Law Enforcement issues and LE in action

[JDN]

I am not questioning the facts in this instance, but I find it amazing, as do my criminal attorney friends, how many suspects supposedly "volunteer" and "agree" to let police
search them, or their home, etc.

"The deputy called for another officer to assist and searched Foster’s car after he agreed to allow it. The deputies said Foster also agreed to let them search his person."

[G M]

A lot of badguys assume it'll be a cursory search and evidence won't be found and think that refusing a search is more suspect. Also, many criminals are dumb as dirt, which helps.

[JDN]

I'm curious, in this situation, if the guy had politely refused (it was a traffic stop) the strip search and refused
to let his car be searched what would have happened?

[G M]

Well, once they found he was driving under suspension (assuming it's an arrestable offense in S.C.) you have a "search incident to arrest".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searches_incident_to_a_lawful_arrest

In most cases, a search warrant is required to perform a lawful search. An long-recognized exception to this requirement is searches incident to a lawful arrest.[1] This rule permits an officer to perform a warrantless search during or immediately after a lawful arrest. This search is limited to only the person arrested and the area immediately surrounding the person in which the person may gain possession of a weapon, in some way effect an escape, or destroy or hide evidence.[2]

In the case of Arizona v. Gant (April 21, 2009) the Supreme Court ruled a further exemption in that the police can search a car following arrest only if they could have a reasonable belief that the person arrested "could have accessed his car at the time of the search" or "that evidence of the offense for which he was arrested might have been found therein."

Note that the crack was located when he was booked into jail:

Deputies said that Foster’s vehicle was towed from the scene and Foster was transported to the Spartanburg County Detention Center, where, in accordance with normal procedures, he was stripped searched. In that search, the officer said he found a large white crack rock inside a clear bag tucked between Foster’s buttocks.

[JDN]

Thank you.

I wasn't very clear in my question.  I don't really care about Foster, but let's say you did not have an arrestable offense (I understand your point) and the individual refused to be searched.

What would the police do if they had merely "noticed a leafy substance on the floor of the driver’s side, and the car smelled of cologne" and the individual refused to be searched?  I assume
a warrant would be required, but probably would not be requested (too much hassle; too little evidence) or maybe not even granted if requested?  Agreed?

I'm looking for a generic answer.  You think someone is selling/doing drugs.  You knock on his door.  You ask to come in; he says no, he is happy to talk with you outside.  Again, probably you do
not have grounds for a warrant merely because he refused your entry/search, do you?

[G M]

Well, the "leafy substance" on the floor seen by the officer could potentially be PC for a search of the vehicle/occupants, again depending on the applicable laws and the perception of the officer. Generally, searches with warrants, with consent are better. I'm sure when the officers smelt the cologne and saw the "leafy substance", they knew they had something, but wanted to build the case.

"I'm looking for a generic answer.  You think someone is selling/doing drugs.  You knock on his door.  You ask to come in; he says no, he is happy to talk with you outside.  Again, probably you do
not have grounds for a warrant merely because he refused your entry/search, do you?"

That tactic is commonly known in law enforcement as a "knock and talk". A LEO, just like anyone, can go to your door and ask to come in. Just as with a Mormon missionary or salesperson, you are free to say yes or no. Refusal is not grounds for a warrant.

[JDN]

Thank you.

[G M]

    "A knock and talk encounter is a procedure ordinarily used by police officers to investigate a complaint where there is no probable cause for a search warrant.

    "In employing this procedure, police officers knock on the door, try to make contact with persons inside, and talk to them about the subject of the complaints underlying the investigation. Such a consensual encounter may lead to a request by the police for voluntary consent to conduct a search.

    "Courts generally have upheld the knock-and-talk investigative procedure as a legitimate effort to obtain a suspect's consent to search.

    "The key to the legitimacy of the knock-and-talk technique - as well as any other technique employed to obtain consent to search - is the absence of coercive police conduct, including any express or implied assertion of authority to enter or authority to search. In properly initiating a knock-and-talk encounter, the police should not deploy overbearing tactics that essentially force the individual out of the home. Nor should overbearing tactics be employed in gaining entry to a dwelling or in obtaining consent to search."

[Crafty_Dog]

NYC Subway Hero Says Police Initially Left Him to Fend for Himself Against Killer - FoxNews.com

New evidence shows two police officers who were aboard the subway car where the attack occurred locked themselves into the safe confines of the conductor’s cabin because they thought the suspect, Maxsim Gelman, was reaching for a gun as he approached Joseph Lozito, Edmond Chakmakian, Lozito’s attorney, said.

...a grand jury member told Lozito that jurors were appalled when they heard a police officer's version of the story...

“The juror said cops locked themselves inside because they thought Gelman was going to pull out a gun,” Chakmakian said. “What were the police officers waiting for, an engraved invitation?”

[G M]

Not at all.....




Fraaaaaaak! 

[G M]

http://policelink.monster.com/news/articles/152641-tn-officer-killed-in-gun-battle-with-colorado-fugitive?comment_page=2&utm_source=nlet&utm_content=pl_c1_20110405_gunbattle_mem

Chatanoogs Times Free Press via YellowBrix

April 04, 2011

CHATTANOOGA, TN – One by one, slowly, people started to come forward Sunday.

Some laid flowers beside the tape barrier outside the U.S. Money Shops store on Brainerd Road.

They didn’t personally know 51-year-old Chattanooga Police Department Sgt. Tim Chapin, but they mourned his loss.

“I’m just heartbroken,” said 62-year-old JoAnn Cook, choked with emotion, as she clutched a small vase of daisies adorned with a small American flag. “I grew up in Chattanooga. I can’t believe this happened. I just wanted to leave something.”

Behind her, 11 large bullet holes showed in the glass doors of the U.S. Money Shops, a pawnshop that was the scene of a gunbattle after a robbery Saturday.

Chapin, a 27-year veteran, was shot to death while pursuing the robbery suspect. Officer Lorin Johnston was hit in the back by a bullet but protected by body armor.

The suspect, Jesse R. Mathews, was also shot and remained hospitalized Sunday with no information available on his condition.

On Sunday, red tape X’s left by crime scene technicians showed where the battle unfolded on a road behind the pawnshop.

Chattanooga police said Chapin was one of three or four officers who answered the robbery alarm at 10:24 a.m. to the store at 5952 Brainerd Road. Police said the robber fired out the front door, then ran out a side door with police in pursuit. The robber shot at police during a 200-yard pursuit. Chapin hit the man with his car, but the man got back up and fired.

Chapin was shot in the head and died in just moments.

Several officers returned fire and took the suspect down. Colorado records show Mathews recently was paroled on a robbery conviction.

His Facebook page shows a picture of him with his chest and upper arms covered in tattoos of handguns, knives, bullets and brass knuckles.


 Jesse Mathews

Chapin’s death hung on the minds of people who knew him and some who didn’t.

His usual table at Starbucks on Brainerd Road bore an empty coffee cup, a copy of the Times Free Press with the headline, “A city mourns,” and a hand-lettered sign: “This seat is closed out of respect for Officer Tim where he sat every day for the past two years.”

He had enjoyed his usual tall decaf coffee earlier Saturday morning.

“We were really, really busy that day. He managed to sit down for a few minutes, but then he darted out,” said Michelle Wade, who works as a barista at the coffeehouse.

She said the shift manager came up with the idea of reserving the table. Patrons reflected on the image as they stood in line before giving their order.

“I wrote the sign and we put it up. People are just looking at it. Nobody has sat there. It’s been quiet,” she said.

At Chapin’s church, Abba’s House Central Baptist in Hixson, the sermon was dedicated to the slain officer. He had been a member for 22 years.

[G M]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/12/us-arizona-accident-idUSTRE74B52220110512

(Reuters) - Two U.S. Border Patrol agents were killed when their vehicle was struck by a freight train in southern Arizona as they pursued a group of suspected illegal immigrants, authorities said on Thursday, .

Lieutenant Justin Griffin of the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office said the freight train struck the agent's vehicle near Gila Bend, about 70 miles southwest of Phoenix, at around 6 a.m. local time.

The U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency said in a statement that two agents were from the Border Patrol's Yuma sector, in far west Arizona.

Yuma sector Border Patrol spokesman Kenneth Quillin told Reuters the agents were assisting colleagues "that were following a group of suspected illegal entrants ... coming from Mexico into the United States" when their vehicle was struck.

Television news images showed a badly damaged black sport utility vehicle straddling rail tracks in the path of a Union Pacific freight train.

The Arizona Republic newspaper reported that the vehicle was shunted for a quarter of a mile before the train came to a stop.

CBP said the incident was currently under investigation, and the names of the agents were being withheld pending notification of next of kin.

[jcordova]

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpps/news/local/2-border-patrol-agents-injured-in-train-collision-05122011_13168997

[Crafty_Dog]

Unfg believable , , ,

http://policelink.monster.com/news/articles/155192-cop-fired-for-responding-to-officer-down-call?utm_source=nlet&utm_content=pl_c1_20110608_fired

[G M]

Unfg believable , , ,

http://policelink.monster.com/news/articles/155192-cop-fired-for-responding-to-officer-down-call?utm_source=nlet&utm_content=pl_c1_20110608_fired

I can believe it, unfortunately. Hopefully he finds a better job with a better dept.

[JDN]

While I admire the man's courage, he was a private employee Rice University and he was a only a private Campus Security/Police Officer - a far cry from a fully trained Public Police Officer. 
He is an employee on the school grounds like any other employee - he was hired as a private citizen to protect and patrol the campus, not the city of Houston. 

Without authorization he left the campus possibly endangering students/staff at the campus. NOR did he even notify the campus for an hour after he had left.  Further, he endangered himself,
imposing a liability upon the school - for example if he shot an innocent bystander or if he himself had gotten shot. 

Imagine you are a store owner.  Your employee leaves the store open, runs out the door, doesn't tell you where he is going, never calls you for an hour after he leaves and
you find out he went into town to help the police.  You might think nice guy for helping the police, but then again do you want people suddenly leaving their job
without authorization, not checking in, and possibly imposing additional liability on you?  As a store owner, I probably would fire him too.  And say Sorry, next time follow
the rules.

[G M]

http://rupd.rice.edu/about.cfm

Our Authority

Under the Texas Education Code, Subchapter E, Chapter 51, Rice University is authorized to operate its own police department. The department is staffed by 25 licensed and commissioned police officers, 4 security guards, 5 dispatchers, 2 ticket writers, and 4 support personnel. Officers patrol the campus twenty-four hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
All police officers have completed their training at a state-approved police academy and have the same authority and power as any other police agency within the State of Texas. Police officers enforce all applicable federal, state, county, and city laws as well as university regulations.

[JDN]

Did you read your own link?  They are NOT fully trained Police Officers.  They are licensed and "trained" campus police.  Houston Police have much greater training. 
Further note they are not a member of the Police Union.

Heck, as a private citizen I have the "authority" to jump in my car and assist an officer down.  That doesn't necessarily make it smart.

The Officer should have stayed on Campus or at minimum requested permission to leave.

Read you own link.

Protecting the "University Community" i.e. on campus is what they do.  NOT the City of Houston.

"What We Do"

"Rice University Police Department takes the lead in providing a safe environment for the university community by protecting life and property. To achieve this protection, RUPD maintains patrols to deter and detect crime, to report fires and safety hazards, and to control traffic on campus.  The police department is also responsible for investigating all crimes that occur on campus."

[G M]

Did you read your own link?  They are NOT fully trained Police Officers. 

Let's try this again. "All police officers have completed their training at a state-approved police academy and have the same authority and power as any other police agency within the State of Texas. Police officers enforce all applicable federal, state, county, and city laws as well as university regulations."

[JDN]

Yes, let's try again.  I do not question that they the same authority and power as any other police agency within the State of Texas. 

Here in Los Angeles, UCLA's campus police have the same authority and power as any other police agency within the State of CA.

So?

That doesn't mean they have the same training.  Or the same experience.  Or the same responsibilities.  As a Houston Public
Police Officer.  Or the LAPD.

As employees of Rice University, they are campus police officers whose duty is to protect "the campus".
Not to mention, as an employee of the University to follow the University's rules while on duty.


Back to my point, the point; he probably should have been fired.

[Crafty_Dog]

Well, cross you off a list of people for whom I would want to work

[JDN]

Well, I guess if you admitted you couldn't/wouldn't follow company policy, I wouldn't hire you either.
Then again, I bet a lot of companies wouldn't hire you for exactly the same reason.

No wonder you work for yourself!   

[Crafty_Dog]

There was about a 15 year period in my youth (about 15 to 30 years of age) when every single dream I had, had a policeman in it somewhere.  Can we say "Issues with authority"? 

More seriously now, I profoundly disrespect the values of corporations, police departments, etc that do as was done here.

[JDN]

I understand you point(s).     I too always had issues with authorities; that's why I quit the corporate world.

But addressing your "serious" points, you are a businessman.  To protect yourself you incorporated.  Further, you
require waivers of all fighters.  You try to limit your liability.  Of course. 

These corporations/schools are merely doing the same.  Morally, I probably agree with you, I understand, but practically,
in today's litigious society, the entities need to protect themselves first.  First, he left the school without permission and unguarded
or at least, his help on campus may have been needed.  Further, the school is liable for any actions he takes; let's say
he shoots an innocent bystander, or perhaps he gets shot.  The school again would be liable.

Better to let the qualified and well trained real police, not campus police solve the problem.

If you are the School Chief of Police, or President of a Corporation, why expose yourself to this liability?  Your first duty
is to your school, corporation, etc.

[G M]

Since you know so much about law enforcement, JDN, why don't you explain how mutual aid agreements work between campus police agencies and other law enforcement agencies.

[JDN]

Since you know so much about law enforcement, JDN, why don't you explain how mutual aid agreements work between campus police agencies and other law enforcement agencies.

I think you have me confused with someone else; I never dreamt of being a policeman.   

That said, common sense says, that "mutual aid agreements" are agreed to at top management level.  If called upon and mutually agreed upon by those in authority, they coordinate activities.  The key in this case (and most cases involving a private employer), is there is no excuse; he did not have authorization and he put his campus at risk.  This is a campus police officer, who leaves his post on the school, goes off campus, without permission from anyone in authority at his school and does not contact his employer for an hour after he has left.     I think he is simply rogue, albeit with good intentions, but he deserved to get fired.  Obviously Rice University agreed with me.   

[Crafty_Dog]

Officers were down.  Some men will run towards the sound of the guns.  Others will do nothing.  Some are sheep dogs, and some are sheep.

[G M]

Here in Los Angeles, UCLA's campus police have the same authority and power as any other police agency within the State of CA.

So?

That doesn't mean they have the same training.  Or the same experience.  Or the same responsibilities.  As a Houston Public
Police Officer.  Or the LAPD.

So exactly what training do they lack? What exactly do you know about law enforcement training that allows you to make that judgement?

[JDN]

Good grief; they are wanna be cops.  Their primary function it seems is to break up fraternity parties.

But that is not the point.  I don't care if he was a former SWAT or SEAL. 

He abandoned his post without authorization, he left the campus community, endangering students, employees, and the campus.  Further, against direct orders, he never contacted his superiors for
over one hour, and exposed the school to significant liability.  He was appropriately fired for dereliction of duty.  Nearly all private employers would do the same.

[Crafty_Dog]

Try looking the widow of the fallen officer in the eye when her man died because your employee did not come to his aid for fear of losing his job.

[bigdog]

I have heard from people in the know that retired police officers make bad body guards because their attention can be drawn away from their protectorate by situations such as arguments, fights, and other real or simulated issues.  The desire to help is not a bad thing, but situations can dictate the type of help given.  In this case, I think he was morally correct to enter the fight.  However, JDN is right about the hole in the Rice security due to his departure. 

[Crafty_Dog]

For which I can see a notation being made in his record and his being told "Next time let us know promptly where you are" and that sort of thing, but to fire him?  Wrong, very wrong.

[bigdog]

I am not supporting him being fired.  Let me say, however, that you can reverse your earlier question.  How do you, as a Rice administrator, explain a campus shooter and being a man short at the time?

[G M]

Ok, a few points from someone with firsthand experience.

If a officer cannot be located, it's a big deal. No matter if it's a time check (Some agencies do a radio roll call on a hourly, or 30 minute basis if a officer is not coded out) or dispatch or another officer tries to contact the officer and the officer cannot be reached, everything stops until the officer is located.

Now, sometimes it's something minor like a radio glitch, or the officer is on foot and didn't turn his pacset (portable radio) on or on some models, the rotary switch at the top of the radio can brush against the seat as you get out of your vehicle and switch you to another channel (This has happened to me more than once). Usually, if you are off the air, dispatch starts calling your cell phone and office phone and says "call out 10-4". You then fix your radio, and say "Unit # 10-4".

Now, if this isn't quickly resolved, then a full bore search starts and senior level staff get notified at home. Other agencies get called to assist and the whole world stops until the missing officer is located. Now, everything depends on why the officer was missing. Radio problem, legitimate line of duty issue or misconduct.

Now, an officer who rolls in hot to assist a "Shots fired, officer down!" call is very different from one who is sleeping or banging his girlfriend. Corrective actions and formal discipline needs to be rational and reasonable. From the news article, there were two other officers on duty at the time. I'm willing to bet that because of the various scheduling issues that law enforcement tends to face, there are times the campus only has one or two officers on duty at a time on other days.

49 out of 50 states have a POST Board (Or some other name) for a reason. It means everyone who carries a badge and gun with arrest authority knows how to do the core elements of the job, which includes dealing with various levels of violence, including gunfights. It doesn't matter if you are a big city cop, a rural sheriff's deputy, a state trooper, Game Warden, DA's Investigator, campus police or any other peace officer, you are trained to a standard determined by the state to do the core elements of the job with others from other agencies. Current active shooter/rapid deployment doctrine says if there is an active shooter(s), everyone with a badge and a gun rapidly proceeds to the scene, forms into a team and rapidly moves to the shooter(s) and negates the threat. It doesn't matter what color the uniform is, what the patch and badge looks like and what level of gov't issues your paycheck.

[JDN]

 I'm willing to bet that because of the various scheduling issues that law enforcement tends to face, there are times the campus only has one or two officers on duty at a time on other days.

I would take that bet.  The department has 25 police officers on staff.  If one officer is sick, out for the day, whatever, they will just reassign.  More important, IF one of the three
need to leave the campus HG can either reassign officers and/or increase the patrol area.  The dereliction of duty to justify firing was not leaving the campus in my opinion to aid
another officer, but leaving campus without notifying anyone leaving a gaping hole in the school defense.  And then not even reporting in for another hour. 
There is a shooting near the school; that is a VERY big deal to the school, the students, their parents, the employees, etc.  I agree with Bigdog's comment, but I would add
not even knowing you were a man short at the time is worse.

Let me say, however, that you can reverse your earlier question.  How do you, as a Rice administrator, explain a campus shooter and being a man short at the time?

[G M]

Quote from: G M on June 09, 2011, 04:16:51 PM

 I'm willing to bet that because of the various scheduling issues that law enforcement tends to face, there are times the campus only has one or two officers on duty at a time on other days.


I would take that bet.  The department has 25 police officers on staff.  If one officer is sick, out for the day, whatever, they will just reassign.  More important, IF one of the three
need to leave the campus HG can either reassign officers and/or increase the patrol area.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

 
Patrol
The Rice University Police Department patrol division consists of three shifts; the day shift, which runs from 6:00 AM – 2:00 PM, the evening shift from 2:00 PM – 10:00 PM, and the night shift on duty from 10:00 PM – 6:00 AM.  Thirteen commissioned police officers and four non-commissioned security officers staff these three shifts, providing for the safety and security of the university community on a twenty-four basis.

**Ok JDN, take 13 officers and cover 3 shifts keeping in mind sick leave, training, vacation, comp time, court testimony, light duty for injury, FMLA and regular days off and tell me how many officers you have on duty at any given time.

[JDN]

Patrol
The Rice University Police Department patrol division consists of three shifts; the day shift, which runs from 6:00 AM – 2:00 PM, the evening shift from 2:00 PM – 10:00 PM, and the night shift on duty from 10:00 PM – 6:00 AM.  Thirteen commissioned police officers and four non-commissioned security officers staff these three shifts, providing for the safety and security of the university community on a twenty-four basis.

**Ok JDN, take 13 officers and cover 3 shifts keeping in mind sick leave, training, vacation, comp time, court testimony, light duty for injury, FMLA and regular days off and tell me how many officers you have on duty at any given time.

Is this a trick question?      Maybe I'm missing something here, but why would I want to only "take 13 officers" when I have 25 Officers and 4 security guards that I could use?   

"The department is staffed by 25 licensed and commissioned police officers, 4 security guards, 5 dispatchers, 2 ticket writers, and 4 support personnel. "

Further, exacerbating the problem he went rogue without even telling anyone and continued to be rogue for an hour leaving the campus vulnerable.  If he has simply called
in, the campus could have adjusted patrols to cover his area and protected the students and staff.

[G M]

Read it again. 13 police officers in the patrol division, covering 24 hrs. a day, 365 a year.

http://rupd.rice.edu/programs.cfm?doc_id=10978

[JDN]

Thank you for the link; your previous link said 25.  Odd, they are authorized to have 25 officers so
they must think 13 commissioned police officers plus 4 security officers; total 17 is enough?

That said, I'ld still take your bet - you said only 1 or 2 officers on duty...   

So on most days maybe even everyday, IF not three officers there will be two officers on duty.  However, I think
you are missing the point, although you did reference the issue of an officer not being in contact.

IF he had said, "I'm leaving, officer down" I bet he never would have been fired.  The campus
could have adjusted to cover his area.  They would know that they were one officer short, one area unprotected. Further,
I am sure they were concerned when they tried to contact him and he did not respond.

You are right, unlike you I am not a police officer.  You know better than I, but is it really difficult
to simply call in and say something like "I'm leaving right now in response to officer down nearby"?
And then a little later to call in and give an update?  I would think training emphasizes communication.
And your first duty is to protect the students and employees.  That is why you were hired and paid a salary.

Instead he just left.  Further, for one hour he never even called in or responded to say he was gone.  IF the shooter
had attacked on the campus, in his assigned area, no one would be there to protect the students or employees.
And the Chief couldn't have done anything about it since he didn't know his officer had just got up and left that
area unprotected.

I can't imagine a situation, i.e. shooter on or near campus, that would put more fear in administrator's hearts.
Or the parents of students.  As bigdog also pointed out, he needed to focus and protect his protectorate first. 

He was working for Rice University, a private employer.  He was hired by Rice to protect the students and employees.
He failed in his duties by exposing the students and the employees to danger.

[G M]

Thank you for the link; your previous link said 25.  Odd, they are authorized to have 25 officers so
they must think 13 commissioned police officers plus 4 security officers; total 17 is enough?

That said, I'ld still take your bet - you said only 1 or 2 officers on duty...   

_______________________

There are more sworn personnel than just the line officers in a patrol division. You have the police brass, who are sworn officers, investigators, trainers, any other specialized unit an agency might have.

Looking at the site, we have these positions identified:

William F. Taylor
 -  Chief of Police
Dianna Marshall, Cpt.
 -  Support Services
Phil Hassell, Cpt.
 -  Operations
Jim Baylor, Sgt.
 -  Crime Prevention - Inservice Training
 
Randy Marshall, Sgt.
 -  Police Systems Administrator

So, with 13 in patrol and these 5 in administration, we have 18. What are the other 7 doing? Dunno. A investigations division with at least one supervisor and 2-4 investigators could be reasonable. Some universities have a special events unit that does everything from protective details for visiting dignitaries and related threat assessments, to additional staffing at concerts/sporting events.

Still, with only 13 in patrol, that's 4.3 officers to a shift, not counting regular days off, sick leave, injured officers on light duty, court, training, holidays, FMLA. At best, without overtime, you'll normally have 3 officers per shift, though because of the other factors, you'll more likely to have 2 or one on duty with typical staffing issues every department faces.

[G M]

I am not supporting him being fired.  Let me say, however, that you can reverse your earlier question.  How do you, as a Rice administrator, explain a campus shooter and being a man short at the time?

Aside from staffing issues, mentioned previously, there are regular police duties that tie up officers that would make them unavailable for responding to a worst case scenario, such as an active shooter. For example, a traffic stop that turns into a DUI arrest (a common occurance for campus cops) takes a officer anywhere from 2 to 4 hours to complete, depending on facilities, policy, blood or breath testing, transportation times, backlog at booking, etc.

As mentioned before, this is where mutial aid agreements come in. I bet HPD would be responding to assist Rice Police with anything from additional officers for a large party, to detectives, crime scene unit for a major felony case, SWAT and negotiators for a hostage/barricaded subject call and every available officer for a "active shooter" call.

[G M]

Good grief; they are wanna be cops.  Their primary function it seems is to break up fraternity parties.

http://blog.odmp.org/2010/11/yes-campus-police-are-real-cops-too.html

[JDN]

I'm sorry to read that some have died in the line of duty.  I never said they did not serve without distinction.  I'm sure mall cops too have died while on duty as well as guards working for Brinks, or banks, etc.  I am sympathetic.  But that doesn't mean they are equal to the LAPD in training or experience.

What I said, was depending upon the campus and the individual is that most of them are "wanna be cops".  Whose "primary function seems to be to break up fraternity parties."  On average, it's an easy job versus being a cop on the beat - that's why even some cops take the job.  Campus police don't have the same initial training, ongoing training, nor day by day experience as LAPD especially with violent crime.  Nor do they have the same authority as regular cops. They patrol the campus, direct the traffic, give out tickets, break up a party or fight, that's basically about it.  For serious crime, the nearby police force is nearly always called in to supervise.

"Court: Campus police can't just arrest people off campus without some connection to the school
The Supreme Judicial Court today threw out drug-related evidence seized by BU police on an I-93 entrance ramp from a man they had no reason to believe had anything to do with BU."

http://www.universalhub.com/2010/court-campus-police-cant-just-arrest-people-campus

[G M]

I'm sorry to read that some have died in the line of duty.  I never said they did not serve without distinction.  I'm sure mall cops too have died while on duty as well as guards working for Brinks, or banks, etc.  I am sympathetic.  But that doesn't mean they are equal to the LAPD in training or experience.

What I said, was depending upon the campus and the individual is that most of them are "wanna be cops".  Whose "primary function seems to be to break up fraternity parties."  On average, it's an easy job versus being a cop on the beat - that's why even some cops take the job.  Campus police don't have the same initial training, ongoing training, nor day by day experience as LAPD especially with violent crime.  Nor do they have the same authority as regular cops. They patrol the campus, direct the traffic, give out tickets, break up a party or fight, that's basically about it.  For serious crime, the nearby police force is nearly always called in to supervise.

"Court: Campus police can't just arrest people off campus without some connection to the school
The Supreme Judicial Court today threw out drug-related evidence seized by BU police on an I-93 entrance ramp from a man they had no reason to believe had anything to do with BU."

http://www.universalhub.com/2010/court-campus-police-cant-just-arrest-people-campus

Your ignorance is amazing. I suggest you go ride along with the UCLA police, but I doubt you have the stones to do that. Each state sets it's standards and authority for law enforcement officers. IN my state, the campus police meet the same standards as city cops, deputy sheriffs, state troopers and every other peace officer with arrest authority and have the same powers of search/seizure and arrest.

[JDN]

I don't know your state. 

But I wouldn't ride along at UCLA because I would be bored to death although the girls on the UCLA campus are cute.  Or is that what you meant by balls?  

Did you read the link?  Campus police have no authority off campus. If they are off duty they also have no authority. What does that say the State thinks of them?  Many don't carry a gun. Their training and experience isn't close to LAPD's except party patrol, petty theft, traffic and tickets. I know a few. Not too bright.  They are cop wanna be's or burnt out and want an easy job. The schools here in LA's tough neighborboods subcontract with the county Sheriff's dept. Those campus's have real crime and they want professionals on campus. A  badge doesn't make you a professional. Training and experience do. General Campus cops are NOT equal to LAPD. You should know better.

Enough. This conversation like being a campus cop is getting boring. 

[Crafty_Dog]

Is any of this really addressed to the original question

[G M]

I don't know your state. 

But I wouldn't ride along at UCLA because I would be bored to death although the girls on the UCLA campus are cute.  Or is that what you meant by balls?  

Did you read the link?  Campus police have no authority off campus. If they are off duty they also have no authority. What does that say the State thinks of them?  Many don't carry a gun. Their training and experience isn't close to LAPD's except party patrol, petty theft, traffic and tickets. I know a few. Not too bright.  They are cop wanna be's or burnt out and want an easy job. The schools here in LA's tough neighborboods subcontract with the county Sheriff's dept. Those campus's have real crime and they want professionals on campus. A  badge doesn't make you a professional. Training and experience do. General Campus cops are NOT equal to LAPD. You should know better.

Enough. This conversation like being a campus cop is getting boring. 

The link applies to Massachusetts. I don't know Mass. laws. I doubt you do either, JDN. Have you ever pinned on a badge and gone into harm's way? Have you every done anything resembling bravery and self sacrifice in your life? I doubt it. You are the typical leftist, first to besmirch cops and the first to hide behind one if you are ever in need of one's protection.

[Crafty_Dog]

Gentlemen:

Lets steer this back to a more over-the-dinner-table tone please.

[G M]

Man loses stomach in stabbing

Woman sought in attempted murder, assault outside bar.
Posted: Monday, July 11, 2011 12:00 am

By NICK BONHAM | nickb@chieftain.com |


  A 35-year-old man was disemboweled early Sunday after leaving a bar where he had been involved in a scuffle, police said.

  Jesus Gutierrez was stabbed in the abdomen and lost his stomach, said Pueblo police Sgt. Eric Bravo.


  "Mr. Gutierrez's stomach actually fell out of his body cavity. One of our crime scene officers found it, collected it and it was taken to Parkview (Medical Center), but the doctors said there's no way they could attach it," Bravo said.

  Gutierrez's condition was not available Sunday night.

   A warrant for attempted first-degree murder and first-degree assault was issued for 22-year-old Shereen Nieves.

  The incident happened after 2 a.m. near Paisano's Bar, 2501 Lake Ave.

  Gutierrez had been in the bar, was involved in a scuffle and the disturbance spilled outside, Bravo said. Police said they believe Nieves stabbed Gutierrez a block from the bar.

  After being stabbed, Bravo said Gutierrez ran to a friend's house for help — about three blocks away on Wyoming Avenue.

  It was along the way that police officers found his stomach.

  A spokeswoman for Parkview said Sunday that because it was the weekend, there was a shortage of doctors on duty and none was available to explain treatment of the injury and what Gutierrez may face medically.

  Detectives were searching for the 5-foot-1, 160-pound Nieves late Sunday.

  Anyone with information of her whereabouts is asked to call Crime Stoppers, 542-7867, or the police department at 549-1200.

[Dr Dog]

Wow - my knowledge of anatomy is better than most and I am having a heck of a time figuring this one out.
That means at least 2 massive cuts, one on either side of the aorta and avoiding the renal arteries (or  he'd have died promptly)
Or disemboweled and then cut the entrails themselves once they were exposed?
And the guy ran 3 blocks to get help!

This is why I miss the ER work.... my stories now are a lot less interesting.....

Rick