Dog (Canine) Training

[Black_Grass]

I recently got a Bernese Mountain Puppy (3 months old now) and want some advise on introducing him to sitting and waiting while I train.

I recently brought him to a grappling class and he did not like it at all. He didn't bark or cry he just want to leave. He just sat facing the door wanting to get out. I thought grappling would be a good introduction because it most resembles dogs playing. I have been socializing him and seems to not be freaked out at the dog park when dogs are involved in rough play. A pit bull and Lab were really playing aggressively the other day (almost turned into a fight), and he sat there queitly happily observing.

Crafty or anyone any advise ? This issue has not come up on "The Dog Whisperer" yet.

Vince
aka Black Grass
Bakbakan International
Kali Ilustrisimo USA

[bjung]

After hearing Guro Crafty talk about Konrad Lorenz, I went out searching for his books. One book in particular, "Man meets Dog" is about raising canines. good stuff.

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof:

Porn Star Dog is correct-- "Man meets Dog" is an outstanding book on so many levels.

I used to bring "Zapata" (the Akita in our logo) to the old Inosanto Academy (Glencoe) and he certainly showed good judgement at whom to growl (I won't mention the famous names) but when he chomped a foot that strayed by him as he watched from the edge of the mat (not too hard, but enough to mildly break the skin through the shoe) I was asked to leave him outside during grappling sessions.

With my second Akita, "Morro" the only sparring/grappling I would let him see was with my backyard group, each man of which he had invididual relationship.  It may have facilitated things that as teacher, I was the "alpha" and as such was usually in dominant position. 

There was once someone in my house who raised his voice to me.  Long story short, he was pinned to the wall by the testicles (snout closed, but intimidating nonetheless).

I am NOT a trainer, and my dogs were Akitas- which have strong and distinctive aggression characteristics- so my experience may or may not apply to you and your dog.  That said IMHO your dog is showing sound instinct and I suggest you tread with care in this area.   Talk to trainers who are not kitties with regard to dogs with protective instincts.

The Adventure continues,
CD

[Guard Dog]

Woof Black_Grass,
  My girlfriend and I have Julius our 4 year old Rottie and we have taken him through a plethora of training, dog shows, agility, obedience, etc.  In regards to him learning how to sit and stay I would suggest getting him into a puppy class ASAP.  As with anything repetitive correct actions will help facilitate a proper response.  As for coming to class with you I would recommend leaving him at home in a crate with plenty of nylabones and toys.  If for some reason you cannot leave him at home bring the crate to class with you.  Crate training is one of the most important things you can do for a dog.  "Rules, Boundaries, Limitations" - He cannot have all that freedom as a young pup because he won't know what to do with it.  A crate confines him and gives him something to focus on (a bone, toy, etc).  It will however take a while for him to get used to it if he is not crate trained already.  The key is to never give in.  When he wines and wants out of his crate  just ignore him.  I recommend starting with the crate for night time and when you are away.

Allow me to state up front that I am 100% against dog parks.  First off you have to worry about all the other dogs.  If your pup gets attacked once it will be scared and aggressive for the rest of its life.  While dog fights don't happen all the time at dog parks anyone bringing their alpha male to a park is asking for them to get into a fight.  The reason for this is that the dynamics of the pack are always changing.  The dogs are constantly trying to figure out who is the top alpha male in the park.  One dog leaves the park , two more come in, it is simply too dynamic for a pack to have a stable structure.

For socialization only allow humans to have contact with your pup.  Have as many people in as many different environments as possible interact with your pup.  Other dogs on the other hand I would avoid physical interaction or eye contact with.  You greeting another dog owner and having the dogs a few meters a part is plenty of canine socialization.

Does All This Make Sense?

Gruhn

[peregrine]

Crafty, funny stories... pinned by the testicles.

there's a lot of good training advice out there, just becareful there's a lot of bad stuff too. i like the 'monks of of new skete'.

Dogs and humans view the world as a hierarchy, so it's best to use it and be consistant across the board this way the dog understands the world. Inconsistancy is where problems are created.

The dog should always view you as his alpha, but one should not be so overbearing that he runs behind you when a stranger approaches or at the sign of a threat. The key is that your dog is well socialized, but highly confidant and depending on your reason for a dog highly alpha. I would reinforce your alpha qualities to the dog subtley, primarily by being the sole person who feeds or gives him snacks.... which is huge to dogs. Non alphas typically believe the way to show one's alphaness is to be ruff, bully, etc.. the key is to have a calm demeanor and non reactive to insignificant things.

The other point i liked is how Crafty was the alpha to his backyardgroup which reinforced this idea to his dog.

if your dog is in avoidance of something ignore it and quickly change your dogs attention to something it enjoys so as not to create problems down the road such as phobias.

personally i wouldn't want my dog to see me grappling or sparring, the dog may learn the distinction that it is 'play' but in my mind it may learn never to turn it's defensive nature of its pack or itself on. ymmv depending on breed, genetics, training and environment. part of this reason is that training a dog to stop a man begins as a game, and any attack on the handler(owner) the dog should be acting which means anything from barking to stopping. if you are sparring and you want the dog to be calm and cruise this goes against it's desire to protect you, if you consisitatnly teach it to not defend you, it will be more likely it will not do it at the right time.

in no way am i saying to do all kinds of crazy stuff to your dog so it becomes a killer, but having a broad socializtion and confidence in a dog goes a long way.  they now have the show the dog whisperer on tv, he has a lot of great tips and excellent philospohy.

[peregrine]

Woof Black_Grass,
  My girlfriend and I have Julius our 4 year old Rottie and we have taken him through a plethora of training, dog shows, agility, obedience, etc.  In regards to him learning how to sit and stay I would suggest getting him into a puppy class ASAP.  As with anything repetitive correct actions will help facilitate a proper response.  As for coming to class with you I would recommend leaving him at home in a crate with plenty of nylabones and toys.  If for some reason you cannot leave him at home bring the crate to class with you.  Crate training is one of the most important things you can do for a dog.  "Rules, Boundaries, Limitations" - He cannot have all that freedom as a young pup because he won't know what to do with it.  A crate confines him and gives him something to focus on (a bone, toy, etc).  It will however take a while for him to get used to it if he is not crate trained already.  The key is to never give in.  When he wines and wants out of his crate  just ignore him.  I recommend starting with the crate for night time and when you are away.

Allow me to state up front that I am 100% against dog parks.  First off you have to worry about all the other dogs.  If your pup gets attacked once it will be scared and aggressive for the rest of its life.  While dog fights don't happen all the time at dog parks anyone bringing their alpha male to a park is asking for them to get into a fight.  The reason for this is that the dynamics of the pack are always changing.  The dogs are constantly trying to figure out who is the top alpha male in the park.  One dog leaves the park , two more come in, it is simply too dynamic for a pack to have a stable structure.

For socialization only allow humans to have contact with your pup.  Have as many people in as many different environments as possible interact with your pup.  Other dogs on the other hand I would avoid physical interaction or eye contact with.  You greeting another dog owner and having the dogs a few meters a part is plenty of canine socialization.

Does All This Make Sense?

Gruhn

nice points Gruhn,
the crate is a very good idea, especially with a big mt dog. also i really believe in kennels, there are times when a dog cannot stay in the crate for extended periods.

i actually wrote something on my earlier post on dog interactions,  i'll summarize- Dean Calderon who many regard to be one of the top3 schutzhund trainers worldwide said if he has a puppy he will take it to play with other puppies, he will allow his pup to dominate the others... reasons it builds confidence, doubly so if your dog is a pup and is alpha to a much larger dog or pup. imho only a confidant dog will effectively stop a man when it comes to a physical fight. if your dog is dominated by another i would remove your dog immediately before loosing becomes a habit, same with anything it avoids or is fearful of, never let the young dog experience lasting fear, quickly change it's train of thought through distraction and removal if necessary.

[Guard Dog]

nice points Gruhn,
the crate is a very good idea, especially with a big mt dog. also i really believe in kennels, there are times when a dog cannot stay in the crate for extended periods.

i actually wrote something on my earlier post on dog interactions,? i'll summarize- Dean Calderon who many regard to be one of the top3 schutzhund trainers worldwide said if he has a puppy he will take it to play with other puppies, he will allow his pup to dominate the others... reasons it builds confidence, doubly so if your dog is a pup and is alpha to a much larger dog or pup. imho only a confidant dog will effectively stop a man when it comes to a physical fight. if your dog is dominated by another i would remove your dog immediately before loosing becomes a habit, same with anything it avoids or is fearful of, never let the young dog experience lasting fear, quickly change it's train of thought through distraction and removal if necessary.

To expand upon what you have said I actually use this mentality with my DBMA training; I call it the "Schutzhund Mentality."? My aunt is a highly regarded Schutzhund trainer so I grew up around her dogs.? We were never allowed to scold them, only redirection.? If they were chewing on the carpet we would give them a bone as a redirect.? The idea is for them to never "loose."? Because of growing up with this I have used it with my dogs and it has worked wonderfully.? I never never laid a hand on my dog or had to physically scold him in anyway.? This then makes them believe that nothing can stop them and in turn as you mentioned builds their confidence.? Julius also started off as a very timid pup, something happened at the breeder which we have never been able to put our finger on.? He was the largest, the best genetic traits out of the entire litter but seemed to be one of the shy ones.? This has since past because of training in this way.

In regards to DBMA I use this when training a certain technique and allow the one performing the punch, kick, etc. to actually get in and meet with the target rather than being blocked all the time.? I am sure everyone has experienced the "your partner does not block and you immediately direct your strike off course.? I believe the idea of being blocked is instilled in us by having so many block oriented drills in martial arts and because of this we are trained to automatically go off course.? In any event, allowing the striker to get in shows them that they can "win" and when they try it in a fight they don't think they will be blocked every time.

Gruhn

[Dog Greg Brown]

My only experiance with training dogs is with my 2 cane corsos. Both are being trained for french ring. The crate the the best investment you can get with it comes to dogs. A great book "the art of raising a puppy" has a great crate training method. The redirect is also something that I havce used. Brego and Roxy didn't hear the word no or get a single correction until about 12 months. I was bringing them to the gym from the day I got them. It just takes time to get some dogs used to the gym enviroment. Some dogs never do. I would seek out the advice of a professional trainer in your area. Depending on the dog there might be things that would work for your dog. 

good luck with the puppy. They are a great adventure.


Greg

[Guard Dog]

Great Addition Dog Greg,
? Another great book is the "Dog Training for Dummies" although there is no replacement for a puppy class.? On that note I would try to check out as many schools in your area as possible.? Try to avoid any classes that have "puppy play time" at the beginning of the lessons.? Also avoid trainers that correct their dogs by hitting them in any way.? Even slaps on the muzzle can prove to be damaging to the dogs mental state.  To this day I can whind up like I am going to throw a hay maker at Julius and he doesn't even blink when I come a few inches from his face.  This is however all done in play 

Gruhn

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof Gentlemen:

What to do when a dog directly defies your authority?

[armydoc]

Woof Gentlemen:

What to do when a dog directly defies your authority?

I have three Shibas, which have personalities similar to their larger cousins the Akitas.   As puppies part of the training involved using a "takedown."   The dogs were never struck.   Instead, when they would not listen to commands or defied my authority (meaning did not acknowledge me as the "alpha")  I would grab them by the scruff of the neck, pin them to the floor, lean over on top of them, and "growl" in their ear.  If they struggled or complained, the position was held until they finally relaxed and resolved to wait me out...ie "submitted."  This is similar to what their mother would have done when they were small pups and not behaving well.   This was started as "routine" training.   When we first got the pup we would do the "takedown" every day and hold it for at least 10 to 15 minutes.   This quickly tells the pup who is in charge without any hitting or yelling.  Now, going back and trying to use this technique on an adult dog who did not have the training as a pup may be tricky.   Especially a dog like an Akita! 

Keith

[Guard Dog]

Woof Gentlemen:

What to do when a dog directly defies your authority?

Done correctly (the training we have talked of) there will never be any major problems with defiance.  Julius sees me as the Alpha and it has always been that way.  Never has he bolted (bolting is almost always a case of the dogs not getting enough exercise and not enough training), challenged me, been protective of food or toys, etc. to the extent that I would worry about and have to reprimand.  However, since I am not training him for bite work I have become more of a dominant figure in his life.  I do the same thing as Keith has mentioned.

Gruhn

[Dog Greg Brown]

Direct challenges haven't been a problem. With one male and one female I only have to worry about it happening with him. Seeing as he is 2 now and it hasn't happened it probibly won't. He has been doing lots of bite work (from 6months). I haven't been that overbearing with him. I just lucked out and have a great example of the breed. 

I agree that doing alot of research is the only way to choose someone to train your dog. Socialiazation is the number one key in training any dog.


Greg

[Guard Dog]

Dog Greg,
  I do road work with Julius as well.  We are getting him ready for his AD test (13-15 mile run, no breaks, timed).  Do you use a "springer" attachment?

Gruhn

[peregrine]

Ryan i actually was thinking about the ad test today, do you use those dog shoes when you do long runs or midday work?

[Guard Dog]

No.
  The best thing to do is to build up their pads.  Start off with roadwork at small amounts on soft ground then work up to a harder surface.  As with all large mammals impact on concreat and asphalt is bad for the joints so I try to run him as much as possible on dirt roads and small stone covered paths.  I use the boots with Julius in the winter for sled pulling but that is for a different reason.

Gruhn

[peregrine]

Woof Gentlemen:

What to do when a dog directly defies your authority?

disclaimer i am no way a guru in this but

for me that DEPENDS on the dog and the action he did.
if he just doesn't listen to commands then more leash work could be needed. both positive inducive type work with praise and bait, and compulsive type work eventually to get the snap to type obedience if that is what you need. don't lean to much on either way as the best for a house pet is a combo. Once the dog is trained in basic obediance, an obediance leash session 1-2x a wek for 5minutes goes a long way. Dogs love walks, it really bonds your dog to you, walking with your dog on leash is different than obediance work, i suggest first walking the dog with him behaving, then later let him smell as you walk... but first things first. 

i believe a lot can be gained by continually making a dog wait in a down or sit for it's food. this reinforces leadership and you are the source of his food. also continue to pet the dog and once in awhile take his food mid meal.

for a HARD dog bred from hard and european titled stock - if the dog "attacked(bite/snap/snarl) me challenging me for authority i would grab it by the choker which is on 24/7 and choke it to near unconciousness by lifting it up by holding the chain as i twist it. Bystanders would think i'm crazy and don't know what i'm doing but rott is not a sheperd and a sheperd is not a collie. etc.  Different dogs may just need a sharp NO, while others close your hand on it's muzzle and a hard shove with a NO.

My rott challenged me every 4-6months or so(i do not regard him as HARD), in my mind i just had to know that if it came down to it, i would never back down from that dog and how i would take it out if it came to me or him. Not that i didn't love him, it's just the way it is.

BUT, much control is gained through positive work and obedience on leash.

[Guard Dog]

If I could add to your last post peregrine (I just can't get enough of this thread  ),
  Leash work is something I neglected to state in my posts and as you mentioned is a monumental part of training.  A huge pet peeve of mine is when people think their dogs need to be off leash to be a dog.  This to me is like asking a climber to scale a granite wall with no rope.  The leash is an imperative part of the bond between the dog and owner.  Walking with them shows them that they need to follow you "or else."  In our cases it would be that the leash would be pulled taught which would lead to a correction.  In the wild it would mean that they would not eat.   


In regards to taking the dogs food this needs to be started at an early age.  Any dogs that have grown up with a person or other dog teasing or trying to steal their food are only acting on instinct when the growl, snap, etc.  The owner also needs to take it with confidence and domination.  I can't stand it when someone goes in to get something from a dog only to pull away just before they reach the object thinking they will get bit.  This only re-enforces to the dog that the object is in fact theirs.  On a similar note, I HATE when I take Julius for a walk and less confident people pet him.  If I sense the confidence problem ahead of time I ask them not to pet him.  When I don't catch it these people sometimes go to pet him then jerk away when he lifts his head trying to sniff their hand.  This confuses the heck out of Julius and from there on I ask them not to try and pet him.

Gruhn

[peregrine]

Ryan, i saw a really nice comment by Cesar Milano the dog whisperer one night...  :mrgreen:he told this couple to teach their child how to interact with animals. Going on to say the child first should learn to observe the animal, not the typical rush up to them and get in it's face excitably. This serves several purposes, first the child learns to first check out the dog(animal), second it doesn't overwhelm the animal which in some may ellicit a nervous response like a bite, third it teaches the dog that the human is the dominant one cause they are nonchalant. I thought this was really good advice and also suggest a person/child first give their fist to the dog when reaching to pet it, instead of an open hand which if the dog bites is more likely to lose/mangle a finger.

[Guard Dog]

I am a huge fan of Cesar's ideas.  I do however think that his thoughts on the pack are too complicated for most novice dog owners.  I think some of the episodes give the impression that I need to just take my dog into a group of dogs and everything will be okay.  If you ask me, in this type of situation you are asking for a fight.  His "Rules, Boundaries, Limitations" and "Exercise, Discipline, Affection" he preaches are spot on though.

Gruhn

[Crafty_Dog]

Many good and interesting points.

What I am about to say is simply my experience with Akitas.  IMO Akitas have strong personalities with qualities distinct from any other breed with which I am familiar.  They can seem quite arrogant, but really they simply respect themselves highly.  Treating an Akita like other dogs is a set-up for conflict.  The AKC video on the Akita shows one being given the command to jump an obedience fence.  The Akita goes to a tree, lifts its leg, THEN comes back to the fence and jumps it.   Akita people laugh in recognition when they see this one.  I have universally been told that Akita should never be put through shutzhund (sp?) work because they already are quite willing and able enough to take on humans and that such training would result in an animal that was too much for society.

For someone to be right for Akitas and vice versa there needs to be a desire for an independent minded dog whose respect you must earn.  Its a hard thing to describe, but when it is there, a disapproving tone can leave the dog crushed. I remember one time I spoke with disapproval to Zapata.  A couple of  hours later I noticed I hadn't seen him for quite some time and then realized he was laying down at the far end of the hall (a place he never used) sadly awaiting my decision to recall him from his shame.  The shame was mine and henceforth I was much more aware of the power that my word had.

When I first got Zapata, the breeder told me that the day would come when he would test me.  He never did, but he sought out some other humans.  Curiously enough, this included the breeder!  I was walking Z. down the street and saw the breeder talking to the owner of the exotic car dealership and he saw me and called me over.  As he talked to the dealer about how wonderful Akitas were he kneeled next to Z. and put his arm over his shoulders in a possessive way.  Z first looked at him like "Get your hands off me you idiot" (Akitas are usually poker-faced, but VERY expressive when they wish) but the breeder didn't notice.  He began a deep rumble in his chest and still the breeder blathered on.  I hesitated, not wanted to embarass the dealer in front of this man whom he obviously was trying to impress.  Finally Z rose up and the dealer instinctively did so as well and Z put his paws on the dealers's shoulders and rumbled in his face from about 2 inches away.  No teeth bared, no snarl, just a low rumble.  After a second, he returned to all fours and ignored the breeder.  There was an awkward moment, and we walked on.

Another time, there was a body builder that Z didn't like-- maybe it was the smell of the steroids in his system (but then lots of people didn't like him either) and Z did the same front paws on the shoulders thing and humped him twice to his face before I could say anything.  "Z!" I said in a shocked voice, and he got down and, confident of his dominance, ignored the man.

In the previously mentioned incident in which he pinned someone to the wall by the testicles, when I gathered my wits and called him off, his arrogant assurance of dominance was such that he turned his back on the guy, laid down again, and pretended to be asleep.

I tell these stories to give examples of what we might be dealing with.  Because Akitas are what they are, the commands which are given should be few and with good reason, but those few given need to be respected.

Before Morro (who was FAR less aggro than Z.) hit puberty, I took him to the dog park everyday with the idea of socializing him as much as possible. (Given the Thosa Mastiff part of Akita lineage, the Akitas are genetically dog agressive)   As the juices of adolescence began to hit, his behavior began to change.  At 9 months (95 pounds), upon seeing an Irish Wolfhound (170 pounds) that had bullied him elsewhere at 6 months (65 pounds?), he knocked it across the park before I could pull him off the IW which was cringing in fear at the unexpected intensity.  Naturally, Morro started feeling pretty cocky and a few days  thereafter I saw his body language change towards a large male that had just entered the park.  As he headed over, I called him.  He heard me but deliberately defied me and continued to head over with what to me was clearly bad intention.  So I ran up along side him and picked him up by the scruff of the neck amd the loose skin at the base of the tail and carried him thusly across the park, put his leash on, and took him home.  M. was quite respectful for quite some time thereafter.

Because Ryan mentioned his thoughts on dog parks, I go on to mention that the alpha of the park at the time that we went was a three year old Malamute (120ish) who saw in M. a rising challenger to his status.  Thus he was always hip checking M.  At 11 months of age, M. had enough and put him yelping within 5 seconds of iniitiating his drive.  I saw the writing on the wall, and stopped taking him to the dog park.  I would say that my experiment in socializing M with puppyhood experience in the dog park was a failure.  With Z. I simply knew that the approach of any other male was a fight 100% of the time and acted accordingly.  With M, he could lure me into thinking he would behave himself and then start up a fight for no reason I could discern with a dog that wasn't a challenge.  BTW, neither one ever hurt the other dog.  Z. was a master of dissing the other dog from a distance and provoking it into coming over.  Z would either swallow the muzzle on the first move, pin it by the throat or in one case of a dog with a fight collar put it on its back and grabbed it by the testicles .  M. would simply look to pin them down with his chest.

So, in answer to my own question, according to the particulars of the situation:

1) pick up by the scruff of the neck and base of tail (this is very strong and should be used quite sparingly)
2) squeeze the muzzle while looking into the eyes and giving a blow up the nose
3) pin by the neck.  This I use with our current dog, a Cairn terrier (don't ask, it is what the children wanted ) when it jumps up on people and ignores command to cease, or when it barks mindlessly from the front deck at passers-by)  This has worked very well with lasting effect.

Again, I am not a trainer.

[Guard Dog]

1) pick up by the scruff of the neck and base of tail (this is very strong and should be used quite sparingly)
2) squeeze the muzzle while looking into the eyes and giving a blow up the nose
3) pin by the neck.  This I use with our current dog, a Cairn terrier (don't ask, it is what the children wanted  ) when it jumps up on people and ignores command to cease, or when it barks mindlessly from the front deck at passers-by)  This has worked very well with lasting effect.

I used the muzzle grab with Julius, with a low "no bite" when he was super young (one training tool that goes against Schutzhund) but it is extremely effective.  I can't stand it when people think it is "cute" for puppies to be mouthy.  It does not stay cute when they get bigger.

In regards to being vigilant dog owners I strongly believe that many (not all) large breed and "dangerous" breed owners are more cautious because they know the history of their breed and seek training.  Other popular breeds on the other hand, owners believe from the start that they are "good" dogs and because of this ignore the training that is needed.  Has anyone seen the up to date statistics on which breed bites the most?

Gruhn

[peregrine]

Very nice all around.

I laughed at the teste check on the dude and then the dog dominantly turned his back and acted asleep. really funny.

I also liked the corrective escalating force starting very low in response to negative behavior, sometimes a kind gentle reminder is needed, and sometimes it needs more.just like kids and your subordinates.
The mention of the hip check reminds me that dominant dogs or people will try to occupy the space you're in, so for the non dog people that dog that always trys to lean on you is trying to dominate you in his mind.

[Crafty_Dog]

"The mention of the hip check reminds me that dominant dogs or people will try to occupy the space you're in, so for the non dog people that dog that always trys to lean on you is trying to dominate you in his mind."

When someone knocked at the door and I opened it, Zapata would stick his head out and announce himself with a low rumble.  (When any of the Machado brothers came to visit, they would already be waiting with their hands cupped around their privates.  The fact that he liked them all and would wag his tail upon seeing them did not change their protective posture while waiting for the door to be opened) This was fine with me, my front door at the time was in a narrow passageway with virtaully no visibility from the street.  When all was well I would give him the all clear signal (a brief moment on touch with the index finger on his muzzle) and Z. would go lean against the person's leg and demand to have his chest be scratched.  It having been established that he was on duty on his turf and was respected as such, he then would turn and come back into the house and completely ignore the people in question, unless they were buds of mine/his.

I had always thought of this lean/"Scratch my chest please" thing as his way of saying "Sorry I rumbled at you, its just my job and we're cool now" but now that you mention it as a dominance thing, I can see it that way too.

[Guard Dog]

Yeah,
  It is 100% dominance.  Julius has litterally knocked over friends of mine when he does this because they were not ready for him to put all his weight onto their legs.  I always joke around with training partners when they come in warning them that he has mastered double leg takedowns.    The other thing Julius will do is walk inbetween peoples legs and insist on them stratching his butt.  I have never thought of it but this too could be the same dominant behavior.  When it comes to strangers Brooke and I always used to tell him to "be quite" when someone walked by our fenced in yard.  We then came to the conclusion that we do want to be warned if someone is close to our property and since then allow him to bark.  He has several distinct barks; one as a "don't come any closer" bark, one that is a "your on my property get the F&*# off" and one of "LISTEN MOM AND DAD THERE IS A MAN AT THE BACK DOOR BARKING AND IF I COULD I WOULD BUST THROUGH THIS FENCE AND TAKE HIS HEAD OFF" bark.   The only negitive externality is the grass that he rips up in the process of barking but I figure it is a small price to pay knowing that local people understand they can't come onto our property.

Gruhn

[Dog Greg Brown]

I am actually looking at getting Brego(the male) his French Ring Brevet. I run about 45 minutes every morning so he comes with me. But I agree I would never use boots for him. The best thing to do is to let his paws toughen up on their own. His are like sandpaper.

Corso's are such an aloof breed where if he is going to show dominance over some one he will walk up and shoulder check them until they pet him and then he will abruptly walk away either to heel or if off leash anywhere else.

He isn't the type to start fights with other dogs but, he WILL not back down if challenged. Thankfully the bite work has given him a great "out" so he will drop the fight and come to heel. This has only happened twice.

I treat him like an athlete. He runs with me in the morning, he plays with the female at night, 3 days a week he is doing bite work, and another 3 days he does 30 min on the carpet mill. If the SPCA people looked at my house it fits all their critera for someone who fights dogs. I have a springpole in the back, a carpet mill in the house, breaking sticks in the house and in my car. weight pulling harnesses. A dog with a job is a happy dog.

Greg

[Black_Grass]

Ryan, Crafty, and everyone.

Lots of great advise from everyone thx.

We started obiedience classes last week and crate trained him from the get go. All in all he has been pretty good, not to much chewing of things, and the accidents in the house are really mine and my wife's fault for not listening to him at times. I have been working on my own pateince as the brred is not stuborn so much as pensive, if call a Berner to "come" he might cock his head and think about it a little before he does. Although, the trainer is very good I am not sure she has expeirence with dogs and martial arts.

"Berners" (Bernese Mountain Dog) although a large breed (110-130 lbs) are not domineering or aggressive in general. They are the "People person" of the dog world, like people,other dogs, animals, and children. Might possibly be the worst guard dog ever, as they are more likely to want to make friends with a burglar then attack him. Its the freindliness that attracted us to the breed.

Which leads me to my next question, what attracted everyone to choose the breed of dog they have ?

Vince

[Guard Dog]

I think one of the most frustrating things I have dealt with in the past concerning new dog owners is when they say:

"He keeps on chewing on stuff!"
"He won't stop peeing in the house"
"He does not listen to me"

It is good that you are noticing early that this is not the dogs fault and is in fact the owners fault.  This is what I believe to be the hardest step to overcome because it involves patience which you obviously have.  I commend you for your work thus far, it seems as if you are on the right track.  Also, concerning his recall(calling "come"); do not try to train him unless you can correct him if he does not do it correctly.  For instance, if you want him to come make sure you have a leash on him to rope him in when he does not come.  Same thing with everything else.  The important part is to follow through and make sure he does what you want him to do EVERY TIME.  Again, great work, glad to see another person who is diligent about keeping their pup on the good side of the law. 

Gruhn

[Dog Greg Brown]

The way I have learned to look at it is that dogs understand repetion. A set response for a particular action.  It all starts with foundation work. It sounds familiar  . 

[Crafty_Dog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc9xq-TVyHI&feature=player_embedded

[stilljames]

I'm glad of this topic.  I've been dogsitting for a friend.  One of the two dogs happens to be an Akita.  A friendly but very high energy one.  Using some of the suggestions, I've gotten them both a lot more controllable in very rapid order. Thank you.

[Bambi]

Woof Gentlemen:

What to do when a dog directly defies your authority?

I have three Shibas, which have personalities similar to their larger cousins the Akitas.   As puppies part of the training involved using a "takedown."   The dogs were never struck.   Instead, when they would not listen to commands or defied my authority (meaning did not acknowledge me as the "alpha")  I would grab them by the scruff of the neck, pin them to the floor, lean over on top of them, and "growl" in their ear.  If they struggled or complained, the position was held until they finally relaxed and resolved to wait me out...ie "submitted."  This is similar to what their mother would have done when they were small pups and not behaving well.   This was started as "routine" training.   When we first got the pup we would do the "takedown" every day and hold it for at least 10 to 15 minutes.   This quickly tells the pup who is in charge without any hitting or yelling.  Now, going back and trying to use this technique on an adult dog who did not have the training as a pup may be tricky.   Especially a dog like an Akita! 

Keith

I've a shiba and an akita, and I'd say the shiba has a personality more like a cat, although he's the boss of the akita and never lets him forget that. Oddly enough the akita  will not allow himself to be pinned or rolled over by anyone even though he's not a particularly dominant dog.

[sgtmac_46]

Some dogs are naturally dominant, and will test authority.  In those circumstances it is necessary to establish alpha dominancy in a manner similar to the way wolves establish pack order.  They don't get the seat of power growing up as puppies (the couch, the chair, etc) they don't get to sleep in the alphas bed, etc.  

What i've seen is that folks reinforce dominance traits in dominance dogs as they are growing up, and then when the dog gets to the age of genetic maturity, and the natural hormones that compel such things kick in, they've already established in their own minds that the 'master' is weak-willed, and attempt to exploit that opening........if folks have created that problem, the only answer is to establish dominance negatively........which is what Alpha wolves do with those that challenge their authority in the pack structure........or lose their place in the pack structure.

My experience has been with working GSD's and Malinois, however. 

[Crafty_Dog]

At 10 months (about 90 pounds) I was till taking my second Akita to the dog park.  One day an Irish Wolfhound (about 170, think large hairy Great Dane) that had bullied him when he was 6 months old (about 70 pounds) came in.  Naturally my boy remembered him and his body language told me he was going to settle accounts.  I gave him the stop command but he ignored me.  The fight was over very quickly.  He knocked the Irish Wolfhound across the entire park for about ten seconds with the IW just totally folding mentally.  Finally I caught up to him and grabbed him as the IW ran off.  I picked up up by the scruff of the neck and the loose skin at the base of the tail and carried him across the length of the park and out the gate.  We were clear between each other thereafter.

OTOH my first Akita, Zapata, the one in our logo, was a VERY dominant Akita.  Instead of trying me he dominated a couple of formidable men; one who had gotten on his excrement list by raising his voice to me and then on another occasion violating the dog's personal space (Z. pinned him to the wall by the testicles) and the other a bodybuilder on steroids.  I'm guessing Zapata took the smell of the testosterone to be a challenge so he rose up and put his paws on the guy's shoulders (he was about 5 foot 6 inch and very thick) rumbled in his face and humped him twice--not in a neurotic poodle way, but in a prison way so as to establish dominance.

[Bambi]

Some dogs are naturally dominant, and will test authority.  In those circumstances it is necessary to establish alpha dominancy in a manner similar to the way wolves establish pack order.  They don't get the seat of power growing up as puppies (the couch, the chair, etc) they don't get to sleep in the alphas bed, etc.  

What i've seen is that folks reinforce dominance traits in dominance dogs as they are growing up, and then when the dog gets to the age of genetic maturity, and the natural hormones that compel such things kick in, they've already established in their own minds that the 'master' is weak-willed, and attempt to exploit that opening........if folks have created that problem, the only answer is to establish dominance negatively........which is what Alpha wolves do with those that challenge their authority in the pack structure........or lose their place in the pack structure.

My experience has been with working GSD's and Malinois, however. 

I remember reading an article somewhere criticising a lot of the wolf pack theory in dog training. Bottom line being that the dog is a very different creature to a wolf and that a lot of these theories about wolf pack dynamics were based on wolf packs cooped up in zoo's which is about as natural an environment as all the forum members here living in a single room.  . I've no idea if the criticisms were accurate but it made sense to me that we should not base our interaction's with dogs on theories that revolve around a creature that most of us have never dealt with..i.e the wolf.

[sgtmac_46]

Some dogs are naturally dominant, and will test authority.  In those circumstances it is necessary to establish alpha dominancy in a manner similar to the way wolves establish pack order.  They don't get the seat of power growing up as puppies (the couch, the chair, etc) they don't get to sleep in the alphas bed, etc.  

What i've seen is that folks reinforce dominance traits in dominance dogs as they are growing up, and then when the dog gets to the age of genetic maturity, and the natural hormones that compel such things kick in, they've already established in their own minds that the 'master' is weak-willed, and attempt to exploit that opening........if folks have created that problem, the only answer is to establish dominance negatively........which is what Alpha wolves do with those that challenge their authority in the pack structure........or lose their place in the pack structure.

My experience has been with working GSD's and Malinois, however.  

I remember reading an article somewhere criticising a lot of the wolf pack theory in dog training. Bottom line being that the dog is a very different creature to a wolf and that a lot of these theories about wolf pack dynamics were based on wolf packs cooped up in zoo's which is about as natural an environment as all the forum members here living in a single room.  . I've no idea if the criticisms were accurate but it made sense to me that we should not base our interaction's with dogs on theories that revolve around a creature that most of us have never dealt with..i.e the wolf.

It's quite clear that dogs are pack animals.  A lot of those criticism are more about splitting hairs than any real issue.  Alot of it comes down to some ulterior motives on the part of folks making some of those arguments when it comes to dog training.

Humans have selected certain traits in dogs that make them more manageable for our purposes, but those traits aren't newly created traits, merely modified wolf traits.

The bottom line is that what works with dogs works, and no amount of debate over the reason why it works alters that.

[sgtmac_46]

At 10 months (about 90 pounds) I was till taking my second Akita to the dog park.  One day an Irish Wolfhound (about 170, think large hairy Great Dane) that had bullied him when he was 6 months old (about 70 pounds) came in.  Naturally my boy remembered him and his body language told me he was going to settle accounts.  I gave him the stop command but he ignored me.  The fight was over very quickly.  He knocked the Irish Wolfhound across the entire park for about ten seconds with the IW just totally folding mentally.  Finally I caught up to him and grabbed him as the IW ran off.  I picked up up by the scruff of the neck and the loose skin at the base of the tail and carried him across the length of the park and out the gate.  We were clear between each other thereafter.

OTOH my first Akita, Zapata, the one in our logo, was a VERY dominant Akita.  Instead of trying me he dominated a couple of formidable men; one who had gotten on his excrement list by raising his voice to me and then on another occasion violating the dog's personal space (Z. pinned him to the wall by the testicles) and the other a bodybuilder on steroids.  I'm guessing Zapata took the smell of the testosterone to be a challenge so he rose up and put his paws on the guy's shoulders (he was about 5 foot 6 inch and very thick) rumbled in his face and humped him twice--not in a neurotic poodle way, but in a prison way so as to establish dominance.

 

[Crafty_Dog]

Concerning the similarities and differences between dogs and wolves, a Zapata story:

We were at about 7,000 feet on the tallest mountain in Baja California-- which tops out over 10,000.  A VERY remote area. Some folks were trying to sell me about 30 acres of land which included a spring.  I wanted to see where the spring originated and so Zapata and I started climbing up the mountain side.  It was full of large boulders, heavy mesquite brush, and such.  Eventually it got too much for Zapata and so I told him to go back to the fifth wheel camper that served as the "cabin" on the property-- don't ask me how I told him, but he understood me anyway.  It was about a mile away.  He turned and headed back as I continued climbing.  When he got to the "cabin" he gave a big wolf howl to let me know that he had arrived at the cabin.

Only time in his life he ever did that.

Only time he ever needed to.

God, I loved that dog.

[Bambi]

[/quote]

The bottom line is that what works with dogs works, and no amount of debate over the reason why it works alters that.
[/quote]

Agreed.

[stilljames]

The discussion of establishing dominance and stories about it being done has made me think of a story and a question for those who own alpha dogs.

I do a good bit of bicycling.  Dogs bark at me all the time while I am riding.  Usually, I ignore them.  Sometimes, they chase.  If they stop at the edge of their 'turf', I ignore them.  If they chase continually and aggressively, I stop and deal with them.  The one time I did not stop it was the one time I have been bitten since I was about 14.  The dog I ignored while it chased and chased for a block was a little old lady's Yipping Rat Purse Chi-annoyah.  Unfortunately, I had to stop for a car at the intersection.  And it left me a couple of nice holes in my calf.  The lady runs up to me to explain her precious is harmless.  And I have to show her the bite marks.  Luckily, it had its shot tags.  I griped at the lady and then went home.  The lesson is one from Musashi:  Pay Attention, even unto trifles.

Now, the question for owners of dogs who like to be dominant and show it?  This one has come up for me from the other side.  I've had dogs come up and try to establish dominance.  I either ignore them as if they did not exist or turn and back them down. if they continue to try to push it.  I've come close but have never been bit while backing a dog down.  On a handful of occasions, I've been a hair's breadth from giving a dog a defensive cuff or leg check. The problems are not with the dogs but their owners.  I've been threatened by more than one owner with violence if I struck their dog.   And then I have to deal with a person as well as a dog.

So, for owners and trainers of those dominant dogs, has anyone considered how to react to their dog attempting to establish dominance one someone who is not willing to be dominated?  Telling the other human to wait for you to get the dog is like telling a lady to wait for the police if threatened or attacked.  It's the exact same logic.  To be clear, we're discussing something moving beyond wooofing phase and is moving into touch and attack. 

I'm just wondering what other's think?  With the exception of that Yipper that was partially my fault because I was arrogantly dismissive and careless of what looked to be a non-threat, I've rarely have any issues with a dog for more than 5 minutes.  Mostly, dogs of all levels will approach and make friends with me after a few minutes.  But I do remember times from my early twenties when that was not the case.  And being threated with violence and firearms from angry owners of dogs that try to control more than their own yard.  You can take the end of the statement about either the owner or the dog.  *grin*

Any thoughts?

[maija]

I've learned a huge amount from our dog over the years. Him and my then fiance came as a pair, and Khan, a muttly Lab, Pitbull, Akita, mix, probably about a year and a half old was not overly impressed by the change in social dynamic.
I knew that pretty early on we would have to settle the status issue, and one morning him an I were out in the yard on our own and he started to piss on my motorcycle LOL. I vocalized and stepped towards him, telling him to stop, and he just looked at me and bared his teeth. I had a very clear moment knowing that I needed to win or things would be difficult from then on, and I grabbed him by the scruff and chucked him on the ground with my knee on his neck. He bit me round the wrist, but not with any serious intent, and pretty quickly relaxed once on the ground.
What I remember most was thinking that we now needed to establish a friendship and not to hold on to this moment - that was a great lesson for me. Clear intent, then let it go.
That was 10 years ago, and though he's still more attached to my better half than me, we work together fine now. Occasionally he still might push the boundaries, but will comply without any drama.
I've learned a huge amount from watching him, looking at how he understands the world, and observing the direct nature of canine behavior. My appreciation for the human/canine friendship has only increased over time, especially when out in nature. I never thought of myself as a 'dog person' but have certainly become one now.

[sgtmac_46]

The discussion of establishing dominance and stories about it being done has made me think of a story and a question for those who own alpha dogs.

I do a good bit of bicycling.  Dogs bark at me all the time while I am riding.  Usually, I ignore them.  Sometimes, they chase.  If they stop at the edge of their 'turf', I ignore them.  If they chase continually and aggressively, I stop and deal with them.  The one time I did not stop it was the one time I have been bitten since I was about 14.  The dog I ignored while it chased and chased for a block was a little old lady's Yipping Rat Purse Chi-annoyah.  Unfortunately, I had to stop for a car at the intersection.  And it left me a couple of nice holes in my calf.  The lady runs up to me to explain her precious is harmless.  And I have to show her the bite marks.  Luckily, it had its shot tags.  I griped at the lady and then went home.  The lesson is one from Musashi:  Pay Attention, even unto trifles.

Now, the question for owners of dogs who like to be dominant and show it?  This one has come up for me from the other side.  I've had dogs come up and try to establish dominance.  I either ignore them as if they did not exist or turn and back them down. if they continue to try to push it.  I've come close but have never been bit while backing a dog down.  On a handful of occasions, I've been a hair's breadth from giving a dog a defensive cuff or leg check. The problems are not with the dogs but their owners.  I've been threatened by more than one owner with violence if I struck their dog.   And then I have to deal with a person as well as a dog.

So, for owners and trainers of those dominant dogs, has anyone considered how to react to their dog attempting to establish dominance one someone who is not willing to be dominated?  Telling the other human to wait for you to get the dog is like telling a lady to wait for the police if threatened or attacked.  It's the exact same logic.  To be clear, we're discussing something moving beyond wooofing phase and is moving into touch and attack.  

I'm just wondering what other's think?  With the exception of that Yipper that was partially my fault because I was arrogantly dismissive and careless of what looked to be a non-threat, I've rarely have any issues with a dog for more than 5 minutes.  Mostly, dogs of all levels will approach and make friends with me after a few minutes.  But I do remember times from my early twenties when that was not the case.  And being threated with violence and firearms from angry owners of dogs that try to control more than their own yard.  You can take the end of the statement about either the owner or the dog.  *grin*

Any thoughts?

 Actually, some of what you are describing isn’t entirely dominance.  When you’re on a bicycle dogs are operating in prey drive, not rank drive.  It’s rank drive that is the issue with dominance.  

Some dogs have tremendous prey drive, and will chase a moving object, barking and biting.  When dogs confront you barking when you’re near their property, they are exhibiting territorial aggression…….again, not dominance.

A dog that barks and growls when it feels threatened is exhibiting defensive aggression.  Defense, again, is a separate drive and motive.

A dog that is willing to fight and take on a stranger who is being aggressive is exhibiting fight drive, which is a bit of a combination of prey, defense, and overall confidence.

Dominance or rank drive is the desire to challenge other members of the pack for pack position.  Dominant dogs are difficult dogs for owners because they will often challenge the owners.

Dominance isn’t entirely desirable in protection dog, though it can be worked with.   A dog can be a very tough dog, with very good, strong drives, and still not be ‘dominant’.  Likewise a dog can be a little ankle biting wuss and be very dominant.  Of course if you have a TRULY confident strong dog who is also very dominant you have potential problems that require a strong handler.

The issue with all of the above is one of obedience training.  The stronger the drives, the more important the obedience training.   A dog that is properly obedience trained will not bite unless the alpha back member initiates it, or a situation in which it is clear that biting is allowed occurs.  The problem with dominant dogs is that they are harder to obedience train.

[sgtmac_46]

A word should be mentioned about dog behavior and possible aggression.  Dogs who are barking at you, but not otherwise restrained, are exhibiting a threat display, much like a rattlesnake.  If they were confident enough in the situation to bite they wouldn't be barking.  Truly tough dogs don't bark to get you to run away or back off, they simply attack.  There are few dogs out there like that, but they do exist, and if you ever are confronted by the bad side of one it's something you'll never forget. 

Tail positioning is an important part of reading dog behavior, as well.  Contrary to popular belief, tail up doesn't mean 'friendly'......the tail is more an indicator of confidence in the situation.  If a dog is comfortable it will go with a high tail.  If a dog is uncomfortable or agitated, the tail drops.  If a dog is truly in submissive fear the tail tucks between the legs.  Again, it doesn't necessarily mean the dogs are friendly when the tail is up. 

A dog can be retreating from a fight, and be completely comfortable with that, thus the term 'High tailing it out of here'.  A dog can also be quite comfortable tearing your arm off, and have a high tail the entire time, if it's a truly tough dog who's comfortable biting people.

Body positioning is also a good indicator.  Dogs read body language better than people.  A dominant dog faces other dogs and people head on.  A submissive dog has a more sideways posture.  Most folks have seen one dominant dog T up on another dog, who blades away.  They read this in people which is how they 'smell' fear.  They don't 'smell' it, they see it.

[sgtmac_46]

A good example of a dogs confident with biting people.  Notice no threat display barking, simply attack.  These are confident, tough dogs with high fight drive.  Dogs that are barking can be almost always be backed down by not retreating, and standing your ground.  They don't want a fight, it's a threat display.  A truly confident dog that wants to attack doesn't give a threat display.  Never turn your back on a dog.

http://blutube.policeone.com/Media/6230-Cop-hits-attacking-Rottweiler-with-TASER/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd5uvK8TfOA   

Notice the high tail position of the pitbull........very confident while biting a human.  He got wacked once with a club in the head, disengaged momentarily, but once he got over the initial effect of being hit, he went right back to the attack, tail still high even after being wacked.

Another kind of funny one that illustrates the point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd3677if7PU

[Crafty_Dog]

Quite off topic, , ,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f309fSTWYo4

[sgtmac_46]

Quite off topic, , ,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f309fSTWYo4

That video is a classic!  Just about every GSD or Malinois i've ever owned would attack water just like that.  One Malinois I had made it down right dangerous to have a water hose!  He'd tackle you trying to attack the water!

[Crafty_Dog]

http://downloads.thedaily.com/ui-images/2011/05/05/new-dog-story-screenshot-ss.jpg

[For_Crafty_Dog]

Note...These videos may not appear (embedded) till the forum admin can set permissions -  please check back shortly...

http://dogbrothers.com/kostas/Perro Mexicano.wmv

http://dogbrothers.com/kostas/Perro Gallego.wmv

[For_Crafty_Dog]

[Crafty_Dog]

I did not find the reliance upon treats necessary, but I did pick up some ideas here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWZJKL4pv-w&fbclid=IwAR0Tg9bh6eb4_RRAuMOjp1foGCCe8w8lIVM53cS4wd0v9hHCsgkGywEMMCA