MMA Thread

[Crafty_Dog]

Expound on that please-- what's the story?

[selfcritical]

Before he got his MT coach, he was literally watching clips off of youtube and trying to pull them off(and succeeding) apparently one of those slips was from Ong Bak.

[Crafty_Dog]

Was that the punch to the thigh with a spinning backfist/elbow?  I saw that in his DQ loss on Saturday , , ,

[selfcritical]

Yes, although I was more impressed with his "Single leg to spinning elbow" in the Bonnar fight.

[Rarick]

It is the self taught guys that can be the most interesting,  I am waiting to see if some one can make TMNT jitsu work.

Jon Jones has awesome potential, he just needs to learn control.  The judges sent a loud and clear message too. If you use an illegal technique, sensibly banned or not, it will cost you the fight.

[Crafty_Dog]

Any comments on Kimbo in TUF this past season?

[Rarick]

Any comments on Kimbo in TUF this past season?

I am going to have to learn a new dialect of english, other than that he is willing, and he has obviously used the time on the show to get his ground game up to snuff.

[Crafty_Dog]

I was surprised at how little answer he had to kicks on his front leg.   

Also, my eyesight is not what it used to be, but does the man have completely fallen arches?

[Guard Dog]

New idea- Conspire to put copies of the KT material in Jon Jones' christmas stocking. I'm highly amused by anyone who manages to pull off moves on pro fighters because they saw tony jaa do them in a movie.

When he came down last year we touched base briefly on some KT type techniques, nothing specific.  He is very aware of the outside footwork (Trigg 101).  From my experience, he's also very open and has been exposed to Kali footwork via one of my other instructors.  We could arrange this if you wanted Guro! 

[Crafty_Dog]

 

[Crafty_Dog]

From MMATorch.com

Staff Columnists
COLUMN: Death of the Guard - Changes to the MMA game evident at UFC 109, especially in Sonnen vs. Marquardt
By
Feb 8, 2010 - 3:32:20 PM




By Jason Amadi, MMATorch Columnist

In a post-UFC 109 interview done by Mike Straka, Jon Fitch made quite a bold statement. Fitch stated that the closed guard in MMA was "dead." He said that unless you're Shinya Aoki or Demian Maia, if you get taken down by a strong wrestler, you need to get back to feet or suffer a beating.

While that may rattle a few within the jiu jitsu community, he's completely correct. Over the years we've seen MMA evolve many times. While some feel that the sport is largely the same and has been since the institution of the Unified Rules, fans who really look at fights from just a few short years ago, and compare to fights now, will notice quite a few changes.

For one, the mount is no longer the most dominant position to finish a fight. I can't remember the last time a fight was finished with strikes from the mount position. Side control seems to be the preferred position to finish off opponents.

Made famous by Ivan Salavary (as Joe Rogan loves to remind us of this, but I feel Matt Hughes popularized it further), trapping the arms of your opponent in side control, and then raining down blows to the face gives much less space for escape. Even if you don't land significant blows, the referee is forced to stop the fight because you can't escape.

At this point, the mount is fairly low percentage. As we saw with Phil Davis and Brian Stann, the trend these days when mounted is to simply give up your back and hang on to the gloves of your opponent, then hope you can explode over into their guard and reverse momentum that way. Sure, Davis didn't have the best mount, but the survival techniques showed by Stann (guy really needs to practice the hip escape, though) are now likely common practice at all the top teams in MMA.

The guard is in trouble for sure. I agree completely with Fitch, and feel that unless you are a top submission artist, the caliber of Demian Maia, Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza, Shinya Aoki, Dustin Hazelett, or Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, having a top wrestler in your guard is death.

At the top level, wrestlers are so good at submission defense, as we saw with Chael Sonnen, they no longer have any fear of the guard. Nate Marquardt is a black belt in jiu jitsu, but could get nothing done against Sonnen from inside his guard and paid the price for it.

Jon Fitch has made a career of being inside a tough BJJ black belt's guard and surviving. Tito Ortiz made a name for himself for punishing guys inside the guard as well, and the list of wrestlers who do so just grows more and more by the day. I don't think I even need to discuss the problems that could arise should you find a monster wrestler like Shane Carwin or Brock Lesnar in your guard (Minotauro Nogueira is a brave, brave man).

But the big story of UFC 109 was Nate Marquardt being battered from inside his guard by Chael Sonnen. I think the next evolution in MMA is the rubber guard becoming common practice for everyone involved. We're still seeing 1997 style guards in 2010. It just doesn't work in MMA anymore.

The rubber guard was designed to control fighters from within your guard, break down their posture, and look for submissions from unusual places using flexibility. Anyone familiar with Shinya Aoki's handiwork has seen him perform breathtaking submissions (literally) from the rubber guard.

The problem is that a lot of fighters, who aren't necessarily raised in the discipline of BJJ from the start, don't necessarily have the flexibility. Dustin Hazelett's submission of Tamdon McCrory at UFC 91 was the last time I saw the rubber guard used effectively in the UFC. Generally, we see fighters feebly attempt to grab their ankles, only after having sustained a beating, and then they realize after a few tries that they haven't practiced this technique nearly enough, so they wind up giving up.

Unless a meteor hits the UFC, and wipes out all its elite wrestlers, we're going to be in for a long reign of terror by wrestlers. Couture vs. Coleman wasn't the only indication that we're back in 1997, folks, because the guard in MMA has been rendered almost completely ineffective at the top level.

[Jon Fitch photo credit Wade Keller (c) MMATorch]

© Copyright by MMATorch.com

[CrazyCossack]

I don't agree with the closed guard is dead assessment at all. I think the problem is that too many people are being considered good at jiu jitsu when they really aren't.  It seems that every single fighter that enters the octagon nowadays is a BJJ blackbelt.  While they might have been given these blackbelts there is in my opinion a major difference and major discrepancy in the skills of a fighter (or even wrestler) who becomes a bjj blackbelt, rather than a bjj blackbelt who becomes a fighter.

Think about all the controversy that Rashad Evan's newly awarded black belt caused, the biggest justification for it was that he wasn't submitted by Thiago Silva, another blackbelt, so he must deserve it. While it's true he won the grappling portion of it, how well do you think Rashad would have done if for whatever reason he was playing guard against thiago silva, he would have likely got smashed, then people would say: "Closed Guard is dead, Rashad is a black belt and got killed".

But does Rashad have BJJ blackbelt skills from his guard? Does he even have them from the top?  I'd say no to both points, do I think he could out grapple people who are bjj blackbelts, yes, I think he could, but thats not his jiu jitsu.

The same goes for Nate Marquardt, yes he was awarded a blackbelt in bjj, but do we really know how good his jiu jitsu is?  I know BJJ blackbelts that would be blue belts at clubs only hours away from me, when their guards aren't effective against elite wrestlers, will we question the guard? I dont think so.

I'm kind of rambling here but.... the idea is that theres nothing wrong with the position its that people are being given too much credit for their skills, and therefore their expectations are too high.

In my opinion its akin to saying that fighting with sticks in the largo or medio ranges is dead in stickfighting because so many people can crash through that bubble with a roof block and start their clinch/grappling games. Are those ranges dead? of course not, but you might think so if you saw someone with excellent closing fighting someone with average skills in the longer ranges.

[Crafty_Dog]

Very good points.

I posted this article not because I agree with all of it, but to start a conversation. 

For example, how does the (closed) guard game differ when the heel kicks to the kidneys, spine, back of neck, back of head are allowed?  Ask Renzo Gracie how he felt after Frank Shamrock's knee from bottom to the back of his head.

[CrazyCossack]

I'm not sure how much the kicks to the kidneys would affect closed guard in modern mma, with the fights being 15 minutes, I think they were much more applicable when the fights went until someone got finished, I think they are more effective in a war of attrition strategy, ala the gracies. Recently one of Rorion's sons (Rener I believe) talked about this in an interview, and was saying that closed guard, the war of attrition and defensive mindset is what seperates Gracie Jiu-Jitsu from BJJ, which they say is too focused on the sportive aspect of jiu jitsu.  The idea that as the weaker person, closed guard is one of the few ways you can defeat your larger more physically gifted opponents. His example was Brock Lesnar, and that if anyone went into a fight and tried to match him physically and battle him back and forth they would lose, their only chance would be to play closed guard for a long time, defend, defend, defend, and when their opponent (Brock) was worn out, then press their advantage. I think Heel kicks are a big part of this strategy.

As for the slaps, smacks, to the back of the head and spine, (cervical shots), I think they would make a major difference in the fights, maybe even knockouts from the bottom? Sweeping someone who has had their brain rattled would likely be alot easier than sweeping a fresh guy.

On another note, I think knee's should be allowed on the ground whether from the bottom or top, however I do think that if they were allowed Renzo may have been watching for them and might not have got caught, although admittedly I like Renzo alot more than Shamrock lol. Heck, we would probably have a different winner of the Marquardt/Sonnen fight if they were allowed.

[Jonobos]

Wrestling isn't really new to mma. It has been there from pretty early on. Everyone is learning jiujitsu including the wrestlers. The subs are not a secret anymore. What most bjj guys fail to do is dive deeply into wrestling and that is why we see the imbalance. The difference with guys like BJ Penn and Jacare is that they have an amazing standing clinch either in the form of takedowns, or takedown defense. Only the cream of the crop top level wrestlers have the advantage. Hell, Hendo could not even capitalize on Anderson Silva being on his back and that was in half guard... a position that wrestlers are known for laying down some serious damage. My thoughts.

[CrazyCossack]

What would someone's wrestling ability have to do with their closed guard subs and sweeps?

And the subs haven't been a secret for a long time, and theres no secret in jiu jitsu academies either, the blue belts to black belts are all doing the same moves, its how well they are done that counts. For me it goes back to whether or not people are actually good at jiu jitsu rather than just being given credit for it if they can avoid armbars.  The other thing, in regards to jiu jitsu guys not taking wrestling seriously enough, it's almost impossible for them to reach a level at wrestling where it would compare to the wrestlers already in the UFC, unless your GSP your not going to suddenly outwrestle the wrestlers. 

I think Rickson Gracie explains this point pretty well with this quote from an interview.

Rickson "I don't look for to knockout someone standing up, I look for to not be in a position to be knocked out myself. I look for the position to take my opponent where I want to be. That is my concept. The day that I think that I have to train kickboxing to beat a kickboxing champion, that will be the day I lose.

13. So you don't think that by training in kickboxing, that it can in some way help you to neutralize the kickboxer's game?

Rickson: Much to the contrary. Show me a jiu-jitsu fighter who trains kickboxing who has an advantage over a kickboxer standing up.....and then maybe I'll change my opinion. But this never happens. They always end up trying to do the technique wrong., end up clinch anyway) and lose big opportunities."

(I got that from the thread "rickson predicts the stand and wang phenomenon" from the mma.tv underground forums)

While I realize the importance of cross training, its often the guys who are masters of one thing that are champions over a bunch of jack of all trades type guys. One of my jiu jitsu instructors explained Demian Maia's strategy (for the nate quarry fight) to me like :

Demian Maia sweeps world class blackbelts in ADCC and Mundials regularly.

No one else in the middle weight division is even close to these world class blackbelts in their half guard top game.

Demian pulls half guard, gets the sweep easily and is on top, then he will destroy them with his far superior Jiu Jitsu from the top.

This is exactly what he did to Nate Quarry, do any of us think Demian Maia would have won if he tried to outwrestle quarry to get on top, or rock him on the feet then take him down?  Maia is one of my favourite fighters and if he tried to strike or wrestle with Quarry he would have got killed.

If you want your closed guard (or any guard) to be effective in mma, dont train your wrestling (which doesnt have a closed guard) or your kickboxing, train your closed guard.

Just like I wouldn't expect a wrestler or kickboxer to pull guard.

My 2 cents (or maybe thats like 4 cents cause its so long)

[Jonobos]

You bring up some good points, but Chuck survived a loooooooong time with a deep understanding of takedown defense. I didn't say you need to wrestle guys to the ground, or learn the wrestling top game. But learning how to stuff a shot and make them pay for it is something that many fighters have successfully developed.

I definitely agree that most of these mma black belts are simply not that good. But at the same time the days of Rickson and the one trick pony fighters are gone.

[Howling Dog]

Woof,

You bring up some good points, but Chuck survived a loooooooong time with a deep understanding of takedown defense.

Chuck's wrestling is highly under rated. He was a good  college wrestler. Cal. poly sci. I beleive.
He just likeS to stand and bang. 
My opinion, Crazy Cossack made many real good points.
                     C-HD

[Rarick]

The point of MMA is TOOLBOX.  What do you have in yours?  That will determine how the fighting style you choose works.  Champions have fighting styles that WORK, and they have the tools to at least defend from styles they do not know.  I see Crafty and the other Guros constantly checking Checking their Tools.  That is a credit to what is being built.

I see all the UFC fights, and some of the fighters with a "good" ground game, really are "defense Blackbelts".   They can pull guard and not be submitted, but they cannot do anything from the guard.   They can stand and strike without being easy to knock out, but have no knockout ability themselves.  Each Fighter has talents either trained or natural and MMA is as much about how those are used as about the base styles.

The DBMA stuff I see (am am working on) seems to be pretty eclectic and has moves that I have never seen used in the octogon, I would love to see it work.   The same applies to Aikido (which I tried for a while, but their tribal heirarchy demands to the point of oppresion from my point of view,) which lacked "safe live sparring" which is why I left.

One of the things that is leaving UFC, and other MMA is the "Testing Spirit" that was in the original format.  Anderson Silva had that belt defense where the other fighter was expecting him to just fall into guard.  Anderson failed to keep faith with the "Real as it Gets" aspect by not showing the fighter the error of his unrealistic expectations, by not putting on a punishment show.

There was another fight beteen a "defense black belt"/ wrestler and "the Dentist" Neer.  The werestler was able to take Neer down at will, and was able to control the top.  Neer was unable to pull the hip escape/sweep.  Neer was expecting the referee to stand the fight up, but the Ref (maybe?) recognized that "rules exploiting" was going on, and wanting to be true to "real" was not allowing that kind of manipulation.  Neer lost a very frustrating fight because he failed to control the octogon, and therefore dominate the other fighter...........

That is why I do not necessarily like "Big Country", he has the fitness, but he is rules lawyering to win.  I hope one of the other heavyweights can fix that.

[CrazyCossack]

I always thought chuck was a much better wrestler than a kickboxer, look at his record, all the guys he has lost too with the exception of jeremy horn were better strikers, Overeem, Rampage twice, Shogun, maybe even Rashad?  Although admittedly I should be the last one knocking anyone's kickboxing ability.

As far as Josh Neer, and I think the fight you were talking about was against Kurt Pellegrino, IMO he was doing everything to try to get action started in that fight, including punching himself in the face..... (couldnt figure out how to post the gif, so go to this link, its worth it)

http://blogs.chron.com/fighting/neerdumbasssb65374666bv8.gif

[Jonobos]

These are all probably fair assessments. But the question remains whether or not someone can reverse engineer some of the skillsets that make the wrestlers successful? BJJ will certainly help me get up from the ground by understanding the body mechanics of how to move on the bottom. But what happens when I want a little something extra to keep me up off the ground long enough to deal a little punishment of my own, maybe create the necessary opportunity to access an equalizer? I think Rarick has a good point that it is all about a toolbox. I may never be able to achieve the level of collegate wrestlers, but can I get enough experience to make a difference when it really matters?

[Crafty_Dog]

In a related vein, in DBMA "Kali Tudo" (tm) we integrate certainly wrestling techniques (e.g. the one we call "The Rico" because I learned it from Rico Chiaparelli).   What my interaction with Kenny Johnson has brought to KT is, inter alia, a good efficient MMA based version of a wrestling double leg and single leg, who uses his head in a different way than pure sport wrestling.  We want to have this not only in its own right (for fights wherein we are sure that no weapons are involved) but also to make sure that we are good training partners for our training partners as we work our standing KT striking game.

One of the great temptations for a KT player is to tunnel vision a bit on the structural advantages I believe our there in upper body striking (i.e. kicks present a separate question) and get hit by a good wrestling level change and shoot.  Indeed it was my experience with some of my structures getting hit in this fashion by Kenny that led me to focus on bringing the stake (which really is a version of a bolo bunch done to kali footwork), with the idea that as the third beat of a triplet it would be either hitting (uppercut to chin or shovel hook to body) or nailing the incoming face (think Arlovski flying chin first into Fedor's overhand right) of the shooter.

I would have not known this had I not tested myself against good MMA wrestling skills.

Also from Kenny is a good MMA based sprawl.

The Adventure continues!

[Crafty_Dog]

Don't know anything about Hardy , , ,

[drammel]

Hey who is gonna win?   GSP or Hardy?

GSP by anyhting he wants. If Hardy wins it will be ala Serra, just going for broke and throwing bombs.

[Crafty_Dog]

GSP is quite impressive, so that sounds about right-- but who is Hardy?  Whom has he beat?  What are his strengths and weaknesses?

[CrazyCossack]

Hardy is gonna get mauled, it wont even be close..... Yes I'm aware Serra had his lightning flash KO, but its not gonna happen twice, GSP by domination.

[tim nelson]

we were out on a wide creek flat with lots of willow shrubs, some up to wrist diameter, and were cutting the stems/trunks before the buds opened so the new growth would be long and flexible without any forks and branching for basketry in the future, producing nice basket material,

well while swinging the machete around i was experimenting with the stick swinging i was used to, to get the machete to cut effectively took something a little different in the arc, more of a cutting arc than i notice with a stick, and a downward swing made the trunk split more often, so i decided to try the bolo swing and it was quite fun practicing the bolo with a machete cutting stuff while getting a task done, i sure wouldn't want to get hit by a bolo swing, the force with the blade was hitting hard through the wood                tim

[Crafty_Dog]

Woof Tim:

Good to hear from you.  Good conversation--  May I ask you post in in The Bolo Game thread?

Thank you!

[tim nelson]

surely, seems to have been a brain fart figuring bolo would be housed in mma thread

[Sebresos]

I always thought chuck was a much better wrestler than a kickboxer, look at his record, all the guys he has lost too with the exception of jeremy horn were better strikers, Overeem, Rampage twice, Shogun, maybe even Rashad?  Although admittedly I should be the last one knocking anyone's kickboxing ability.

As far as Josh Neer, and I think the fight you were talking about was against Kurt Pellegrino, IMO he was doing everything to try to get action started in that fight, including punching himself in the face..... (couldnt figure out how to post the gif, so go to this link, its worth it)

http://blogs.chron.com/fighting/neerdumbasssb65374666bv8.gif
 

Chuck never lost to Overeem, I think Chuck knocked him out!?  Yup back in 03'

[Sebresos]

 If Mir sticks to a game plan he has a good chance against Carwin. Mir likes to stand and bang, it won't take much for Carwin to knock him out. Carvin vs. Gonzaga for example, Carwin just extended his arm and knocked the man out. It looked like a dingy little punch. It won't take much.

[Sebresos]

Hardy is gonna get mauled, it wont even be close..... Yes I'm aware Serra had his lightning flash KO, but its not gonna happen twice, GSP by domination.

The brass at the UFC doesn't know who to put in front of this man. GSP has cleaned out his division. I like GSP but this fight barely registers on my radar....yawn!

[Sebresos]

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/Pros-Pick-Vera-vs-Jones-23289

Now ths fight makes sense, Vera vs. Jones.

[Crafty_Dog]

I was very intrigued to see this fight.  The fight was shaping up nicely when that nasty elbow to the temple or occular socket brought it to an immediate close.

Also interesting was the response to the punch to the eye in an earlier fight.

[Stickgrappler]

re:  vera x jones - if you are gonna have guard, control that top man's posture... it's raining punches and elbows - one of them is bound to get through.

[Sebresos]

Jon "Jones" Bones is good. Machida, Rua or whoever else they put in front of him, will have their hands full.

[Crafty_Dog]

I now realize who Carwin is.  Whoa! 

[selfcritical]

In particular, you'll note that those weren't Greco throws that Jones used to toss the olympic-caliber vera.

And Jones doesn't have a judo coach.

He watched some videos on judo, and went to some public classes at cornell.

And then just did it.

[Sebresos]

The guy is good. He was setting up Vera for the left. He reached back acting like he was trying to move Veras right leg, then boom, here comes the left.

[Stickgrappler]

re:  jones' throw -- not my gif, found it elsewhere. don't want to kill the bandwidth of the original owner's so i'm not posting the pic. will post the link for it though.

http://i44.tinypic.com/14ttwdi.gif

props to the gif maker

[Stickgrappler]

re: mir x carwin - OMG!

[Crafty_Dog]

Wating for the fight I thought Mir too relaxed, and Carsen perhaps too worried  I thought Carsen showed excellent knees to the thighs up against the fence.

Who was that a-hole who kepty applying the heel hook after his opponent tapped and the ref starting pulling him off!?  VERY wrong    I want to know his name so I can cheer when karma bites him in the ass.

PS:  Good times watching the crowd at the bar here in Toronto cheer its man on.

[Sebresos]

Did Mir have any offense in that fight. Every time Mir loses its in the same fashion. He either gets the jump on the guy or the guy gets the jump on him. If his opponent gets the smallest edge Mir seems to lay down.

[Point Dog]

Who was that a-hole who kepty applying the heel hook after his opponent tapped and the ref starting pulling him off!?  VERY wrong    I want to know his name so I can cheer when karma bites him in the ass.

Said A-hole has been suspended for 3 months...

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/UFC-111-Analysis-The-Main-Card-23525

[Crafty_Dog]

C-PD:

Thanks for the news-- and my disrespect to Sherdog for missing the point.

[Crafty_Dog]

Well, what I saw was the opponent vigorously and clearly tapping on the A-hole in submssion, and the A-hole merrily continuing to crank and then not immediately responding to the ref.  The man knew exactly what a heel hook is and what it does.  His behavior is reprehensible, and the attitude displayed in the Sherdog mini-piece earns disrespect as well.

[Stickgrappler]

Sherdog's piece in question:

While it’s arguable that the Brazilian Top Team fighter could have released the hold a second earlier, it is questionable why the New Jersey State Athletic Control Board has suspended him for three months for doing his job -- which is fighting until the referee says break. Not unnecessarily injuring your opponent goes without saying, but hindering a fighter’s work like that is unheard of.

Joe Rogan was chastisizing Palhares all the way... Rogan counted how many seconds during one of the replays that Palhares kept the heel hook on. It was 5 secs after the tap and IIRC, the ref came in to yank Palhares off after 2 secs.

edit:  click link for animated gif -- not my link or gif -- props to the gifmaker

http://img.mixedmartialarts.com/method=get&s=rousimar-palhares.gif

[Crafty_Dog]

Sorry, I do not agree at all.

I get the bit about risks.  That said I prefer a fighter that does not take advantage of any time lag in the referee's arrival after an opponent is KO'd over one who dishes out gratuitous shots to an already unconscious man.

Pulhares's behavior here presents an entirely different question.  Submission was clearly made , , , and ignored.  THEN the ref sought to break the hold, and was resisted.   Palhares has to be held as knowing the lasting damage that a heel hook is intended to do, and he did it.  To hold him accountable for what he did IMO has nothing to do with hindsight.  Indeed it is precisely the egregiousness of his behavior that eliminates that issue.

I get some of these guys have "a mean streak".  That is PRECISELY why they need to be held accountable with a clear violation such as was the case here.

[CrazyCossack]

Just to add my two cents.

First off, he wasn't holding it for nearly as long as Joe Rogan made it out to be, when Joe Rogan counted to 5 seconds he was watching the slow motion replay, which I think he did mention and realize after he did it. Although I definetly think it was held too long.

There has also been a few instances in the UFC of people "fake tapping" where they tap twice or make like there tapping, then slip out when their opponent momentarily releases their grip,  I think CB Dollaway has been accused of this a few times.  Although once again, I don't think there is anyone who would consider that close to a fake tap, (I think he tapped nine times).

I liked Palhares going into this, but I'm not that big of a fan now, I can see the logic in holding it until the ref stops the fight, but in this case it was pretty extreme, especially considering it was a heel hook.

What's also interesting is that he was given a 90 day suspension, but what kind of punishment is that? Most of these guys only fight ever 3 or 4 months anyway, its likely he wouldn't have fought for 90 days anyway, this is in comparison to Babalu who got completely FIRED for holding a choke too long.

I'd much rather have someone hold a choke for 2 extra seconds on me, than have someone do the same thing with a heelhook.

[Crafty_Dog]

I'd be delighted to see a more severe penalty.