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Messages - DougMacG

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I wonder what G M and others speculate happened, Somali born cop shot white Australian woman for no apparent reason.
See startribune or powering.

Very powerful thoughts Marc.

Use RICO Law on Deadly Street Gangs

Kind of an obvious answer; hard to believe we aren't doing this already.  Great article IMO.


Heather MacDonald: Crime, Not Incarceration, Eroding Opportunity

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Punong Guro Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
« on: October 19, 2015, 07:41:45 AM »
Congratulations Crafty, very impressive organization you have built.

Martial Arts Topics / Prayers go out to former Pres. Jimmy Carter
« on: August 31, 2015, 03:38:13 PM »
I have been hard on him for being a failed President but unlike many politicians, he actually is and was a good man and deserves all of the best for health and comfort in these difficult times.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Crime and Punishment
« on: May 12, 2015, 08:05:49 AM »
In a world where there are cameras everywhere and in a part of this world, prisons, where people already have limited rights of liberty and privacy, how does an inmate knock up four young, female prison guards?  Doing it on your own time ought to involve waiting until he gets out.  Yes, the pay scale should be high enough that most wouldn't want to lose their job.

I would optimistically think that the publicizing of this story would cause reforms.  It is quite a large financial setback for a private firm to lose a contract like this.

I wonder if the problem is not the private management but the government sector rules placed on them that enables this.  My initial thought is to make cells smaller, bars thicker and punishments harsher until problems like this go away.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer and Daily Expression of Gratitude,
« on: December 24, 2014, 11:23:57 PM »
Merry Christmas, Peace and Good Tidings, everyone!   :-)

Here's the facts as I currently understand them to be:

Local merchants (all or most black?) went to the police station to complain about 6'3" 350 pound Garner (31 arrests to his credit) causing problems in front of their stores and driving away business.   The squad sent was led by a black female sergeant sent by a black precinct commander.

In the footage we have all seen repeatedly I am not seeing ANY "chokehold" at all.  I see a basic "over/under" as part of a team takedown.  

As far as the numerous times Garner says "I can't breathe" goes, a) people being arrested say excrement all the time (You're breaking my arm!  You're killing me! etc) b) if he can't breathe, he can't talk.  Bottom line, readily understandable that the cops blew this off.

Coroner's report shows he was seriously overweight, diabetic, and asmatic.

For me an easy call that the police acted correctly and that the racial pandering has begun.   AG Holder has announced an investigation and the President has already blathered about uneuqal justice.  Somehow this goes unnoticed

I like Crafty's take on this.  I was disturbed to see Charles Krauthammer call the Grand Jury verdict incomprehensible.  I have not viewed the video.  Good point that if you can hear him on audio/video saying he can't breathe, then he is breathing.  The law against selling untaxed, loose cigarettes is a whole, other issue.  I have pointed out many times that no one knows how many laws a simple lemonade stand is breaking.  This takedown was because of resisting arrest.  They could have used mace, stun gun,or  taken him down in other ways that also could have resulted in death, if it was because of his condition,  A black captain ordered a black sergeant to arrest him.  Blacxk store owners too?  This isn't racial.  You simply don't resist arrest.  When a cop is wrong, we have a system for that.  When a law is wrong, we have a system for that.  In a libertarian state, if it was legal to sell an untaxed product, it still would not be legal to block public access to someone else's business to do that.  That was the complaint that started this, as I understand it.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: November 25, 2014, 04:37:03 PM »
"Attack a police officer and bad things will happen to you."

  - Agree. Attacking an armed cop is beyond stupid in so many ways.

"Plenty of evidence that corroborates the witness statements that this was a lawful use of force."

  - I agree.  It was a very credible statement that the officer believed if he took another hit he could be knocked out or killed. 

My question, if we had the film of this and watched and studied it and were assigned to train a group of officers tomorrow how to handle the same set of circumstances next time, is there anything we would ask an officer to do differently?

I wonder what law enforcement people here think of the actions of the officer, as we know them, in this strange incident.

It is some kind of an ego or I dare you thing for pedestrians to intentionally compete with cars for space in a street, with sidewalks available on both sides and no doubt a law or two against blocking traffic.  For Brown, the obvious thing to do would have been to move over, at least when confronted by the police.  That isn't what happened here.  In this case, the officer spoke to them, perhaps with sarcasm.  Brown swore at him and walked on, according to this story.  Wilson called for back up and pulled out to block and confront them.

At the point where they walked on, we might all say in hindsight, the rest wasn't worth it.  But isn't that when an area becomes, what they call in other countries, a Police no-go zone?

It started with a simple request — "will you just walk on the sidewalk?" Forty-five seconds later, Michael Brown lay sprawled on the street, shot dead by a police officer who had never before fired his gun in the line of duty.

And as he drove away from the 18-year-old's body, heading to the Ferguson police station to wash Brown's blood from his hands and surrender his gun, all Officer Darren Wilson could think was, "I'm just kind of in shock of what just happened. I really didn't believe it."

Those were the words he shared with a grand jury.  And late Monday, Wilson's explanation of that deadly day in early August became public for the first time, in a small part of an enormous trove of documents released by St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch.

Thousands of pages of police interviews, autopsy reports and secret testimony — including Wilson's — were made public after McCulloch announced the grand jury's decision not to indict Wilson in Brown's death.

Until late Monday, Wilson's voice had remained silent, and the general story line went largely unchallenged: White police officer shoots unarmed young black man trying to surrender on a summer day in a St. Louis suburb.

But on Monday, Wilson's terror and panic were plain to see in 90 pages of his testimony before the grand jury on Sept. 16 and an 18-page interview with detectives that was recorded Aug. 10, the day after Brown's death.

Wilson was leaving an earlier call, having assisted the mother of a sick infant, when he saw Brown and another young man walking down the middle of the street, forcing traffic to slow and swerve around them. The police officer told the grand jury that he drove up, stopped his car and asked Wilson, "What's wrong with the sidewalk?"

In Wilson's account, it was all downhill from there. Brown swore at the officer, and the two men walked away. So Wilson called for backup, threw his police-issued Chevy Tahoe into reverse and cut the young men off.

As he opened the door, he testified, Brown slammed it shut on Wilson's leg. The officer told Brown to get back and opened the door again.

"He then grabs my door again and shuts my door," Wilson told the grand jury. "At that time is when I saw him coming into my vehicle.... I was hit right here in the side of the face with a fist."

The two men scuffled, Wilson said, and when he struggled to gain some control over the situation "and not be trapped in my car anymore," he grabbed Brown's arm. "The only way I can describe it is I felt like a 5-year-old holding on to Hulk Hogan."

Brown, he said, looked like a "demon."

I've never used my weapon before
- Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson on shooting of Michael Brown
When Wilson drew his gun from inside his car and told Brown to get back or he would shoot, the officer said, "he immediately grabs my gun and says, 'You are too much of a [coward] to shoot me.'"

Wilson said he pulled his gun because "I felt that another one of those punches in my face could knock me out or worse." Brown was bigger than the 6-foot-4 officer, and stronger, too. "I'd already taken two to the face, and I didn't think I would, the third one could be fatal if he hit me right."

Wilson ultimately got out of the car, and Brown began to run away. Then he stopped. And turned. And began to run back toward the officer. He made a fist with his left hand and reached under his shirt with his right. Wilson testified that he kept telling him to get on the ground. Brown didn't.

"I shoot a series of shots," Wilson said. "I don't know how many I shot, I just know I shot it."

Later, in front of the grand jury, Wilson was asked whether he had ever had to use excessive force in the line of duty before Aug. 9.

"I've never used my weapon before," he replied.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer for Victor Davis Hanson
« on: November 18, 2014, 09:17:57 PM »
Saddened to learn that the daughter of Victor Davis Hanson, author, educator, columnist, died on November 13 after a short illness.
Susannah Merry Hanson was 27.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: The Older Warrior
« on: November 10, 2014, 05:52:07 AM »
Thanks Spartan for the encouraging words!  We had a great tournament.  Did not leave with the title we wanted but won a first set off the team that gets to call themselves national champions.  I was hit by a car at 17.  Decades later, I get to compete with guys who played Division I college or pro tour back when I was working my way out of handicapped parking.  Now in 55 and over, everyone has physical limitations, though our opponents never seem to show it.  I couldn't be more lucky and grateful to still be at it.  We are fortunate to love a sport that can last a lifetime.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: The Older and Aging Warrior ?
« on: November 04, 2014, 06:42:48 AM »
Not Martial Arts, but...   I am heading out to compete in the USTA (tennis) over-55, national championships this week.  It is a team competition, all doubles, and all teams that have won their section from around the country.  At 58, I am working the delicate art of playing and training without over-training.  Part of our preparation was to play a competitive college team this fall. The old guys held their own pretty well.   ) 

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Hurricane Carter dies at 76
« on: April 23, 2014, 07:18:43 AM »
Rubin (Hurricane) Carter, Fearsome Boxer Wrongly Convicted of Murder, Dies at 76
Rubin (Hurricane) Carter, a star prizefighter whose career was cut short by a murder conviction in New Jersey and who became an international cause célèbre while imprisoned for 19 years before the charges against him were dismissed, died on Sunday morning at his home in Toronto, his friend and onetime co-defendant, John Artis, confirmed. He was 76.
The cause of death was prostate cancer, Mr. Artis said. Mr. Carter was being treated in Toronto, where he founded a nonprofit organization, Innocence International, to work to free prisoners it considered wrongly convicted.

One Youtube of Bob Dylan, the story of Hurricane:
Lyics linked in the NY Times story:

If even partly true, this was a very sad episode in law enforcement and racial history.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Know your rights when the police stop you
« on: March 06, 2014, 07:58:41 AM »
This seems to me like something that should be broadly disseminated for the good of all, LEO and citizen alike.
GM, does this pass muster for you?
I didn't see any glaring errors. I'll look it over in more detail and report back.

Under "Never" it says "Never Answer Questions"

This is written from a defense attorney's point of view to a future client.  Whatever the accused said is on the record and won't go away.  I would just add, on the other hand, there are times with law enforcement where you might want to be helpful. 

Late night police stops around here for minor infractions, tail light, rolling stops, etc. are aimed at finding something else, drunk drivers in particular.  IF you have had nothing to drink and have nothing else to hide, being cooperative seems like a better strategy than saying I don't have t answer that.  Not consent to a search, but to answer their questions hopefully shows your sobriety quickly so they can get on with their next stop.

I had one encounter with law enforcement that comes to mind; it was not a police stop but a criminal investigation of sorts.  I was leaving my office to meet with the Mpls Fire Chief about an apartment building fire when my insurance adjuster warned me on the phone that as owner of the building with an insurance policy in force, I was their first suspect.  I was shocked; that is ridiculous!  I was a thousand miles away when it happened and I can prove it.  Then I thought through that excuse and realized that sounded exactly the same as the alibi they would hear if I had arranged the fire.  So I got focused on being extremely helpful and forthcoming in helping them solve the crime.  With my keys I got them into units where the tenants would not let him in.  Answering everything and then some sure seemed like a better strategy than acting guilty, but only I knew I was innocent and that no evidence could be discovered that would point to me.  (Now I self-insure.)

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizen-Police interactions
« on: February 21, 2014, 08:56:40 AM »
OK.  Not arguing in what follows, just looking to explore where this leads.

Is it fair to say that we both know that as a practical matter an officer can make up a reason, before or after, for the stop?  Thus as a practical matter does the standard become the police can demand ID of anyone at any time.

What if a person does not have ID with him?  May he be searched for ID?  Fingerprinted?  Arrested?

When police 'make up a reason', I think we all can agree justice is undermined. 

Laws are different for operating a motor vehicle on a public street than for just existing, or being somewhere.  I sometimes don't have ID when driving, even though it is required.  When pulled over, they already know I match the photo and description of the person who owns the car, and they know my record, warrants, etc.  Police are also doing more and more with 'shooting' license plates without a driving infraction to look for legal or criminal issues with the vehicle, owner or driver.

I would not carry a wallet for just walking and maybe just a credit card or a bill if I was planning to buy something on the walk.  I wonder if facial recognition software will change the ID and fingerprint question of the innocent person looking suspicious to law enforcement.  I assume that if you are out in public they believe they have the right to shoot security footage.  Can't they run checks that way - soon if not now?  Less intrusive in one way, but far worse perhaps in the potential for abuse.

There will always be a contention between the right to be left alone and a need for law enforcement to try to prevent things like a terror attacks before they occur.  Crafty, how would you like to see that balance struck?

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Police work is , , , different
« on: December 28, 2013, 12:13:05 PM »
I'm surprised it's illegal in Oregon.

Sometimes people think more clearly on drugs.  Like a drunk peeing off the sidewalk instead of wasting time looking for a restroom, this meth induced suspect allegedly only did what felt right to him at the time, "exposed his genitals and started masturbating at the bar".  On behalf of all the anything-goes liberals and libertarians, should we all be a little more tolerant?

Or as conservatives can we once and for all admit there are limits on behavior; we will have a few laws and enforce them. 

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer and Daily Expression of Gratitude
« on: November 11, 2013, 09:24:19 AM »
Happy Veterans Day to those who earned that distinction.

In my business, veterans can start at the front of the line - every day of the year.

First, I would point out the legal advice given in this thread is extremely valuable.  If someone is choosing to carry a gun (or any else of deadly potential), the question of exactly how things will play out if you use it needs they to be contemplated, in advance, to its conclusion. 

In all legal situations, don't screw things up any worse than they are before your lawyer can begin his or her work.  The discharge of your weapon in your hand for any reason outside of a gun range is most certainly a serious legal situation.
Please help me understand the idea of a DA being able to change the charges after testimony has been given.  Intuitively this seems unfair.

Bringing this excellent question forward.  Mark Steyn made the same point prior to the verdict:

In real justice systems, the state decides what crime has been committed and charges somebody with it. In the Zimmerman trial, the state's "theory of the case" is that it has no theory of the case: Might be murder, might be manslaughter, might be aggravated assault, might be a zillion other things, but it's something. If you're a juror, feel free to convict George Zimmerman of whatever floats your boat.

This is not right.  As Alan Deshowitz argues, for various reasons (child abuse?), this prosecutor should be disbarred.

GM, BD, anyone:
Please help me understand the idea of a DA being able to change the charges after testimony has been given.  Intuitively this seems unfair.
TIA, Marc

Mark Steyn today: "In real justice systems, the state decides what crime has been committed and charges somebody with it. In the Zimmerman trial, the state's "theory of the case" is that it has no theory of the case: Might be murder, might be manslaughter, might be aggravated assault, might be a zillion other things, but it's something. If you're a juror, feel free to convict George Zimmerman of whatever floats your boat."

Marc,  I cannot answer the question legally but agree with you it seems totally unfair to ask a jury to convict on a change not made by the police or prosecutor PRIOR to the trial.

Meanwhile the first half of 2013 shootings map in just one neighborhood of Chicago goes mostly unnoticed:

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Self-Defense / Zimmerman race trial
« on: July 10, 2013, 10:28:51 AM »
72 more shot and 11 more killed in Chicago over the holiday weekend.  Black on black crime for the most part.  No coverage to speak of.  Some of the rare coverage said violent crime was still down from last year in Chicago.  Lower violent crime than last year in Chicago is not exactly the gold standard of safe neighborhoods. 

Was the Zimmerman show trial ever about anything other than race?  Trayvon was black.  People thought Zimmerman was white, though he is Hispanic and 8 times more black than Elizabeth Warren is 'native'.  A media outlet doctored a tape to make the 911 call sound racial, when all he did was answer a question of what race the man was.  People went nuts, demanding prosecution and got it.  It was overcharged at 2nd degree murder.  That is what it would be if he shot him when when he first saw him, not as the result of a fight and getting his nose broken. 

There is no question in my mind that Zimmerman's claim self defense constitutes more than reasonable doubt to the charge, if not truth.  Zimmerman did not set out to shoot him.  He followed him and called 911 instead.  More likely from what we hear about the testimony, Trayvon started a fist fight and was winning it against a guy who had a gun.  Bad choice.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Esquire argues for conviction of Zimmerman
« on: June 28, 2013, 04:33:25 PM »

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman committed 2nd degree murder?  I don't see it.  Others may be following this a lot closer than me, I look forward to comments and observations.

My thoughts:  Let's assume the deceased, Trayvon, was up to nothing sinister.  Even if he was scoping out homes for invasion, that doesn't warrant anyone shooting him.  Zimmerman I think is a self appointed neighborhood watch volunteer with a chip on his shoulder, a wannabe cop without the training or disposition for it, upset about what isn't being done to stop the problems, even though there was a recent arrest.

Zimmerman was sick of people like Trayvon before he met him.  By the time they were fighting, Trayvon no doubt was not liking Zimmerman either, or his attitude. I assume we don't get to know exactly how the fight started, but at some point it was Trayvon on top of Zimmerman pummeling him.  Zimmerman had plenty of injuries to corroborate that part, even if he was the one who provoked the fight.

Two guys are fighting and the one who is inflicting injuries at the end, ends up getting shot.  I see stupidity,  but I don't see murder.  2nd degree murder is the crime if Zimmerman had just shot him in the first place.  This was a fight with no proof of who struck first.  The injuries make self defense look plausible, even if he had foot in mouth, tough guy rhetoric in police interviews.  The legal question is whether Zimmerman waived his right of self defense when he chose to follow, and perhaps provoke a fight.  I would say he didn't.

If just shooting is what he was intending, why did he call the police?  If he intended to shoot, why would he have gotten engaged in a fist fight first while carrying a loaded gun?  Why get your nose broken if you are carrying a gun intending to kill.  Seems to me that by fighting, he was trying not to kill him with a gun, at least part way through the encounter. This was a stupid, avoidable fight that ended badly.  I don't take Zimmerman's side at all.  But I don't see this as murder beyond reasonable doubt.

What say others?

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Evil in Connecticut and elsewhere
« on: February 11, 2013, 07:53:54 AM »
The original story: "With almost no public announcement, Gov. Cuomo has put in place a policy that will send the mentally ill out on the street with no regard for public safety."

In the context of these mass shootings, there isn't much that can be said in flippant humor about that kind of public endangerment that is very far over the top, IMHO.

In Graham v. Connor they detained a guy for a short time for suspicious looking behavior an it turned out to be nothing malicious.

This site refers to both cases and lays out specific tests for legitimacy of LE using force:

I don't know of the facts you refer, but if police know a law abiding citizen is minding his own business, posing no threat, and then fire 60+ rounds at him, it is excessive by every test.  One round fired is excessive given only that information. 

In February 2012, Connecticut Senate Bill 452 (SB452) was put forward to remedy the fact that Connecticut was one of less than ten states in the U.S. to lack an "assisted outpatient treatment" (AOT) law.  (also known as 'involuntary treatment')

AOT laws allow a state to institutionalize a mentally ill person for treatment if the state has reason to suspect such institutionalization will prevent the individual from doing harm to self or others.

The ACLU said [the bill] would "infringe on patients' privacy rights by expanding [the circle of] who can medicate individuals without their consent." They also said it infringed on patient rights by reducing the number of doctors' opinions necessary to commit someone to institutionalization.

... What rights of kindergartners were infringed?

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Evil in Connecticut - deinstitutionalization
« on: December 17, 2012, 08:46:04 AM »
A fair point made about tone, but in his own succinct, biting way he entered into the discussion the unmentionable.  The article was scary and the mother was crying our for help.  Parenting as we know it doesn't work in her situation.  Being firm, loving and consistent doesn't address real mental illness.

I had the experience of seeing these warning signs including talk of murder-suicide.  I called the woman's doctor who said bring her to the emergency room.  I did, partially by tricking, against the will of an adult.  The doctor checked out the situation, prescribed a narcotic, decided she was no threat to herself or anyone else and released her.  She had one more incident (manic episode) that night resulting in a police call, was driven home by the police, then killed someone the next day. (Not with a gun.)  Less than 24 hours after pleading for help and denied I was proven right about the danger and was face to face with the same doctor who had determined otherwise.  He operates under an accepted set of laws and guidelines and probably followed them correctly.

Perhaps every family has some connection to mental illness and most (99.9%?) pose no threat.  I don't propose any change and I am a big advocate of individual liberty, but for as long as we extend total freedom to the troubled among us, saying things like "never again" or "can't tolerate this anymore" is either sheer ignorance or political duplicity.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Evil in Conneticutt
« on: December 15, 2012, 10:24:17 AM »
Shooting up a kindergarten is about as bad as it can get.

The Onion piece made as much sense as anything.

I watch news closely but turn away during the big disaster stories - if I can't do anything to help.

Exploitation for gun control began early:  I don't get what any of his proposals would do to prevent this.  He favors more rules at gun shows, not construction of a giant magnet.  More likely to prevent someone from stopping a shooting like this.  They always seem to happen in gun free zones.

Pres. Obama said: “We're going to have to come together and take meaningful action to prevent more tragedies like this, regardless of the politics,”  - I'm all ears.  He's had 4 years.  What is the meaningful action - TSA everywhere people gather?

The only answer I see is to put a closer watch and curtail the liberties of a very large number of people who show symptoms of any of a number of mental disorders, people who haven't shot anyone.  I don't know how that would work and it isn't what Pres. Obama and Mayor Bloomberg are talking about anyway.

I would like to never see the shooter included in the victim count.  I don't want to be put in the situation of blaming the victim.

News coverage I saw bothered me beyond the tragedy.  Did we really need real time viewing of parents learning they lost their precious little son or daughter?  Is this reality TV? 

It seems to me there is some element of copycat to these events, maybe tied to coverage and national obsession to watch, maybe not avoidable.

I wish whoever saw him first was carrying, and quicker than him on the draw.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer and Daily Expression of Gratitude
« on: August 21, 2012, 11:22:12 AM »
Grateful for seat belt, airbag and guard rail all in good working order.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Women SD issues
« on: July 24, 2012, 01:45:26 PM »
"He said the purpose of the motion had been to enforce the law that protects juveniles and their actions from disclosure."

Subject of a different discussion, but it is the offenders who are protected and future potential victims who are denied disclosure.  Something seems backwards there.  Justice prevailed because they didn't follow the law.

Very interesting post BD.

Martial Arts Topics / Elite athletes: Roger Federer at Wimbledon
« on: July 06, 2012, 10:57:12 PM »
Interesting recap below of a historic Wimbledon match today, 16-time Grand Slam event winner Roger Federer defeated current world number one Novak Djokovic today in 4 sets.  Serving at around 130 mph, Federer had 12 aces and no double faults.  Hitting at full power on the run for four hours against the best in the world, his total unforced errors were in single digits.  I didn't watch but that is an amazing performance.  Finals are on Sunday morning US time.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Crime and Punishment
« on: June 12, 2012, 07:21:38 AM »
 No mention of restoration of gunrights in most States and pro self defense laws being enacted.


Excellemt point PC.  Imagine the story if it was higher crime associated with states running wild with concealed carry.

Correlated? Yes.  Provable? Probably.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Self-Defense Law - Zimmerman
« on: April 24, 2012, 10:25:54 AM »
Interesting points from a Thomas Sowell race post requested to be copied here:
"The last line in most of the transcripts shown on TV was that of the police dispatcher telling Zimmerman not to continue following Trayvon Martin.

That became the basis of many media criticisms of Zimmerman for continuing to follow him. Only later did I see a transcript of that conversation on the Sean Hannity program that included Zimmerman's reply to the police dispatcher: "O.K."

That reply removed the only basis for assuming that Zimmerman did in fact continue to follow Trayvon Martin. At this point, neither I nor the people who assumed that he continued to follow the teenager have any basis in fact for believing that he did or didn't.

Why was that reply edited out by so many in the media? Because too many people in the media see their role as filtering and slanting the news to fit their own vision of the world. "
Also this:

"the repeated references to Zimmerman as a "white Hispanic." Zimmerman is half-white. So is Barack Obama. But does anyone refer to Obama as a "white African"?

All these verbal games grow out of the notion that complexion tells you who is to be blamed and who is not. It is a dangerous game because race is no game."

"There was no allegation of crazed behavior due to marijuana use; only the allegation of use. For Michigan CPS authorities, that was enough to remove the child...."

In MN it is a temporary 72 hour hold with an emergency court hearing set right away.  The criteria I don't know exactly but basically the the LEO must believe, have some verification and sign that the 'child is need of protective services' (a CHiPS petition).  Assuming there is some truth and verification to what the LEO wrote, the judge takes control and starts ordering the social services investigations  and the county attorney's office prosecutes the case.  If found guilty or true, the parent files a re-unite plan and the speed of that depends on all the factors.  Like GM says, they would re-unite with almost anyone.  Terminating parental rights has a statute, but they don't go there.

I'm sure it is simplest if you are guilty.  They find the parent a program, they get clean, got tested a few times and the state is not going to want to keep spending money on the case.  Proving yourself innocent is a whole different matter.  You would have a trial or hearing similar to a criminal hearing plus a criminal trial - I would assume it would take a simultaneous criminal charge, child endangerment etc. for this to continue.  If you are accused but innocent in all that, think how long that process could take.  They can hold your kid for all that time until you are cleared, because you are presumed guilty.

Yes, that would be a stresser for them to come for your kid for the wrong reasons but not a good time to commit a higher crime, threaten the police for example. 

Just my 2 cents, I agree with Crafty, this is outrageous IF it started over a false and fairly minor accusation. My guess was the whiff of pot was on top of the domestic threat which could have been significant, and the threat to police added another incident plus credibility toi the domestic threat. 

The domestic threat is another presumed guilty situation in this state, depending on gender.

On the other side, it is amazing in what lousy circumstances for a kid that they will not take action to protect the children.  This jurisdiction is Michigan so the precedent of what circumstances they will act on includes the insides of some homes in the inner city of Detroit with some pretty bad conditions (my opinion from an inner city landlord perspective).  I am quite a bit skeptical that this began over a reported whiff of pot. 

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: February 09, 2012, 10:00:12 AM »
"Or D*** advertised saying he will only accepted rental applications from females between the ages of 21 and 37?"

I think we should not go hypothetical on actual, traceable posters committing federal crimes they did not commit.  Thank you.  I've been wrongfully investigated and rightfully exonerated before.  The main difference between that experience and being accused of being a Jew in Nazi Germany was that at the end of my long, intrusive, humiliating ordeal, they let me live.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer - Sarah Burke
« on: January 11, 2012, 10:46:20 AM »
How about a prayer for super skier Sarah Burke, ESPY award winner for best female action sports athlete, who is in a coma after a training accident  yesterday.  Her talent and charm on display in this ESPN interview a few days ago:

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer and Daily Expression of Gratitude
« on: December 25, 2011, 10:25:18 PM »
Merry Christmas to everyone so inclined to accept that as an offering of peace, love and friendship.  I am grateful to be alive and to have family healthy and together for this tradition and celebration.  I am grateful for the Catholic Church for welcoming me in as a non-member with their celebration of positive messages: Joy to the World, Glory to God in the Highest, peace be with you, forgive those who trespass against us, and Hark the Herald Angels sing.  The music to me brings a beauty and emotion bursting with the pride of having my daughter and other family members among the musicians contributing to this important celebration for so many people.  The lights of Christmas help to illuminate what would otherwise be the darkest days of the year.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizen-Police interactions
« on: December 05, 2011, 09:41:36 AM »
Question for GM or others with law enforcement familiarity:

I am seeing police reports (in Minneapolis) that come just from officers performing a lookup on license plates.  It occurs to me that it is an automated process where they shoot a picture of the plate and the computer checks it for warrants, expired plates, current license, good or bad driving record etc. These are on the fly situations without any indication of any other lawbreaking.  Do you know if that is so?

Example: Received in my email today from police regarding a former tenant still claiming to live at our address:

"While doing directed patrol in the xth Pct, I observed listed vehicle, license xxxxx, being operated in the above area.  I did a routine check on the license plate, and this showed the registered owner was shown to have a suspended Mn driver's license.  Arrested Party: xxxx xxxxxx - 27/ Address: xxx xxxxx.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizens defend themselves/others.
« on: October 30, 2011, 10:24:39 AM »
Sounds to me like a simple case of self defense at the moment he made the shot.

GM: "Ok, let's now unleash the ignorant assclowns to discuss how the poor felon shouldn't have died based on biased media reporting. Oh wait, the shooter wasn't a cop."

The local media ('ignorant assclowns') were in fact out drawing sympathy for the sister: "The investigation ensnared Evanovich's sister...She had been with Evanovich the night he died, and according to their mother, held him in her arms as he took his last breath."

Very sad story except... she happened to be there as the accomplice, wielding the knife cutting the throat of robbery victim who also ended up with 2 black eyes. 

CBS affiliate draws more sympathy to the felon family, the deceased was the victim??

"MINNEAPOLIS (WCCO) — The mother of a robbery suspect who was shot and killed says her son was the victim.

A witness saw 23-year-old Darren Evanovich committing a robbery in south Minneapolis Thursday night. He chased Evanovich down and, after a confrontation, shot and killed him.

Evanovich’s family said the man who killed Darren was no hero.  “I was so scared,” said Mary Evanovich, the robbery suspect’s mother. “All I wanted was my baby, but I didn’t want it to be true.”

Evanovich is searching for answers as to why her son had to die.  “How can a person play judge, jury and executioner and God, who gave the person the right to be God,” Evanovich said.

Evanovich would not talk about the robbery or what role her son played in it.  “I can’t give no comments on that. I prefer not to actually talk about that part of it..."
The deceased armed robber was talking 9 days earlier to troubled youth about taking a different route.  Great role model (sarc.)

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizens defend themselves/others.
« on: October 26, 2011, 10:16:45 PM »
Thanks for those good replies and ideas. 

"If someone is trying to breach your door, I'm assuming that there is a degree of delay, allowing for a response, yes?" 

In this worst case scenario, no.  It was overwhelming force, door broken through, guns drawn, guns used - they shot the dog and held the gun to the woman, total surprise, no notice.

"Is it going to be enough time to allow law enforcement to respond? Probably not."

It was worse than that.  They didn't have a phone.  There wasn't going to be a call, much less a response, until going to a neighbor after the ordeal.  Very sad.
Offenses Recorded:  Burglary of Dwelling  -  Assault degree 2  -
Public Information:  Suspects kicked in the front door of the above address.  Suspects shot at V-1 and threatened V-2 with a gun.  Suspects are unknown.  Animal control responded.
Photos were taken and the memory card along with spent shell casings were property inventorie ...

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizens defend themselves/others.
« on: October 26, 2011, 03:28:28 PM »
GM.  Thank you.  My understanding in our state unless laws have changed is that he would have been guilty of murder had he shot the first intruders.  In the second instance the tenants were totally overpowered.  They broke through a solid 2+ inch deadbolted door.  What then, more deadbolts, thicker chains?  Okay.  Most of the things I do to go further with extra security to windows and doors, metal caging over windows for example, are against city code because they also block easy exit in case of smoke and fire.  It was obvious from the outside the tenants had a dog and that meant nothing to them either.  They shot the dog.  I like motion lights and have posted a range of other steps I take, but intruders this determined would appear to stop at nothing.  They certainly didn't care if anyone was home.

It is our equivalent of illegal immigration, but the people who do this in our bad neighborhoods come here from some very worse areas of some much worse, midwestern cities.  Instead of putting up a fence, we pay them to come here.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizens defend themselves/others.
« on: October 26, 2011, 02:29:20 PM »
In the case of the first incident, they were unarmed crack fiends taking copper pipes, more scared than my tenant when they were caught.  Shoot 'em?  In the second case it was the perps who were armed and took full advantage of the element of surprise at 6:30pm on a week night.  Would you really be sitting there armed, loaded and waiting as they barge in?  If not, it is the perps who would have likely found and taken the weapon and ammo after they shot the dog and dragged the girlfriend around the house demanding to know where the money was.  How does that help prevent it from happening again?

I suppose you could shoot 'em before they enter but today it was me coming up to the door so I don't think I will recommend that.

Anyone else?

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Citizens defend themselves/others.
« on: October 25, 2011, 09:47:09 PM »
GM: "Justice Dept: 12k cops out of work by year's end"

The majority of public monies go to transfer payments.  Apply a little pressure on spending and they cut necessary services instead - the ones that hurt the people most in retaliation.  Don't let them do that.

My tenant last night had their house and persons ransacked while home in a brutal search for money they didn't have.  Response time from the police 1/2 block off the major nerve center in a volatile inner city neighborhood was 15 minutes after the fact, of absolutely no use.  2nd forceable entry in 2 weeks - while home!  The tornado of June was a walk in the park compared to human terror.  What do I tell them?  Good people should leave the city?  Then who is left?

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Law Enforcement issues and LE in action
« on: September 27, 2011, 10:16:57 AM »
"I was working with a veteran officer when the Kobe Bryant case first hit the news, that officer made a statement assuming Bryant was guilty..."

Not sure how it ties to the current discussion, but I read the police interview transcript of Kobe at the time.  Seemed pretty obvious that he was guilty of adultery not rape.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Prayer and Daily Expression of Gratitude
« on: September 16, 2011, 04:02:35 PM »
It was late to start here and now starting to slip away, but I am grateful for another most beautiful and glorious summer.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: September 01, 2011, 09:25:44 AM »
Avoiding a complete shutdown is one of the advantages of the internet's decentralized design loaded with redundancies and endless, alternate paths - which our benevolent government would like to streamline for us.

"What happens if the internet itself goes off-line?"

That is something like the Y2K scenario; we were told that water and electricity would shutdown if computers went down.  We don't know exactly because it didn't happen then.  If all internet went down, the world we now know would stop for a moment and people would be forced to get up and walk out their front door to talk with other people.   :wink:
Excellent points by Tony.  The next generation raised with social media seem highly capable of staying organized. I'm still not clear on how you can broadcast all the right information to the right people without also informing the wrong people.

Espanol Discussion / Re: Venezuela Politica
« on: September 01, 2011, 08:42:34 AM »
"Venezuela can sell oil abroad in dollars and then transfer its currency reserves to gold"

Regimes of Venezuela, Iran and Russia are empowered by misguided U.S. policies that artificially drive up the price of oil and gold (just pointing out the obvious).

It is a no-win situation for the people of Venezuela but if the USA switched suddenly to pro-growth policies that started with major expansion of domestic energy production and combined sound fiscal and monetary policies it could simultaneously bring down the price of both oil and gold.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: September 01, 2011, 08:19:36 AM »
"...this point about cell phones and social media..."

I recall that the start of the Arab spring uprising in Tunisia was both triggered by crackdowns on social media and organized on them.

Martial Arts Topics / Unusual Conditioning technique: The Pod
« on: August 29, 2011, 11:29:08 AM »
Don't try this at home.  :wink:  I have an interest in high altitude training, this $75k pressurized capsule simulates something like that - allegedly for health and conditioning benefits:

Serbian tennis star Novak Djokovic hasn't earned his No. 1 ranking by taking the conventional road. There's his odd ritual of excessive ball bouncing before serves, which can break an opponent's concentration. There's his new gluten-free diet, which he's said has helped him feel stronger on the court.

Novak Djokovic and other athletes are using a secret weapon called a CVAC pod that they believe boosts performance by simulating high altitude.

Ever since last year's U.S. Open, Djokovic has been trying to improve his fitness by climbing into a rare $75,000 egg-shaped, bobsled-sized pressure chamber.

The machine, which is made by a California-based company called CVAC Systems and hasn't been banned by any sports governing bodies, is one of only 20 in the world. Unlike the increasingly trendy $5,000 hyperbaric chambers many professional athletes use to saturate the blood with oxygen and stimulate healing, the CVAC is a considerably more-ambitious contraption. It uses a computer-controlled valve and a vacuum pump to simulate high altitude and compress the muscles at rhythmic intervals.

The company claims that spending up to 20 minutes in the pod three times a week can boost athletic performance by improving circulation, boosting oxygen-rich red-blood cells, removing lactic acid and possibly even stimulating mitochondrial biogenesis and stem-cell production.

Djokovic is so convinced that the pod helps his game that during the U.S. Open, which starts Monday, he's staying (for the fourth year) with a wealthy tennis-trainer friend in Alpine, N.J. who keeps one of the machines on his property.

Djokovic has never mentioned the pod publicly before. He acknowledged using it for the first time last week during a sponsor event in New York after he was asked about it for this article. "I think it really helps—not with muscle but more with recovery after an exhausting set," he said. "It's like a spaceship. It's very interesting technology."

The pod, which is seven feet long, three feet wide and seven feet high with the lid open, looks like a cross between a tanning bed and the giant egg Lady Gaga emerged from at the Grammys. CVAC says its pod is different from other pressurized chambers on the market because it combines altitude pressure with cyclic compression (a combination some studies suggest is more effective than one or the other). Because the pressure, temperature, air density in the CVAC pod can be adjusted, the company says it enhances an athlete's ability to adapt to a range of conditions.

While pod users don't do much beyond sitting while they are inside (cellphone use is permitted), CVAC Systems chief executive Allen Ruszkowski says the treatment seems to have many of the same effects on the body as intense exercise. He claims that the technology may be twice as effective at helping the body absorb oxygen as blood doping—a banned form of performance enhancement.

Former U.S. Olympic wrestling coach Bob Anderson, motocross racer Ivan Tedesco and ultra cyclist George Vargas say they've used the pod and believe it helps. CVAC's Ruszkowski says a slew of other high-profile athletes use the Pod but often insist the company doesn't tell anyone, "because they feel it's a competitive advantage." Rock star Axl Rose owns a pod as well, according to his spokeswoman.

Martial Arts Topics / Re: Dealing with Social Breakdown (The UK riots)
« on: August 13, 2011, 09:32:41 AM »
"The way I read this statue, a neighborhood kid could come on to your property at night, steal your bicycle (theft during the nighttime)  and you could shoot him in the back as he pedaled (fleeing away) away to stop him from escaping with your property."

I don't know if the Texas law is being properly interpreted in the example but people reading that in other states should know you would face possible murder charges elsewhere in that situation.  The self defense laws of the 50 states were linked recently by Crafty.  Recovering the property by other means might include following him home in your car and call the police, if you had time to get your gun and shoot him. 

My view is that entering your premises day or night is more than a property crime.  An intruder with that kind of nerve can be presumed to be dangerous.

It is purely hypothetical anyway because if that it is the right of the homeowner to shoot the burglar, no one is likely to take the bike. 

The question posed is how to deal with property protection if guns/knives etc are not an option.  The hated camera surveillance after the fact seems to be one of the key tools. 

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