June 2007 Gathering

[Tom Stillman]

 Also: On the subject of boundaries.  I think that boundary lines made up of heavy punching bags and/or rolled up  mats placed (end to end) would work well.  Placed in a manner that would trip up the fighters and also provide a safe soft landing would be great. It also provides a good buffer zone free of unknown objects such as glass bottles and the like. It would also  give the spectators some measure of protection against fighters crashing into them. Even though it is understood that spectators enter at their own risk, I am sure we would all feel terrible if someone were to become seriously injured be it a fighter or spectator/children.     

[Guard Dog]

This raises a good question:

Are children going to be allowed to come to this?  Will OP allow it?

Gruhn

[Tom Stillman]

Food for thought.

[Scotty Dog]

I'm looking forward to this more & more 

How many fighters have registered now?

Are there any other female fighters or is it still just Lynne from the UK ? 

[Crafty_Dog]

I just clicked on the registered fighters list and count 40.

At the moment Lynn is the only woman.  If you think she's up for it and up to it, we'll let her do knife with the men.

With any luck, the deal with OP/Nat Geo signs tomorrow.

[Howling Dog]

Woof, As Tom pointed out in his wiki. link El Cajon is near San Diego, I also know of a SanTee in the San Diego area.  Not to say there isn't two?
                                                Dog SB/Tom

[Tom Stillman]

Woof Crafty,  Go ahead and make it 41 fighters. My fighters registration form will be in the mail box tonight!   That just sent a shiver up my spine that I have not felt in a long time. 

[Howling Dog]

Woof Tom, As they say in poker......ALL IN!!
Exciting eh?   Its good to be alive and living.......
                                                                 Dog TG/SB

[C-Kumu Dog]

Thanks to the both of you Toms!  I was born in that area but my parents moved to Illinois so I was thinking about checking that area out if we had the time.

[Tom Stillman]

Yeah, thats the feeling.  It's a good thing.

[lynnb]

Good news that I'll at least get to do knife if no other women register (assuming Hig thinks I'm up to the job!).
Still holding out hope for another female to fight with sticks though...

[Scotty Dog]

I know better than to say your not up to the job Lynn 

[JDN]

I have no doubt that Lynn is "up for the job".  In a real knife fight,
where strength and power are not as relevent as speed and
ability, Lynn might be able to take on all comers.  I don't know
the answer, each "solution" creates new problems, but to watch
people continue to kick their opponent when in a true knife fight they
wouldn't have a leg left, or they close and push and punch or actually
do a takedown after their arms, legs, neck etc. has been cut to ribbons
turns these fights into boxing/wrestling matches.  Unfortunately,
Lynn, or anyone slightly built is at a disadvantage at a Gathering,
yet in reality, the slightly built person has an advantage using the knife.
Perhaps in stick "grappling happens" although I wonder without a helmet
how many takedowns there would, but a knife is fatal - you don't charge
and take cut after cut and keep kicking and continue to close.  You're dead.

It is too bad good, subtle, deceptive and fast knife work cannot be rewarded.
Instead, the opponent after they are supposedly dead or disabled continues or initiates
physical harm through greater size or strength and is often is looked upon as the "winner". 
That is not reality.   Change the rules?
james

[Crafty_Dog]

This has been a perennial struggle in our knife fighting.  Indeed this issue drove the push to aluminum blades and drives the push to the Shocknife.

I'm not really sure how to resolve it-- but I will note that Linda of the Bay Area clan (Baltic Dog's crew) had an outstanding knife fight against a man a few years back which is like to appear in our upcoming DBMA DVD "Die Less Often Volume 2" -- so it certainly can be done.

[Crafty_Dog]

The deal should be signed tomorrow or Wednesday to make everything firm and final, but at the moment we have a verbal agreement.

Assuming all goes as planned, the location is this:

Location:  2435 N. Naomi St. Burbank, CA 91504  (park on lot off  Burton Ave)

[Kaju Dog]

I have no doubt that Lynn is "up for the job".  In a real knife fight,
where strength and power are not as relevent as speed and
ability, Lynn might be able to take on all comers.  I don't know
the answer, each "solution" creates new problems, but to watch
people continue to kick their opponent when in a true knife fight they
wouldn't have a leg left, or they close and push and punch or actually
do a takedown after their arms, legs, neck etc. has been cut to ribbons
turns these fights into boxing/wrestling matches.  Unfortunately,
Lynn, or anyone slightly built is at a disadvantage at a Gathering,
yet in reality, the slightly built person has an advantage using the knife.
Perhaps in stick "grappling happens" although I wonder without a helmet
how many takedowns there would, but a knife is fatal - you don't charge
and take cut after cut and keep kicking and continue to close.  You're dead.

It is too bad good, subtle, deceptive and fast knife work cannot be rewarded.
Instead, the opponent after they are supposedly dead or disabled continues or initiates
physical harm through greater size or strength and is often is looked upon as the "winner". 
That is not reality.   Change the rules?
james

I agree with all of your points here JDN.  We've all seen and most study actual knife encounter clips (or should).  The fights that show repeated stabs  are often done by an attacker that has no clue about hitting the "V" spot (Vital insertion/slash).  I have gone back and forth with wooden knives, aluminum, hard/soft rubber training blades.  I always end up comming back to chalking the blades with two different colors and calling the fight after a quick engagement.  I like to assess the cuts and the one who has made the most vital or life threatening injury wins.  Sometimes I will let the fight continue on if there are no serious stabs or slashes (taking into consideration length of blade, size of player, location of injury)  Its good to have someone with a good sense of anatomy or medical training on hand that can do the assessment with a sense of what the real deal would have done. 

I have seen some nasty wounds and some minor incidents that caused serious long term damage.  (ie.  I have seen cuts to the tendons on the back of hand from breaking a window with a rifle that ended up causing the loss of gripping function in the hand for a long time.  I have seen men shot that just wanted to keep engaged in the fight. *situational)

If the fight continues after a non-life threatening injury, then I will add some restrictions that come into play.  Ie EBL (estimated blood loss), level of shock, airway compromise /SCW, loss of function in a limb, etc.)  These things need to be considered in keeping the play as real as possible.  I have grown to like the training blades that tend to get caught up on clothing (stick or catch), this causes the players to learn to keep a firm grip of the blade so they dont drop it when it hangs up on a jacket or pant leg, etc.

Anyway - gotta go - on the move again....

 

[maija]

This whole question of how to add a realistic sparring component to blade training has always interested me. being faced with a live blade is a WHOLE different ball game from ANY kind of training blade... though the shock knife is a neat idea.
Could we start a new thread on this topic? I would be very interested in comparing ideas about this.

[Crafty_Dog]

Maija:

Go for it!

CD

[Crafty_Dog]

Tom Stillman just mentioned in the DB in the media thread that he will be bringing a "swing blade", and C-Cyborg (no current internet access) has asked me to post that he has a whip which he would like to try.  Post here if you are interested.

Any other off the beaten path items we will be seeing?

[Tom Stillman]

Woof all, as Marc mentioned,  This June during the warm up fights,  I am going to introduce a swing knife which is  a wood dowel (representing a knife) connected to a  teather that wraps around the wrist and swings out like a nunchaku. It should be fun.     Also: I have some concerns about the knife fighting warm up's. It seems to me that many of the fighters are doing alot of crashing and  kicking during these "warm up fights" Although many people have different ideas of how a real knife fight scenario unfolds, my concern is that if I sustain an injury that keeps me from participating in a day of stick fighting, I will be really bummed. (very disapointed)  I think that these gatherings have atracted many serious knife fighters with something to prove which is a great thing except for the fact that the knife fights here are used as a warm up exercise before a day of hardcore stick fighting. I am sure I can find someone to knife fight with who has the same concerns as myself.   P.S.  I am also looking for someone to fight me against my single/double nunchaku. Size and weight not a concern to me.  I am 47 yr's old 6'5" 225 lbs. The nunchaku I use are rattan and very light weight so you can take a shot and not wory as much about serious injury. Anyone interested please post here.  TS

[C-Kumu Dog]

Hmmmmmmm Im contemplating the idea Tom (nunchaku vs stick )... this is going to be my first time at a gathering.  Might as well make it as memorable as possible right? 

[Tom Stillman]

That's the spirit!   

[Howling Dog]

Woof, I thought that at last Junes gatheering some of the knife fights got a little out of control, as far as reality was concerned.
It is easier said than done, but may I suggest that before the knife fights start, it is expressed by Guro Crafty(maybe a little knife reality talk to put it in perspective), that we want to take a realsitic approach towards the knife fights, and that control is expressed in the fight, not so much to make it a knife spar, but to take into consideration the finality of what we are about to make play and the seriousness  of the event in terms of a real life knife fight and the fighters take this into consideration as they approach their fight. Not onley that but have the presence of mind to acknowledge a good hit by their opponent.
 Just my thought.......
                                                                Dog Tom

[Crafty_Dog]

"some of the knife fights got a little out of control"

Now that's an understatement!!!  I would say that out of all the fights only a handful of times did we see a fighter not get "killed"-- usually several times.

Maybe its time to pull out my old trick of waving a live blade around the faces of the fighters during the Magic Words Talk.

[Cyborg Dog]

Now that I can get to the internet for the evening. I'll just reiterate what guro crafty said earlier. I want to see if anyone would be intrested in fighting against a whip.


C-Cyborg

[C-Kumu Dog]

What would the rules be? Would it be the same as when Top Dog fought the guy with the Bull Whip? As soon as the gap is closed the match is over? Do you go to the ground? Would you have a knife in the "back pocket?"

[Crafty_Dog]

For the record, the reason that TD and the whip man agreed to stop when the gap was closed was that the whip man simply was not competitive with TD.

OTOH my sense of C-Cyborg is that his competence is , , , quite sound. 

Changing subjects, Dan Jackson is offering the possiblity of an 8 foot high wall 20 feet long on the north side of the fight area made out of studs and plywood.  Comments?

[Tom Stillman]

Woof C-Cyborg Dog, What type of whip and how long? Have you ever used it in a real or play fight? If so, what was the outcome? P.S. If I do it it will have to be toward the end of the day.(In case of fight stopping injuries) See you there Bro!  TS

[Cyborg Dog]

The way I was thinking was that the fight would keep right on going. I won't rule out a knife in the pocket.

It would be a 6ft bull whip. I have fought once before whip vs whip with 4ft whips and it was a learning experiance thats for sure.

[C-Kumu Dog]

Im interested in the idea but again since this is my first gathering I dont want to out do myself so to speak... ya know? Kinda like my "eyes are bigger than my stomach" kinda thing.  What I have in mind is to come down "whoop and get whooped" learn from it and be a better fighter at each gathering.

Guro Crafty, Im all for the wall. 

[Tom Stillman]

Do the wall. If it was'nt for the back drop issues(for filming) I would say tag it with some graffitti just to give it that down home feel. LOL 

[danjack]

I'm the producer who did the Original Promo at a Gathering a few years back, and who will be producing a longer version at the June Gathering that will air on the National Geographic Channel. For a variety of logistical reasons, the June Gathering will be held at a new location, 2435 N. Naomi St. Burbank, CA 91504. The space, which measures roughly 110' by 65' is a warehouse typically used as a shop for working on cars. We're going to clear it out and lay down a 40' x 30' wrestling mat in the center. Which means you'll be fighting in space surrounded (potentially) on all sides by spectators.

Crafty has asked me to get your input on a few elements we have some control over. On either side of mat, along the 40' length, spaced at 20' intervals, are two 4x4 posts that hold up the ceiling. We're going to find some way to pad these posts. One option we have is to build a 6' wall between two of them. Which would mean on one side, you'd have a 20' wall to crash into. Is this desirable? The alternative is spectators all around.

Thoughts? Comments? Concerns?

Dan

[Guard Dog]

Hey Dan!
 Regrettably, I will not be making this Gathering.   I do however have some ideas that I think would lend well to the fights and the over all aesthetics of the environment.  The idea of a wall is perfect but putting a large garage door in the middle of the wall would be killer!  To help sell you on the idea, imagine it to be an awesome way to open a scene:

(garage door opens) - fighters inside ready to fight . . . .
(garage doog closes) - fights begin.

side-note:  Every gathering I have been to this really adds to the concept.  Kind of like shutting the octagon door at UFC.  Once the door is closed, the fights begin and there is no turning back.

Not to mention how much of an effect it has when people go crashing into it!  Sticks smacking it, etc.  I think this has been some of the biggest crowed pleaser in previous gatherings that I have attended. 

The second thought that I had was that the gathering for the Reality Show Promo had the view of over top which was really cool.  Is there any way to give spectators the same type of angle?  Maybe rafters or scaffolding?

Gruhn

[Tom Stillman]

Interesting idea.  Kind of borrowing from monster garage and also remanisent of the  Raw Gym warehouse doors. Maybe one could utilize the existing warehouse doors to achieve the previous mentioned idea. Possibly a stageing tent of sorts just outside the door? That way you could create a dark non defined background when fighters enter through the doors instead of cars in parking lot etc. How about some colored lights in the stageing area to give it a mood. Sort of like the rapidly moveing colored lights during the stageing of the old U.F.C. fights 2+3. or strobe lights.  What is O/P trying to achieve exactly. Are they looking to keep a modest real feel to this or maybe a more smoke and mirrors effect? (for lack of a better term)   I think the previous idea is a winner!  IMHO

[Crafty_Dog]

Gentlemen:

I think the idea here is to be ourselves.

The rolling loading dock door at RAW/R1 was there because that's what the place used to be.

Right now what interests me is getting our sense of the fight area, its boundaries, seating and things like that.

Dan, I may have located access to several folding wrestling/gymnastic pads of the type seen in the background of our "Snaggletooth Variations" promo clip on the front page here at www.dogbrothers.com at 1:07 and forward.  I can picture laying this down just outside of the perimeter of the wrestling mat that will be used for the fight area itself (How goes the search for the one we will be using.  Each one will only be a foot or two high.  If the fight crashes onto them, most likely most of the fighters will fall onto them , , ,

TAC,
CD

[Tom Stillman]

Woof Crafty, Sorry I got a little carried away there. It sounded like a good idea at the time!   I guess you just have to be real and  put it out there for better or for worse. What ever the case may be , I'm sure I speak for most if not all of the fighters when I say, We trust in your judgement all the way!   TS

[Crafty_Dog]

Thank you for that Tom-- and my judgement is that things like this go best when the Tribe is consulted 

Changing subjects-- good news!  Jeff Quail of Shocknife has promised us two of the new model of his Shocknife 

TAC!
CD

[Howling Dog]

Woof Danjack, I'am one of the fighters at the upcomming gathering that you will be producing.  I have heard through the grapevine that there is going to be a no camera rule for this gathering.
Is this going to be no camera, no way, no how, period?
One thing we like to do and have done in the past is take pictuers of each other in the end....you know friends, comrades and fellow tribe memebers....that kind of stuff. Kinda like a big group hug
It is my hope there will be some flexibilty to the no camera rule?
Can we talk about this?
                                                                        Dog Tom

[Dog Pound]

I agree with Tom regarding pictures afterward the Gathering.

Great news on the two shock knives.

I like the idea of folding mats around the ritual space.

[Crafty_Dog]

I've brought up the subject of cameras with Dan, who has kicked it up the food chain to Thom Beers.  It is a holiday weekend, so no surprise that we have not heard back from TB yet.  With any luck we will get a ruling from him tomorrow.

Also, in case I didn't mention it, Dan says that they are working on providing some sort of temporary AC 

[Crafty_Dog]

Thom has emailed me that regular cameras are OK!!! 

[sting]

Thom has emailed me that regular cameras are OK!!! 

Woof Crafty,

What's a regular camera?  I'm planning to bring Indris down to provide the same photo coverage as in years before.  That requires a "special" or irregular camera, as in a top of the line Nikon professional camera.

Please keep us updated,

Gints

[Tom Stillman]

Woof Crafty,  Just curious if you recieved my fighter registration form?   Also: Good to see Dogzilla will be participating this gathering!  TS

[Crafty_Dog]

Baltic Dog:

I will be discussing the matter of Idris with Thom Beers tomorrow.

Tom S.

That is a reality question.  Check with VP of Reality Cindy at info@dogbrothers.com 310-540-6853

TAC!
CD

[danjack]

Regarding cameras, still cameras (regular or not) are fine. No videotaping. Same as always.

Regarding the space, my question boils down to do you want a 20' wall to crash into or not? This area does not have walls on two sides, as did RAW. It's wide open. If the concensus is to add a wall, we'll build one.

Regarding the "look", the goal is to keep it honest and real. No smoke, no mirrors, no flashing lights (though I do have a disco ball I  could hang).

Dan

[C-Kumu Dog]

I vote for a wall but I think Im in the minority.

[Dog Pound]

Crafty and Dan

As for walls ... it's always fun to drive someone into a wall and crush the breath out of them, but it would also cut down on standing/sitting room for viewing the fights.

My $.02 is don't build a wall.

[SB_Mig]

I vote "No Wall"

[Sheep Dog]

I am a fan of walls, I guess I like the idea that walls exist in the "real" world. It's always fun to fight against the wall, or to drive someone into it, and of course it makes for better flying attacks 

C-Sheepdog

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman : http://hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html

[Howling Dog]

Woof, I remmember on a tape hearing(origanl grandfathers speak?)Top Dog talk of the old days in the Philippines where they would line the fighting area with bolos pointing in towards the fighters....keeping them inside the fight area....could we do that?
JUST KIDDING of course.
Though in the same spirit I vote NO WALL and let the spectators  en-circle the mats......gets my motor running....
                                                                     Dog Tom