sean sherk vs. bj penn

[Jeff Rockwell]

LOL, I had a feeling that was coming.  Thanks, I roll with college wrestlers every day.  If he (or you from the sounds of it) wants to test his skills in a submission environment, enter the Grappler's Quest in New Jersey on June 28th in the advanced division.  I should be there, and if we both do well, no doubt we'll meet.  Better yet, why don't YOU enter?  There are master's and senior's divisions as well as the open, so I'm sure there's somewhere you'll feel comfortable.

Ok, NOW, I'm done with this thread, I promise.

[Howling Dog]

Ok, No problem.....It really was not intended so much as a challenge match with any kind of anger or animosity attached.....but just a friendly roll......more for my benifit than yours of course, becuase you already know how you match up against a college wrestler...but I would be intrested to see how well a college wrestler matches up agianst a BJJ brown belt.
 NJ is a little far, besides I'am quite sure I would not do well.......old and tired and all......

[Guard Dog]

http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1584.0

How far is Canton?

[peregrine]

quite amusing

[Howling Dog]

Yea I guess it is. A couple of things though that I find to be quite contrary are the facts that both Gruhn and Jeff agreed with Crafty that Royce Gracie should have trained with wrestlers prior to his"fight" with Matt Hughes.
Yet Jeff insists that the reason why  top notch wrestlers do so well in the UFC, is because they hold some sort of belt in BJJ........
Then again, I know from my Karate experience that holding a belt does not neccassarily make you good at what you do.
I've seen Karate black belts who could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag, but then I've seen green belts who fought like beasts.........kind of why I'am not all that pro belt, ranking....

Its just my opinion, but I feel anyone who can compete at any sport at a college level esp all things equal,like weight classes, has proven themselves....and is pretty solid.

Anyway, I'am really not as big a ass as I may seem,but I do feel quite strongly about my position....or when I take one (no matter what it may be).....thats why I really do hate all the key board chest bumping.......It really is as Perigrine says....amusing......and proves nothing.......kind of why, I asked Jeff if he would roll with my wrestler........but I do respect his decsion not to............
The adventure continues........
It was good today to have my wrestler home from college......its fun to watch him and his brother spar......like onley two brothers can .......
The older.....will be fighting in the Aug. gathering..........hes a pretty solid wrestler in his own right
                                                                Dog TG

[Guard Dog]

Tom,
  I'm by no means a high level BJJ guy but I'll roll with your wrestler just so long as he doesn't have a large weight advantage on me.  I love rolling with top level guys of which your guy seems to be.  If we all take the Crafty seminar in Ohio we could roll before lunch if you'd like.

[Howling Dog]

Ryan,Sorry for thre delayed response....work and all. Anyway.....Nice of you to offer for the roll. For me I would like it to be a semi competitve type deal. Not so much as a winner or loser, but with Dog Brothers spirit....of lets use this as a Lab......experiment a little and lets see.

I would honestly like to see...simple as that.......and For everyone to hear....PLEASE LISTEN YA'LL.......I don't have ANYTHING against BJJ.....
BJ Penn is one of my favorite fighters and one of the best bJJ guys in the UFC(IMHO) I also like Nate Diaz's BJJ....He's pulled of some cool stuff in recent fights.
Anyway having said that....I'am sure my guy would go with you(he said he would with jeff) and maybe we can work out something.
He told me last night he's weighing around 180.
If you come Down to Canton.......
Regardless its all good....... respect for the offer.
                                                                 Dog TG

[Guard Dog]

Ehhh, if he taps me I think that would be considered a win.  If he out points me, I think it's considered a win.  However, I'm 155 when I'm in shape, soaking wet I might be able to hit 160. That's 20 pounds.  In any event, I'll roll him anyways as I love to train with anyone who has some good experience.

[Howling Dog]

Ryan,

Ehhh, if he taps me I think that would be considered a win.  If he out points me, I think it's considered a win.  However, I'm 155 when I'm in shape,

Agreed but some wreslters are takedown artists....In other words they take down their opponent get the 2 points kick the guy out and take him down again.......16-8 they win 2 points per takedown vs. 1 point per escape...... I'am not looking for anything like that......besides what kind of rules do you want to go by....Wrestlers get points for putting people on their backs .....obviously a submission is a win regardless...... anyway...we can work on it.

155-160 When in shape? What do you weigh when your not in shape?
My guy I think wrestled at 160 this year...not likley though he'd want to cut weight.......
                                                           Dog TG

[Guard Dog]

Why don't we just roll to submission?  No time limit.  I don't consider myself to be in shape right now and I walk around at 165-170.

[Howling Dog]

Ok.....

[Howling Dog]

Woof, The Fight is tommorrow night.
As I stated Bj Penn is one of my favorite fighters and is probably the odds on fav. to win and I will not be at all suprised if he does.......
What I would like for everyone who watches the fight is to ........ Watch for the contrasting differences in the ground games of the two fighters.
I think this will be a real BJJ vs. wrestler match up, and I think the fight will show that.......time will tell.

If its a stand up fight I think Bj Penn wins........hes got some of the most underated stand up(Imho)
Should be a great fight, 155 is where Penn belongs I hope his cardio is up for it......Can't wait!

I also will not be suprised if Machida beats Ortiz........my guess Ortiz takes this to the ground in a hurry.
                                              Dog TG
Gruhn.....my wrestler says he wants to stay around 170 this summer.......

[Guard Dog]

My call is that Sherk will take him down and put a "half mount" clinic on BJ.  If not TKO, decision going to Sherk.

Looking forward to meeting you and friend Tom.

[Crafty_Dog]

Any calls on Lyotto Machida's (sp?) fight?  I used to spar with him at RAW and coached him a couple of times on DBMA Kali Tudo.  He's a lefty and seemed very interested in the ideas we worked together.  Very nice guy-- naturally I am routing for him.

[peregrine]

My call is that Sherk will take him down and put a "half mount" clinic on BJ.  If not TKO, decision going to Sherk.

I doubt that will happen.
BJs footwork is pretty good even on one leg.

[Howling Dog]

Woof, I like this card.....3 good match ups.
Guro Crafty...I posted  previously that I would not be suprised to see Machida beat Ortiz........I think If Ortiz gets him on the ground Ortiz wins. Its fun though to watch Machida because you can really see his Karate come out in his fights and he uses it quite effectivly. Pretty cool you got to work with him....

I was watching count down to UFC 84 last night and there was a clip of Sean Sherk taking his 18 month old son into a pee wee wrestling program......He commmented to his son:  "Don't go to your back, going to your back is for BJJ guys and bad wrestlers".
That comment kind of left an impression on me.......Ya think.

Listening to both guys, talk and how much it appears they really hate each other, this is going to really be fun to watch.
Hope Penn, is in shape.......
                                                                      Dog TG
I also agree with Pergrine.....Penn is real flexiable and real hard to take down......yet a deep shot is a deep shot.....anyway........looking forward to this.

[Crafty_Dog]

I caught a bit of the buzz build show on Spike and heard BJ talking about how SS's use of steroids indicated a weak mind/heart.  SS denied using steroids.  Any athoughts on his innocence or guilt and the implications thereof?

[rio]

didn't Sherk appeal and fail subsequent tests to the limit that his suspension had to stand? maybe that's why we havent seen him for awhile . . . his suspension is over, not overturned, so now he can fight again.

[Howling Dog]

Woof, Obviously, we can't say for sure weather or not he used roids. When he was at 170lbs. he looked the same as he does at 155 just a bigger version.

I have seen guys at weight gyms who have gotten off of roids and shrank up tremendously....I don't think your going to see this from SS....Besides steriods mostly help the muscle retain water...why would he want that when hes cutting weight?

Though from what I saw last night on spike he did look a little flat, muscular wise....meaning he did'nt look like his muscles were as pumped.
I'am not sure how he could make the claim he didn't know he was taking them......I certainly would'nt pop anything in my mouth without knowing what it was.....So that argument is Bogus IMHO.....

Regardless, I think at 155 your going to see the same Muscle shark and that his performance will be as always......RELENTLESS....    
                                                            Dog TG
Actually his suspension was reduced from 1 year to six months. His levels of nanderlone were not really that high.
Normal people can have up to  6(whatever they measure it in) and his were a 12.
I THINK  Royce Gracie tested at something like 50 or 60

[peregrine]

I wouldn't doubt they've both used chemical enhancing drugs legal and illegal.

[Howling Dog]

Woof Pergrine, On the Spike programs you can see Sherk eating vitamins or whatever hes taking.
I agree that probably everyone is using supplements.
The thing is, Just my opinion but theres a lot of legal over the counter stuff out there that would in my opinon suffice....why take the illegal stuff esp when you know your going to get tested.....

Evidently Sherk presented a good enough case to at least get his suspension reduced from a year to six months...think that says something at least by way of doubt.

Like I said his levels were not that high, and I know steriod testing is somewhat suspect.
I don't know what the margin of error is, or how what Sherks natural nanderlone levels actually are....everyone is a little different......
Anyway.....I'am not arguing for him by any means.....he may very well have been using.
It will be intresting to take a look at him tonite.
One thing for sure......I'am looking forward to this fight.
I got to say I really like Bj....
                                                   Dog Tom

[Guard Dog]

Well I guess it's settled.  Who wins; the wrestler or the BJJ'er?  Neither,.....its the boxer with the longer reach. 

Good fight tonight and if it wasn't for Sherk being so short in the reach department I think he would have clipped BJ with some of those punches.  I'm still not sure why the heck he stayed right in the firing lane of BJ's jab.  Some false lead jab material really would have done him well.  I'm bummed it didn't go to the ground but hey, it was a decent fight.

Woof!

Gruhn

[Jonobos]

Woof, I like this card.....3 good match ups.
Guro Crafty...I posted  previously that I would not be suprised to see Machida beat Ortiz........I think If Ortiz gets him on the ground Ortiz wins. Its fun though to watch Machida because you can really see his Karate come out in his fights and he uses it quite effectivly.

I really like Machida. It is great to see someone that can interpret a TMA and make it functional. They are just taught poorly, and trained poorly IMHO. I am glad to see someone be successful with one.

As for the wrestling vs bjj question... I guess that is for another day since I saw neither

Sherks boxing looked great... he just could not close and land anything.

[Howling Dog]

Woof, I was glad to see Wand , get the win. He really needed  it. Its hard to believe he's onley 31 seems hes been fighting a long time.

Machida in my opinion did just enough to win. I thought he ran alot and did no real damage until the knockdown in the 3rd round. He frustrated a much slower Ortiz, but also bored me..... did any one else hear the boos? Fighting like he did maybe smart in not taking much punishment, but he wont win over many fans or be a draw.....
Hes a good fighter and may some day be great but hes got a ways to go....IMHO....Tito is done in my opinion, he may say he wants to fight but I don't see it.

As for the wrestling vs bjj question... I guess that is for another day since I saw neither

We get to see that when Gruhn comes to Canton and rolls with my guy.....are you comming to watch Jonobos?

 Not  wrestling,Could have been Sherks mistake. Penn looked great moving in and out of Sherks range pumping a very sweet jab with an occasional right hand. reach was a definite advantage, but Penn has really good underated striking,
Penn showed no signs of gassing and looked to be flowing very well.....possibly Sherk should have pressured him more from the start , though that can be real dangerous as well.
I think the best fighter won.
                                                         Dog TG

[Jonobos]

As for the wrestling vs bjj question... I guess that is for another day since I saw neither

We get to see that when Gruhn comes to Canton and rolls with my guy.....are you comming to watch Jonobos?

Unknown at this point. I don't train from the armchair though... I would like to show up and roll around with you and some of your guys   It all depends on my work schedule... we shall see.

[Howling Dog]

Woof Jonobos, Well!! I'am at a loss.....Did you mean you want to roll around with me specificly?
My group is rather small actually, right now it consists of myself and three others two are brothers, they both have wrestling backgrounds.

Unknown at this point

Let me know when you make up your mind. As for rolling with me, well....I never say never, but I will be 48 in sept. and wrestling is real taxing on me. Would you feel good about beating up a tired old man? Like I said though, I never say never and we will be in training for the gathering by then so....as I said let me know when you make up your mind. The seminar is on a weekend if that helps.
Anyway.....

I don't train from the armchair though...

If you don't make the Crafty dog seminar........I will have myself and two fighters at the Aug. gathering of the pack......I would fight you there or you could fight one of my guys who is also a pretty solid wrestler.
Any plans for being at the gathering?
                                                                                         Dog TG

[Jonobos]

Woof Jonobos, Well!! I'am at a loss.....Did you mean you want to roll around with me specificly?
My group is rather small actually, right now it consists of myself and three others two are brothers, they both have wrestling backgrounds.

Unknown at this point

Let me know when you make up your mind. As for rolling with me, well....I never say never, but I will be 48 in sept. and wrestling is real taxing on me. Would you feel good about beating up a tired old man? Like I said though, I never say never and we will be in training for the gathering by then so....as I said let me know when you make up your mind. The seminar is on a weekend if that helps.
Anyway.....

I don't train from the armchair though...

If you don't make the Crafty dog seminar........I will have myself and two fighters at the Aug. gathering of the pack......I would fight you there or you could fight one of my guys who is also a pretty solid wrestler.
Any plans for being at the gathering?
                                                                                         Dog TG

Well, with you or any of your guys. I was just saying that I would not make the trip all the way out there just to watch I like my training hands on, and training with lots of people with different styles is always a positive learning experience! I am certainly not trying to "pick on a tired old man."

I hope to be at a gathering soon, probably not this summer, but soon

[Howling Dog]

I was just saying that I would not make the trip all the way out there just to watch 

Hopefully the reason you would come, would be for the Crafty dog Seminar.
After Jeff refused my offer to have him roll with my college wrestler, Gruhn stepped up and offered to, at the lunch break of the seminar.
I would also like to have time to grab some lunch........My main goal though is to attend the seminar, not about some off time training....we do that in our regular practices, as I'am sure you do as well.

You actually make mention of it in the other thread (ufc83 Gsp vs. serra)....remember where you mention letting the wrestlers submit you with their sloppy technique and neck cranks.

Anyway, maybe we'll see you at the seminar, or at a gathering sometime......
Thanks for not wanting to pick on a tired old man
                                                               Dog TG

[Jonobos]

Hopefully the reason you would come, would be for the Crafty dog Seminar.

Goes without saying Trust me, I am not into all the chest pounding. I would not drive all the way out there just to try and show people up (nor do I think I really could with my meager 1 year of grappling experience,) when we are all practicing members of the same organization.

After Jeff refused my offer to have him roll with my college wrestler, Gruhn stepped up and offered to, at the lunch break of the seminar.
I would also like to have time to grab some lunch........My main goal though is to attend the seminar, not about some off time training....we do that in our regular practices, as I'am sure you do as well.

Yep, sure do. But I try and train with different people whenever I get the chance. I find it a much better meter of where I stand then rolling with the same people over and over again. Ultimately it is up to you guys. If they want to warm up with some friendly grappling cool. If they want to tumble a bit after the seminar that is cool... If not we will all have a good time soaking in what Crafty has to offer!

You actually make mention of it in the other thread (ufc83 Gsp vs. serra)....remember where you mention letting the wrestlers submit you with their sloppy technique and neck cranks.

Context is everything I believe my point was that some of the wrestlers I roll with are more interested in winning in class then they are in learning to apply proper technique. I tap out and move on to someone that leaves their ego at the door and wants to learn. We have an open mat at the end of every class where they can steamroll everyone they like and it doesn't waste our training time. I also don't need to spend time in the hospital because someone lacks self control and heal hooks me in class

Anyway, maybe we'll see you at the seminar

You just might, even if you guys don't fancy a little extra credit grappling 

To bring this back around to original topic... what does everyone think of bj vs gsp?

[Howling Dog]

Jonobos, As you said context is everything. When, I orginally asked your instructer to roll with my college wrestler it was  for me , to be done in a way , so as to see how well a BJJ brown belt and a college wrestler both about the same size matched up against each other.  My idea was that this was to be done competitvly. I was refused.
Gruhn stepped up and said he would roll with my guy at the seminar. Gruhn suggested that they grapple to submission. I agreed, my guy says cool.
In context this is not really so much a friendly roll....you show me I'll show you.....type thingy.
Dog Brothers rules do apply...."friends at the end of the day"


As for the rest......like I said, let me know when you decide weather or not you are comming.

                                                                 Dog TG

[foxmarten]

so as to see how well a BJJ brown belt and a college wrestler both about the same size matched up against each other. [/quote]

Didn't Matt Hughes win an Abu Dhabi match?  BTW bj vs. sean reminded me of Matt vs. GSP II...a guy with a shorter reach standing on the outside and throwing jabs/hooks..didn't work out well.  I'd hate to see bj vs. GSP.  bj is at a good weight right now and fighting someone as big  as GSP might shorten his career.  Kind of like those matches with Wanderlei vs. Sakuraba.  Those definately shortened Sakuraba's career.  It was cool when Sakuraba submitted a very inexperienced Rampage though.

[rio]

i agree w/ foxmarten, Baby J will be out of weight class. he did well when he was up there but GSP is a monster on top right now. asking to step up against Rush is like my kids asking to spar with me.

[Jonobos]

so as to see how well a BJJ brown belt and a college wrestler both about the same size matched up against each other.

Didn't Matt Hughes win an Abu Dhabi match?  BTW bj vs. sean reminded me of Matt vs. GSP II...a guy with a shorter reach standing on the outside and throwing jabs/hooks..didn't work out well.  I'd hate to see bj vs. GSP.  bj is at a good weight right now and fighting someone as big  as GSP might shorten his career.  Kind of like those matches with Wanderlei vs. Sakuraba.  Those definately shortened Sakuraba's career.  It was cool when Sakuraba submitted a very inexperienced Rampage though.
[/quote]

I don't remember if he won... he did very well in any case.

Sakuraba is just awesome! I am sad to see him go...