the titles of the teachers in the fillipino martial arts ("Kali")

[Guest]

observation 1: who cares if it's KALI or KALIs, you still haven't offered any proof!!!

I don't need to offer proof.  I don't have a problem with it.  Seems likes you do and continue to.  Obviously something needs to be proven to you and you, in the immortal words of the Rolling Stones, can't get no satisfaction.

observation 2: sorry, didn't know you were that sensitive. (and caviar does taste like shit!!!, but that?s just my proletariat taste)

Nah - you weren't hurting my feelings at all.  Apology accepted, though.  So then you admit that you are plebian.  Looks like we straightened that out.

observation 3: you needn't write a whole essay illustrating how much you've been hurt by this very enlightening discussion. instead you should've used all that energy offering relevant historical proofs.  but you didn't or couldn?t.

Actually, it is getting pretty funny.  As for what I should do, I don't think I should have to do anything.  Whether I didn't or couldn't is my perogative.  Although you are correct  about conserving energy.  I have been squandering it some of it in replying.

luckily though, Sun Helmet, has offered a great outline of explanations (thank you by the way, Sun Helmet).  i guess it's safe to assume that KALI as a title has no historical factual relevance, but instead has a modern symbolic meaning which is used to envelope the whole of filipino martial arts today, while also giving an 'indigenous' sounding/exotic roll to the tongue.

[/quote]

I think you better go back and read it again.  It may be safe for you to assume what you want to believe although I don't think that was what the gist of what he was trying to convey.  It did not come across to me that way.

[/quote]

if eveyone agrees to this, then i think our discussion is finished.  KALI has no historical, cultural evidence, but it has taken a modern connotation.  KALI has come to be the arbirary modern word to replace the Spanish/Filipinized term, eskrima.  but, some would rather just use the 'foreign' traditional eskrima, than having to create a new arbitrary word like KALI.

[/quote]

I have not seen a consensus at all relating to what  you are offering as an opinion.  in fact, it seems to be the contrary.  It looks like you have come to this summation all by your lonesome at this point.

[/quote]

if people still think they can prove KALI's historicity, please to so without personal attacks--this is an academic discussion, not a full contact sparring session (try to use that other powerful tool located inside your head).

[/quote]

Funny - I thought it was just trolling.  If it is an academic discussion why not contribute some of your own proof citing academic texts rather than inferring your own specualtion?  If you claim it was your opinion, that is one thing.  You came across that what you say is fact.  When somebody's answer did not satisfactorily fit your paradigm, you skew it to your perspective or re-interpret it.  If you are going to rebuttal anybody, why not offer some facts of your own instead of being argumentative or provocative?  As for tools, I meet too many of them.  I prefer to keep them out of my head.

[Question Everything]

PG Edgar Sulite from an interview in Martial Arts presents "Filipino Martial Arts" (Graciella Casillas on cover)

ES: "In Mindanao, "kali" was the term used, but that doesn't mean it was the only one. We must remember that according to the region where you live, the terms change and others apply such as 'estocada' and 'pagkalikali' and more"

Amongst the informed, the depth and breadth of PG ES's travels and trainings in the RP are well known, and many of these people may have heard of his book "Masters of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima", an amazing collection of interviews and essays on various masters of the arts from around the RP.

Ah yes, the exoticizing of Mindanao once again... I was born and raised in Kabacan, Mindanao, located a few hours away from Cotabato City.  My parents were Mormon missionaries who went to Mindanao in the 1960s from Idaho.  Kabacan at this time was a focal point in Central Mindanao because of its newly established college?Mindanao Institute of Technology, later named Southern Mindanao University.  

The ethno-linguistic groups present in central Mindanao, then and now, were the Bisayas, Tagalogs, Ilongos, Kapangpangan and Ilokanos.  These represent the colonist groups encouraged by the newly formed Republic to populate Mindanao.  The major native ethno-linguistic groups were the Magindanaws and the Maranaws, with some Tausugs.  They were Muslim-Filipinos.  In addition to these major groups were the indigenous Mano?bos, Atas, T?boli, and others.

These various groups were well represented in Kabacan because of the college.  Although, I?m not Filipino by blood, having grown up in a close knit small college town in Mindanao, I became Filipino.  This means, I not only learned the culture, but the various languages as well.  I grew up with Muslim and Christian neighbors.  At the age of 7, I was taught how to defend myself.  But the title Eskrima never came to mind, until I began spending my summer breaks in Cebu.  The term used by my teachers had always been Pangamut (?pang? means to use, ?kamut? is hand).  Roughly translated, Pangamut means to be good with ones? hands.

Interestingly enough, the word ?KALI? was never used.  One of my teachers was a mixture of Maranaw and Tausug, his mother being of the latter group.  Yet, they used another term?not KALI or Pagkalikali.  I would later learn of the title Kali when I attended the University of the Philippines in Diliman, Manila.  And then learned more about it when I came to the US to attend BYU, in Utah.

Basically, as a white guy who grew up in the Philippines, in addition to having spent my childhood in Kabacan and spent a considerable amount of time in academia, I have little authority in the realm of culture and linguistics.  So, allow me to pose another perspective to the word ?pagkalikali?.  

The word pagkalikali is a verb.  It became a verb because of its prefix ?pag?, which basically means ?to?.  The root is Kali.  The repetition of ?Kali? denotes temporal continuity, it?s a very small and subtle difference to just saying pagKali.  One can take the noun of dance which is Sayaw, add ?pag? in front of it and it becomes ?to dance?, pagSayaw.  Interestingly, because Filipino culture and language is more inclusive than exclusive, you can also use foreign words with ?pag?.  An example would be ?thank you?, you can filipinize it and say, ?pagtankyo? (pagtankyo ni lola, ?thank your grandmother?, or in tagalog, ?magtankyo ka ni lola?).  Let?s take a modern phenomenon now in the Philippines, which is texting via cellphones.  To filipinize this word one simply adds ?pag? and repeat the root?pagtexttext.

The point I?m trying to make is that filipinization of a word doesn?t automatically mean it?s indiginenously Filipino. Maybe the word kali had already made it?s way to the Philippines by the 1970s, via the US.  But, the fact is that Kali is not used in Mindanao.  Maybe if you can specify an ethno-linguistic group who uses Kali we can examine it further.  But, Kali is not Tagalog, Bisaya, Ilongo, Ilokano, Kapangpangan, Maranaw, Tausug, nor is it Magindanaw.

On another note, regarding the book "Masters of Kali, Arnis and Eskrima", I remember perusing through this book in a National Bookstore in Manila before I left for Utah in the early 90s.  What struck me more than any of it?s content was the number of Bisayan masters listed in the book.  I believe, if memory serves me right, of the 40 or so masters listed, about 35 or maybe less were Bisaya.  Many were from Cebu.

Which leads one to wonder why the word Kali, which is supposedly from Mindanao, is used as a title to one?s art, when historically the ?Moros? of Mindanao were arch enemies of the Bisayans.  Why would someone name their art using the enemy?s nomenclature?  Wasn?t this Sun Helmet?s point?  To use the nomenclature given by your enemy is the act of dishonoring one?s self.  According to Sun Helmet, this is why Kali from the Hindus of the Sri Visayan empire was used, to replace the titles given by the Spanish empire.

[Question Everything]

The Villabrille-Largusa people use the term Kali from a historical base. (see e.g. Tuhon Largusa in "DBMA#1: The Grandfathers Speak") and have vigorously defended its use over the internet, see e.g. various threads over the years on Ray Terry's "Eskrima Digest"). Get in touch with them if you like.

If memory serves me right, it was actually this group that began the use of KALI in the bay area, San Francisco.  Let?s examine Mr. Villabrille?s saga? but, instead of using martial arts lens, let?s use the perspective of anthropologists and historians.  Mr. Floro Villabrille was born in Bantayan Island, Cebu.  He was Bisaya.  The word Bantayan came from the root bantay, which means to watch.  Literally it means to watch over, a strong hold to protect.  Specifically to protect from marauding Moros pirates from Mindanao.  This is how the Illustrisimo clan gained their reputation as fighters and protectors of this island.  Mr. Villabrille was related to the Illustrisimos.  He was a proven fighter, but more interestingly he credits the evolution of his skills to a blind ?princess? of Samar from the ?PULAHANE? tribe.  

Having studied and read about documented indigenous groups in the Philippines, I can tell you for a fact that there is no such tribe.  But, there was a Pulahanes movement, which sprang forth after the demise and defeat of the Kapipunan at the hands of the American military (look into Ileto?s Pasyon and Mojares? the War Against the Americans).  The Pulahanes movement was a collection of different pseudo-Christian millenerian groups.  Pula means red, for the red they wore. In comparison, the other groups in the Visayas that defied the Americans were dubbed the Tulisanes, unlike the more religiously inclined Pulahanes, the Tulisanes were basically just bandits and highway men.  The Pulahanes were around from the early 1900s to 1920s.  The movement began in Samar and eventually spread through Leyte, Bohol, Cebu, Negros, and Panay.  There is no mention of Mindanao in the Villabrille saga, except for maybe fighting a handful of Moros while he was young.   But, once again, why would a Bisaya name his art after his enemies? words, if Kali did indeed come from Mindanao?

We?ve had various explanations, from Kamut Lihok, to the Hindu Goddess Kali, to Kali is somewhere in Mindanao ?you just need to find it yourself?.  But, still no concrete proof possessing the credence of a prima facie showing.  Which puts us in the same place.

[Spadaccino]

Question Everything,

You picked an apt username.

Very interesting info.

Peace,

TFS

[Crafty_Dog]

Thank you for the interesting posts QE.

A couple of questions and/or observations:

1) Like I've said, there's more than one reason for the use of the term and more than one theory as to its origin.  Sun Helmet has his reasons and that they do not include a historical basis, does not mean that there is not one.

2)  Allow me to repeat and underline what I have said from the beginning of this thread: I am not the man to make the historical case and that I have not done so proves nothing.  I have not sought to do so.  I have only directed you to other sources and challenged the assertion made here that the case against kali had been closed.  It has not.

3) I am not "exoticizing" diddly.  I've given sources, which I regard as worthy for those of you who want to follow up on it.  

4)  Concerning your analysis of the Villabrille use of the term, you mention the Illustrisimo clan.  Are you familiar with the portion of Tatang's Ilustrisimo's life spent with the Muslims and its importance to his art?

4)  Can you explain for us the repeated appearance of "kali"  in various FMA names from various dialects?  I understand your point that the term may have been imported and your theory that it may all have been brought back from 1970s California and diffused to the boondocks of the Philippines.   I confess this seems to me to be a bit of a stretch.  Are all of these terms of less than 30 years use?  Is there anyone out there who can comment upon all these terms?

5)  Any theories as to why Edgar Sulite (of whom I was a private student during all of his years in the US btw) saw the term as historically valid?  I assure you, he wasn't 'exoticizing' it.  

6)  Any theories as to why Roland Dantes, who has/does live in the south states that the term is indigenous?  Or is he exoticizing it too?

7) GT Leo Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia Kali uses the term.  Don't tell me he used to use the term "Arnis"-- I know that-- but feel free to contact him and ask him why he now uses 'Kali' and what he believes to be the historical basis of the term.  

No dig here QE, but the question must be asked: what sense do you have that being a white mormon may have affected your exposure to indigenous arts in Mindanao?  How much exposure did you have?  Again, no personal dig.

For those of you looking for "proof", my sense of it is that there is much in the history of the Philippines that cannot be "proved".  We know of sophisiticated ancient Filipino alphabets, yet have virtually no record of them or what they were used to write.  We know that the Spaniards sought to destroy much in this regard.  We know who wrote most of the history we do have and gave them the name of their art.  

This leaves oral tradition-- and the Filipino tradition of arguing about language and terminology.  

Crafty Dog

[Sun_Helmet]

Sun Helmet has his reasons and that they do not include a historical basis, does not mean that there is not one.
Crafty Dog

This is true. My personal research have not unearthed any term CONSOLIDATING the ancient fighting arts of the islands, therefore I haven't given the word KALI an ancient historical basis as the MOTHER ART. However, someone somewhere came up with this term and that in itself requires some extended research all its own. Perhaps from that research, a springboard will lead to other paths which have been well covered by the vines of time.

On the Tulisanes movement, what began as a movement of banditry evolved to the what later became known as the Katipunan movement.

On the Pulahanes movement... during the Moro Wars the river called the Pulangi played a significant strategical role. Wondering if the Illustrisimo clan had any stories involving the battles around that river region.

Here's a tangent:
 
Are there any Spanish manuals which describe sinawali movements and concepts?

--Rafael--

[Spadaccino]

My personal research have not unearthed any term CONSOLIDATING the ancient fighting arts of the islands, therefore I haven't given the word KALI an ancient historical basis as the MOTHER ART. However, someone somewhere came up with this term and that in itself requires some extended research all its own. Perhaps from that research, a springboard will lead to other paths which have been well covered by the vines of time.

Rafael, what's your opinion on simply using the indigenous terms to describe individual systems, but referring collectively to the Filipino arts simply as "FMA"?

Here's a tangent:
 
Are there any Spanish manuals which describe sinawali movements and concepts?

Not that I'm personally aware of.

At a party at the salle I used to train at, I had the good fortune to meet with Maestro Ramon Martinez, and speak with him about fencing matters.  Certainly, in the destreza method at least, I don't see much that looks like what I know from FMA--certainly no sinawalli stuff.  Martinez has commented on the obvious differences, as has J. Christoph Amberger, in his essay from Mark Wiley's Arnis book.

Peace,

David/TFS

[Sun_Helmet]

Rafael, what's your opinion on simply using the indigenous terms to describe individual systems, but referring collectively to the Filipino arts simply as "FMA"?

I feel it is up to the individual person's taste and not something worth trying to consolidate. In my previous post, I stated I have no opinion against using such terms since the arts continue to evolve and successors will most likely change terminology along the way. Just as long as the practioner respectfully acknowledges the Filipinos or instructors who preserved the art when they learned it.

On Maestro Martinez; several years ago when we were visiting Guro Inosanto at a Queens seminar he remarked how alien the double stick methods were to him. He was looking at a basic heaven count.

For others who may be interested. Here's a small compilation of quotes regarding Pre-Hispanic Filipino warfare written by Miguel Legaspi himself. he didn't call it KALI but he was impressed with what seems to be a level of expertise beyond rudimentary one two type hacking:

All Quotes from Legaspi in Blair and Robertson, The Philippine Islands:

On Pre-Hispanic Filipino arms and dress:

"? all the natives had put on their wooden corselets and rope armor , and had armed themselves with their lances, shields, small cutlasses, and arrows; and that many plumes and varicolored headdresses were waving;"

At the town of Cangiungo ? more evidence of Filipinos with swords:

"They made signs that we should not disembark; pulled grass, Struck trees with their cutlasses, and threateningly mocked us. Seeing that in this case cajolery could not suffice, we withdrew in order not to disturb them; "

Legaspi mentions the Filipinos always being armed:

"The weapons generally used throughout the Filipinas are cutlasses and daggers; lances with iron points, one and one-half palms in length; lenguados enclosed in cloth sheaths, and a few bows and arrows. Whenever the natives leave their houses, even if it is only to go to the house of a neighbor, they carry these weapons; for they are always on the alert, and are mistrustful of one another."

A Gunting wound?:

"A soldier who went ashore received a wound in the hand. The wound was apparently small; and indeed it was through negligence of the wounded man himself that he died within two weeks."

Use of spears:

"the Indians, when they saw him, fell upon him and in a moment with great cruelty tore him to pieces, giving him at least thirty lance thrusts through the body."

Legaspi describes another tribe that used impact weapons and comments on their expertise:

"?with their hardened clubs, stones, and slings (which comprise their weapons, and which they manage very skillfully) they took the place of those who were fighting, and those who were fighting embarked in the canoes, and came also to the ships to trade."


--Rafael--
"The Indian campaign were not analogous. The Indian Wars were amateur melees compared with the insurrection (by Filipinos in Southern Luzon) waged in 1900?" pg. 138 Millett, The General (Robert L. Bullard, who helped track the Apache warrior, Geronimo)

[Spadaccino]

Rafael, what's your opinion on simply using the indigenous terms to describe individual systems, but referring collectively to the Filipino arts simply as "FMA"?

I feel it is up to the individual person's taste and not something worth trying to consolidate. In my previous post, I stated I have no opinion against using such terms since the arts continue to evolve and successors will most likely change terminology along the way. Just as long as the practioner respectfully acknowledges the Filipinos or instructors who preserved the art when they learned it.

On Maestro Martinez; several years ago when we were visiting Guro Inosanto at a Queens seminar he remarked how alien the double stick methods were to him. He was looking at a basic heaven count.

For others who may be interested. Here's a small compilation of quotes regarding Pre-Hispanic Filipino warfare written by Miguel Legaspi himself. he didn't call it KALI but he was impressed with what seems to be a level of expertise beyond rudimentary one two type hacking:

All Quotes from Legaspi in Blair and Robertson, The Philippine Islands:

On Pre-Hispanic Filipino arms and dress:

"? all the natives had put on their wooden corselets and rope armor , and had armed themselves with their lances, shields, small cutlasses, and arrows; and that many plumes and varicolored headdresses were waving;"

At the town of Cangiungo ? more evidence of Filipinos with swords:

"They made signs that we should not disembark; pulled grass, Struck trees with their cutlasses, and threateningly mocked us. Seeing that in this case cajolery could not suffice, we withdrew in order not to disturb them; "

Legaspi mentions the Filipinos always being armed:

"The weapons generally used throughout the Filipinas are cutlasses and daggers; lances with iron points, one and one-half palms in length; lenguados enclosed in cloth sheaths, and a few bows and arrows. Whenever the natives leave their houses, even if it is only to go to the house of a neighbor, they carry these weapons; for they are always on the alert, and are mistrustful of one another."

A Gunting wound?:

"A soldier who went ashore received a wound in the hand. The wound was apparently small; and indeed it was through negligence of the wounded man himself that he died within two weeks."

Use of spears:

"the Indians, when they saw him, fell upon him and in a moment with great cruelty tore him to pieces, giving him at least thirty lance thrusts through the body."

Legaspi describes another tribe that used impact weapons and comments on their expertise:

"?with their hardened clubs, stones, and slings (which comprise their weapons, and which they manage very skillfully) they took the place of those who were fighting, and those who were fighting embarked in the canoes, and came also to the ships to trade."


--Rafael--
"The Indian campaign were not analogous. The Indian Wars were amateur melees compared with the insurrection (by Filipinos in Southern Luzon) waged in 1900?" pg. 138 Millett, The General (Robert L. Bullard, who helped track the Apache warrior, Geronimo)

Some great material there, Rafael.

Peace,

David/TFS

[Question Everything]

but the question must be asked: what sense do you have that being a white mormon may have affected your exposure to indigenous arts in Mindanao? How much exposure did you have?

 
there?s two ways I can answer this question. One would be to just touch upon the shallow level and answer your question ala ?Kung Fu?, with David Caradine, and satiate the fetishization of ?white? among the ?indigenous? curiousity.  Which is one level of your question.  Or I can take it a little deeper and examine why such a question was asked and offer a critique.  I think since everybody has already been primed in this thread, we?ll concentrate on the question itself.

It?s been said that only Americans travel or visit other countries and call the people who live there, ?foreigners?.  Where the average person in world speaks atleast 2 languages, the US is the only nation which consistently is monolingual, and proud of it.  the US has successfully racialized everything.  A Mexican, Chinese, Indian who was born in the suburbs and speaks perfect American English, in the eyes of White Americans are still ?Mexican?, ?Chinese?, and ?Indian?.

it?s in this context that your question was asked, as an American, confined to one culture.  A culture defined through its hyper consumerist, highly commercialized, commodified, and racialized realities.  So, the question was how a white mormon (I?m non religious, by the way, what my parents would lovingly call an apostate) could associate with the ?others?, the indigenous.  And what level of exposure that association can ever be.

Having already explained that I was born into this small town, within the smaller college community, and speak/understand the various languages represented (I am fluent in Bisaya and Tagalog, with a working knowledge in Ilongo, Ilokano, Maranaw and Tausug).  The question of exposure should have already been answered.  This is where American culture (atleast the American culture which evolved in this recent century) comes in.  Only an American, having already outlined the above, can ask this question.  This is because the concept of the ?other?, the non-white, had been so normalized that most Americans see human relations through their racialized eyes.

The simple fact was that I was born there, two of the teachers that taught me the sword also carried me as a young child (one of which was my teacher who was half Maranaw, and Tausug.  A history teacher by profession, a sculptor by choice, and a warrior by birth), and I speak fluently.  Although I wish I could say it with more eloquence, I was one of them.  I was the child they watched grow up, along with my other childhood friends.  But, because Americans tend to always racialize relationships, the theme of suspicion intrudes this reality, hence the question you asked.

But, also this suspicion has another level, than just that of racialization.  The whole consumerist, commercialized, and commodified ?reality? also injects itself.  So, then you suspect, ?did I really get all of the art??, ?was my teacher holding back because I?m white??.  Did Mr. Sulite teach his ?Orihinal? group differently?  This is connected to your initial question.  And to answer it, most likely they were holding back, but not because of race, but because you?ve (I?m using ?you? here in general, not you personally) commodified it.  Instead of a student in a traditional way, you?ve made yourself a benefactor, not a student, a consumer. because you?ve commodified an art.

To answer your question? Physically and in spirit I possess the arts taught to me as a child.  But, more importantly the fact that I learned from a rural setting, later learning from an urban setting (Cebu City), having been born in a small close knit community, having teachers who also belonged in academia, speaking fluently, having spent a considerable amount of my academic career in Anthropology and Linguistics, I would have to say my exposure and knowledge of the culture is more than minimal.

[Question Everything]

but the question must be asked: what sense do you have that being a white mormon may have affected your exposure to indigenous arts in Mindanao? How much exposure did you have?

 
there?s two ways I can answer this question. One would be to just touch upon the shallow level and answer your question ala ?Kung Fu?, with David Caradine, and satiate the fetishization of ?white? among the ?indigenous? curiousity.  Which is one level of your question.  Or I can take it a little deeper and examine why such a question was asked and offer a critique.  I think since everybody has already been primed in this thread, we?ll concentrate on the question itself.

It?s been said that only Americans travel or visit other countries and call the people who live there, ?foreigners?.  Where the average person in world speaks atleast 2 languages, the US is the only nation which consistently is monolingual, and proud of it.  the US has successfully racialized everything.  A Mexican, Chinese, Indian who was born in the suburbs and speaks perfect American English, in the eyes of White Americans are still ?Mexican?, ?Chinese?, and ?Indian?.

it?s in this context that your question was asked, as an American, confined to one culture.  A culture defined through its hyper consumerist, highly commercialized, commodified, and racialized realities.  So, the question was how a white mormon (I?m non religious, by the way, what my parents would lovingly call an apostate) could associate with the ?others?, the indigenous.  And what level of exposure that association can ever be.

Having already explained that I was born into this small town, within the smaller college community, and speak/understand the various languages represented (I am fluent in Bisaya and Tagalog, with a working knowledge in Ilongo, Ilokano, Maranaw and Tausug).  The question of exposure should have already been answered.  This is where American culture (atleast the American culture which evolved in this recent century) comes in.  Only an American, having already outlined the above, can ask this question.  This is because the concept of the ?other?, the non-white, had been so normalized that most Americans see human relations through their racialized eyes.

The simple fact was that I was born there, two of the teachers that taught me the sword also carried me as a young child (one of which was my teacher who was half Maranaw, and Tausug.  A history teacher by profession, a sculptor by choice, and a warrior by birth), and I speak fluently.  Although I wish I could say it with more eloquence, I was one of them.  I was the child they watched grow up, along with my other childhood friends.  But, because Americans tend to always racialize relationships, the theme of suspicion intrudes this reality, hence the question you asked.

But, also this suspicion has another level, than just that of racialization.  The whole consumerist, commercialized, and commodified ?reality? also injects itself.  So, then you suspect, ?did I really get all of the art??, ?was my teacher holding back because I?m white??.  Did Mr. Sulite teach his ?Orihinal? group differently?  This is connected to your initial question.  And to answer it, most likely they were holding back, but not because of race, but because you?ve (I?m using ?you? here in general, not you personally) commodified it.  Instead of a student in a traditional way, you?ve made yourself a benefactor, not a student, a consumer. because you?ve commodified an art.

To answer your question? Physically and in spirit I possess the arts taught to me as a child.  But, more importantly the fact that I learned from a rural setting, later learning from an urban setting (Cebu City), having been born in a small close knit community, having teachers who also belonged in academia, speaking fluently, having spent a considerable amount of my academic career in Anthropology and Linguistics, I would have to say my exposure and knowledge of the culture is more than minimal.

[Question Everything]

4) Concerning your analysis of the Villabrille use of the term, you mention the Illustrisimo clan. Are you familiar with the portion of Tatang's Ilustrisimo's life spent with the Muslims and its importance to his art?

of all your questions and observations, I thought this was the one which had more meat.  So, allow me to dissect it.  Yes, I am familiar with Mr. Illustrisimo?s saga (I?ve actually seen him move and was quite impressed).  He was a stowaway, having boarded a ship, I believe in Cebu City, was lost and eventually made way to Mindanao.  He lived with a Muslim family and further learned in their arts.  What?s important here is to figure out which ethno-linguistic group this Muslim family was from.  If they were Maranaw, Tausug, or Maguindanao, I can confidently say that the word KALI or any of its derivation is not present in the above languages.  But, there are lesser Muslim groups in Mindanao.  Then another important question is when he began using the word KALI public.  If memory serves me right, from my readings, Mr. Illustrisimo, or his club, began using the word KALI in the 1970s (after the popularization of the word Kali by Mr. Largusa in the 1960s).  Which places us back to the US.

A couple of questions and/or observations:

1) Like I've said, there's more than one reason for the use of the term and more than one theory as to its origin. Sun Helmet has his reasons and that they do not include a historical basis, does not mean that there is not one.

this is a flaw in reason.  If we were comparing two unsubstantiated ideas or theories, then one can say this.  But, there is no comparison here, there might be a comparison between eskrima and kali, of which eskrima would have historical substance, although a foreign one.  But, the point of discussion is the examination of the historicity of the term Kali.  I think I?ve successfully illustrated how much historical evidence is NOT present here.  To say, ?there is historical evidence, we just can?t produce it or explain it, but I?m sure there is one--somewhere? and this justifies my belief in it and use of it.  This is a flaw in reason. the fact of the matter is, if there?s no historical proof, then you either have to use another word or stop claiming it to be the ?ancient? name for an ancient art.  We?ve already poked several holes in the various theories posted so far, to effectively incapacitate those ideas.  And I?m sure there are no other theories which will possess a prima facie quality.

One should not justify his belief because others believe it, without evidence, But rather because you?ve examined this belief yourself to be possessing substantiable proof.

2) Allow me to repeat and underline what I have said from the beginning of this thread: I am not the man to make the historical case and that I have not done so proves nothing. I have not sought to do so. I have only directed you to other sources and challenged the assertion made here that the case against kali had been closed. It has not.

How could it not be?  Unless, you can come up with another theory, then we are at a close.  You should know this, having spent years in law school.  Without sufficient evidence you have no case.  Then this discussion becomes an empty discussion about faith, ?I?m sure there?s evidence somewhere out there, why else would people believe so strongly??, but this isn?t evidence.   They?ve been using the term KALI publicly for about 40 years now, yet people have still yet to substantiate it.  This should be done with ease.

[Question Everything]

3) I am not "exoticizing" diddly. I've given sources, which I regard as worthy for those of you who want to follow up on it.
4) Can you explain for us the repeated appearance of "kali" in various FMA names from various dialects? I understand your point that the term may have been imported and your theory that it may all have been brought back from 1970s California and diffused to the boondocks of the Philippines. I confess this seems to me to be a bit of a stretch. Are all of these terms of less than 30 years use? Is there anyone out there who can comment upon all these terms?
5) Any theories as to why Edgar Sulite (of whom I was a private student during all of his years in the US btw) saw the term as historically valid? I assure you, he wasn't 'exoticizing' it.
6) Any theories as to why Roland Dantes, who has/does live in the south states that the term is indigenous? Or is he exoticizing it too?
7) GT Leo Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia Kali uses the term. Don't tell me he used to use the term "Arnis"-- I know that-- but feel free to contact him and ask him why he now uses 'Kali' and what he believes to be the historical basis of the term.

 
Part of the glamour of the word, is because it is exotic.  The fact that we can?t figure out where it came from is exotic.  Is it Indian Sanskrit? is it from the lost Djak tribe of Borneo? Is it from Mindanao? There is a certain aura of mystery.  And yes most Filipinos not from Mindanao tend to exoticize the Muslims of Mindanao.  Ask yourself how many Filipino Muslim masters you know of?  Mr. Sulite is Bisaya, Mr. Gaje is from Bacolod, Negros (but he did spend time in the East Coast of the US in the 70s), although I?m only familiar with Mr. Dantes in the movies, he is not a Muslim Filipino, all of them aren?t.  So, where is their linguistic evidence?  As I?ve stated, the word KALI is absent from the Maranaw, Tausug, and Magindanaw languages.  All they had to say was, ?So and So tribes in Mindanao uses the term Kali, and that?s why we use it??.  That solves it.  

But, then one has to wonder why Bisayans would have to go all the way to Mindanao to name their art? Because the masters who popularized FMA were mostly Bisayans (i.e. Mr. Sulite, Mr. Bacon, Mr. Canete, Mr. Illustrisimo, Mr. Villabrille, Mr. Lacoste, Mr. Caballero, Mr. Dizon (of which Mr. Cabales studied under), and Mr. Gaabucayan).  The theme of exoctization is indeed present, how else would one group choose to name their art a foreign title from Mindanao?
 

Can you explain for us the repeated appearance of "kali" in various FMA names from various dialects?

The term KALI does Not appear in any of the major languages in the Philippines, to include Mindanao, that was exactly my point all along.  If you go to the rural areas in Mindanao and say the word KALI today, they?ll think you?re ordering a soft drink to quench your thirst.

For those of you looking for "proof", my sense of it is that there is much in the history of the Philippines that cannot be "proved". We know of sophisiticated ancient Filipino alphabets, yet have virtually no record of them or what they were used to write. We know that the Spaniards sought to destroy much in this regard. We know who wrote most of the history we do have and gave them the name of their art.

yes much of the culture is lost, but this doesn?t mean it is as easy to make words up and dub them meaning and expect people to accept it without question.  The various languages in the islands are still very much alive.  This is why if there are any such evidence of the use of the term KALI, it would be obvious in the language.  All we need is to figure out which ethno-linguistic group uses KALI?if there is such a group.  But, as you can see, this is almost as hard as doing Sinawali with one hand.


(p.s.?there is a purpose for all this badgering and questions.  But, let us first exhaust the argument, and then I?ll outline my reasons I?m attacking the term Kali with such passion.  Of course it isn?t personal, but it?s point I?d like to make known to others in the FMA world.  So, if you can bare with me, I?d be much obliged)

[Crafty_Dog]

All:

I will have more to say later but for now found this, from a well-travelled Filipino teacher, in my files.

FOR THOSE WHO SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THE POINT STATED PREVIOUSLY, I AM NOT TRYING PERSUADE ANYONE OF ANYTHING.  THIS IS NOT OFFERED AS PROOF, IT IS OFFERED AS A COURTESY TO THOSE LOOKING FOR PIECES TO THE PUZZLE.

Crafty Dog
====================


A. Kali is authenticated as follows:

Kali is found in the language of the filipino
alphabets. In the first four Alibata or Babayin the
original filipino language: A ba (ka )da. Open the
yahoo search for Alibata and you see the explanation.

Meaning the filipino language is full of meaning and
the two letters as spelled KA =a prefix for verbs in
filipino words: As Ka-lipay or happiness, Ka-lisod for
sadness, Ka-libutan for the world, Ka-limutan to
forget, ka-lirungan meaning, knowldege and etc.

KA-IS WORD FOR RESPECT for Sir, your highness,your
excellency,your honor.

All persons in the early days were addressed as
Ka-pedro or Ka Jose or Ka Juan. As Ka-Marc. Ka Dan or
Ka leo.The word KA is a word to address the head of
the Iglesia ni Kristo , a religious group in the
Philippines with more than 5 million members. The head
of the Church is KA FERDIE MANALO.

The rebel group in the Philippines( NPA) they address
their leaders as KA like Ka Roger. This word Ka must
be express with sincerity and greast respect.

Ka- is found in the flag of the first katipunan group
who revolted against Spain. The Ka-tipuneros or the
revolutionarios against the Spaniards in 1800 use the
sign K in their hats and all the flags displayed
during the assaults.

Kali was more of a Philosophy of the early filipinos.
This philosophy was a major drive in the filipinos
bravery  using the bolos charging  against the
Spaniards guns and spanish blades that demoralizes
every assualts surprised the Spanish officers and the
whole Spanish regime in the Philippines. Spain lost
the revolution selling the filipinos at $ 3.00 dollars
per head in the treaty of Paris in 1889.

Kali found its landmark in Panay Island where the
first constitution of the land was established by Datu
Kalantiaw: The Code of Kalantiaw and the Code of
Maragtas.The influence of kali as a Philosophy were
found among the natives of Panay and the arrival of
Ten Datus from Borneo established the gathering of the
early inhabitants at KALIBO now the captial of Aklan
province where the famous Boracay White Beach Resort
is found, an international well known beach resort
found in Panay.Another remarkable place as a landmark
of Kali is the town of KALINOG- where every year the
celebration of the festival called PINTADOS is held to
celebrate the famous battle in Kalinog-meaning
earthquake where the filipinos rebels painted their
faces as disguised to infiltrate the Spanish garrison.
In northern Luzon province of Kalinga Apayao , a place
where the Kalimen settled in the north and today the
natives practice Kali in form of PIKA_PIKA.

To check the working Philosophy of Kali, known as
distinct bravery, during the Marocs time, the Army
soldiers that fought in Mindanao against the Muslim
rebellion were all the Ilongos soldiers from Panay and
Negros, other tribes like the Ilocanos and Tagalogs
were moved out to Manila. The only group of tribes in
the Philippines that the Muslim in MIndanao resepcts
is the Ilongo. Even in the Marines now, only the
Ilongo marines can infiltrate Muslim rebels.

KALI as a art is accepted by the Armed forces of the
Philippines recognized by the President of the
Philippines, Former President Ramos, Secretary of
National Defense and the Present President ( open
pekiti-tirsia.net ) check the blackboard.

Every year the town of Salvador Benedicto in Negros
celebrates the kali-kalihan festival.

 Kali is blade oriented fighting discipline. No
disarming, no blocking, no kata no judo throws no
aikido or jujitsui nor kicks is applied during the
fight.
===========

[Anonymous]

Kali is authenticated as follows:

the following doesn't really "authenticate".

Kali is found in the language of the filipino
alphabets. In the first four Alibata or Babayin the
original filipino language: A ba (ka )da. Open the
yahoo search for Alibata and you see the explanation.

the syllable KA can also be found in Japanese, Arabic, English, Indonesian, etc. (it's pretty much found in most, if not all, languages)

Meaning the filipino language is full of meaning and
the two letters as spelled KA =a prefix for verbs in
filipino words: As Ka-lipay or happiness, Ka-lisod for
sadness, Ka-libutan for the world, Ka-limutan to
forget, ka-lirungan meaning, knowldege and etc.

it's not a prefix for VERBs, but rather for abstract concepts: KAmatuuran (truth), KAsaysayan (history), KAlayaan (freedom), KAlinaw (peace).

KA-IS WORD FOR RESPECT for Sir, your highness,your
excellency,your honor.
All persons in the early days were addressed as
Ka-pedro or Ka Jose or Ka Juan. As Ka-Marc. Ka Dan or
Ka leo.The word KA is a word to address the head of
the Iglesia ni Kristo , a religious group in the
Philippines with more than 5 million members. The head
of the Church is KA FERDIE MANALO.

this is accurate to some degree.

The rebel group in the Philippines( NPA) they address
their leaders as KA like Ka Roger. This word Ka must
be express with sincerity and greast respect.

the word KA' within the NPA stands for KAsama (comrade).  it's addressed to everyone who belongs to this movement.

Ka- is found in the flag of the first katipunan group
who revolted against Spain. The Ka-tipuneros or the
revolutionarios against the Spaniards in 1800 use the
sign K in their hats and all the flags displayed
during the assaults.

the KA stands for KAtipunan (group/society), also has the extra meaning of KAlayaan (freedom).  the original flag contains three KKKs, the KKK stands for: KAtaastaasan KAgalanggalangan Na KAtipunan ng Mga Anak Ng Bayan (the Highest and Most Respectable Society of the Sons of the People/Nation).

Kali was more of a Philosophy of the early filipinos.
This philosophy was a major drive in the filipinos
bravery  using the bolos charging  against the
Spaniards guns and spanish blades that demoralizes
every assualts surprised the Spanish officers and the
whole Spanish regime in the Philippines. Spain lost
the revolution selling the filipinos at $ 3.00 dollars
per head in the treaty of Paris in 1889.

out of nowhere, having listed various uses of the syllable KA, this is suppose to connect to KALI?  this is somewhat of an equivocation on the writers part, in which he inserts the term KALI surreptiously after having "authenticated" the KA syllable prior.  

KALI or any of this term's derivation was never used among KAtipuneros or at any time during the Spanish/Filipino or the American/Filipino War in the late 1890s and the early 1900s.

Kali found its landmark in Panay Island where the
first constitution of the land was established by Datu
Kalantiaw: The Code of Kalantiaw and the Code of
Maragtas.The influence of kali as a Philosophy were
found among the natives of Panay and the arrival of
Ten Datus from Borneo established the gathering of the
early inhabitants at KALIBO now the captial of Aklan
province where the famous Boracay White Beach Resort
is found, an international well known beach resort
found in Panay.

there is NO mention of Kali (as the ancient martial art) in the Code of Kalantiaw.  in the town KAlibo, KA is the prefix while the root is LIBO.  hardly a connection to KALI as the 'ancient' martial art.

Another remarkable place as a landmark
of Kali is the town of KALINOG- where every year the
celebration of the festival called PINTADOS is held to
celebrate the famous battle in Kalinog-meaning
earthquake where the filipinos rebels painted their
faces as disguised to infiltrate the Spanish garrison.
In northern Luzon province of Kalinga Apayao , a place
where the Kalimen settled in the north and today the
natives practice Kali in form of PIKA_PIKA.

again KA in KAlinog is the prefix, linog is the root. it seems the author is making a big deal about the happenstance of the syllable KA and LI being together in some words and town's name.  if we follow this logic, we'll have to also connect the Bisayan word KAlibanga', which means diarhea, to the term KALI.  which would be very silly.

To check the working Philosophy of Kali, known as
distinct bravery, during the Marocs time, the Army
soldiers that fought in Mindanao against the Muslim
rebellion were all the Ilongos soldiers from Panay and
Negros, other tribes like the Ilocanos and Tagalogs
were moved out to Manila. The only group of tribes in
the Philippines that the Muslim in Mindanao respects
is the Ilongo. Even in the Marines now, only the
Ilongo marines can infiltrate Muslim rebels.

there's a big ILONGO rhetoric/proganda theme in this paragraph, so i have a pretty good idea who wrote this now.  but, in truth the Muslims, like any other group, respect those who respect them in return.  the Ilongos don't have a monopoly with the concept of respect in the Philippines. they're no braver than the next guy.  and more importantly the word KALI is Not indigenous to the ILONGOs of Bacolod or any other parts of the Philippines.

KALI as a art is accepted by the Armed forces of the
Philippines recognized by the President of the
Philippines, Former President Ramos, Secretary of
National Defense and the Present President ( open
pekiti-tirsia.net ) check the blackboard.

yes, KALI is now part of the martial arts terminology within the Philippine Military, but it has only been until recently when Pekiti Tersia began training them.  Mr. Gaje himself began using the term KALI while he was in the East Coast of the US in the 1970s, if memory serves me right.  again, no historical evidence for KALI.

Every year the town of Salvador Benedicto in Negros
celebrates the kali-kalihan festival.

i've never heard of this, i'm very interested as to how they began using the term.  and if the term has the same meaning as the martial arts KALI.  i'd also want to know when the festival started.  the big festival in Cebu City, to offer an added perspective, Sinulog began in the 1980s to attract tourists.

Kali is blade oriented fighting discipline. No
disarming, no blocking, no kata no judo throws no
aikido or jujitsui nor kicks is applied during the
fight.

ALL arts in the Philippines involve the use of a blade.  the rural areas tend to use the longer blades (i.e. kampilans, barongs, sundangs, pinutis, and other farming tools), because people tend to walk around with these implements.  in the urban setting however, since it's fairly uncommon to see a person walk around with a sword or any other long blade weapon, they've done away with the sword or long blade (as the rural folks have done away with the blow gun, bow/arrow, and shields).  but they surely still train with the knife, since there's more chances of you being poked with a knife or barbecue stick in the city.

[another guest]

All:

I will have more to say later but for now found this, from a well-travelled Filipino teacher, in my files.

FOR THOSE WHO SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THE POINT STATED PREVIOUSLY, I AM NOT TRYING PERSUADE ANYONE OF ANYTHING. THIS IS NOT OFFERED AS PROOF, IT IS OFFERED AS A COURTESY TO THOSE LOOKING FOR PIECES TO THE PUZZLE.

Crafty Dog
====================


A. Kali is authenticated as follows:

Kali is found in the language of the filipino
alphabets. In the first four Alibata or Babayin the
original filipino language: A ba (ka )da. Open the
yahoo search for Alibata and you see the explanation.

Meaning the filipino language is full of meaning and
the two letters as spelled KA =a prefix for verbs in
filipino words: As Ka-lipay or happiness, Ka-lisod for
sadness, Ka-libutan for the world, Ka-limutan to
forget, ka-lirungan meaning, knowldege and etc.

KA-IS WORD FOR RESPECT for Sir, your highness,your
excellency,your honor.

All persons in the early days were addressed as
Ka-pedro or Ka Jose or Ka Juan. As Ka-Marc. Ka Dan or
Ka leo.The word KA is a word to address the head of
the Iglesia ni Kristo , a religious group in the
Philippines with more than 5 million members. The head
of the Church is KA FERDIE MANALO.

The rebel group in the Philippines( NPA) they address
their leaders as KA like Ka Roger. This word Ka must
be express with sincerity and greast respect.

Ka- is found in the flag of the first katipunan group
who revolted against Spain. The Ka-tipuneros or the
revolutionarios against the Spaniards in 1800 use the
sign K in their hats and all the flags displayed
during the assaults.

Kali was more of a Philosophy of the early filipinos.
This philosophy was a major drive in the filipinos
bravery using the bolos charging against the
Spaniards guns and spanish blades that demoralizes
every assualts surprised the Spanish officers and the
whole Spanish regime in the Philippines. Spain lost
the revolution selling the filipinos at $ 3.00 dollars
per head in the treaty of Paris in 1889.

Kali found its landmark in Panay Island where the
first constitution of the land was established by Datu
Kalantiaw: The Code of Kalantiaw and the Code of
Maragtas.The influence of kali as a Philosophy were
found among the natives of Panay and the arrival of
Ten Datus from Borneo established the gathering of the
early inhabitants at KALIBO now the captial of Aklan
province where the famous Boracay White Beach Resort
is found, an international well known beach resort
found in Panay.Another remarkable place as a landmark
of Kali is the town of KALINOG- where every year the
celebration of the festival called PINTADOS is held to
celebrate the famous battle in Kalinog-meaning
earthquake where the filipinos rebels painted their
faces as disguised to infiltrate the Spanish garrison.
In northern Luzon province of Kalinga Apayao , a place
where the Kalimen settled in the north and today the
natives practice Kali in form of PIKA_PIKA.

To check the working Philosophy of Kali, known as
distinct bravery, during the Marocs time, the Army
soldiers that fought in Mindanao against the Muslim
rebellion were all the Ilongos soldiers from Panay and
Negros, other tribes like the Ilocanos and Tagalogs
were moved out to Manila. The only group of tribes in
the Philippines that the Muslim in MIndanao resepcts
is the Ilongo. Even in the Marines now, only the
Ilongo marines can infiltrate Muslim rebels.

KALI as a art is accepted by the Armed forces of the
Philippines recognized by the President of the
Philippines, Former President Ramos, Secretary of
National Defense and the Present President ( open
pekiti-tirsia.net ) check the blackboard.

Every year the town of Salvador Benedicto in Negros
celebrates the kali-kalihan festival.

Kali is blade oriented fighting discipline. No
disarming, no blocking, no kata no judo throws no
aikido or jujitsui nor kicks is applied during the
fight.
===========

why make this sound mysterioius as "a well travelled master"? at first glance I could immediately check from the writing style and content that it is an article written by the "Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje".

[another guest]

It can be noted, and this has been documented, that the Marcos era was the time when alot of historical, cultural, anthropological aspects of the country were being manipulated by the late dictator Pres. Ferdinand Edralin Marcos for his personal gain. He directly did this by fabricating his heroic exploits during WW2 (people during that time would not forget the famous pictures of Marcos wearing all those fake medals) including his fake participation in the infamous Bataan Death March where plenty of American GI's and Filipino guerillas died.

Ferdinand Marcos tried to "exoticize" the country by referring to it in his mind as the "Maharlikas". It was during his time that such ideas such as the wave of migration from the Negritos or Atis/Ita, then the Malays, then the Indonesians were propagated and spread into the curriculum of all schools. This migration theory is now being disputed now by current, enlightened historians who have nothing else to gain but a sense of Filipino pride of passing on the real "roots" to the coming generations.
It was also during Marcos' time that the "Code of Kalantiaw", was being popularized, this code is being questioned as to its authenticity as well.

One major anthropological/historical fraud that Marcos and his crony, Elizalde, was the supposed discovery of the lost ancient tribe of the "Tasaday" in Palawan,which is the Philippine's last fronteir. This has been disputed and documented.  

One may argue that some of these theories were being propagated even before Marcos time. I agree. It was the work of some Americans like Fox who made some studies even before WW2. However, alot of these theories are being disputed by current Filipino historians, anthropologists.

How does this relate to "Kali". Well, most of these "grandmasters" base Kali historical facts from these theories that are now being questioned for their soundness.

[Question Everything]

correction:

the Code of Kalantiaw does have archaelogical merits.  But, the point of argument regarding this artifact, is not whether it's hoax or not; Rather, if whether this artifact, or the contents found within, is worthy of all these 'positive nationalist propaganda'.

You see the Code is a set of historical as well as traditional laws/rules (somewhat like the Muslims' Shariya or the Code of Hammurabi).  But, the Code or the laws set within are so barbaric that historians, anthropologists, etc. are starting to question as to whether they should promote it as something the nation can be proud of or just leave it as a historical artifact, not worthy to be taught in elementary schools as "Our Ancient Laws".

The Code is not representative of the whole archipelago, as it was just found in one island.  The contents of which aren't replicated in other parts of the nation.

There is NO mention of KALI as the ancient art of the Philippines.

[Sun_Helmet]

It was during his time that such ideas such as the wave of migration from the Negritos or Atis/Ita, then the Malays, then the Indonesians were propagated and spread into the curriculum of all schools. This migration theory is now being disputed now by current, enlightened historians who have nothing else to gain but a sense of Filipino pride of passing on the real "roots" to the coming generations.

Are there any publications or sites that document these disputes about migration? What are the current stances on these topics?

I believe Hurley's 'Swish of the Kris' may have been one of the earliest publications to list the migration theory that is now in question. What are the real 'roots' these enlightened are now presenting?


--Rafael Kayanan--

[Bored]

The theory being propogated recently is the land-bridge theory.  It basically goes that there was once a land bridge between PI and mainland asia, and thats how the people arrived in PI.  Essentially it disputes the wave theory, and states there was no wave migration Philippine Culture/history was a constant and developed by itself in PI, without outside influence.  However, Question Everything seems to have things backwards.  It is during Marcos time that the land-bridge theory gains popularity, in an effort to make PI history stand up more on its own rather than seem to be borrowing from Indonesia/Malaysia.  Sun Helmet is correct in noting that before the Marcos era, as early as the turn of the century, the common theory was the wave migration theory.  It is the basis of various ethnological works, such as the subsequent ethnological surveys of the Islands undertaken by such pioneers as Albert Jenks, and Najeeb Saleeby in the turn of the century.  

As for chopping up the spelling of words to look for greater meaning/connections, it must be remembered that most of the Romanization of non-christian Dialects was only undertaken in the last 100 years under the American auspices.  Often times the translations are arbitrary phonetic attributions, rather than anything based on native practice or meaning, and the usage changes over time.  

As for the code of Kalantiaw having archaelogical merits, what are they?  Noted scholar, William Henry Scott refuted the whole code, School of Bothoan, and 10 datu myth a long time ago as fabrications.  What is the scholarly work that disputes his ground breaking work?  Here are a couple links to sites that go into detail about the refutation of the whole 10 datu myth, school of bothoan, and code lies.  http://www.mts.net/~pmorrow/kalant_e.htm
http://aklanweb.tripod.com/historiography.htm

As for Antonio Illustrimos use of kalis illustrimo, the s is very very important.  Kalis was used in the same manner as kalis tulid, or kris tulid, depending on your spelling.  So in a sense it was used as the sword of Illustrimo, and not some kali reference.  Or at least that is what I have heard.

[Bored]

In Muslims in the Philippines, Dr. Majul notes that the word Qadi, or judge in Tausug has sometimes been spelt kali.  However, I can see how its usage would have fallen out of modern usage, as the US destroyed the old system of Islamic law/government in which the title would be found.  Also, again the spelling is arbitrary as well, and may have no more significance than an American transcriber listening to someone with an overly thick accent.  Kinda like the story about the heaven block being invented when a student mis-understood Angel Cabales thick accent saying Seven block.

[another bored guest]

http://www.mts.net/~pmorrow/kalant_e.htm


Go to this site and read it slowly. It mentions how the guy who submitted ancient documents was suspected of fabricating documents. They also dismissed that the legend of King Kalantiaw is a hoax.

[QUESTION EVERYTHING]

We’re now going into pointless tangents about the Code of Kalantiaw.  The important fact we need, for our KALI discussion, is that the term KALI isn’t found in the Code.  I’m familiar with the other points of academic contention, but it won’t be relevant to the KALI discussion here.

As for the other tidbits of information presented, only the two below are related to the KALI discussion.  So, allow me to address both…

As for Antonio Illustrimos use of kalis illustrimo, the s is very very important. Kalis was used in the same manner as kalis tulid, or kris tulid, depending on your spelling. So in a sense it was used as the sword of Illustrimo, and not some kali reference. Or at least that is what I have heard.

You’re connecting the words kalis and kris as if these two words are one and the same.  KALIS (adjective) in Tagalog means to be cleanly scraped, or KALISAN (verb form) to scrape something off.  KRIS, on the otherhand, is the sword or dagger found in Mindanao.  KRIS and KALIS are not the same.  And one cannot, arbitrarily brush it off as some sort of spelling error.   I’m not familiar with KALIS in any other Philippine languages, especially in Mindanao, to mean sword.

In Muslims in the Philippines, Dr. Majul notes that the word Qadi, or judge in Tausug has sometimes been spelt kali. However, I can see how its usage would have fallen out of modern usage, as the US destroyed the old system of Islamic law/government in which the title would be found. Also, again the spelling is arbitrary as well, and may have no more significance than an American transcriber listening to someone with an overly thick accent. Kinda like the story about the heaven block being invented when a student mis-understood Angel Cabales thick accent saying Seven block.

The word Qadi is NOT Tausug, but rather Arabic.  And it was transcibed rather CORRECTLY, you can consult your nearest Mosque (masjid) on this.  And the US did not destroy the Shariya, or Islamic Laws, during their tenure in Mindanao.  As a matter of fact, the US military’s policy was to keep on letting the Muslims continue their culture, because certain empirialists wanted Mindanao to be as different from the rest of the Christianized nation, since their strategy was to eventually cut off Mindanao to make it a separate country (look into “Muslim Rulers and Rebels” by Thomas McKenna and “Making Mindanao” by Patricio Abinales).  Islamic Law in Mindanao has since been marginalized by the Christian Filipino Republic, but it is indeed still there.

Once again QADI is not KALI.

I think I see a pattern here now. People are speaking expertly about things they know so little about and making various uneducated assumptions.  Basically, they are throwing anything that sounds and rhymes closely with the word KALI, in the hopes that they’ll hit something.

[QUESTION EVERYTHING]

However, Question Everything seems to have things backwards.  It is during Marcos time that the land-bridge theory gains popularity, in an effort to make PI history stand up more on its own rather than seem to be borrowing from Indonesia/Malaysia.

by the way, I wasn't the one who posted the whole Marcos tidbit, as this information has absolutely no relevance to our KALI discussion.  I was the one, though, to break down Mr. Gaje's 'authentication' article.  if you're at a lost, just look at the writing style and streamlined logic employed.
 

As for chopping up the spelling of words to look for greater meaning/connections, it must be remembered that most of the Romanization of non-christian Dialects was only undertaken in the last 100 years under the American auspices.  Often times the translations are arbitrary phonetic attributions, rather than anything based on native practice or meaning, and the usage changes over time.

there was no "chopping up" of words.  i was simply pointing out that syllables were given unnecessarry meanings, when they were just simple syllables of a specific word, NOT related to the term/title KALI.

if you have no more "evidence" to contribute, i would like to wrap this up with a point.  but, i'll wait until the end of the weekend to give you folks some time to do some research and offer sufficient rebuttles.  have a good weekend!!!

[Bored]

Question Everyting, are you saying Majul's work is incorrect?  Also, if you properly read Mckenna's work, you will know that the US did not seek to preserve traditional Moro culture, but instead imposed a false sense of heightened Islamization.  You should read Mandate in Moroland, by Peter Gowing, it goes into detail about the US policy in Moroland.  

As for kalis Illustrimo, you are assuming that the kalis being used is Tagalog.  But if you follow the Bakbakan people, theyre explanation for kalis is not as a Tagalog word, but as a Tausug word.  Remember, it is claimed that Antonio Illustrimo was raised for a while in Sulu, hence the adoption of the Tausug word kalis.  What I was trying to illustrate before, that while kalis and kris are spealt differently, in this sense they refer to the same thing, and will be pronounced the same.  How you got fixated on attributing everything back to Tagalog I am not sure.

Anyways, I have tried to use references for all the examples I have listed.  But if you feel they are incorrect, please let me know why, rather than flinging insults and perjoratives.

[Question Everything]

Off Topic

Are there any publications or sites that document these disputes about migration? What are the current stances on these topics?

I believe Hurley's 'Swish of the Kris' may have been one of the earliest publications to list the migration theory that is now in question. What are the real 'roots' these enlightened are now presenting?

--Rafael Kayanan--

Rafael,

If you're really interested with the other theories which only recently came to light, you should contact a certain Prof. Castro of the University of the Philippines Diliman, Anthropology Dept., next time you visit Manila.

the Wave and Land Bridge theories, were popular in the 60s and 70s, but they've devised others, more linguistically based theories since. I'm sorry, I can't offer you any publications.  Most of what I read about the new theories came as xerox copies of separate articles.

[Anonymous]

Woof All:

I'm on the road and will be unable to comment for several days.

Woof,
Crafty Dog

[Question Everything]

Question Everyting, are you saying Majul's work is incorrect?  Also, if you properly read Mckenna's work, you will know that the US did not seek to preserve traditional Moro culture, but instead imposed a false sense of heightened Islamization.  You should read Mandate in Moroland, by Peter Gowing, it goes into detail about the US policy in Moroland.

all you have to do is go to your nearest Mosque (Masjid) right now and ask if QADI is indeed Arabic for 'judge'.  as an addendum, MOHAKEM also means 'judge' in Arabic, from the root "HAKAMA" meaning to rule or preside over.  

As for US policy, the point i was trying to make was that they retained Muslim culture and traditions, whether it was with good or ill intent is irrelevant in this discussion.  the first point was that they did not bastardize the word QADI, as you've indicated.

KALI has never been used for QADI, as this word invokes a great deal of respect.

 
As for kalis Illustrimo, you are assuming that the kalis being used is Tagalog.  But if you follow the Bakbakan people, theyre explanation for kalis is not as a Tagalog word, but as a Tausug word.  Remember, it is claimed that Antonio Illustrimo was raised for a while in Sulu, hence the adoption of the Tausug word kalis.  What I was trying to illustrate before, that while kalis and kris are spealt differently, in this sense they refer to the same thing, and will be pronounced the same.  How you got fixated on attributing everything back to Tagalog I am not sure.

the connection to Tagalog was a mere offer of perspective, my point was that a word can be the same in two languages (if indeed KALIS came from another language) and yet be totally different in meaning.

now for the interesting part, you've now committed to one ethno-linguistic group.  and why you chose the Tausugs is beyond me, having already outlined that one of my teachers in Mindanao was part Tausug.
the word KALIS was never used.  and to stretch it and say, "well, it kinda sounds like KRIS" is totally absurd, because it DOESN'T.  are any of the BAKBAKAN members Tausug? because i seriously doubt any are, if they go around saying KALIS is actually KRIS pronounced differently.  and again the word KRIS carries alot of meaning for Muslim Filipinos, they will not go around mispronouncing it.

so, once again, KALIS is not KRIS.  and further, KALIS does not mean any sort of sword in Tausug (i invite you to speak to any Tausug, or Maranaw, or Magindanaw, or Yakan about this word, and they'll say the same).  so, you need to go back to drawing board on this one.

[Question Everything]

P.S.

And please don't say, KALIS is pronounced KRIS.

[Bored]

Question Everything, I do not know why you are dodging the question.  Are you saying Majul's work is wrong?  In the glossary section of his seminal work, Muslims in the Philippines, it lists the word kali as being a Tausug corruption of the word Qadi.  Am I correct in understanding you, that he is wrong in this attribution?

As for the Kalis Illustrimo, they attribute their Tausug connections by Antonio Illustrimo's own words.  So are you saying you have proof that Antanio Illustrimo was incorrect in saying he was raised by Tausug's for a portion of his younger life?  What is your proof?  

You are also saying that kalis is not a sword in Tausug, so Cecil Quirino oowner/operator of Kris Cutlery and eminent weapons researcher is wrong in his catalogs calling different swords kalis?  Also the book Moro Swords by Robert Cato is again wrong in attributing the word kalis to the Tausug tribe?  You have said that your Tausug friends would argue against their usage, but I know both Cecil and Robert have travelled extensively in Moroland, and have a good many personal connections with Tausugs.  Why have they not been corrected?

Again I have listed names, book titles, etc...  as to where I am getting my information.  Beyond stating oh various un-named friends told me this, and speculation what is your proof?

[Spadaccino]

Folks,

I once read somewhere (I believe it was a Mark Wiley book or article) that the sword term kalis is derived from kilij, which is the Turkish word for a fairly short, heavy saber (as opposed to the longer, lighter shamshir of Persian origin).  I'm no linguist, but kalis and kilij seem to have a similar sound to them.  I'll see if I can dig up the reference.

Related to the above is the possibility of  direct or indirect contact between the Turks (and/or their allies) and the Muslim Filipinos.  We know that the Portuguese fought against the Turks and their allies in the Red Sea in the early 16th century; what about the Ottomans or people from their satellite territories assisting fellow Muslims?

Thoughts?

Peace,

David/TFS

[Question Everything]

Question Everything, I do not know why you are dodging the question.  Are you saying Majul's work is wrong?  In the glossary section of his seminal work, Muslims in the Philippines, it lists the word kali as being a Tausug corruption of the word Qadi.  Am I correct in understanding you, that he is wrong in this attribution?

if Majul is saying Qadi is being bastardized by Tausugs, and saying KALI in it's place, then he is WRONG.  these words, along with ULAMA (someone who is learned in islam), HADJI (someone who has performed pilgrimage to mecca) and IMAM (more or less an Ulama or/and Hadji, or any pious and religious muslim in a given group), these words are Arabic and are held in great regard because of there religious connotations.  I have yet to meet a Tausug who bastardizes these words.  then yes, Majul is Wrong in this regard (just because someone writes a book doesn't mean he is without flaw or his work in without flaw).

As for the Kalis Illustrimo, they attribute their Tausug connections by Antonio Illustrimo's own words.  So are you saying you have proof that Antanio Illustrimo was incorrect in saying he was raised by Tausug's for a portion of his younger life?  What is your proof?

my proof is in the language.  if Tausugs do say KALIS for Kris then i would be WRONG, if i'm wrong then why am I inviting you to inquire any knowledgable Tausug to verify this information? you do not speak Tausug, if i recall, so you need to verify this information.  if there was an English/Tausug dictionary then our little problem would be solved.  

as for Mr. Illustrisimo, i am not saying he is wrong in his autobiography. but, if he is saying that the Tausugs say KALIS for KRIS, then he is wrong in this regard.

You are also saying that kalis is not a sword in Tausug, so Cecil Quirino oowner/operator of Kris Cutlery and eminent weapons researcher is wrong in his catalogs calling different swords kalis?  Also the book Moro Swords by Robert Cato is again wrong in attributing the word kalis to the Tausug tribe?  You have said that your Tausug friends would argue against their usage, but I know both Cecil and Robert have travelled extensively in Moroland, and have a good many personal connections with Tausugs.  Why have they not been corrected?

now, you're appealing to two authorities i do not recognize (for all i know, these could simply be your high school buddies).  so, at this point you have to share either a book, or any sort of publication that contains KALIS as a Tausug sword of some sort.  then we can continue the discussion in earnest.

but, if the word KALIS is your strongest evidence for the title KALI as the "ancient" pure Filipino martial art, then i suggest you come up with a contingency 'evidence'.  it feels as though, that i'm going around in big circles with you.

[Question Everything]

P.S.

i was just speaking to a friend after posting the above.  i thought her point was good and might be able to offer light to our little discussion here.

the Tausugs do not say KRIS the same way an American would say the name "Chris", but rather they say it with a little short 'e' in between the K and R.  so, they say it KeRIS.  

if someone was at the predisposition of mistaking the letter R with the letter L, as the Japanese are fond of doing, then he or she might say KeLIS.  a Tagalog or a Bisaya might later spell this Kelis into KALIS.  this would then take us to our current disagreement.

[Sun_Helmet]

P.S.

i was just speaking to a friend after posting the above.  i thought her point was good and might be able to offer light to our little discussion here.

the Tausugs do not say KRIS the same way an American would say the name "Chris", but rather they say it with a little short 'e' in between the K and R.  so, they say it KeRIS.  

if someone was at the predisposition of mistaking the letter R with the letter L, as the Japanese are fond of doing, then he or she might say KeLIS.  a Tagalog or a Bisaya might later spell this Kelis into KALIS.  this would then take us to our current disagreement.

I was going to post on this matter but it seems you've surmised the same. The Indonesians say "Keris" as well. So someone with a heavy Filipino accent could be misunderstood. There's stories of elder FMAs using words that have been misunderstood by their students or outsiders. I remember Tatang Bo Sayoc would say "manny-ober" and he was actually saying "maneuver".

Thanks for the info on Mr. Castro. I'm always interested in any new information about the past. It may not discount the previous theories but always a good opportunity to investigate.

--Rafael--

[Bored]

Question Everything.

If you look in Wiley's book you will find that he referenced Robert Cato's work to make his.  Robert also was connected to various Moro scholars at MSU, such as Professor Madale, who is listed in his book.  Others who worked with him was Fr. Gabriel Casal, who at the time was director of the National Museum.  Robert Cato's book Moro Swords is the only book to this day that deals intensively with Moro Swords, and is a prised resource among most museum curators who deal with artifacts from Moroland.  

Dr. Cesar Adib Majul, a prominent Muslim leader, founded the Institute of Islamic Studies and became its first dean from 1974 up to 1980.  He had been a member of the UP faculty since 1948. From 1961 until 1966, he was dean of the University College, UP, and from 1969 until 1971, he was dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. He served on the Board of Regents of the University of Mindanao between 1961 and 1962. During the spring term of the academic year 1966-67, he was visiting professor at Cornell University.  Prof. Majul received the Republic Heritage Award for "the most outstanding contribution to Historical Writing during the period from May 1, 1960 to April 30, 1961," as well as the First Prize in the Biography Contest on the Life of Apolinario Mabini in 1964. From the University of the Philippines, he received the Distinguished Scholar Award in 1968.  He is hailed by various Moro groups as the pre-eminent voice in Moro studies.  If you read any book written about Moros, that has been written after his work, you will find in the bibliography his book.

Kalis is spelling, talking about arbitrary spelling patterns, why you are fixated on kalis as spoken with an American accent I am not sure.  Look at the various spelling of Iranun, it is also found Illanaon, llanaon, etc...  The more you write, the more I doubt that you speak any filipino dialect at all.  Also, if you did, you would know that the various dialects can have extreme differences, and being able to speak one or two doesnt make you expert on all.  Maguindanao, Tausgug, and Maranao are vastly different dialects, and to draw conclusions about all of them, with only having true experience with one or two, is hardly scholarly.

For someone who claims to have been raised in Mindanao surrounded by Moros, and to have gone to UP, you are very ignorant of seminal works, basic spellings, etc...  As well as various professors in the field in UP and MSU.  Also, I find it amazing that some white guy can claim to be able to slip between various christian and moro groups so easily, and yet be so ignorant of tensions between these groups.

I am also concerned about various facts you have raised in previous posts.  Why you claim the Pulajan movement, also known as the Dios-dios cult, spread beyond Leyte and Samar, is beyond me.  Especially when you go as far as saying the spread to Negros and Panay.  A good source for this little studied movement is Muddy Glory by Russel Roth.  They were a uniquely Waray movement.

Also, I do not know why you attribute Antonio's Illustrimo's story as leading him to Mindanao, when clearly in Wiley's book Philippine Martial Culture, it attributes his stay to Sulu, going as far as to name the Sultan who was his patron.

Also, I do not know why you claim Mckenna's work is proof that the US left Moro culture intact?  If you properly read Mckenna's work, it is a case study dealing with non-hegemonic groups in resistance movies, highlighted through his field work in the Cotabato slum Campo Muslim.  The whole basis of his claims is based on the fact that the US did significantly alter Moro culture, hence his focus on leaders that abandoned traditional culture in favor of cooperation with the US, such as Datu Piang.  

As for asking Tausug friends, I know many, including Royals, who have known these various authors, and have approved their work.

What is your story, for one who claims to be so knowledgeable, and yet to have gotten so much wrong?

[Bored]

Movies in the previous post is a mistake, and should have been movements.

[Question Everything]

Question Everything.
If you look in Wiley's book you will find that he referenced Robert Cato's work to make his.  Robert also was connected to various Moro scholars at MSU, such as Professor Madale, who is listed in his book.  Others who worked with him was Fr. Gabriel Casal, who at the time was director of the National Museum.  Robert Cato's book Moro Swords is the only book to this day that deals intensively with Moro Swords, and is a prised resource among most museum curators who deal with artifacts from Moroland.

when you spell KALIS K-A-L-I-S, people will pronounce it KALI with an S.  i will go with Sun Helmet on this, that KALIS is just a bastardization of the word KRIS.  basically, the correct word as Tausugs speak is KeRIS.  so, we got that out of the way.  KALIS then is a very WRONG spelling of KRIS.  which means there is no connection to KALI was you practice and pronounce it.

Dr. Cesar Adib Majul, a prominent Muslim leader, founded the Institute of Islamic Studies and became its first dean from 1974 up to 1980.  He had been a member of the UP faculty since 1948. From 1961 until 1966, he was dean of the University College, UP, and from 1969 until 1971, he was dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. He served on the Board of Regents of the University of Mindanao between 1961 and 1962. During the spring term of the academic year 1966-67, he was visiting professor at Cornell University.  Prof. Majul received the Republic Heritage Award for "the most outstanding contribution to Historical Writing during the period from May 1, 1960 to April 30, 1961," as well as the First Prize in the Biography Contest on the Life of Apolinario Mabini in 1964. From the University of the Philippines, he received the Distinguished Scholar Award in 1968.  He is hailed by various Moro groups as the pre-eminent voice in Moro studies.  If you read any book written about Moros, that has been written after his work, you will find in the bibliography his book.

i am familiar with his work, but if he insists that Tausugs say KALI for QADI, as you've outlined, then he is very wrong.  this is why... the word QADI is arabic.  it is not transfered thru oral tradition, so you cannot say muslims are simply mispronouncing Arabic terms.  rather, the word is found in text form in the Qur'an, the Hadith, and other Islamic texts.  muslims are reading the word QADI as it appears on paper and reading it, as many Islamic scholars are very well versed in ARABIC.

when you go to the madrasah to learn how to read the Qur'an, if you consistently mispronounce the word QADI to KALI, i guarantee you, you will receive a thundering slap to the back of your head, to gently remind you that this is not how you pronounce the word.  much care is used when reading the Qur'an or the Hadith, because these are sacred text, the words of God and the interpretations and advice of the Prophet.

you, a non-muslim, a non-muslim filipino, someone who has never been to southern Mindanao, are assuming that Muslim Filipinos do not know their own religion. that they go around mispronouncing liturgical arabic words, for your sake.  Muslim Filipinos might not all be able to speak Fus'ha, the modern standard arabic used in news broadcasts, academia, and politics in today's middle east.  they might not be able to speak Lahjat 'Amia, the various dialects of arabic found in egypt, syria, iraq, the gulf, and morocco.  but, Muslim Filipino islamic leaders are knowledgable of the liturgical classical Arabic found in the Qur'an.

for you to assume that KALI can be interchanged with the word QADI, just so you have some sense of connection to the Philippines, justifying your own personal use of the word KALI, is just wrong.  you're basically stating that Muslim Filipinos go around mispronouncing words found in the Qur'an.  once again, KALI isn't another way of saying QADI.

I am also concerned about various facts you have raised in previous posts.  Why you claim the Pulajan movement, also known as the Dios-dios cult, spread beyond Leyte and Samar, is beyond me.  Especially when you go as far as saying the spread to Negros and Panay.  A good source for this little studied movement is Muddy Glory by Russel Roth.  They were a uniquely Waray movement.

i've already offered two resources on this, namely Mr. Ileto's and Mr. Mojares' book. go read, and stop embarrassing yourself. this whole ad hominem attacks are very amateurish.

Also, I do not know why you attribute Antonio's Illustrimo's story as leading him to Mindanao, when clearly in Wiley's book Philippine Martial Culture, it attributes his stay to Sulu, going as far as to name the Sultan who was his patron.

last time i checked, Sulu was in the region of Mindanao (as in... LUZON, VISAYAS and MINDANAO?)

Also, I do not know why you claim Mckenna's work is proof that the US left Moro culture intact?  If you properly read Mckenna's work, it is a case study dealing with non-hegemonic groups in resistance movies, highlighted through his field work in the Cotabato slum Campo Muslim.  The whole basis of his claims is based on the fact that the US did significantly alter Moro culture, hence his focus on leaders that abandoned traditional culture in favor of cooperation with the US, such as Datu Piang.

McKenna's work is not "Proof", it's just a mere resource.  it is by all means not Definitive and Complete, as i'm sure the author knows. i interpreted it based on my own readings and experiences.  two people can read one book and come out with completely different interpretations.  such is the beauty of books.  we can get bogged down with US Policy in Mindanao during the 1900s to the 1930s, but one must be reminded that there was no ONE "US Policy" in affect, but rather a combination of policies (i.e. the de jure policy from Washington, the de facto Military policy, corporate policy, etc...).  this argument can go on til the end of time.  so, let's return to our discussion about KALI...

basically, we've "solved" the whole KALIS dilemma.  it turns out it was only a stupid spelling error, someone prounced KRIS, KLIS, which became KALIS for some strange reason.

as for QADI being KALI, i've already broken it down for you.  but, don't take my word for it, you can ask any Muslim Filipinos, or any other Muslims for that matter, about the seriousness of mispronouncing words in the Qur'an.

got any more???

[QUESTION EVERYTHING]

OFF TOPIC:

For someone who claims to have been raised in Mindanao surrounded by Moros, and to have gone to UP, you are very ignorant of seminal works, basic spellings, etc...

which seminal works am I ignorant about?
is KRIS spelled KALIS, really so basic?

As well as various professors in the field in UP and MSU.

Majul is 'various professors'? go read my post about Islamic words over again.

Also, I find it amazing that some white guy can claim to be able to slip between various christian and moro groups so easily, and yet be so ignorant of tensions between these groups.

did i say i was ignorant of these tensions?  

as a matter of fact you surmising Muslim Filipinos go around misprouncing Arabic words found in the Holy Qur'an adds to this Muslim/Christian tension, because you do not even try to know.  this is the main reason of these tensions.

as for being white in Mindanao, go reread my post to Crafty Dog.  Only a Fil-Am can go into this subject with such ignorance.

------------------------
i've just cut you up, left and right, as if i was training with a child.  is that all you have?

pity...

[Bored]

Question Everything you are one hostile person.  Ironically I am not defending the use of kali, but was only stating that the word was found in Majul's glossary, since you had so vehemently denied its presence anywhere in the Philippines.  But apparently Professor Majul is wrong to state that it is found spelt in some sources that he referred to, according to you.  The various royal members of the Maranao, Maguindanao, and Sulu sultanates that opened themselves up to him, must have been ignoring his various mistakes, since a white mormon like you could so easily pronounce Majul's work as wrong.  Considering, that Majul pored over various period texts, including Saleeby's groundbreaking inroads into the Royal Tarsilas of the Sulu sultanate, as well as various translated works, from the Dutch and Spain, it is not suprising spellings vary.  But your lack of recognition of this phenomena, as well as your apparent lack of recognition that such occurences are common on work dealing with Moro studies, have caused me to question your own expertise in the matter.  I have provided names of scholars, and sources.  Do you want me to provided page numbers and quotes?  Saying, that this is how things are now, doesnt reflect how they were 100 years ago, something which if you actually read Mckenna's work, you would understand.

As for stating the Sulu archipelago is part of Mindanao, for someone so familiar with Moro groups, I am shocked to see this claim.  All the Tausug's I have met have been proud of their historic/cultural difference from their Mindanao brothers in faith.  The whole difference between the two is highlighted in the tensions between the Tausug dominated MNLF and the Maguindanao dominated MILF (again something you should know if you read Mckennas work).  Your misunderstanding of this, again leads me to question your understanding of the world you claim to have grown up in.

Also, your lack of citation which verges close to a phobia, unless your education was substandard, is appaling for someone who claims to come from an academic background.  You overly rely on hear-say and conjecture.

Anyways, as for the kali debate, I agree that realistically anyone drawing a claim between kali and the spelling of kalis, is basing this connection on mere arbitrary spelling connection, versus any real substantiated linguistic connection.  Also, Qadi as judge, even though found in the glossary in derivative as Kali, would have no connection to martial arts in whatever vaguest sense.  But as to why you decide to attack everyone who posts anything on this post, and yet refuse to back up your claims beyond saying this is what  repeating claims of hear-say and long-winded conjecture is beyond me.

[Question Everything]

Anyways, as for the kali debate, I agree that realistically anyone drawing a claim between kali and the spelling of kalis, is basing this connection on mere arbitrary spelling connection, versus any real substantiated linguistic connection.  Also, Qadi as judge, even though found in the glossary in derivative as Kali, would have no connection to martial arts in whatever vaguest sense.

this was basically the admittance i was looking for from you.  having said that our little tangent into the whole QADI/KALI connection and the KRIS/KALIS relationship has officially ended.  now, the question is whether you have anymore historical evidence to offer for the historicity of KALI?

as for mr. majul's glossary containing the word KALI. i've already outlined my reasons for its improbability, giving you the islamic context.  in the end, our point of departure in this subject is that one is basing his knowledge on experience, while the other is basing her knowledge on one man's book, having no experience nor cultural understanding to balance out the information provided in the book.  i could as easily ask how some Fil-Am, who knows nothing about Islam, has never been to Southern Mindanao, speaks no muslim dialect, yet has read a few books about Mindanao, speak so authoratively about Mindanao.  i would much rather get on with the KALI discussion.

as for the whole Sulu/Mindanao issue, i can as easily attack your constant use of the word "Moro" and "Moroland" (as i'm sure you know this is a term hated by Muslim Filipinos).  but, this would be a great waste of time on my part.  further, if i am not mistaken when i mentioned Mindanao regarding Mr. Illustrisimo's biography, it was because i did not know the specifics of this Mindanao story.  It was you who later added that he did go to Sulu.  Sulu, as far as i can recall, officially, is still part of Mindanao.  i don't recall it ever being Luzon, Visayas, Mindanao, and Sulu (they'd have to add an extra star on the flag).  we can argue more about this but it would be an exercise of idiocy.

there was a lack of citation, because there was nothing to cite.  all the above i've stated can be verified in your local Mosque, and through your Tausug friends, if you choose to do so.  unless you can read Arabic, or have an English/Tausug dictionary, citations were basically useless in this particular discussion.  (although book titles were offered for the other informations i've posted prior)

with that said, having closed that portion of the discussion, do you have any other theories as to how KALI sprang from the bossom of ancient past, into today's world as the 'pure', 'ancient', filipino martial art? if not, i would like to go on with my point.

so far, we've had Kamut Lihok, the Hindu Goddess Kali, Kali is found in Mindanao (somewhere), the Code of Kalantiaw, Kali is from Qadi, Kalis is pronounced Kris, and oh yeah, the syllable KA is important.  and the list goes on... yet, still no rational reason for the word.

[another bored guest]

As for stating the Sulu archipelago is part of Mindanao, for someone so familiar with Moro groups, I am shocked to see this claim. All the Tausug's I have met have been proud of their historic/cultural difference from their Mindanao brothers in faith.

Well, in this case then we (from regional groups) would not want our distinct art named Arnis and/or Eskrima be associated with the wherever whatever regional group this Kali art or name or whatever that Fil-Ams are propagating came from. We have a clear and distinct culture and we are proud of it.

From a nationwide perspective, we do not want any MAPHILINDO terms or Madjapahit martial arts either. It is just tantmount to classifying Karate,Aikido, Taekwondo, Hwarangdo, Choylifut, Hunggar, Shaolin, Kempo, Wutang, etc as JA-KO-NA Kung-Fu(Japanese, korean, China).
It is just not correct. We Filipinos(born and raised - and Im not talking about those who have migrated when they were naive teenagers) are proud of our own distinct culture from the rest of SE Asia. Some people blame the Spaniards conquistadors for burning evidences of our roots, well I guess some Fil-Ams and Americans have been guilty of something similar by re-writing history without any proper research and is denying our future generations of a proud distinct culture.

[Question Everything]

people are free to name their art anything.  Balintawak is a street name, Lameco came from Largo, Medio, Corto, Doce Pares came from a popular traveling play, eskrima came from the Spaniards, and the list goes on.

all have a source and meaning.  the difference with KALI is that it is arrogantly promoted as the historic title of the ancient art of the Philippines, yet this title-as we've all seen--has no source.

MAPHILINDO, JAKONA, are just mere fussion of words, it's nothing to get flustered about.

but, KALI is something we need to discuss. sadly, no one has stepped up with any reasonable explanation or justification for the use of this term.

[Bored]

Question Everything

I see now a pattern here.  You are working off of assumptions.  You assumed Illustrimo's connections were to Mindanao, without actually knowing his story.  You assumed I knew no-one from Moroland (and yes I will use this word, in the same way that I would use bangsamoro), but again you do not know who I am (though I now have a very good idea of who you are).  You also assume, I am just some fil-am who read a couple books, when nowhere in this thread have I listed my ethnicity or background.  All this in your strange attempt to disqualify anything that did not back up your claims 100 percent.

But, even in our strong disagreement on other matters, you are right, we do fundamentally agree, that the modern usage of kali is a modern phenomena with roots more likely in the US, rather than PI.  My own feeling on the matter, is like any other historic claim.  It is not the burden of the doubters to prove its validity, but those bringing up the claims.  In much of the same vein in which the code of kalantiaw was disproven by Scott, without historic basis kali claims lack reality.    

However, you vehement attacks on me, Majul's work, and plain mis-understanding of key texts, weakens you arguments against it.  It is quite easy to dismiss its appearence in Majul's work, as some writer's mis-interpretation, but to dismiss Majul as a whole, based on solely heresay, is hardly academic.  I am not interested in taking your arguments apart, but in strengthening them, beyond mere hearsay and assumption.

[Question Everything]

I see now a pattern here.  You are working off of assumptions.  You assumed Illustrimo's connections were to Mindanao, without actually knowing his story.  You assumed I knew no-one from Moroland, but again you do not know who I am (though I now have a very good idea of who you are).  You also assume, I am just some fil-am who read a couple books, when nowhere in this thread have I listed my ethnicity or background.  All this in your strange attempt to disqualify anything that did not back up your claims 100 percent.

Mr. Illustrisimo's connection to Mindanao was something i learned in this thread.  You provided the Sulu connection.  I see no assumptions there.  As for your ethnicity, your little knowledge of mindanao, etc. yes they are assumptions, educated guess if you will.  it's been said that if you do not fill the gap, someone else will fill it for you.  if you choose to be "anonymous", that's up to you. but more importantly, my assumptions of you are irrelevant to the KALI discussion.

My own feeling on the matter, is like any other historic claim.  It is not the burden of the doubters to prove its validity, but those bringing up the claims.  without historic basis kali claims lack reality.

   

i guess this is where we disagree.  if a person insists that KALI is the 'pure', 'ancient' title of the martial arts in the Philippines and do so arrogantly (which is done always in comparison to the spanish named eskrima), then he or she will be challenged.  people will ask for evidence.  and as we've seen, this evidence is rather slippery. without evidence, the people who use KALI will have to drop this 'pure', 'ancient' propaganda and admit the most realistic scenario, and admit that KALI began in the US.

However, your vehement attacks on me, Majul's work, and plain mis-understanding of key texts, weakens you arguments against it.  It is quite easy to dismiss its appearence in Majul's work, as some writer's mis-interpretation, but to dismiss Majul as a whole, based on solely heresay, is hardly academic.  I am not interested in taking your arguments apart, but in strengthening them, beyond mere hearsay and assumption.

the attacks on you, were of course, not personal, but a tool in polemics used to engage and enrage one's counterpart.  it made you do research.  it made the debate interesting, which otherwise would've been boring.

as for majul's work, if you reread my post i never attacked the rest of his work nor did i dismiss it as a whole, but rather i just addressed the QADI/KALI misprint.  which you dogmatically held on to without the ability to further analyze it, having no background in Arabic and having not lived in a Muslim neighborhood.  this placed you at a disadvantage.

as for "misunderstanding" McKenna's work once again.  i've already stated the complicated issues that aris when speaking of US Policy in Mindanao at the turn of the century.  these arguments too are found in the halls of academia.  we can argue more about this, but we'll basically get nowhere.  the fact of the matter is that muslims in mindanao stayed muslim and continued their culture, while the rest of the Philippines rode on the western bandwagon.  (sadly, when the westernized Filipinos descended upon mindanao, this very identity and their ignorance of the western system resulted in their marginalization) no one misunderstood anything, just different interpretations: you having never lived there, confined to books and i, who spent my childhood there, having been educated there... we will obviously come out from reading the same book with different interpretations.

But, even in our strong disagreement on other matters, you are right, we do fundamentally agree, that the modern usage of kali is a modern phenomena with roots more likely in the US, rather than PI.

it's good to know we are now on the same page on this one.

[Question Everything]

My own feeling on the matter, is like any other historic claim.  It is not the burden of the doubters to prove its validity, but those bringing up the claims.  without historic basis kali claims lack reality.

 

sorry, we're also on the same page on this one.  

[And another bored guest]

the attacks on you, were of course, not personal, but a tool in polemics used to engage and enrage one's counterpart.  it made you do research.  it made the debate interesting, which otherwise would've been boring.

Isn't this just another way of saying you are "trolling"?  Despite being the persistant sesquipedalians and the academic masturbation, why doesn't somebody get to the point and decide conclusively where this all stands?  In other words, get to the freakin' point or take it to private e-mail!

[Sun_Helmet]

[/quote]why doesn't somebody get to the point and decide conclusively where this all stands?[/quote]



Btw, the usage of 'KA'  may be linked to the usage of the Sanskrit, 'KHA'. For example 'khaDga' or 'kha Dgii' meaning ' with sword'.

'Khali' outside of the Goddess of Destruction is also the term used for the waving of the hand in traditional music depicting a void or emptiness. So it is a 'Hand Motion' but pertains to music, not anything martial.

I checked around and 'Khalis' in Persian means 'pure and pious' so that doesn't link up with the Filipino sources.

--Rafael--

[burnsson]

'Khali' outside of the Goddess of Destruction is also the term used for the waving of the hand in traditional music depicting a void or emptiness. So it is a 'Hand Motion' but pertains to music, not anything martial.

anyway, it sounds good!

 


btw, while practicing fma footwork i mostly feel like i'd dance.

[Anonymous]

Isn't this just another way of saying you are "trolling"?  Despite being the persistant sesquipedalians and the academic masturbation, why doesn't somebody get to the point and decide conclusively where this all stands?  In other words, get to the freakin' point or take it to private e-mail!

if you can't hang with the big dogs, meaning you are unable to contribute anything significant (except for saying 'troll' repeatedly, like a retarded child), then just sit back and read thru the good info, or go play basketball, or go train.


--------------------------
as for Sun Helmet's discovery of Khali, this is very good info, which also takes us away from Mindanao and back to the Bisayan Kamut Lihok.  if you can provide more info on this, we'd really appreciate this.  movement, whether martial or dance is still very much related. keep at it, guys, we'll figure this out one way or another.

[And another bored guest]

if you can't hang with the big dogs, meaning you are unable to contribute

-Wow.  What big dogs?  I didn't know there was any.  Are you one?  Must be something to be in such an exclusive club of one's own grandiosity.

 anything significant (except for saying 'troll' repeatedly, like a retarded child), then just sit back and read thru the good info, or go play

-It sounds like you like picking on such children.  There were people with that kind attitude that, also, wanted such children euthanized in gas chambers or locked up in institutions.  Nice going there with the name calling and all.  You've shown your true colors.

-Just calling it like I see it.  You already admitted your trolling behavior.  I just wanted to confirm it's accuracy.  Thanks.  Inciting people emotionally in a debate is bush league.  Try using FACTS.

 basketball, or go train.

-I sense some passive aggresiveness there.  You really should do something about that.  Interesting you are dispensing advice that you should follow yourself instead of doling it out to those who are not asking for it.  What god made you an authority?

 we'll figure this out one way or another

-Stop getting everybody else to do the work to validate your insecurities of your knowledge.  If you are so learned like you claim, put out the sweat yourself to prove your own postulations and opinions.  Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are wrong.  Do the research and present FACTS.  Crafty Dog already indicates that this debate will never cease because historical evidence is not conclusive.  Why can't you let it go?  Amazing.  Some people just don't get it.