sean sherk vs. bj penn

[Howling Dog]

Woof, A couple of weeks to go before this match up, I thought I would start this thread for fun, and some serious conversation.
Like I stated in a previius thread, Fighters with a core background in WRESTLING have done quite well in the ufc.
Some would dispute that and insist that the reason why Wrestlers have done so well is because the also trained bjj. Of course I disagree

However I think the fight between Sherk and Penn will be a good example of Wrestler vs. Jits guy.

Make no mistake I love Bjj Penn.....hes one of my favorite fighters, and without a doubt very very talented.
However Sean sherk is a beast, and a tremendous ground and pounder.......he will just flat out wear your ass out. Where he lacks in talent as a fighter he makes up for with conditioning and drive.

In my opinon I give the skills aspect to Penn, but if Sherk can take it into the later rounds the advantage switches to him.......
Wrestler vs. BJJ guy.......Lets talk smack Anyone want to flat out pick BJ PENN?
                                                                       TG

[Maxx]

Sean Sherk is a awesome fighter but BJ Penn is off the hook as well. I am gonna go with Tank Abbot on this one LOL!   

[Guide Dog]

I am a little biased towards Sherk, only because his coach, Greg Nelson, is one of the nicest, most inspirational, most gifted martial artists I have ever met.  Aside from that, my only prediction is a good fight between both men.  I have no interest in getting involved in a BJJ vs. wrestling debate.  Both have their merits. 

[Howling Dog]

Guide dog, I can appreciate you not wanting to debate Bjj vs. Wrestling. However I think much can be learned and realized withA healthy, hearty discussion.
I will sometimes play devils advocate just to provoke discussion. I'am not looking for argument by any means.
But this is a classic match up.....
I'am really looking forward to this fight!
                                                                       TG

[Crafty_Dog]

BJ's separatist BS for Hawaii irks me 

[Guard Dog]

Speaking of Greg I had my fighters work some of his combos tonight:

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=9P5MbvNIq88[/youtube]

[peregrine]

I'm voting for BJ. of course

Sherk is a machine(one of the highest compliments in my book), but BJ imho is a 'phenom.'  & Like Roy Jones Jr. lives for fighting. If he brings the gas he will win.
I got to meet Greg Nelson shortly before the last Gathering in a short seminar. Really great guy and i love his methods/clinch.

[Jeff Rockwell]

I can almost feel the hook sinking into my lip.

I had a great time training with Greg Nelson at a Pedro Sauer BJJ camp a few years ago.  Greg is a BJJ black belt under Pedro, and showed us a lot of cool tricks.  One thing I found interesting was that during one conversation, Greg really stressed how important training with the gi was for MMA fighters.  He had just gotten back from Japan after cornering Sean for a Pride event (one of the Bushidos, I think).  He said he spent a long time talking with the head coach for Chute Boxe, Rudimar Fedrigo; Rudimar made a point to say how all his guys train with the gi and how important he thinks it is for their technical development.  I'm not sure how much time Sean puts in with the gi these days, but he holds a brown belt, for whatever that is worth.

I'm with peregrine, if BJ comes in shape and a little pissed off, he will win.  But both guys are great, well-rounded fighters and it is going to be fun to watch no matter what.  I think the last pure Wrestling vs. BJJ fight we'll ever see was probably Severn vs. Gracie.

[Howling Dog]

Well.....Its probably just me....but I would be intrested in hearing why GI training was so important in mma....esp since pretty much all mma has gone GI-less.
Speaking of Chute box......has anyone ever seen Vanderila(sp) Silva submit someone?

I'am wondering if the Sherk -Penn fight will end up like the Hughes- Gracie fight........

I still haven't figured out how MH totally dominated the Great Joyce Gracie beat him at his own game...took his back and punched his eyes out.
Surley no one would argue that MH Bjj skills are any where near Royces....but yet..... How did this happen?

Jeff the thing that gets me about you.....is how you seem to attribute any wrestlers success in mma to the fact that they trained in BJJ. I think thats BS......If Sherk double legs Penn and sits on his chest and punches his eyes closed BJJ will have nothing to do with it.....and by the way.....I don't think Sherk can Submit Penn.

My opinion on the sherk -Penn fight is that, Bj Penn is a more skilled fighter, Sherk is a monster mauler and a cardio machine that I attribute to his wrestling background......
The same with all the wrestlers that I named in the previous thread......its the past training in wrestling thats carried them and taught them what being in shape is really like.
Crafty elluded to this in a previous post(and got jumped for telling the truth).......Unless you've been there I don't think you can fully understand it.
                                                                     Dog SB

[Guard Dog]

I know we are talking about MMA but thought this comment would be appropriate on this forum.  Personally, my Gi training really helped me with the April gathering.  Being able to grab onto someones jeans, shirt, shoes, gloves, etc. gave me some great points of control.

[Jeff Rockwell]

Well.....Its probably just me....but I would be intrested in hearing why GI training was so important in mma....esp since pretty much all mma has gone GI-less.

The usual explanation is that is makes both positonal and submission escapes much more difficult, so your escapes are forced to become more technical.  Also, you can be off-balanced and swept much easier with the gi, so your base and balance are forced to improve.  But you'd have to ask Greg and Rudimar for more specifics, I'm just repeating what I heard. 

has anyone ever seen Vanderila(sp) Silva submit someone?

Yes, he's ended a number of fights with RNC's in Pride.  His famous stablemates, Shogun and Ninja Rua have also won fights via submission.  You can probably find examples on Youtube or Dailymotion.

I still haven't figured out how MH totally dominated the Great Joyce Gracie beat him at his own game...took his back and punched his eyes out.
Surley no one would argue that MH Bjj skills are any where near Royces....but yet..... How did this happen?

No one in their right mind would think that a matchup between Matt Hughes in his prime and an over the hill Royce Gracie is either a fair fight or a indicator of the effectiveness of either of their styles.  Royce had no business being in the ring with Matt, and that was painfully obvious from the opening bell.  Royce was outclassed and overpowered in every range.

"Jeff the thing that gets me about you.....is how you seem to attribute any wrestlers success in mma to the fact that they trained in BJJ."

I hate to get under your skin, but you are right in that I don't think these wrestlers would have the same kind of success if they did not train BJJ or a similar high level submission style.  Is that really up for debate?  In 2008?  If you took them straight from college or even Olympic wrestling, they could do very well up to a certain point, then they would start getting submitted.  (See Lindland vs. Bustamante, Couture vs. Inoue, Jackson vs. Shamrock, etc.)  It's not my opinion, it's what we've seen happen over the last 10 years.  Then these very talented wrestlers actually put serious time training in these other arts, then they truly become a force at the highest levels.

What I don't get is why you seem out to make a point as to the superiority of "your" style, wrestling.  It is a fantastic style, with great training methods, which attracts and builds very tough, conditioned, skilled athletes.  No one is disputing this.  You are kind of arguing with yourself on this one.

It's cool, dude - you like "monster maulers", I like "skilled fighters".  Our backgrounds and our personalities generally dictate the styles we admire and emulate.  We can argue which is better, but I'd rather just sit back and enjoy.  We really can all just get along.

WAR BJ!

[Jonobos]

Jeff the thing that gets me about you.....is how you seem to attribute any wrestlers success in mma to the fact that they trained in BJJ. I think thats BS......If Sherk double legs Penn and sits on his chest and punches his eyes closed BJJ will have nothing to do with it.....and by the way.....I don't think Sherk can Submit Penn.

Tom, the thing that gets me about you... is how you seem to attribute any wrestlers success in mma to the fact that they have trained in wrestling. I think thats BS. It is a combination of many things that makes someone a champ. Every example of a wrestler you gave in the other thread was countered by an example of the opposite. Hendo's wrestling and ground+pound did absolutely jack for him against Anderson Silva. What about Lesner? Didn't help him to much did it?

This is a stupid argument. I used to look for "the best" martial art when I was 16. Now I know better. No one will ever counter another 100% of the time no matter how much of a fanboy you are of that art.

I guess what I am saying is that wrestling is NOT the key any more than striking is the key... any more than BJJ is the key. Not so long ago we spent some time training wrestling solutions in Jeffs class. I gave them a shot, and as of yet none have worked for me. Other wrestling moves have worked, and continue to work for me. It is about the person. "Find what is useful, and leave the rest behind" and all that. If you like wrestling then do it. Don't train BJJ. No one is forcing you to do it. This wrestling vs BJJ argument is something I would have had when I was 16. Like Jeff said, you are arguing with yourself. No one here is talking trash on wrestling. Everyone admits how useful it is, and that it produces great fighters. So all of us having admitted that we can now stop having this discussion.

Jon

[Howling Dog]

Yes, he's ended a number of fights with RNC's in Pride

Actually Wand did submit 1 guy with a rnc....I just looked up his record.

So you attributing the Matt Hughes win over Royce, to age? MH was 33 and Royce was 39
You say he beat him at every range.......The onley range I remember was Royce on his back.
The thing is where were all those magical skills? Royce put up absoultly no fight whatsoever...probalby one of Matt Hughes easiest fights.

I hate to get under your skin, but you are right in that I don't think these wrestlers would have the same kind of success if they did not train BJJ or a similar high level submission style.  Is that really up for debate?  In 2008?

I think the thing that makes the argument valid is when a highley tauted black belt in BJJ gets beat by a lesser ranked(bjj belt).....wrestler.

How does this happen skills wise?

You take all these weslers and point out they have brown , blue, purple belts...ect and yet they end up beating black belts on the ground.
To me that just dose'nt equate.
A good example is Bj Penn.......He's got great BJJ skills and as far as that goes......I won't even argue Sherk to be in his class as far as submissons go.........So does that mean Penn beats Sherk on the ground?

By rights it should.....yes? At least to your way of thinking? yep even in 2008.....  I'am by no means saying that Wrestling is better than Bjj.
My argument all along has been.......I would rather take a wrestler(core) and teach him a few submissions and go wqith that.
Than take a BJJ Black belt or whatever with no wrestling background......
                                                             Dog TG

[Jonobos]

..So does that mean Penn beats Sherk on the ground?

By rights it should.....yes? At least to your way of thinking?

Where in the hell did anyone make that claim? No one said anything of the sort.

You are attacking a strawman.

[Howling Dog]

Jon, I will stop having this discussion when you can tell me how a blue blet, beats a highley touted Blackbelt, in a ground game....in mma?
Example being Matt Serra losing to  Georges st. Pierre........on the ground.
Many more, look at my list on the ufc 83 thread.

Where in the hell did anyone make that claim? No one said anything of the sort.

Well then Jon, is spending all those years Learning all that BJJ really worth the time and investment?

Or are BJJ black belts over rated?
                        

[Guard Dog]

You need to step back and take a look at the entire picture with every fight.  "Situational Change Variables" come into play with everything.  I could go on to using the example of the 1st Matt S. vs. GSP as BJJ beating GSP but that simply isn't the case.  GSP admits he didn't train the way he should have and underestimated Serra.  My point being that if a fighter is disrupted from any number of reasons it can throw off their game, wrestler or BJJ'er.  Additionally, no fighter is ever the same in every fight.  More fighters than not that have continued to fight past their prime become "has beens."  Royce, Ken S., and now what I am seeing with a few Pride/UFC fighters who have fought past their prime are starting on their way down.  Whether it's because the newer fighters are better or because the "has been" fighter is out of shape, not training right, etc.  Step back and look past the styles.

[Jonobos]

Jon, I will stop having this discussion when you can tell me how a blue blet, beats a highley touted Blackbelt, in a ground game....in mma?
Example being Matt Serra losing to  Georges st. Pierre........on the ground.
Many more, look at my list on the ufc 83 thread.

Where in the hell did anyone make that claim? No one said anything of the sort.

Well then Jon, is spending all those years Learning all that BJJ really worth the time and investment?

Or are BJJ black belts over rated?
                        

You will never stop having this argument because you will not look beyond Wrestling vs BJJ. This is what the rest of us are saying. Simple style vs style matchups are a thing of the past. Everyone trains everything now, because that is what the sport demands. How did a BJJ guy beat Hendo? How did a BJJ guy beat Lesner? You are acting like this is a one way street, and all we see are wrestlers beating bjj guys... that is simply not true, and you know it! The truth is that there are many other factors besides what type of grappling they are better trained in.

Again, read what the rest of us are saying. We are not in any way down playing the importance of wrestling. We are simply saying that it is not the end all be all, and that there are many other factors involved.

[Howling Dog]

I understand what your saying. You would be right to not use Matt Serra's win over GSP as an example of Bjj wining.
However I have never used my examples out of context like your implying.

I just need to know why, a Balck belt in BJJ Loses to a lesser ranked BJJ belt in the context of a grappling type match.....just as in Matt Hughes and Royce Gracie.
The same goes for GSP and MS fIGHT 2.

If a heavy punch lands and hurts the fighter that makes all the difference in the world.
Again Ive kept my examples in context.......I beleive in playing fairly

Jon, tell me something about your training..... Like what you train in how long ect......I'am just curious.
Also,I f you could onley train one art what would it be?
                                                                    TG

If you talking about Anderson Silva beating  Hendo........Uh strikes won tht fight. Do you remember the 1st round? Hendo totally dominated that round.....on the ground.

Again Jon, I have always kept my argument in context.

[Crafty_Dog]

"The man is more important than the style."  Bruce Lee

[Jonobos]

I understand what your saying. You would be right to not use Matt Serra's win over GSP as an example of Bjj wining.
However I have never used my examples out of context like your implying.

I just need to know why, a Balck belt in BJJ Loses to a lesser ranked BJJ belt in the context of a grappling type match.....just as in Matt Hughes and Royce Gracie.
The same goes for GSP and MS fIGHT 2.

If a heavy punch lands and hurts the fighter that makes all the difference in the world.
Again Ive kept my examples in context.......I beleive in playing fairly

Jon, tell me something about your training..... Like what you train in how long ect......I'am just curious.
Also,I f you could onley train one art what would it be?
                                                                    TG

If you talking about Anderson Silva beating  Hendo........Uh strikes won tht fight. Do you remember the 1st round? Hendo totally dominated that round.....on the ground.

Again Jon, I have always kept my argument in context.

How did strikes win that fight? Hendo was submitted with a RNC. I would say that Hendo's strikes were pretty weak in general. Silva controlled him to much.

Now, as far as I know striking has nothing to do with either BJJ, or Wrestling. So you can't bring strikes into the fray unless you are willing to admit that there are other factors than BJJ vs Wrestling... which is exactly my point. There are other factors.

So to answer your questions:

1. A lesser belt can win because he has more training in a more diverse set of grappling arts (including wrestling, no one is debating this.) You can throw strikes in to the mix. You can consider age, who trained harder, any sort of adversity going on in a fighters personal life. There are soooooo many factors involved that boiling any fight down to simply wrestling vs bjj is short sighted in the extreme. Wrestling and BJJ have entirely different goals anyway. I am not even sure it is possible to compare them. As far as the gracies being beaten... its nothing new. There were people long before the american wrestlers to blaze that trail.

2. I have 2 years of kali (the first was many years ago so I hesitate to count it) one under Sifu Bill Gebhardt, and more recently under Dog Ryan Gruhn. I also now have a year in BJJ under Jeff Rockwell. I spent 2.5 years training Aikido. I would be hard pressed to choose one Art. They all have much to offer. I try and learn a little something from anyone that will teach me

So who will win? I don't know. I like them both so have a hard time picking one to root for. I really liked both Hendo and Silva but one of them had to lose. If BJ comes out looking as good as he did in his last fight I think he will take it.

[Howling Dog]

Hey, before everyone gets too serious. I'am just having fun here.
Strikes won the Silva vs. Hendo fight in that Hendo was beaten to the ground by strikes unable to recover enough and yes submitted by RNC.

"The man is more important than the style."  Bruce Lee

Does the style make the man?
Not everyone can fight in a Dog Brothers gathering after all. Nor can everyone wrestle

I try and learn a little something from anyone that will teach me 

You said well.........Thats why I like the DBMA......Its very well rounded, with a little of everything.
Whiich has been one of my points all along.
I don't think it neccassary to be a BJJ black belt to be a well rounded fighter......so why spend all the time and effort...... after all as I've said before esp in the conteext of mma, you onley see 3-4 baisc submissions.
Yet watching Hendo hold down Anderson Silva is telling.....and yes Hendo did get his ass kicked.
                                                             Dog SB

[Jeff Rockwell]

Crafty is wise.

[Guard Dog]

Crafty is wise.

I'll second that 

Along the same lines , a fighter was onced asked the question we are debating here:  "Who wins?  The BJJ guy or the Wrestler?"

He replied with . . . "The wrestler/BJJ'er who knows BJJ/Wrestling." 

For that very reason we can't accuratly debate this nowadays without having a true wrestler vs. true BJJ'er fight.  We can't find them anymore because both wrestlers and BJJ'ers see value in their respective art.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=gANq4Kba1pM[/youtube]

[Howling Dog]

Gruhn,

For that very reason we can't accuratly debate this nowadays without having a true wrestler vs. true BJJ'er fight.  We can't find them anymore because both wrestlers and BJJ'ers see value in their respective art.

So how much pure wrestling do you have?

I would venture, that possibly more wrestlers are willing to learn BJJ than BJJ guys are willing to learn wrestling. Why?
Imho its the "Gracie superiorty complex" they think their grappling skills suffice against wrestlers.
This I would disagree with. Some of this comes from the physicality of the wrestler.
I would however agree from a pureists context that BJJ ugys would have advantage in submissions.
Although there are wrestling holds that can inflict a lot of pain(not necassarily subbmission).

There again from an argumentitve stand point....the wrestler has advantage....IE: Gracie vs. Hughes


Back to the thread......I would not be suprised to see BJ Penn attempt to fight Sean Sherk on his feet.
I'am not convinced Bj Penn can beat Sherk on the ground.
Stand up......I think Penn wins this game.
                                                                 TG

[Crafty_Dog]

Tangent re the Matt Hughes vs. Royce Gracie fight:

I happened to run into Royce and his dad Helio two days before the fight while picking up one of their BBs in from out of town for training.  I was flattered that Royce remembered me from the time that Rigan Machado had introduced us.  I told him he would take guard, get past MH's elbow on a punch, slither to his back, and choke him out.  His dad and he laughed (I was in awe at how relaxed he was two days before a major fight.) and he said to me "From your lips to God's ear."

Actually I was quite concerned for Royce based on what I knew of his training preparation via youtube clips and local gossip.  Apparently he had been training kickboxing with one of his students who was a hopkido instructor and for his wrestling preparation the youtube clip showed him dealing with obviously non-wrestling students trying to shoot double legs on him.

IMHO the essence of the fight was for him to establish guard position.  For him kickboxing was utterly irrelevant to this mission.  IMHO he needed to experience the way a good wrestling based MMA fighter can shoot a double leg and pass the guard, but apparently his thinking was set in his hey day in the early UFC days before the advent of MMA seasoned wrestlers and before the advent of Greco Roman based clinch.  IMHO he should have been up at Rico Chiapparelli's RAW/R-1 Gym in El Segundo experiencing the wrestling based fighters there-- men like Rico, Vlady Matyushenko, and Frank Trigg.

If you watch the fight again, you will see MH take him down from clinch while he (RG) is trying to throw a punch.  This is how he missed establishing guard and therefore had no chance in the fight. 

In other words IMHO his downfall was underestimating what good wrestling/Greco-Roman based grappling can contribute to a MMA fight.

RG changed the martial art world and launched a revolution.  His fights in the early UFC, showed a much smaller, weaker man who fearlessly beat three men every time he stepped into the cage in fights that were truly paradigmatic.  But IMHO on the night he fought MH he underestimated how much things had changed.  He was older, and more dinged up from injuries than he was in his prime and there is no shame in losing to a great fighter like MH was at that time.

TAC!
CD

[Jeff Rockwell]

^From Crafty's lips to God's ear, amen.

[Howling Dog]

^From Crafty's lips to God's ear, amen.

So then Jeff you agree with Crafty's post?

IMHO he should have been up at Rico Chiapparelli's RAW/R-1 Gym in El Segundo experiencing the wrestling based fighters there-- men like Rico, Vlady Matyushenko, and Frank Trigg.

If I'am not mistaken Royce lives in Hermosa beach, just 5 minutes from the R-1 gym

But IMHO on the night he fought MH he underestimated how much things had changed. 

If I understand Crafty correctly, he is saying that in the" old" UFC, Royce was able to grab a arm or a neck from an unsuspecting opponent, because BJJ  was new to most.....but now fighters understand BJJ and are more wary of what to look for....because they've seen it.
                                                 
                                                                 TG

[Guard Dog]

but now fighters understand BJJ and are more wary of what to look for....because they've seen it.

BIG TIME!  and they've trained it . . . extensively.  To learn how defend grasshoppa, you must first learn how to attack! 

[Howling Dog]

Gruhn, So then you also agree with Crafty, that Royce Gracie should have trained "extensivly" with the wrestlers at R-1 GYM before fighting Matt Hughes?  "BIG TIME"
                                                                       TG

[Guard Dog]

100% agree.  BIG TIME! 

[Guide Dog]

"Dog" Tom,

I almost hate to write this, but the little smart a$$ who lives in my brain and writes all of my one liners won't let it go:

At the August Gathering, will you be prowling the fighters' area, calling out all of the BJJ practitioners by telling them that they have a "Gracie superiority complex", and that they have wasted thousands of dollars learning BJJ when only a few submissions are necessary, and that most of them would not make the local high school wrestling team?

Because that would be hardcore.  You'd be the Clubber Lang of the summer Gathering.   

[Howling Dog]

Woof Guide Dog, Not at all....do I'am not that crazy.......The gathering is the Ultimate mma.
I do have respect for BJJ..... I just no longer think its magic as it was when Royce introduced it to the UFC....so many years ago........
I do my best with my limited availiblty in instruction to pick up what I can.....we also incorperate it in our wrestling as best we can........I'am sure I'am very tech. flawed....but I have been able to arm bar a few people and choke out a few others.
But no I'am not going to seek out the BJJ Guys at the gathering.......Unless their  stick skills suck.
                                                         Dog TG

[Jeff Rockwell]

So then Jeff you agree with Crafty's post?

Absolutely.  Royce should have followed Matt Hughes example by cross-training...and a few months cross training is not going to be enough to deal with someone who has been doing it for years and years.  Matt spent most of his fighting career training to blend striking, wrestling, and jiu-jitsu with BJJ Black Belt Pat Miletich (under Oswaldo Alves and Sergio Montiero, I think).  Royce focused almost exclusively on jiu-jitsu his whole life.  While mastery of one style will get you pretty far, it is not enough against a seasoned, cross-trained veteran athlete like Hughes.

http://onthemat.com/wiki/index.php/List_of_BJJ_Black_Belts

I do have respect for BJJ..... I just no longer think its magic as it was when Royce introduced it to the UFC....so many years ago........

Again, no one here is saying that it is magic, you are just adamantly repeating that it isn't.  Which is cool.  You are preaching to a very open-minded choir.  We are just saying it is something pretty worthwhile.

[Howling Dog]

So Jeff, and Gruhn......It was asked me in the UFC83 thread how much time I spend doing BJJ.....How much time do you guys spend doing pure wrestling?
When was the last time either of you competed in a grecco roman or open freestyle tournament?

Why do you think Royce would not have had the sense in all his years of MMA...to not have cross trained like all the others have?

Also what percentage do you attribute BJJ to the mma puzzle or pie?
                                                                               TG

[Jonobos]

I don't think it neccassary to be a BJJ black belt to be a well rounded fighter......so why spend all the time and effort...... after all as I've said before esp in the conteext of mma, you onley see 3-4 baisc submissions.
Yet watching Hendo hold down Anderson Silva is telling.....and yes Hendo did get his ass kicked.
                                                             Dog SB

No one is saying that you need a black belt. Is it worth it to spend the time to get one? Well, lots of great fighters think so... make of that what you will. I would say it probably isn't necessary, but it wouldn't hurt now would it?

Royce was getting over the hill, and didn't train hard enough. HE was caught up in his own legend. I agree 100% that there is nothing magical about BJJ. There never was. Kimura beat the Gracies long ago. So did Sakuraba. There may be many others that we just don't hear about. BJJ is great, but I certainly don't think that anyone is saying it is infallible. Neither is wrestling or Judo, or anything else.

[Howling Dog]

but it wouldn't hurt now would it? 

So Jon....how long will it take you to get this black belt? Is it worth the time, effort and of course$$$$?

Will spend the same time to get a Judo Black belt, or to train in thai boxing or even Wrestling?
It wouldn't hurt would it?
                                                              TG
The point is time is precious and the window is small, time wise for fighters........to spend all that time to train in BJJ....IS a  waste for a serious MMA Ffighter....or better yet..wannnabe fighter.

[Guard Dog]

I never thought it was magic either, until I got my @$$ handed to me by some pretty slick Jiu-Jitsu 'tudes, . . . time and TIME again.  Then Mir knee bared Lesner and I thought I was going to pass out.  Now that was magic!  

How much time do you guys spend doing pure wrestling?

I had a 4X All American 2008 National Champ working my stand up wrestling just yesterday.  He fixed some important things on my single leg as well.  If I'm correct, Jeff is working with him as I write this. . . Rock won't pick up his phone!

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=crXTg67hmR4[/youtube]

[Guide Dog]

I think that BJJ could beat wrestling, unless the wrestling guy has Shooto, but the CSW guy has all of the calculations done for him so he might beat a Sambo guy, who could easily beat a Greco guy unless the Greco guy is a Conepts guy and doesn't fight with his strong side forward because that's the way that...

OH, I'VE GONE CROSSEYED...

[Guard Dog]

Okay I'll stop posting youtube clips after this one:

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=GU0XiLOXdP0[/youtube]

[Jonobos]

but it wouldn't hurt now would it? 

So Jon....how long will it take you to get this black belt? Is it worth the time, effort and of course$$$$?

Will spend the same time to get a Judo Black belt, or to train in thai boxing or even Wrestling?
It wouldn't hurt would it?
                                                              TG
The point is time is precious and the window is small, time wise for fighters........to spend all that time to train in BJJ....IS a  waste for a serious MMA Ffighter....or better yet..wannnabe fighter.

How many of them already have a background in a MA? How many already have a blackbelt? How many were already wrestling champs? How many spend 8+ hours a day training? You act as if these people don't already have training when they decide to jump into MMA. That is not realistic at all, and again I think you are setting up a strawman to knock down. If there were some magic formula for training MMA then every fighter would have the same style. They would all be college wrestlers that "train a couple submissions" and striking if your ideas were reality. Thats not what we see though is it? IT DEPENDS ON THE PERSON.

[Jeff Rockwell]

While I am not planning on entering any wrestling tournaments this summer, there is a PSU Club tournament in the fall, and a Men's open tournament in the winter.  I didn't compete in either last year because of a knee injury, but I might this next year, just for the experience.  I am training with D.1 wrestlers every day - last night I learned "the funk"!  Cool stuff, blends very well with my BJJ.  And the wrestlers are all so fired up to be learning submissions, sweeps from the guard, technical passing...blends very well with their wrestling...the open mindedness goes on and on.

to spend all that time to train in BJJ....IS a  waste for a serious MMA Ffighter....or better yet..wannnabe fighter.

Wow. I'm sure Pat Miletich thinks his black belt under Alves and Montiero was a waste of time.  You just took your own back on that one, fren.

[Howling Dog]

Jon, My questions are simple and easy to understand. Of course some start young and already have black belts in a particular style.
Thats pretty much my point.
If a person spent all his time devoting to one style to get the coveted black belt.....as in BJJ, that would make him pretty much one dimensional(IMHO) and what about the Judo the thai boxing and all the rest....that the open minded choir says has value in context of mma.

As for the college wrestlers.....most that have made a transition into the MMA world and have done quite well......weve gone done that road already.
I would say when you look at it from the stand point of how many guys can wrestle at a college level vs. the millions that can walk into the local BJJ gym and train BJJ....the numbers would be quite small by comparison.

Not many people I know train 8 hours a day.....myself I work .
How many guys do you know who train 8 hours a day.
I don't know many 5 year old kids that want to be pro mma fighters.... so from a carrer stand point, most do come a little later in life.
Its kind of hard to determine if a little kid can take gettin punched in the face would,nt you say?
When I was kick boxing a k16 year old could fight with parent permission.....that was the youngest.

I asked Gruhn and Jeff some specific questions......I'am still waiting for the answers to.

One in particular pertains as to why Royce Gracie never changed his game to adapt to todays MMA......The other pertains to how much they train in pure wrestling.

Both agreed that Royce should have done this..........I'am just wondring how much the open minded choir practices what they preach
I also asked what percentage they feel BJJ makes up the Whole of the mma pie?
I have reasons for these questions.
                                                              TG

Wow. I'm sure Pat Miletich thinks his black belt under Alves and Montiero was a waste of time.  You just took your own back on that one, fren.

What do you mean? ....I'am not following.........Pat Miletich in my opinion was a mediocore fighter.....but I confess I have not seen a lot of his fights......now he runs a business.....and I think  A lot of his name fighters have jumped ship.....but anyway please explain how I gave my back.

[Jeff Rockwell]

Pure wrestling? I don't train many pinning combinations or par terre work, but I do train a lot of takedowns and takedown defense, from both freestyle and greco ties and setups.  My goals involve BJJ/Sub Wrestling and MMA, so certain aspects of "pure" wrestling don't apply as much.  If I train for those tournaments later this year, I will spend time training more "pure" wrestling, so I don't embarrass myself more than necessary on certain rules and whatnot.

While I am by no means stellar, I do take a certain pride in that a number of good wrestlers have asked me where I wrestled after training with me, whatever that is worth.  I get a lot of weird looks when I tell them I was a volleyball player. 

Pat Miletich in my opinion was a mediocore fighter.....

That's a pretty ballsy statement to make, but we'll let that slide.  What do you think of him as a trainer?

If nothing else, I admire your ability lower your head and smash down the walls of reason.

[Jeff Rockwell]

Oops, sorry forgot this one:

I also asked what percentage they feel BJJ makes up the Whole of the mma pie

For each fighter it is different.  For Noguierra, probably 70% of his pie is BJJ.  For Hughes, maybe 40%.  For Mark Coleman, probably 0.000000000000000000000005%.  For every champion one can name with a high percentage of one base art, you can name another with a different base art.

[Howling Dog]

Jeff, you left out the part where I admitted to not seeing many of his fights.
About, those questions I asked about Royce and not transitioning his game to make him more competitve in todays mma?

Its my opinion, but Royce was/is caught in the same vaccum as most BJJ guys....they think their BJJ can carry them. Ego being the bigger factor.
That coupled with BJJ being the flavor of this time frame and people flocking to it like its the martial art messiah.....I think this too will pass......80's was karate....90's thai boxing... now Bjj.....Next will probably be generic mma.....It may already be...
You claim to have an open mind to wrestling but my guess is you fit into the same category as Royce does.....
I would venture more wrestlers have the open mind your talking about than do the BJJ guys. In fact you talk about how open minded your wrestlers are.......When was the last time you let your D-1 Champ teach a class?    My guess is you like to think your teaching him as "your guy"

Take Josh Koschek for example...a monster on the ground not super known for his subbmissions though I am fairly certain he can throw an arm bar if need be.......but he has really worked his stand up game to make himself a very formidable stand up fighter. open minded? college wrestler turned pro mma fighter with a bright future.

 good example of a hard work ethic thats been instilled in all the premier wrestlers that have made the transition into the mma world.
Like I said before......theres a reason why a lower belted bjj/ wrestler beats a balck belt in BJJ In mma and its not his bjj..........after all should not the BJJ black belt beat the lower ranked belted figther? (Please answer this) We have kind of danced around this question for some time.

As for smashing down the walls of reason.......I don't follow?
I think I have kept all my questions, statements and posts in realistic perspective.........when in actuality its you who fail to budge on your BJJ superiority mentality.......

My goals involve BJJ/Sub Wrestling and MMA, so certain aspects of "pure" wrestling don't apply as much.

For every champion one can name with a high percentage of one base art, you can name another with a different base art.

Yet you have insisted that BJJ Is essantial to being successful in mma.....
.
                                                 TG

[Jeff Rockwell]

Take Josh Koschek for example...a monster on the ground not super known for his subbmissions though I am fairly certain he can throw an arm bar if need be.......but he has really worked his stand up game to make himself a very formidable stand up fighter. open minded? college wrestler turned pro mma fighter with a bright future.

Also a purple belt in BJJ under Dave Camarillo at this point.  I know you hate when I do that, but you just keep setting it up for me. 

Like I said before......theres a reason why a lower belted bjj/ wrestler beats a balck belt in BJJ In mma and its not his bjj..........after all should not the BJJ black belt beat the lower ranked belted figther? (Please answer this) We have kind of danced around this question for some time.

The short answer is that the winner of each particular fight had attributes that outweighed his opponent's attributes and experience on that particular night.  For every example you give of a wrestling-based fighter defeating a BJJ-based fighter, I can give you a polar opposite example.  Seriously, if you want to go through that exercise we can, it's no problem.

You claim to have an open mind to wrestling but my guess is you fit into the same category as Royce does.....

Really?  Even though everything I've said to you would lead a reasonable person to the opposite conclusion? I hope you never sit on a jury.

I would venture more wrestlers have the open mind your talking about than do the BJJ guys.

Well, I suggest you go actually start training BJJ instead of just reading about it or eyeballing some videos, so you'll have some idea of what the hell you're talking about when you make sweeping generalizations about what all BJJ guys do, how they think, their techniques, their ego, etc.  You are living in the 90's...with a few of the Gracie's, ironically.

In fact you talk about how open minded your wrestlers are.......When was the last time you let your D-1 Champ teach a class?      My guess is you like to think your teaching him as "your guy"

He's "my guy" in that he sought me out to teach him and considers me to be his "BJJ coach".  He also has a "striking coach" and even a "wrestling coach" and a "strength and conditioning coach".  Together, we make up a " coaching team".  He thinks we all have something to offer, and can make him a better fighter.  Isn't that cool?

"My" D-1 champ taught takedowns at my class last year prior to his senior season; now that he's back, I'll have him do it again very soon.  Right now, he's getting ready to fight, so he's naturally focusing more on training than teaching.  I've also had several guest Judo instructors teach class for me this past year.  Anyone who comes into my gym who has something to offer is given the opportunity to share it with the rest.  You seriously have no idea what nonsense you're spouting at this point.

[Jeff Rockwell]

"What we've got here is...a failure to communicate.  Some men...you just can't reach."  - The Captain



"Sometimes Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and Wrestling together...can be a real cool hand." - Luke



"Sean Sherk, you're dead!  I'm going to kill you just to spite Tom Guthrie!" - B.J. Penn

[Howling Dog]

Actually jeff, Ia'm basing my thougths on the things you say, correct. I actually put up the quotes to back up why I think the way I do about you.
If the oppertunity to train bjj with a good instructor for a reasonable price came along.....I would consider it.

It is cool that he sought you out to coach him, though I would venture his core is already established.....In fact I would venture he could teach you a few things......wouldn't that be cool?

You seriously have no idea what nonsense you're spouting at this point.

I actually consider myself a very rational person.....I sense its just a little frustration on your part.
You've been trying to pigeon hole me all along........my whole argument is that you can take a quality (college wrestler) teach him a few submissions and he would suffice on the ground at a high level.......again I think this has been established.

I have a college wrestler that I train dog brothers with.
So in the context of a pure ground game(No striking).........how would you say you match up, with a college wrestler equal weight....being that your a brown belt BJJ.

[Jeff Rockwell]

You seriously have no idea what nonsense you're spouting at this point.

This is simply in reference to you wildly guessing about how I train or what goes on at my gym, about which you clearly have no idea.

So in the context of a pure ground game(No striking).........how would you say you match up, with a college wrestler equal weight....being that your a brown belt BJJ.

A college wrestler, equal weight, with no submission or BJJ training would probably take me down, but have a hard time passing my guard with no strikes.  I'd like to think I'd eventually catch him in something, but you never know.  He might well beat me on points.  That happened in a no gi tournament last year, I went against a tough wrestler from VA Tech who had been training with a Lloyd Irvin school.  He got two takedowns, and narrowly escaped three tight submission holds...by dragging us into the crowd and having the ref stand us up each time. (That was actually the ref's fault, he should have been disqualified or docked points according to the rules).  Anyway, I lost that match 4-0.  But it was a great learning experience, and I hope to meet up with that guy again someday, just to see if a change of strategy will change the outcome.

In fact I would venture he could teach you a few things......wouldn't that be cool?

*sigh* He does, on a daily basis, which I've said before...I seriously feel like I'm talking to a wall.

You are correct, I am frustrated at this point.  But mostly for allowing myself to get sucked into this thread.  I felt the hook, I should have just swam away.

Actually, I changed my mind.  I'm no longer frustrated.  You win, Tom.  Wrestling rules, BJJ sucks and no one should ever train it.  Hopefully it will die out and never challenge the one true art that is wrestling again.  Enjoy your excellent thread as the crickets chirp.

[Howling Dog]

Now Now Jeff, take it easy, I'am in agreement with that BJJ has its merits. Your right, in that this discussion has hit the wall.
My real intention was to look at a very intresting fight BJ Penn and Sean Sherk with their attributes and how it may pan out.......

However.....In the spirit of Dog Brothers martial arts and the attitude of lets try it and see what happens.
Speaking on behalf of someone who know not that I'am speaking for them at this point.....and with the fact that I onley live about 4 hours from you in Ohio.....how would you feel about Rolling with my college wrestler and lets take a look. I'am pretty sure hes about your weight.
He has very little BJJ experience.
There again I'am speaking for him and with out his knowledge.....yet hes known to be a gammer. Are you?