Dealing with the adrenaline dump

[barna284]

I'd like to know if anyone has any material on dealing with the adrenaline dump. I seem to be extremely sensitive to it, not in sparring situations but rather in "real life" (having to stave off someone harassing me on the street, for example). Is there any was to desensitize myself a bit?

I remember reading in "Meditations on violence" by Rory Miller that the process of getting used to the AD is quite specific to the task & role. From this POV, the solution would be to deal with this sort of situation more often. I'm not sure that'd be too wise, however...

[G M]

Training, to a degree can minimize the impact of an adrenaline dump. "Combat breathing" is an effective tool as well.

[Crafty_Dog]

Please describe.

[G M]

http://www.policeone.com/training/articles/1271860-The-adrenaline-dump-Its-more-than-just-breathing/

The adrenaline dump: It's more than just breathing

By Dr. Michael J. Asken

An increasing emphasis is being placed on awareness and management of the potential negative effects of the “adrenaline dump” on police performance. For example, it has been said that the “holy grail” for firearms instructors is to teach management of the effects of adrenaline on shooting performance (1). That’s a good thing.

Excellent resources from Remsberg(2), Siddle(3), Grossman(4), Murray(5) and others, have now well described the performance changes that occur with and in high stress situations. It is also a good thing that more and more training conferences discuss these effects in a variety of presentations with the goal of preventing and managing negative effects. When participants are asked how to control such effects, there is almost always a resounding chorus with the answer: Tactical Breathing. . . and there it stops.

Tactical Breathing is a good thing; it is a very effective self-regulation technique; but, there is much more to tactical arousal control than just breathing techniques.

Physical arousal refers to those physical and psychological changes (biochemical) that occur in your body to prepare you to fight (if you are a warrior) or flee (if you are a typical untrained civilian) at maximum capacity. These effects are linked primarily to the release of adrenalin by the body to create such readiness. While some arousal is necessary for optimal performance, excessive arousal can impede effective response.

[Dog Howie]

Is there any was to desensitize myself a bit?
<snip>...From this POV, the solution would be to deal with this sort of situation more often. I'm not sure that'd be too wise, however...

YES! There are many ways to both train yourself to function inside your adrenaline! Here are some suggestions that I have found to be helpful to me.

A. An adrenaline dump  is a normal and healthy thing. Tell yourself not to fear it because it's only a physiological response to a stimuli. It's not fear, it's just a chemical. Once you understand that you can step back from yourself and look at the experience and begin to manage it instead of it managing you. I attempt to look at my adrenaline as another weapon in my  arsenal. I try to use it both defensively and offensively.

B. Good news is that to practice training yourself to deal with your adrenaline you do not have to get into life threatening situations. This is one of the reasons we promote real-contact fighting. In a real-contact situation you will find that your body/mind will respond, in terms of adrenaline, very much as if you are truly fighting for your life. But, there are other ways to familiarize yourself with your adrenaline.

C. Although not the intensity of a fight I have found great value in exposing myself to adrenaline stimulating "entertainment" such as an intense roller coaster. Agreed... It's not the same as a real-contact fight  but I surely get an adrenaline dumpand if I'm actually seeking to experience and understand my body and experience the adrenaline NOT fir entertainment but rather for exploration I find this seemingly silly idea to be VERY helpful to me. I approach the "ride" as an experiment and i purposefully train myself To be aware of my  physiological responses during the experience. All I can say is that this has helped me.

DBMA is well aware that a familiarization of, and resulting comfort with one's adrenaline response is important because it can free you to respond much better than if you become confused and debilitated by it.

I'm sure others will have more ideas. But do be encouraged because your adrenaline dump IS trainable and, if you are like me, you will benefit greatly from doing so.  

[DougMacG]

Great topic and great ideas.

At roughly the same time as the original post, 5rings had a nutrition post in answer to a different question that I think applies equally here, go to health and nutrition thread for specifics.  I would add caffeine limits to the healthy eating advice.  If I wish to be calm in an unexpected, adrenalin charged moment, I will wish I did not have a second, third or fourth cup of coffee that morning or any other altering substance.

"having to stave off someone harassing me on the street"

I had the good fortune of attending an anger management class.  I remember two themes of advice in the class, one was how extremely often that alcohol is a factor when conflict goes too far.  The other was called keeping your basket less that half full.  We all have issues we have to deal with, work, home, bills, stress, kids, IRS, injuries, whatever.  Make time and deal with them one by one.  Don't let yourself get so near the boiling point that the next smallest thing might set you off. On the flip side, don't assume the other guy is not one comment or dirty look away from flipping. In other words, the more he shows he is a jerk, the more avoidance you need.  My guess is that a typical harasser described above is 99.9% of the time not worthy of what you are preparing for in martial arts. 

[Stickgrappler]

Woof:

Part of dealing with the adrenaline dump is NOT to have to deal with the adrenaline dump. Be sure your awareness is "on", that is, you are not in Code White but in Code Yellow. IIRC 'G M' posted a good link explaining the Color Codes of Awareness in the Security/Surveilance issues :

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/firearms120

An nice presentation on the Color Code of Mental Awareness.

Also, remember the 3 S's - don't be where there are Stupid people, doing Stupid things in Stupid places (forgot exact wording, but you get the idea).

The other is not to fit the victim profile... Walk with confidence, continually scan your environment... if you present yourself as a hard target, odds are you will be passed over for an easier victim.

HTH.

~sg

edit:

Related thread Arednaline

[Crafty_Dog]

Good conversation.

 I would add into the mix that fight and flight are not the only options.  Actually, there are 5 possible responses to aggression:

Fight
Flight
Freeze
Posture
Submit

[unstpabl1]

I think most have have issues with this to some degree and it gets compounded to a degree by performance anxiety as well

Mental programing and rehearsal will help. Shadow boxing with the mind

Years ago I developed claustrophobia after having my head encases to make a mask for a tv show. It got worse and after time led to full blown panic attacks in situations that never phased me before. elevators and airplanes became hell


One day I read a book called The Power Of Your Subconcious Mind by joseph Murphy and started utilizing the info. I started putting myself in closets, doing affirmations and visualizing the situations. Pretty much acting out the situations that were freaking me out. DESENSITIZATION. Seriously in a few weeks I was back on elevators and planes. Yes I still have some degree of problems with it but no where near the degree prior. I alsso thing if I worked on it more regularly I could reprogram the negative response right out, but in truth I stopped rehearsing it for the most part

[AndrewBole]

hello Barna.

some good pointers from kind folks already.

Before anything, I advise you to read these two sites regarding handling all kinds of weird and violent behaviour. They have made tremendous impact on the way I perceive conflict.

http://www.conflictcommunications.com/  -  this is the brainchild of Rory Miller and Marc Macyoung, which is basically a universal matrix for deescalation. Incredible work, highly recommended.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ - site with vast amounts of articles by Marc Macyoung covering basically everything there is to cover regarding the "transcendent" dynamics of violent, marginal conflict.

If you already know these two, please, ignore the above.

Now, about the adrenaline dump..

If we look at it without any other prerequisites or implications or reasons for occurence, the Dump is a preety marvelous human reaction. When in a specific state of "awareness" our body automatically starts to produce (cant find a better word) hormones and neurotransmitters, epinephrine, norepinephrine, dopamine. These substances are a natural intoxicant and boost to help the body cope with an acute situation. Here are a couple of general effects :

-extensive focusing, otherwise known as tunnel vision
-higher heartrate and bloodpressure
-warped time and space perception
-pain tolerance barrier shift
-mental block (Fight, flight...and freeze, posture, submit, as Guro Crafty noted)
-loss of fine motor movement and coordination


If you wish to rid away of the Dump, because you feel it makes you a coward, sure you can do that. But bear in mind the process usually starts because of YOUR perception of the problem, rather than the state of the problem/conflict in itself. Thats why Miller and Macyoung use the mantra of "Deescalate yourself first". Anyhow, in effect, the adrenaline dump, when used correctly acts as an incredible natural boost, which usually makes people do extraordinary things. So the other route is try to learn some SOPs on how to try to reprogram the shift via training and use the Dump in your favor.

1. Positive self influence

At first signs of incoming Adrenaline dump, intentionally identify all the effects of it. Shaky knees, sweaty hands, dry mouth, shaking voice to name a few. Instead of going down the logic --->oh no, shock----->shit I am scared------>crap I am a pussy------>ill get killed--->shutdown...and automatically making yourself a target, force yourself to identify the natural effects of the dump as a signifier that your body is readying itself to do "out of borders" activity, probably including physical intervention. Use this reasoning instead : Identifying the effects------>Shock in effect---------->I am ready-------->I am ready....say the words out loud, start talking. Most importantly because this is how you can trick your initial shock/breathhold reaction and automatically start breathing through talking. The reason why people usually get so incredibly tired in real life threatening scenarios/attacks is, they literally forget to breathe, which obviously has BAD sideffects...you get stiff, freeze, but most importantly, simply put, because brains oxygen demand isnt met you cant readily operate its primary function....to think (which in turn means negotiate, cheat, talk your way out of shit)

In training you obviously need to RECREATE the effects of the adrenaline dump. The way this is done is, that you must force yourself to the edge of your "wellness circle". When we train, we usually say that training has started when you cant take it anymore. Everything up to there is warmup. Try it with a regular excercise/training/running, whatever you do, and when you feel you cant take it anymore, or you stop, force yourself to do 10 more, or run 500 more metres. Next time do 12 more, another time 15 more, thus gradually broaden your spectrum.

When you feel you are going out of your comfort zone, start with the positive self influencing. You will also start to feel the chemical changes happening when going "overboard", thats the part when you rationally identify the physical effects of the Dump. If done correctly, first time "crossing the line" usually makes people regurgitate or "barely keeping it in" (its late and I cant really find correct words, sorry)


2. Neurolinguistic anchor

This is the second part of the SOP. Basically it is a training method with which you try to condition a certain personal stress level to a word, or a phrase. The way this is done is, you do some stress drills (pushups without breathing, sprints, max. output bag work, whatever) for about 1 min. or 30 seconds so you try to force yourself to the very limit of your current psychophysical capabilities. During this time, use all the crippling ache and pain and loss of air, and build it inside, forcefully suppress the feeling of anxiety and artificially switch to agression via your own "mini ritual"... clench fists, bite hard, whatever you do. Then at the "end of stress drill signal" whistle, pop, whichever, let everything that you build up inside out in a single raging galvanizing tantrum. Hit air, punch a bag, a mitt, maybe hit sticks with a friend untill you break them, stuff like that. At the same time connect it to a word or a short 2 word phrase.

It doesnt take too long before you will start to feel weird alarms, "heads up" feelings when you will unintentially say the chosen word. The idea here is, that when you start to feel shit hitting the fan, you forcefully try to cheat yourself and go into the "red level" alot quicker with the help of the linguistic anchor.


Another "hint" about perceiving environment and thus use avoidance instead of damage control is dictation of surroundings. I was first being noticed about it in some DT/bodyguard crisis, anti ambush driving course. While you drive you basically constantly say all the things you see on the road and in the peripheral vision out loud. This way you are slowly making a subliminal habit of constant assesment of the surroundings and at the same time, your mind has a harder time to wander away and put you off guard. Do the exact same thing when you go for a walk next time. You dont need to say it out loud of course, if you have fears you will be put in an asylum, but talk to yourself, have a test. Any action you see, acknowledge it and say it to yourself. Eventually it becomes automatic...


hope that made any sense

best regards,

Andrew

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof Andraz:

Good to have you with us.  Before turning to the substance, I would interject that there is no need to apologize for your English.   The great majority of the American population would do well to speak it as well as you do

1)  Mark "Animal" MacYoung and I used to be participants together on Ray Terry's now-defunct "Eskrima Digest".  Always colorful, he has a lot to contribute to understanding in these things.  Next time we get together ask me to tell you a story about how a video of his influenced someone.

Rory Miller was recently brought to my attention by a good friend whose judgment I respect.  On his recommendation I bought Rory's book and found it most worthwhile.  My friend put me in email contact with Rory and we have exchanged emails.  Rory has a seminar here in the LA area the first weekend of February which I would attend but for the fact that I am giving a seminar in Chicago that weekend.  I would post the information here, but I don't have it at hand at the moment.

2) Some 25+ years ago when I trained with Paul Vunak he was very big on what you call "positive self influence" and I apply this idea as best as I can in my own training and teaching.  Here's a simple technique I learned from him in this regard. (If I remember correctly, it came from Manong John Lacoste via Guro Inosanto):  If you stub your toe (or some other such sudden unexpected pain) instead of hopping up and down holding the foot in question, do fighting movements with intent.  If you have something that suddenly startles you, use the adrenaline to do fighting movements with intent.  Of course if there are other people around, use your judgment!

3) Concerning NLP:  While it is not exactly on point to this discussion I'd be curious on your take on what I wrote a number of years ago here:
http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/articles_ruminations_nlp.html

The Adventure continues!

[maija]

Here's a link to Rory's seminar in SoCal: http://chirontraining.com/Site/SoCal-February.html
He's also doing a whole weekend here in The Bay Area Feb 18/20 including 2 evening lectures on the Conflict Communications material him and Marc developed. It's not on his website yet, but those on Facebook can find it here: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/event.php?eid=179247438773181
Highly recommended.

[5RingsFitness]

woof mates

I personally enjoy the nlp supra state and mental conditioning drills
IE using visualization and mental rehearsal techniques to stimulate an actual physiological response
I picture an encounter with enough detail to bring about changes in my physiology, my breathing, provoke a full adrenal dump etc
then practice skill in that state

the state of the ad is one that is there to keep us alive, so I see no good in training it out (not that you actually can, you can mitigate it and desensitize yourself to it, but heck, why scrap such an awesome tool)
instead, I like the idea of becoming more effective in that state
Richard Grannon has some good mp3s on this you can find others as well
Bandler's ferocious resolve etc

cheers

[Crafty_Dog]

My friend Peyton Quinn, author of the witty and wise "Bouncer's Guide to Barroom Brawling" is one of the originals of the reality-based self-defense movement (e.g. the developer of the "Bulletman") and the Head of the RMCAT (Rocky Mountain something) based in Colorado.

Here is a recent piece of his-- sorry for the weird formatting:
======================================
The Visual Cortex: Why sometimes we see what is not there, and sometimes miss what is there.

I have some cats and occasionally out of the corner of my eye I will think I see one for an instant, but then I turn and see it is just a black t-shirt on the floor. But for that flash of an instant I actually 'saw' an image of my black cat.

If you give it some thought surely all of you have had such an experience. That is where you momentarily identified something visually, often in your peripheral vision, and then an instant later you realized it was not what you thought you saw at first.

We must keep in mind that the act of vision actually occurs exclusively inside the total darkness of the human skull and brain. All the visual data from our eyes, which our only windows to the outside world of sight, are interpreted, identified and defined by our visual cortex. But there is even more to it than this.

As children we begin to develop the "pattern recognition" of things. That is a quick identification of people's faces, other objects, food etc. These patterns are then stored in the neural nets of our visual cortex and this is how we quickly recognize objects and people etc.

It is during this critcal childhood period that we develop right or left eye dominace, or right or left handedness or leggedness etc. I make sure to observe RMCAT attendnats for which is the dominat eye, leg and hand.

To give a good example of how this works there are cases where children (under the age of six especially) lost there vision, but it was restored many years later and in some cases as much as 40 years later.

In these cases the people have to then learn to "see". That is their 'vision is restored' but they can't identify anything or recognize anyone yet. They can't yet organize the images into any meaningful or coherent pattern. This is because their "bank of images" stored in their visual cortex has not had any real and coherent "deposits" made in it because their vision was lost at such an early age

While it is true that we can identify things we have never seen before this is achieved largely through interpolation of things we have already seen before. And sometimes we can get it wrong too.

An experienced homicide detective some years ago allowed me to read his reports of several witnesses testimony to a violent, criminal act they had seen. It was apparent to me that each whiteness told a somewhat different story, and some told a very different story about what they thought they had seen.  The detective then told me:  "Peyton, if 10 people witness an act of violence, then you will get 10 different stories"

Having laid out this basic conceptual foundation of visual perception let's now look at its practical impact on self-defense and environmental awareness.

From a training point of view if you have never seen a person pull a gun or knife on you, then you might not 'see them' pull a gun or knife on you immediately if they do so for real. The same goes for the 'sucker punch'.

In our RMCAT classes I have seen such blatant examples of this and yet it still can truly surprise me!  For example in the scenario based firearms course me and a co-instructor were walking out from behind the Shoji wall for a scenario with an attendant.The course had already gone through the legal module and so they knew the conditions necessary for them to even lawfully present (display) their gun.

  This particular time my co-instructor's blank firing pistol accidentally fell out of his belt where it was concealed in the small of his back. This was not 20 feet from the student. Yet that student did not even see or respond to this and my co-instructor calmly turned around and picked up the pistol and slipped it back into his belt.Now since most shootings occur in dim light we were training in dim light too but even so the video showed it so clearly that the student could not imagine how or why he did not see it when he later watched that video. He was flabbergasted.

In the portal of safety drill in the Hand to Hand fighting course we also see something similar. In this drill the student has a soft bat and he or she is to only produce the bat and strike at the instructor's hand when the instructor produces a large bowie knife for an 'attack'.

 
 I have seen police and even very well known martial arts people totally miss the large shiny Bowie knife being drawn on them from 10 feet away. Now part of this is because they were adrenalized and thus tended to 'tunnel into the face' of the person who might be verbally threatening them.



But there is also the fact that they have never had an irate person come up to them and draw a big bowie knife on them before either. So they did not immediately 'see it" happen. Their visual cortex may not have an 'instant decode' for this drawing of a bowie knife in this context.

 
 

 


Keep in mind that even 'missing' seeing the knife for a half second can be critical or might I say 'fatal' in real situation.



Let's look at this idea further. A boxer trains under adrenal stress. He learns to 'duck a shot' in training because of being previously hit by some shots.



This is "State Dependent Learning'. His 'non-self-aware' mind sees the preceding cues that indicate the punch is coming and his 'body' ducks reflexively.



Because he is adrenalized to some degree, and more so when he is hit in his early training, his visual cortex has stored the images of what precedes the impact of the blow. This can be a shoulder dip, the footwork of his opponent etc. The boxer might not be able to really articulate all these cues that his body responds to because they are not acted on by his self-aware mind.



But realize this is because these visual cues are no longer need to be processed in the self aware mind at all, they become instant 'reflexes' of the adrenal mind. You don't need to 'think' to jerk your hand of a hot stove. This is how we train at RMCAT,through state dependent leaqrning, you just don't get hit as hard as a boxer!



Now consider professional boxers a bit further for a moment.



Let's ignore the fact that you can't hit somebody in the head with a closed fist and not break the bones in your hands without the protection of tapped hands and a boxing glove. And even then almost all the 'great boxers' have broken bones in their hands in the prize ring.



Putting that aside though, the boxing training method is far superior to the Asian martial arts training methodology. This is largely because of this very dynamic, adrenal stress driven development of full power striking and the automatic reflex evasion of blows.



I think I can safely say that the average Western trained boxer (be it in an actual fight or an athletic contest) will defeat the average Asian methodology trained martial arts person. It isn't the 'techniques" that are important here at all, it is the training methodology.



But let's be frank, how many martial arts people are willing to undergo the rigors of Western boxing training? The answer is some, but not many.



Consequently, adrenal stress, scenario based training has some very significant advantages over any other training methodology for self-defense.



First the reflex is developed through this adrenal stress conditioning. It a real attack it will thus be the adrenal mind that responds and not the self-aware mind. Hence the response is instant like a boxer slipping a blow.



Second, the adrenal stress driven scenarios begin to establish new 'patterns in the visual cortex' of any impending attack or the 'attack in progresses'. Keep in mind a 'verbal woof' imitates the fight.



These cues are mainly visual but they are also auditory. And adrenal stress scenario based training allows these cues to have been 'seen' and heard before and thus 'recognized' and linked to an instant and effective motor response.



You will much more likely spot a 'sucker punch' coming if you have been sucker punched before. Likewise, after adrenal stress scenario based training you will spot the knife, the gun, the stick the 'tire iron attack' and much earlier and thus have a decent chance to avoid it.



Look at this on the very simplest level, 'It is hard to avoid something you have never seen before'.



Yet I know that we can legitimately expand on this concept great too.

Because as we increase our personal awareness, that is both an awareness of our 'external environment' and our 'internal environment' we have also enhance our entire ability and depth of perceptions of the 'world' and the people in it.



Consider that for 22 years now I have seen RMCAT attendants come back after a year or several years (17% of all rmcat attendats do come back in 3 years or less) and they are better, and at times very much better than when they left the course the first time, years ago. Yet they did no training at all in between.



My theory is it takes at least 3 months or more for the new neural nets to form and 'fire fully and properly" that are aquiered during the adrenal stress training. So when they come back, all the new neural pathways are a "go" and fire the needed motor responce (knee strike, a duck of a blow, etc) immediattely and powerfully in the new scenarios. So naturally they fight better and even de-escallte better.



Our external environment might include our noting raised voices signaling a potential physical conflict. Alternatively it might be a particular facial expression of someone we are negotiating with in business that tips us off to something we would otherwise miss perceiving. Or it could be something less subtle that we spot immediately, like the pistol in the hand of the 'determined man' just walking into the fast food place we are at.



Our internal environment is our 'gut feeling'.  With increased awareness we learn to trust our gut feelings too. We can do so partly because we have learned to cultivate and polish those perceptions that we call our 'gut feeling'.  My maxim here is "If there is any doubt, then there is no doubt, something isn't right, now be quite alert for what that is!"



The human brain's operation is almost mystical in its power. All the computer power on the planet harnessed all at once does not match the computational power or speed of the human brain. Yet as we see, the brain can 'get it wrong' sometimes.



Remember our previous article on the size of the moon for example. Our brain sees at as being larger on the horizon, but smaller in the higher night sky. But this is an illusion of the brain's processing. If you measure both moon's appearances, even by holding your finger tip to the width of the apparent image, then you will see that though it looks huge on the horizon or small when high in the sky, your finger measures the same width in either case.



Yet is quite 'obvious" that the moon is apparently much larger and more yellow when on the horizon and yet smaller and whiter in the high night sky right?



Yes, this condition is apparent at once but this is only an illusion and your brain has "got it wrong". Your visual cortex has thus been totally and convincingly 'fooled into seeing what is not there'.



An important part of self-defense training, and in fact, personal self-improvement in general is learning to re-train your brain to immediately see things just as they are. This means forgoing all denial and seeing with a 'non-reactive' mind or as the Japanese call it "mushien' which means 'no mind' or 'one mind'.

[Dog Howie]

Re: Peyton Quinn- RMCAT=Rocky Mountain Combat Applications Training. I attended this training at his dojo and home outside of Colorado springs last year. Though there were some downsides, the advantages far compensated for the problems. It was DEFINITELY helpful for anyone desiring to train their adrenaline.  Go to www.RMCAT.com for info and for questions from an actual trainee (me) anyone interested can send me a direct message and I'll be certain to respond (note: I will not be checking this board or email during month of February, 2011. But I'll reply to messages starting again in March.) Peyton Quinn has definitely "been around"' and his stories of grey operations of his and his "associates" are in themselves worth the tuition. LOL Tbis is a man who has DEFINITELY "been there, done that"!

[AndrewBole]

@ guro Crafty :

the Macyoung story reminder is noted. Hmmm this Eskrima digest thing sounds intriguing. What was it, why is it now defunct....is there a place I can learn more about this ?

Yes, I think I know what you mean, but Vunak had a different name for it, which eludes me at the moment. Although I am not sure he had a systematic training method developed for it....correct me if I am wrong please.

Thank you for that Peyton Quinn quote. Ive read a couple of his books. Like DogHowie said, a "been there, done that" kind of guy.


I will duly read that article on NLP and get back to you of course. I read it some time ago already I think, but I must refresh my memory.

[Stickgrappler]

Woof AndrewBole:

http://www.martialartsresource.com/filipino/filframe.htm

I'm firewalled at work from parts of that site. I do not know if Listowner Ray Terry has the 10+ yrs of the ED archived there or not. In the past, I know he had about 3-5 yrs worth available to read (or copy and paste).

One guess I had, ED ran its course, with the popularity of Facebook and many many FMA forums popping up, discussion relating to FMA via email list may have been outdated. Decline in posting was evident.

HTH.

~sg

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof Andrew:

I thought I posted an answer to you yesterday, but do not see it there today.    Weird.

Anyway, SG covers the ED question.  Next time we get together ask me to share with you an unusual Vunak training method.

[maija]

Here's the info for Rory Miller's weekend in The Bay Area for those that might be interested: http://chirontraining.com/Site/Bay_Area-Feb.html

[AndrewBole]

thank you Stickgrappler for that link. and please, call me Andrew. I will search the site thoroughly, seems theres a wealth of info on it...hope that the links work tho

@ guro Crafty : hahahhaa, I started a notes updater on my mobile, called "crafty reminders".


Cant wait to hear the stories out :D