure or conflicted.

The power of the spirit was certainly known to Filipinos, the basis for practices like oracion and anting-anting. Before angles were known by numbers, they were taught by name association. Angle #1 was often called San Miguel because Saint Michael is depicted with an upraised sword of truth and justice, depicting that strike. Similarly, the Moros were feared not just for their fighting techniques, because Cebuanos and others proved equal in battle, but because it was the strength of their convictions that made them such formidable adversaries.

We may not think of murder and mayhem as spiritual, but even societies engaged in such practices have empowering belief systems. Viking beserkers were a terror across Europe, but they believed in Valhalla and an afterlife, which helped them conquer their fear of death.

It is said that one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Is taking up arms spiritual? Depends which side of that equation you are on. Does it make you a better person? Anything that engages us completely is a transformative experience, which is why the samurai took so readily to Zen, understanding the power of having "one mind." Most modern FMA is taught in a niche of "practicality" but anyone who undertakes a process of change experiences it inwardly as well. The old manongs would sometimes hold their hand over the head of a prospective student to see if they were too "hot-headed" to be trusted with deadly knowledge. They were concerned with the character of their students just as many of us are today.

Esoteric knowledge of the inner self has always been secretive, not just as a way to control power but because the masses were not deemed awakened enough to understand. It takes time to develop someone to a level of understanding, and the repression of Filipino culture under the Spanish diminished this part as well. Martial arts typically in times of war are less concerned with niceties of personal development, and so the FMA became noted for straightforward practicality. Now we live in an era in which knowledge is much more open through literacy and mass communication.

I see no reason not to include deeper awareness through self-examination as part of a curriculum. It may not suit every student, and it isn't the first thing taught, but in my experience such self-understanding enables people to progress further than if they are dependent on others to give them knowledge. Mind-body integration happens regardless of intentionality, but awareness is more powerful than ignorance. The discipline to train the body comes from the mind, and this process develops the spirit and will to succeed. These are not separate things.

Now not every instructor will delve into this. Many may not have the ability to communicate what they themselves feel internally, and so it is only through the training that they lead others towards mastery. Make no mistake, though. Mastery is not just of the techniques, but of the self; polish the spirit and the results will be evident.

This connection is more prominent in many styles of Silat than FMA these days, but the similarity of the arts and cultural connections are a clue such awareness can be found in both. In the end, spirituality is the essence of each of us, not just something to be controlled by religious organizations. When we dedicate ourselves through effort, we elevate ourselves regardless of what it is we choose to do.

[nasigoreng]

It is said that one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Is taking up arms spiritual? Depends which side of that equation you are on. Does it make you a better person? Anything that engages us completely is a transformative experience, which is why the samurai took so readily to Zen, understanding the power of having "one mind." Most modern FMA is taught in a niche of "practicality" but anyone who undertakes a process of change experiences it inwardly as well. The old manongs would sometimes hold their hand over the head of a prospective student to see if they were too "hot-headed" to be trusted with deadly knowledge. They were concerned with the character of their students just as many of us are today.

 Thankyou for broaching the subject of ethics.

 Is measuring the character of the student still a necessity? 

 What ethical considerations are there for teaching (or as Bapak remarked, "selling")  techniques via DVDs?

 The samurai, I understand, practiced zen in the pursuit of dissipating fear and hesitation: In their minds, life and death were one. This world is only transitory and to die in service of their lord was the noblest thing. The kamikaze pilots of WWII carried on this tradition and it is also the tradition (martydom) of our current enemies in the Middle East.

 These mental/spiritual themes are seldom expressed or explored openly in the u.s.  ... are they a necessary component ... if nothing eslse, as a cultural footnote?   

 
 
 

 

 



   
 

[Crafty_Dog]

Have you had a chance to watch "Knife Ruminations" and "Rambling Ruminations"?

[Jeff Gentry]

Have you had a chance to watch "Knife Ruminations" and "Rambling Ruminations"?

Yep as a matter of fact i have and i agree.

Jeff

[Crafty_Dog]

Please forgive the fragmented nature of my posting in fragments, but at the moment it is all I have time to do.
----------

Concerning "selling" techniques to the general public via DVDs, here is my current thinking:

As noted in the two "Rumination" clips, and as discussed in greater detail in the interviews which are included in Disc three of the the "Die Less Often" DVD (the duplication house promises we will have our first ones by August 23rd) I seek to teach in a way that does not give bad guys additional bad ideas, but rather to communicate to what we call "the warriors of the Unorganized Militia" what I understand to be the reality of knife in our culture.  IMHO a substantial portion of the attacks will be of the sort done by criminals/convicts in prison.  That is to say that they will be done with primal killing frenzy with extreme forward pressure and multiple stabs and slashes principally from the forehand side-- the "prison sewing machine".  (Of course there are other kinds of attacks! -- but in DBMA one of our general principles is to seek to deal with primal realities first.)  By my addressing this in the DVD I am not telling criminals something they don't know already!!!  Instread, IMHO I am making a point that many martial art people who train knife defense do not appreciate.  My hope is that by appreciating this point and training with awareness of it with techniques that can work in the adrenal state against serious killing intention, that they will be better prepared to act effectively to defend themselves.

Does this make sense?

Next matter:  I sense in the questioning of the teacher referenced by BataanVet a sense that we lack respect for the Art.  The point is made graciously and with respect and so I am glad to answer.

I would point out our DVD "The Grandfathers Speak" is about allowing people to learn about where the Art came from and about those who brought and bring it to us.  We put a lot of editing into this (translation-- we spent a lot of money to do this right) The 28 minute piece on Manong Giron in particular took a tremendous amount of time and work, but we wanted the story to be told as it deserves to be told.  And now we work on "The Grandfathers Speak 2: Maestro Sonny Umpad".  These DVDs are not big sellers.  They do not make us money.  We lose money on them.  We do them because we are in a position to give back to the Art something (creating a good DVD of this sort of thing) that not many people can do-- and so we do it.

Normally I would not mention this and I do not mention it now to seek applause, but in that the question has been asked, I answer.

My next post on all this will come as I have time.

Time for breakfast and then a full day of teaching/training.  The Adventure continues,
Crafty Dog

[Crafty_Dog]

I will be getting back to this , , ,

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof Nasi et al:

Another random drive-by yip:


There's another strand in the weaving of themes here-- the concepts of the society in which the Art is practiced concerning the proper uses of Aggression. 

 
I am proud to be an American.  Off the top of my head I cannot think of another country which was consciously founded upon a creed.  The American creed of our Founding Fathers is a spiritual one-- the source of the rights of the people is "the Creator", and the people who bequeath the State with powers which they see fit (10th Amendment of the Bill of Rights).  All other rights not enumerated remain retained by the people (9th Amendment)  The term "Creator" is specifically chosen precisely because it is generic.   In their wisdom, IMHO which was guided by the Creator, they made the profound decision to separate Church and State.  Henceforth no religion could seek advantage over another by seizing control of the State for the State itself by definition was to be excluded from the religious realm and religions were to compete with each other with Reason and Persuasion in Peace and not the Sword swung in War.  Heneforth challenges to those in power could not be conflated with being for or against God, but instead were matters to be decided by words freely spoken, whether they offended or not and we the people were trusted to sort it out by freely choosing our representatives.  WE RULE OURSELVES because the Creator made us to be so.

 

I am reminded of the words of Guro Dan Inosanto when he speaks of the martial arts having their true foundation in Love, the belief that we ALL our children of God/the Creator-- or perhaps as some would say, we are but pieces of God and the Life Force within us is God himself-- and that as such we have the right to defend ourselves.  The guiding principle becomes that Moral Force is to be used so as to lessen the overall use of Force against those who act in self-protection.  Respect others as you respect yourself, do not seek to submit them to your way, to take their property by fraud or theft and in general leave them to pursue happiness as they see fit while respecting the rights of others.

 

This right of self-defense (found, I submit, in our 9th Amendment as a right not otherwise enumerated) is given practical meaning by our 2d Amendment, the right OF THE PEOPLE to bear arms.  Whether the defense be against an overbearing State or enemies foreign or domestic, or thug elements does not matter, for we have the right to defend ourselves.

 

That said, the 2d Amendment empowers the Federal government to regulate the militias that will naturally arise from an armed population.  Whether the Federal government exercises that power to regulate the militias or not, the unorganized militia exists.  When not regulated, the militia is called "the unorganized militia" see section 311, Title 10. http://dogbrothers.com/wrapper.php?file=savedbythemilitia.htm and see the clip "The Unorganized Militia" www.dogbrothers.com   (I would add that, speaking as the retired attorney that I am, that it is my considered opinion that the language in the statute setting an upper age limit at 45 years to have been voided by subsequent age discrimination statutes.  In other words, even though I am presently 54 years old, I am still part of the Unorganized Militia!!!)

 

What does this have to do with the original question presented about teaching martial arts? 

 

The answer is that in America, our society is organized around the principal of freedom and responsibility.  As I tell the fighters in my ?magic words? talk at the beginning of each Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack, ?Only you are responsible for you.?  A free people is a people responsible for defending its freedom.  A people that cannot fight and/or lacks the means to fight is not going to stay a free people.



As the gun rights people say, ?Society is safer when criminals don?t know who is armed.?    Understanding ?armed? to mean ?capable of effective action? then the logic of broad dissemination amongst the unorganized militia of fighting knowledge and skills, the logic of sharing through DVDs becomes apparent.

 

This is all I have the time to write at the moment.  The next point I must address in this discussion is the question of what, if anything, NOT to teach, and why.

 

The Adventure continues,

Crafty Dog

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof All:

Because of reflection triggered by the question posed at the beginning of this thread, we are in the process of revamping our application procedures for the DBMA Association.

The Adventure continues,
Guro Crafty
DBIMA

[Kaju Dog]

"Absorb what is useful, disregard that which is useless"

I believe the above quote needs to be pondered deaply....? ?(IMHO) This is a great ideal to have, but be cautious at what level you choose to discard knowlegde you have obtained.? At what level do we feel we are ready to make such decisions?? (Maybe we are just doing it wrong).? Throughout my journey I have often been shown a (T3) "Tool, Tactic or Technique", that seemed useless during my early years.? However, much later I find myself educated with a better understanding of the core or root of the T3.? Patience and keeping an open mind while progresively maturing within the style.? "Never forget your roots".? Respect what has been proven in combat and never rely on "In Theory" knowledge.? Much can be lost in translation and as Crafty has often pointed out, there is much that is held close to heart (By the "Grandfathers") - until one is found worthy of such treasures.?

My humble opinion...? Stay Progressive and Never Forget Your Roots!

V/R? ?