Thrust with a staff/ lack there of

[Jeff Gentry]

Hi folk's

I was in a discussion on another forum about The Dog brother's staff work, the video on the site was linked, and the question came up about why there wasn't much thrusting with the Phillipino staff, now me being a student of Ren./Med. martial art's figured it was there just not used much, other's think it is because it is in effective in a real fight, I have used thrust with success in sparring with our wooden longsword simulator's and padded sparring simulator's which are about the same length and it is used quit frequently in Ren./Med. staff work with 6-7' staff's.

So i am wondering how prevelant thrust are to Phillipino staff work and how often is it used in your fight's, one fight on video doesn't realy tell the whole story and I do not have much if any knowledge of Phillipino staff work.


Jeff 

[C-Kumu Dog]

Hi Jeff, I can't officially answer for any of the Dog Brothers but I have been training with DogZilla and from what he has shown me there are thrusts that can be utilized.? I'm looking forward to trying out what I have learned from DogZilla combined with my prior training in Sibat and see if I can make it work for me.? Should be lots of fun (and lumps and bruises)?

[Guard Dog]

Guro Crafty felt there was enough relevance and usage that he dedicated a part of the Staff DVD to thrusts.  I would definitely check it out too, by far one of my favorite DVD's.

Gruhn

[peregrine]

Guro Crafty felt there was enough relevance and usage that he dedicated a part of the Staff DVD to thrusts.  I would definitely check it out too, by far one of my favorite DVD's.

Gruhn

The staff dvd is one of my favorites, i highly recommend it. It's concepts can be applied to a lot of single stick or blade work as well. I've been using the malayo when i chamber the single stick in my rear hand which can easilly chamber to high krabi or you can step foward into leading with the weapon.

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof Jeff:

Thrusting certainly plays an important role in FMA staff in general and in DBMA staff in particular.

I agree that one fight, or even a couple of fights, is not a sufficient data base from which to draw a conclusion.  That said, in our fights where one or both men have a staff, there has not been much thrusting.  Generally, what seems to happen to thrusts is that the staff gets hit during the thurst, which knocks it badly off-course and momentarily out of control.  Indeed, in my first staff fight when my opponent tried thrusting me, my simultaneous counterstrike disarmed him completely.? (A very cool moment for me-- Just seconds before, a friend in the crowd had just called out "C'mon Marc Denny-- This is your house!" and then bam!)

I began staff fighting towards the end of my fighting days, but my sense of things is that with a bit more time I would have figured out to apply
thrusts on second or third motions of an exchange in fighting just as we do in DBMA training.? Right now I suspect the problem is that people trying for Single Direct Attacks with thrusts.

Staff fights are scary things because the staff is scary powerful and scary deceptive.  I am working on preparing DBMA fighters who will apply further the understandings that I started with. It can be tough finding opponents.

The WMA thing is very interesting.  Some of our Euro members have good background in this and I look forward to the contributions that they will bring to all of this.

Woof,
Guro Crafty

PS:  The thrusts in our aforementioned DBMA Staff DVD are shown more as part of a fighting self-defense structure "Keep the neighborhood Tank Abbot off of you" i.e. a big mean angry fcuk vs. ordinary citizen with a small light staff.

[Jeff Gentry]

Woof Jeff:

Thrusting certainly plays an important role in FMA staff in general and in DBMA staff in particular. 

I agree that one fight, or even a couple of fights, is not a sufficient data base from which to draw a conclusion.  That said, in our fights where one or both men have a staff, there has not been much thrusting.  Generally, what seems to happen to thrusts is that the staff gets hit during the thurst, which knocks it badly off-course and momentarily out of control.  Indeed, in my first staff fight when my opponent tried thrusting me, my simultaneous counterstrike disarmed him completely.  (A very cool moment for me-- Just seconds before, a friend in the crowd had just called out "C'mon Marc Denny-- This is your house!" and then bam!)

I began staff fighting towards the end of my fighting days, but my sense of things is that with a bit more time I would have figured out to apply staffs on second or third motions of an exchange.  Right now I suspect the problem is that people trying for Single Direct Attacks with thrusts.

Staff fights are scary things because the staff is scary powerful and scary deceptive.   I am working on preparing DBMA fighters who will apply further the understandings that I started with.  It can be tough finding opponents.

The WMA thing is very interesting.   Some of our Euro members have good background in this and I look forward to the contributions that they will bring to all of this.

Woof,
Guro Crafty

PS:  The thrusts in our aforementioned DBMA Staff DVD are shown more as part of a fighting self-defense structure "Keep the neighborhood Tank Abbot off of you" i.e. a big mean angry fcuk vs. ordinary citizen with a small light staff. 

Guro Crafty

The Euro.(Med./Ren.) staff's were generaly longer than the one's you use so are somewhat slower, a thrust with a staff is not usualy going to be a fight ender it can setup other thing's which you probably already know.

It has also been my expierence that the staff does get hit alot when used to thrust and foot work become's of the utmost importance  to avoid getting your skull cracked, In our staff work we use a concept/principal called changing through when the staff get's struck, which basicly is just when it is hit you go somewhat soft and just pull around his blow in a small circle and continue on, it is much easier to demo. than describe i know you understand the principal of soft and hard(weak and soft, weak and hard) .


I do appreciate the time.


Jeff 

[Crafty_Dog]

What length are you using?

Where do you place your hands?

[Jeff Gentry]

Hey Guro Crafty

We use 6'-7'  and normaly we hold them with the right hand about 6" from the butt and the left hand about two feet in front of the right hand, this will vary though in a fight.

Jeff

[Crafty_Dog]

Is this due to a spear-based history of the method?

[Jeff Gentry]

Is this due to a spear-based history of the method?

Hey Guro Crafty

I see alot of thrusting with most European weapon's, I have spent a majority of my time on Longsword(hand and a half sword) and surprisingly there is also alot of thrusting in the German system with that weapon also when, I think it is mainly due to the fact that it is easy to threaten with a thrust, and the thrusrt is also faster.

There are a few old manuscript's though that say the staff and spear is the ultimate weapon so it could very well be due to the fact that the spear was so prevelant on the battle field.

Jeff

[C-Kumu Dog]

Since we are talking about Staff... I was wondering....

Guro Crafty, have you ever come across any training with the Maori (New Zealand) weapon the Taiaha?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofybOAqLWZM

A Taiaha (pronounced Tie-ah-ha) is a weapon of the Maori of New Zealand.

The taiaha is a wooden weapon, usually between 5-6 ft in length. It is designed to be used as a close quarters weapon for short sharp strikes, or stabbing thrusts somewhat like the quarterstaff and many similar stick fighting weapons. However unlike those pole-like weapons, one end of the taiaha is flattened to a broad blade, and the other narrows to a point with a carved face defiantly sticking out its tongue.

Mau rakau is the martial art that teaches the use of the taiaha and other Maori weapons in combat. As with other martial arts styles, students of the taiaha spends years mastering the skills of timing, balance and co-ordination necessary to wield the weapon effectively.

The taiaha is well known due to its use in the challenge (Wero)[1] given to heads of state and visiting dignitaries welcomed to New Zealand. Tradition says that when a visiting party approached a Maori Pa (homestead/village) they would be challenged by a warrior with a taiaha to see if they were friend or foe.

Among modern Maori the taiaha is one of many cultural items which are used to introduce youngsters in school to some of the traditional ways. Contests and competitions take place with schools fielding teams not for fights or matches but as "dance" or ritual.

The New Zealand Army now incorporates the image of a taiaha into its official badge.

The taiaha was also featured in two video games for the PlayStation 2, The Mark of Kri and its sequel Rise of the Kasai as a weapon for the games' hero, Rau. In "The Mark of Kri", the taiaha is plunged into the ground, however, in Maori culture, this is an offense as is it considered to be stabbing the earth mother.